PIRA not guilty of war crimes - Gerry Adams

KeithAFC

SINN Fein president Gerry Adams last night described the IRA practice of killing and burying its victims in secret locations as a "huge mistake", but categorically refused to accept it was a war crime.

Speaking on RTE's 'Prime Time', Mr Adams appealed to anyone with information on people abducted and killed by the IRA between 1972 and 1986, and their bodies secretly buried, to come forward.

"I know it was a huge mistake by the IRA and a particularly sad phase of the conflict. It is one of the great unresolved, uncorrected injustices done by Republicans," he said.

"The IRA has publicly apologised for this and sought people to bring information forward. My focus is to give these families the Christian burials they deserve."

Mr Adams again denied having any involvement in the killing and disappearance of Belfast mother of 10 Jean McConville in 1972, who was abducted, killed and secretly buried by the IRA in Co Louth.

He again denied being a member of the IRA.

- Edel O'Connell

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/provos-not-guilty-of-war-crimes-adams-2668791.html

He can't be serious that the PIRA didn't commit war crimes? Plenty of examples to point to which say they did. I think this was on prime time or will be? I think it is disgusting from the leader of Sinn Fein to make such comments.

Joey the lips

I am not shocked you think it disgusting. Its clear your not a shinner or a republician. Judging from your comments in the past your not really neutral either. so i cannot see what type of discussion you are attempting to generate. But if you can i will agree with you if its fair.

For the moment I dont agree with you. I dont agree the IRA are guility of war crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

I however do not agree with what the IRA did. But at the moment i am convinced had i been a resident where they mainly operated from I would have agreed with them. Thank god i was not.

So can you elobrate i would be greatful as i too read the article and cannot understand where we are going.

sparks24

and the british would say the same thing it was a war, were blessed its over it could of being worse look at all the other conflicts all over the world

KeithAFC

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am not shocked you think it disgusting. Its clear your not a shinner or a republician. Judging from your comments in the past your not really neutral either. so i cannot see what type of discussion you are attempting to generate. But if you can i will agree with you if its fair.

For the moment I dont agree with you. I dont agree the IRA are guility of war crimes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

I however do not agree with what the IRA did. But at the moment i am convinced had i been a resident where they mainly operated from I would have agreed with them. Thank god i was not.

So can you elobrate i would be greatful as i too read the article and cannot understand where we are going.

The PIRA always claimed it was a war. Surely it is a war crime to kill innocent people and bury them and call them the disappeared. Isn't that what happened in the Bosnia and Serbia war? Obviously less extreme in terms of numbers but we have all seen the footage, take people away and shoot them and bury them.

BlaasForRafa

sparks24 wrote: »

and the british would say the same thing it was a war, were blessed its over it could of being worse look at all the other conflicts all over the world

I don't think that I could be accussed of being a shinner but I have to say that I don't think the British would say the same thing. I definitely don't think Thatchers government would have, they were quite clear in saying that what happened in the north was not a war, that it was a police action. The british were quite adamant that PIRA members would be treated as criminals and not prisoners of war and any that were caught were dealt with by the criminal justice system.

I watched the interview last night and it was clear that Adams was having to tread very carefully. I don't think he was as firm in condemning IRA crimes as he should have been but he did go further than he would have in previous years. I thought it was pretty pointless for the interviewer to get stuck on asking him about his leadership role in the IRA several times....the dogs in the street know that Adams was on the IRA army council so persisting with that line of questioning was kind of redundant.

Manic Moran

The first question is if it was a war or not.

If it was just a criminal internal security matter, then no, it was not a war crime, but it was a crime.

If it was a war, then the killing of a prisoner under their control (as Jean McConville appears to have been given she was taken first and then shot) is prima facie a war crime. This does not depend on whether or not the PIRA was correct in their allegation that she had been passing intelligence in her case.

The exact circumstances regarding the shooting would provide final details as to the legality of the action: It is legal to shoot enemy who are in the process of escaping, for example.

NTM

Sunnyisland

I dont know about the war crimes accusation, But imo there definitely crimes against humanity and the bodies should be given back to get a proper burial by there families.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Keith did he say the PIRA are not guilty of war crimes in general or just in relation to the "disappeared"

If its in general the most blatant and undeniable one would be Kingsmill

Sunnyisland

As far as I know most of them unfortunate people were accused of being spies & traitors against the republican movement,which in republican courts means death.

FUNKY LOVER

Here we go again,another ira bashing thread set up by none other than Keithafc.will

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

end in the same stupid argument,ughh I can feel the depression already,I'm bowing out!

