Interesting programme on Magdalene Laundries on RTE Primetime tonight

gigino

Anyone see the very interesting programme on the scandal of the Magdalene laundries tonight on RTE ? It seems the UN have come down very heavy on those responsible for enslaving the women now.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0607/magdalene.html

Interesting that the 4 Catholic orders involved have been written to but have not responded. It appears the previous justice minister colluded in the foot dragging but the current government wants to get recognition for the survivors. The Fianna Fail government has the embarassment of having agreed for the taxpayer - you and me - to pay 90 % of the compensation in previous R.C. church abuse scandals....while the RC church as assets of 90 billion. It said the enslaved women in the laundries had to work 12 hours a day for the nuns, and they never received any pay then, and do not get a pension for same now either.

gimmebroadband

Magdalene asylums were institutions in 19th- and 20th-century Ireland for so-called "fallen women". Asylums for "fallen women" operated throughout Europe, Britain, Ireland, Canada and the United States for much of the nineteenth and well into the twentieth century. The first asylum in Ireland opened on Leeson Street in Dublin in 1767, founded by Lady Arabella Denny. In Belfast there was a Church of Ireland run Ulster Magdalene Asylum (founded in 1839) on Donegall Pass, while parallel institutions were run by Catholics on Ormeau Road and Presbyterians on Whitehall Parade.[1]
Initially the mission of the asylums was often to rehabilitate women back into society, but by the early twentieth century the homes had become increasingly punitive and prison like (at least in Ireland and Scotland). In most asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour, including laundry and needle work. They also endured a daily regime that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence. In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene laundries. It has been estimated that up to 30,000 women passed through such laundries in Ireland.[2][3] The last Magdalene asylum in the Republic of Ireland closed on September 25, 1996.[3]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum


I myself worked 'voluntarily' in one of the Magdalen Laundries in the 80s!

gimmebroadband

gigino wrote: »

while the RC church as assets of 90 billion.

Vatican Wealth: The myth that's contrasted with voluntary poverty

Many people accuse the Vatican and the Catholic Church in general of hording up money and retaining vast wealth. In fact, many say the reason priests are celibate is so that they do not have a family to pass down their possessions to. Many look at the large basilicas and cathedrals and wonder why they aren't being sold off to help the poor. I will analyze these questions and show how they are based on falsehoods.

One of the main proofs that the Catholic Church and specifically priests and bishops are not members of the clergy to gain wealth is the way the wealth they have is used and to contrast that with how others use wealth. When you look at the lifestyles of the rich and famous, whether it's the show or just the activity, what do you notice? They have huge houses, several expensive cars, a swimming pool, huge tvs, etc. And a major thing you will notice is that they are usually not celibate! Contrast this now with clergy. They usually live in a small place, have a utilitarian car, are voluntarily celibate, etc. They have forgone the trappings of this world in order to come closer to the spiritual life.

When Pope John Paul II, the head of the Catholic Church, died in 2005, he had very few possessions of personal property. Just a few little things. It is said he did not remember the meals he ate but could remember almost all the conversations he had with people. He was most interested in being a shepherd to the people of God. There are countless examples of saints living in voluntary povery in the Catholic Church, from St. Francis of Assisi who could have taken over his father's textiles business, or Alphonsus Liguori, founder of the Redemptorists and Doctor of the Church, who could have had a lucrative career as a lawyer in Italy but renouced that to follow a spiritual path. Mother Teresa gave up her life to be a nun in the poorest part of India. Ten thousand books could be written about saints who renounced a life of luxury to live a Catholic spiritual life and you would still not have scratched the surface.

As for basilicas and cathedrals, these were works of love. They were built by donations given by people. The people wanted places of worship where they could celebrate the Mass. Many times, people of the community actually helped in building these monuments. Brother André Bessette, who founded St. Joseph's Oratory, one of the largest churches in Canada and the world, was known for his harsh austerities. He had a tiny room and did many forms of penance. His aunt was worried that he would die because he was already frail. He in fact lived into his nineties.

As far as hording up wealth goes, the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on the planet. Bigger than the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, or any other institution or organization in the world.

If you are seeking personal material wealth, you better look elsewhere than the clergy of the Catholic Church.


http://holymotherchurch.blogspot.com/2009/04/vatican-wealth-myth-thats-contrasted.html

gigino

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I myself worked 'voluntarily' in one of the Magdalen Laundries in the 80s!

Did the nuns there run slave conditions, as described in the other laundries run by the nuns on RTE ? 12 hour working days, no pay, kept under lock + key , and no escape ?

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Many people accuse the Vatican and the Catholic Church in general of hording up money and retaining vast wealth.

Thats because of its vast wealth ; the largest property owner in the world, the owner of billions in gold and shares, and the owner of countless art treasures.

hivizman

There's an article linked to this in today's issue of The Guardian: "Ireland's Magdalene laundries scandal must be laid to rest. Church, family and state were all complicit in the abuse of thousands of women. The UN is right: Ireland must investigate."

gimmebroadband

gigino wrote: »

Did the nuns there run slave conditions, as described in the other laundries run by the nuns on RTE ? 12 hour working days, no pay, kept under lock + key , and no escape ?



Thats because of its vast wealth ; the largest property owner in the world, the owner of billions in gold and shares, and the owner of countless art treasures.

Both the Vatican and Ireland are States, has it's own treasures, museums, libraries, priceless paintings, gold, buildings and artefacts! Ireland's affairs are local, the Vatican's affairs are global! You can imagine how much it costs to run Ireland, then how much it would cost on a global scale. The Vatican spends billions on charites worldwide, if that were to stop then the world would be a lot worse off!

(Insert the ususal sex abuse statement here!) :rolleyes:

gigino

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The Vatican spends billions on charites worldwide

Do you mean billions of its own money ? Would you have a link for that ?

The current worth of the Vatican is estimated at between 10 and 15 billion. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

Of course the value of the assets of the Roman Catholic church worldwide is many times that. Critics are continually astounded so little is spent on charity.

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,700513,00.html

gimmebroadband

The Myth Of the Vatican Wealth

More than a few times since the start of our Bible Study program at St. Julie’s, the issue of the Church’s wealth (or specifically the wealth of the Vatican), has emerged as a sore spot for some people. The issue was evoked most recently as we encountered the emphasis within the Gospel of Luke on the hazards of worldly wealth and greed: And this theme is often paired with a warning to the world that God’s plan will include a dramatic reversal of fortune, (making the poor, rich, and the rich, poor). It didn’t take long for that pesky question to emerge, “why doesn’t the Church sell her wealth, and use that money to feed the poor?”


Indeed, I suppose that the Church could be perceived as “wealthy” given the vast collection of art, the lavish appointments of basilicas, and the expensive looking vestments worn by the Pope and Cardinals. These are the things we can see! What about all of that hidden wealth in banks and in basement vaults? There must be billions!
Wanting for some decent answers which might be of help, I came upon the following: John Allen, a writer for National Catholic Reporter, someone frequently consulted by the media for “all things Church,” says “To put it bluntly, the Vatican is not rich. It has an annual operating budget of $260 million, which would not place it on any Top 500 list of major social institutions. To draw a comparison in the non-profit sector, Harvard University has an annual operating budget of a little over $1.3 billion, which means it could run the equivalent of five Vaticans every year and still have pocket change left over. . . But what of the some 18,000 artistic treasures in the Holy See, such as the Pietà, that don’t show up on these ledgers? From the Holy See’s point of view, these artworks are part of the artistic heritage of the world, and may never be sold or borrowed against. Michelangelo’s famous Pieta statue, the Sistine Chapel, or Raphael’s famous frescoes in the Apostolic Palace are thus listed at a value of 1 Euro each. In fact, those treasures amount to a net drain on the Holy See’s budget, because millions of Euros have to be allocated every year for maintenance and restoration. The moral of the story is that the image of the Vatican as a playground for “masters of the universe” just isn’t reality. This is, for the most part, not an island of exaggerated privilege, but a normal bureaucratic environment in which the church’s civil servants are ordinary men and women trying to do their jobs as best they can.”

A blogger responding to the above quote sums the matter up best: “So hopefully you can see that asking that the Church sell all of its belongings to help the poor would be similar to asking the United States government to liquidate the assets of Washington DC including the Smithsonian Institute in order to assist the poor. I don’t see anyone arguing that during these trying times of budget deficits and economic uncertainly. People do not suggest that because it stands to reason, just as it does for the Church, that the effort would be a net loss for all of us.”


http://www.saintjulies.org/2010/09/myth-of-vatican-wealth/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WujKBJc_yMg

gigino

gimmebroadband wrote: »

John Allen, a writer for National Catholic Reporter,....