Sunnyisland

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Keith did he say the PIRA are not guilty of war crimes in general or just in relation to the "disappeared"

If its in general the most blatant and undeniable one would be Kingsmill

I remember kingsmill and did not some south armagh republican force not claim responsibility for that, just saying in no way condoning it.

Sunnyisland

FUNKY LOVER wrote: »

Here we go again,another ira bashing thread set up by none other than Keithafc.will end in the same stupid argument,ugh I can feel the depression already,I'm bowing out!

Funky I would think I would not agree with any thing that keith says says, but some episodes of that conflict/war etc have to be answered. It is better for all of us now to try and show some compassion and let the republican movement be the first.

Wolfe Tone

I would be wary of debating in this thread as it appears that if one were to say that it was not a war crime or was justified etc in any way they will be banned.

Knight990

The entire situation, as has been said earlier, depends on the definition of the conflict - whether its a "war" or an "internal dispute", whatever the exact terms may be.

sparks24

All is fair in love and war and yes it was a WAR just move on lads both sides made mistakes, if the PIRA are guilty of war crimes so are the british government sure aren't we all friends now keith give it a rest will ya stop living in the past

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Sectarian attacks against civilians such as occurred at Kingsmill have to be regarded as war crimes.

Knight990

sparks24 wrote: »

All is fair in love and war and yes it was a WAR just move on lads both sides made mistakes, if the PIRA are guilty of war crimes so are the british government sure aren't we all friends now keith give it a rest will ya stop living in the past

Thing is, we don't get to decide whether it was a war or not. That'll take a long time to consider, I reckon.

PatricaMcKay

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Sectarian attacks against civilians such as occurred at Kingsmill have to be regarded as war crimes.

Any HARD evidence that was carried out by the IRA?

Or are you just going along with "educated" guesses by anti-Republicans?

KeithAFC

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Sectarian attacks against civilians such as occurred at Kingsmill have to be regarded as war crimes.

So would you regard the killings of these people who were buried as a war crime?

Terrontress

KeithAFC wrote: »

So would you regard the killings of these people who were buried as a war crime?

I think the expression 'war crime' legitimises their actions, including the slaying of a mother in her thirties, leaving her children to fend for herself. Actions undertaken by self-appointed gauleiters, including Gerry Adams amongst their number.

There are probably dictionary and legal definitions for 'war crimes', written by intelligent people behind desks. What the IRA did was sub-human, evil, immoral and it does not take a definition for that to be clear.

sparks24

Knight990 wrote: »

Thing is, we don't get to decide whether it was a war or not. That'll take a long time to consider, I reckon.

who decides then? some history book in a few more hundred years, whatever the outcome or whoever writes that book it will be another chapter and hopefully the last of the conflict between the two community's call it whatever you want or wait for someone to decide for you but i'll decide for myself it was a horrible nasty dirty war in which both sides did awful things

keith has the blinkers on for the shinners, im new to boards and i just said hear we go again he's always at it, it's pretty sad really

stalltheball

KeithAFC wrote: »

So would you regard the killings of these people who were buried as a war crime?

In the last nine months of the tan war, 57 people were "disappeared" by republicans. Where they war crimes?

KeithAFC

sparks24 wrote: »

who decides then? some history book in a few more hundred years, whatever the outcome or whoever writes that book it will be another chapter and hopefully the last of the conflict between the two community's call it whatever you want or wait for someone to decide for you but i'll decide for myself it was a horrible nasty dirty war in which both sides did awful things

keith has the blinkers on for the shinners, im new to boards and i just said hear we go again he's always at it, it's pretty sad really

Everyone here knows my political opinions and my politics. I don't think that is news to anyone. What is being discussed is Gerry Adams basically saying it wasn't war crimes, which some would say it was, perhaps even people who are Irish Republicans.

Wolfe Tone

Keith I dont see how it is fair for you to ask these questions when you full well know an answer will get people banned.

The only answer someone can give is to say it was wrong.

It's like groundhog day when it comes to NI threads in here.

Knight990

sparks24 wrote: »

who decides then? some history book in a few more hundred years, whatever the outcome or whoever writes that book it will be another chapter and hopefully the last of the conflict between the two community's call it whatever you want or wait for someone to decide for you but i'll decide for myself it was a horrible nasty dirty war in which both sides did awful things

keith has the blinkers on for the shinners, im new to boards and i just said hear we go again he's always at it, it's pretty sad really

I would think that at some point in the future, the United Nations might decide on what it was exactly. You are correct though, it was a terrible conflict with terrible things done by both sides.

KeithAFC

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Keith I dont see how it is fair for you to ask these questions when you full well know an answer will get people banned.

The only answer someone can give is to say it was wrong.

That is an interesting post Wolfe. I think you can give an honest opinion on here on what you would describe the conflict as. Surely the PIRA view was always against this sort of thing, so did some people in the PIRA movement actually break the rules within the PIRA? Who called the shots with these disappearances?

Its just basic questions because i am rather bemused by what Gerry meant on this.

dan719

sparks24 wrote: »

All is fair in love and war and yes it was a WAR just move on lads both sides made mistakes, if the PIRA are guilty of war crimes so are the british government sure aren't we all friends now keith give it a rest will ya stop living in the past

<snip> Not all is 'fair in...war', otherwise there would be no such thing as 'war crimes'.

Gerry Adams is nothing but a lying terrorist. He doesn't even have the decency to admit to his membership of the IRA, and the people of Louth should be ashamed for voting him into the dail. Tell Jean McConville's family to stop living in the past, when the man who supposedly ordered her murder now sit's in Republic's house of Parliament.

sparks24

KeithAFC wrote: »

Everyone here knows my political opinions and my politics. I don't think that is news to anyone. What is being discussed is Gerry Adams basically saying it wasn't war crimes, which some would say it was, perhaps even people who are Irish Republicans.

and you expect a currently sitting politician to admit to a war crime?
why so shocked? why cant you understand that

anyway as far as i know it hasn't being declared a war crime by the united nations and in my view it never will be because if they charged the ira they would have to charge the the british government too and i cant see how they would have evidence for that

Sunnyisland

dan 719 wrote: »

What a retarded comment. Not all is 'fair in...war', otherwise there would be no such thing as 'war crimes'.

Gerry Adams is nothing but a lying terrorist. He doesn't even have the decency to admit to his membership of the IRA, and the people of Louth should be ashamed for voting him into the daily. Tell Jean McConville's family to stop living in the past, when the man who supposedly ordered her murder now it's in Republic's house of Parliament.

I was hoping this thread would not slide into the usual anti sinn fein agenda,wishful thinking on my behalf,There were terrible things done in the six counties and beyond by both sides of the communities & others,It was not a one sided street.If people could answer the op question without getting into the usual tribal trenches it might help.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

The PIRA always claimed it was a war. Surely it is a war crime to kill innocent people and bury them and call them the disappeared. Isn't that what happened in the Bosnia and Serbia war? Obviously less extreme in terms of numbers but we have all seen the footage, take people away and shoot them and bury them.

Keith in fairness the state colluded with murderers such as billy wright in the murder of people based on their religion. The state helped with the murder of civilians, people were denied their rights based on their religion. The state shot unarmed men and lied about it. Do you think much people are going to care about what the other side were doing in response to that. The whols situation was messed up from the beginning. Attacks and sectarianism were based on fear and hate. Violence was always going to happen in response to state funded terrorisim.

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

Keith in fairness the state colluded with murderers such as billy wright in the murder of people based on their religion. The state helped with the murder of civilians, people were denied their rights based on their religion. The state shot unarmed men and lied about it. Do you think much people are going to care about what the other side were doing in response to that. The whols situation was messed up from the beginning. Attacks and sectarianism were based on fear and hate. Violence was always going to happen in response to state funded terrorisim.

But that wasn't the point. Gerry Adams thinks it wasn't a war crime with these murders of innocent people and buried them as the disappeared. If they saw it as a war, did they not commit a war crime?

sparks24

dan719 wrote: »

<snip> Not all is 'fair in...war', otherwise there would be no such thing as 'war crimes'.

Gerry Adams is nothing but a lying terrorist. He doesn't even have the decency to admit to his membership of the IRA, and the people of Louth should be ashamed for voting him into the dail. Tell Jean McConville's family to stop living in the past, when the man who supposedly ordered her murder now sit's in Republic's house of Parliament.

<snip>

i do not, never have, or ever will, support the shinners, gerry adams and the savage things the ira done during the war

the point i was making was that the awful stuff that happened during the troubles, both sides are responsible for what they did, but keithafc only has the blinkers on for the shinners and has no objective viewpoint about the troubles at all and the fog of war as they call it so i feel he is living in the past

and yes all is fair in love and war

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

But that wasn't the point. Gerry Adams thinks it wasn't a war crime with these murders of innocent people and buried them as the disappeared. If they saw it as a war, did they not commit a war crime?

If they did then they need to apologise for it but if a terrorsist force is waging war against the state that makes the law of the land then im not sure the law is valid anymore.

steddyeddy

dan719 wrote: »

What a retarded comment. Not all is 'fair in...war', otherwise there would be no such thing as 'war crimes'.