His report above could be considered to be a bit biased in favour of his employers. The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.
Think of the charity work that could be done if the RCC sold off some of its gold, shares or property.
There was no need for the nuns to enslave poor vulnerable women for 12 hours unpaid work every day, under lock and key in the Magdalene laundries. On the RTE documentary it is significant how the 4 Catholic orders involved have been written to but have not responded. See link in OP.

MrPudding

gimmebroadband wrote: »

... is the largest charitable organization on the planet. *Bigger than the Salvation Army, the Red Cross, the Bill and Melinda *Gates Foundation, or any other institution or organization in the world.

There are couple of interesting differences though. Al the money in the Gates foundation comes either from the Gates family themselves, or donations from other rich people. The money the vatican uses comes from it's Sunday collections. The vatican does not use it's "own" money.*

Would we expect the state to liquidate it's assets to pay for services? No. Not unless things were desperate. Things like museums and libraries and art galleries provide a service for the people. What service do the private vaults and art collections of the vatican *provide?

And what about paying you liabilities? The church has certain liabilities for certain activities it carried out. It has used it's assets to deal with those liabilities in a certain way. Did it sell them to raise the money? Of course not. It transferred them to newly set up, friendly organisations so it could plead poverty and avoid payment. Despicable.*

What about the deal the church got for the compensation for a use in Ireland? It only had to pay something like 120m. Now much has it paid?

Your apologist excuses might ring true for some organisations, but when the organisation embarks on a programme of asset transfer to avoid liability they are hollow. When it hoards valuable treasure and gold in PRIVATE vaults you can claim it is for the good of the world.*

Also, I find it slightly wrong for you to point to priestly celibacy and "voluntary" poverty (and I would not necessarily agree with the poverty in all cases) as a virtue and indication that the church cares not for money, when the reason the celibacy requirement was introduce in the first place was to prevent them from having children that might*have a claim to money or assets when their father died.*

Whatever way you cut it, the catholic church is a very rich organisation and it doesn't want to share, even with those it has wronged.*

MrP

ISAW

MrPudding wrote: »

There are couple of interesting differences though. Al the money in the Gates foundation comes either from the Gates family themselves, or donations from other rich people.

And where did they get it?

The money the vatican uses comes from it's Sunday collections. The vatican does not use it's "own" money.*

Which is the point! It has very little or none of its own money

Would we expect the state to liquidate it's assets to pay for services? No. Not unless things were desperate. Things like museums and libraries and art galleries provide a service for the people. What service do the private vaults and art collections of the vatican *provide?

the same as those of the State you just mentioned.

I note in one swoop you mention the Vatican "STATE" and then turn it into the Vatican "PRIVATE" State.

Is the Queen of England Private? Or Lichtenstein? Or Belgium? Or Holland? Or Fort Knox?

And what about paying you liabilities? The church has certain liabilities for certain activities it carried out. It has used it's assets to deal with those liabilities in a certain way. Did it sell them to raise the money? Of course not. It transferred them to newly set up, friendly organisations so it could plead poverty and avoid payment. Despicable.*

so Ireland transfers wealth to offshore landowners and investors and bond holders in china and raises liabilities by borrowing based on that and that is "normal banking" but if another state raises loans it is despicable? LOL

What about the deal the church got for the compensation for a use in Ireland?

What about you being the one who earlier accused me of "whataboutery" ? When are at it
yourself? LOL.

It only had to pay something like 120m. Now much has it paid?

Igive up - tell us! You raised the "what about" and now you dont know what you are talking about?

Your apologist excuses might ring true for some organisations, but when the organisation embarks on a programme of asset transfer to avoid liability they are hollow. When it hoards valuable treasure and gold in PRIVATE vaults you can claim it is for the good of the world.*

are the crown Jewels Private? Gold in Fort Knox ( hoarded in private) ? The Queens of the Netherlands Belgium etc. houses?
Where do you claim the Vatican have vast gold hoarded?

Also, I find it slightly wrong for you to point to priestly celibacy and "voluntary" poverty (and I would not necessarily agree with the poverty in all cases) as a virtue and indication that the church cares not for money, when the reason the celibacy requirement was introduce in the first place was to prevent them from having children that might*have a claim to money or assets when their father died.*

Your evidence is? and how do you explain the ten centuries prior to that and the other branches of the church where married clergy are allowed?