Gerry Adams is nothing but a lying terrorist. He doesn't even have the decency to admit to his membership of the IRA, and the people of Louth should be ashamed for voting him into the dail. Tell Jean McConville's family to stop living in the past, when the man who supposedly ordered her murder now sit's in Republic's house of Parliament.

That would be true if it were two states engaged in war however it was a terrorist organisiation ( I dont use that in a negative sense, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist eg the anc) engaged in war against a state engaging in illegal activities then Im sure all is fair in love and war.

michael999999

Did Bobby Sands not die so they could be recognised as political prisoners?

With people like you Keith the north will never move on!

KeithAFC

michael999999 wrote: »

Did Bobby Sands not die so they could be recognised as political prisoners?

With people like you Keith the north will never move on!

So it was a war crime then? In a war, im lead to believe you can't do that. I don't see the point of bringing up Bobby Sands as this is about the leader of Sinn Fein thinking it wasn't a war crime.

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

So it was a war crime then? In a war, im lead to believe you can't do that. I don't see the point of bringing up Bobby Sands as this is about the leader of Sinn Fein thinking it wasn't a war crime.

In fairness keith both sides commited atrocities whats wrong with calling the war a draw and moving on?

michael999999

michael999999 wrote: »

Did Bobby Sands not die so they could be recognised as political prisoners?

With people like you Keith the north will never move on!

Since you didnt get it the first time Keith, i have underlined the important bit for you!

KeithAFC

steddyeddy wrote: »

In fairness keith both sides commited atrocities whats wrong with calling the war a draw and moving on?

Of course and i understand that. Many loyalists did terrible things. No one can deny that. The point is if it was a war (from PIRA view), surely what they did was a war crime?

steddyeddy

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course and i understand that. Many loyalists did terrible things. No one can deny that. The point is if it was a war (from PIRA view), surely what they did was a war crime?

Well im not sure of the definition of a war crime (thats not a cop out I dont) if it is then they should apologise for it and in doing so ratifiying their view that it was a war.

charlemont

Unfortunately war is war and these things should never have happened but they did and we must accept it, it takes a lot to make people kill and the conditions were there for decades, At least Gerry Adams is trying to resolve these issues, Look at the Bosnian Serb leaders still acting like what they did was totally correct, They are incapable of learning from their mistakes due to their stubbornness, Adams seems to be a man who is constantly striving to learn.

sparks24

KeithAFC wrote: »

Of course and i understand that. Many loyalists did terrible things. No one can deny that. The point is if it was a war (from PIRA view), surely what they did was a war crime?

if it could be proven yes it was a crime and the protection of the good friday should not apply.

tell me this keith do you believe the british government are guilty of crimes during the troubles? i believe they are just as guilty as the ira

michael999999

By your reckoning Kevin Is thatcher guilty of a war crime for letting Bobby Sands die?

michael999999

Your not making much of an argument for your case Kevin!

Time to move on!

jhegarty

KeithAFC wrote: »

So it was a war crime then? In a war, im lead to believe you can't do that. I don't see the point of bringing up Bobby Sands as this is about the leader of Sinn Fein thinking it wasn't a war crime.

So you acknowledge it was a war ?

Liam Byrne

Leaving aside any possible agendas in this thread, I find it disgusting that someone who can't admit the facts sits in the Dáil.

Yes, there are other deluded pricks there like Ahern who don't believe they committed crimes.

Yes, despicable thugs from both "sides" sit in parliament in the North

But the standard of politician in this country should be better.

Wolfe Tone

dan719 wrote: »

What a retarded comment. Not all is 'fair in...war', otherwise there would be no such thing as 'war crimes'.

Gerry Adams is nothing but a lying terrorist. He doesn't even have the decency to admit to his membership of the IRA, and the people of Louth should be ashamed for voting him into the dail. Tell Jean McConville's family to stop living in the past, when the man who supposedly ordered her murder now sit's in Republic's house of Parliament.

You do realize she is the mother of a person who you would call a terrorist?

The media have a habit as portraying her as an innocent mother snatched up by the evil IRA and executed for no reason, or a blatantly false one such as helping a wounded soldier.

junder

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You do realize she is the mother of a person who you would call a terrorist?

The media have a habit as portraying her as an innocent mother snatched up by the evil IRA and executed for no reason, or a blatantly false one such as helping a wounded soldier.

So what was she then?

Wolfe Tone

junder wrote: »

So what was she then?

Brendan Hughes says she was a paid British informant.

junder

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Brendan Hughes says she was a paid British informant.

Proof?