Whatever way you cut it, the catholic church is a very rich organisation and it doesn't want to share, even with those it has wronged.

your evidence is?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Where do you claim the Vatican have vast gold hoarded?

The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

A lot of plc shares in Italy and worldwide, amounting to many billions of euro, are also held by the RCC. Also the RCC has been estimated to be the largest property owner in the world ...including all the land elderly people have given them over the centuries;).

Think of the income the RCC accumulated as well by using "slave labour " as RTE Prime time put it last Tuesday evening ) in the Magdalene laundries ....working enslaved women under lock + key for 12 hours a day for no pay. And as RTE said none of the 4 Catholic institutions involved even had the courtesy to reply to letters. What a despicable organisation. I see the United Nations has now ordered an inquiry though.

gimmebroadband

gigino wrote: »

The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

All speculation! That reads straight out of a Dan Brown conspiracy novel. I even heard that the Rothschild family runs the Vatican bank, but there's no proof of that either.

Most parishes like everyone else are struggling financially, with many church buildings falling into disrepair.

Vatican City Faces Financial Loss For The Third Consecutive Year

Vatican Finances

Next thing they'll be saying the Pope is the anti-chist! :pac:

MrPudding

ISAW wrote: »

And where did they get it?

Not sure how it is relevant, but I would presume they made it by selling stuff.

ISAW wrote: »

is the point! It has very little or none of its own money

But it has billions in assets.

ISAW wrote: »

same as those of the State you just mentioned.

I note in one swoop you mention the Vatican "STATE" and then turn it into the Vatican "PRIVATE" State.

Is the Queen of England Private? Or Lichtenstein? Or Belgium? Or Holland? Or Fort Knox?

I have to presume you are being deliberating obtuse, I don't think what I said was particularly difficult to understand.

When I said "state", I was referring to a country, this was in response to someone, I think, saying something about countries selling off museums etc to raise funds. I don't consider to vatican or the holy see to be a valid legal state (though clearly the powers that be disagree, or a least lack the spine to say they disagree). When I used the term "private" I was referring to the vaults of the vatican, its art collections etc. This was also in response to the comment about a state, a proper one, selling off things to raise funds. I was pointing out that museums and art galleries etc provide a service to the public, and therefore it is defensible for them not to be sold off unless the need is dire.

The vatican, on the other hand, does not allow all of its treasures to be seen. Vast collections are held in "private" vaults.

ISAW wrote: »

Ireland transfers wealth to offshore landowners and investors and bond holders in china and raises liabilities by borrowing based on that and that is "normal banking" but if another state raises loans it is despicable? LOL

Like so many things in life, the actions should be looked at in context. Why did Ireland do it? Why did the church do it? Is there a difference?

ISAW wrote: »

about you being the one who earlier accused me of "whataboutery" ? When are at it
yourself? LOL.

We obviously have a different idea of what constitutes whataboutery. If you said to me "You download music illegally and that is bad." And then I say, "well, loads of people do it." Then that is whataboutery. I am trying to deflect the fact that I have done something wrong by pointing out that other people have done it, I am in effect, say "what about all the other people that do it. Whataboutery.

If one is talking about a particular subject, say for example the clerical sex abuse scandal in the catholic church, and moves from one aspect of that scandal to another part of the same scandal in the same organisation, then that is not whataboutery. Whataboutery is not a comment on the use of the words "what about" which are perfectly acceptable to use, it is about trying to deflect blame or somehow reduce culpability by saying "what about those other people that also did bad things. I hope this has helped.

ISAW wrote: »

Igive up - tell us! You raised the "what about" and now you dont know what you are talking about?

It was a semi-retorical question. My understanding is that they have paid little or none of the agreed sum.



are

ISAW wrote: »

crown Jewels Private? Gold in Fort Knox ( hoarded in private) ? The Queens of the Netherlands Belgium etc. houses?
Where do you claim the Vatican have vast gold hoarded?

Um, the crown jewels are in the Tower of London and anyone can go see them. And even if they weren't, the last time I checked the royal family weren't guilty of decades of child rape and subsequent cover ups. If the royal family of the UK or the Netherlands or Belgium are at some point in the future found complicit in a massive child rape scandal and subsequently plead poverty, don't worry, I will call for them to sell some stuff off as well.

MrP

gimmebroadband

MrPudding wrote: »

Not sure how it is relevant, but I would presume they made it by selling stuff.

Perhaps their stuff is manufactured in poor countries with very little wages!

MrPudding wrote: »

But it has billions in assets.

The do not have 'assets' they have historical artefacts from 2000 years! Lets assume that those artefacts are worth about 700 billion dollars and sold off, and there is I billion poor, that means they'll get a paltry 700 dollars each, and they'll still be poor several weeks later. The Church shouldn't be the only ones to look after the poor, we all should, Governments etc. (Jesus said that the poor you will always have with you - he was more concerned about the poor in spirit!)

Goverments are also guilty of running workhouses and sweatshops etc. in the middle ages, and have commited atrocities even on their own people!

MrPudding

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Perhaps their stuff is manufactured in poor countries with very little wages!



The do not have 'assets' they have historical artefacts from 2000 years! Lets assume that those artefacts are worth about 700 billion dollars and sold off, and there is I billion poor, that means they'll get a paltry 700 dollars each, and they'll still be poor several weeks later. The Church shouldn't be the only ones to look after the poor, we all should, Governments etc. (Jesus said that the poor you will always have with you - he was more concerned about the poor in spirit!)

Goverments are also guilty of running workhouses and sweatshops etc. in the middle ages, and have commited atrocities even on their own people!

Sorry, but I don't believe I have said anything about selling stuff off to help the poor.

MrP

gigino

According to the RTE news today "Minister for Justice Alan Shatter has welcomed the news that congregations of nuns who ran the Magdalene laundries have given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry.
It followed a call from the UN Committee against Torture for a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.
The conference of the Religious in Ireland issued a statement on behalf of the four bodies last night which said they believed an inquiry will bring greater clarity, understanding, healing and justice in the interests of current and former residents.

Mr Shatter has said the facts surrounding the controversy must be established and is expected to bring his proposals for addressing it to cabinet within the next two weeks.

The four congregations are the Sisters of Our Lady of Charity, the Religious Sisters Charity, the Sisters of Mercy and the Good Shepherd Sisters. "

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

The abuse by the RC church in Ireland, and the lack of satisfactory action taken since then by the Irish Roman Catholic church, has prompted - in fact it took, in the eyes of the world - the " UN Committee against Torture" to order a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.

Shame on the RCC and the 4 institutions for nor co-operating with enquiries up to now. On Prime Time last Tuesday ( RTE 9.30 ) it said the 4 institutions would not even answer letters.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

His report above could be considered to be a bit biased in favour of his employers.

You can't just dismiss it like that. Ill bet you didnt even look at it. WHAT do you consider biased in it?

The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars.

Where is your source for that estimate?

A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest.

Source? Ill bet it is any bit as biased as you pretend the above one is.

But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country.

You are making this up aren't you?

When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

You are making it up or getting it as a cut and paste from chick.com.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_T._Chick

designed to promote Protestant evangelism from a Christian Fundamentalist point of view. Many of these are controversial, as they accuse Catholics, Freemasons, Muslims and many other groups of murder and conspiracies, while Chick maintains his views are simply politically incorrect

Think of the charity work that could be done if the RCC sold off some of its gold, shares or property.

they already have the largest charity organisations in the World. The St Vincent De Paul for example set up to counter atheists who harped on about church control in coffee shops and never actually did anything for the poor.

There was no need for the nuns to enslave poor vulnerable women for 12 hours unpaid work every day, under lock and key in the Magdalene laundries. On the RTE documentary it is significant how the 4 Catholic orders involved have been written to but have not responded.

Indeed there was no need for the church to support Slavery in general say in the Caribbean ( which they didn't) . Nor were Magdalen Laundries part of such a mythical plan.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

On the RTE documentary it is significant how the 4 Catholic orders involved have been written to but have not responded. See link in OP.

Contradicted by your later report that their umbrella group CORI replied.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Contradicted by your later report that their umbrella group CORI replied.

not contracdicted...on Tuesday evening RTE Prime Time programme said they did not reply, the breaking news yesterday on RTE was the RC institutions have finally "given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry" after the " UN Committee against Torture" ordered a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

As regards the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church ( land, property, gold, art, shares, investments etc ) - and helped by slave unpaid labour of the Magdalene Laundries - is estimated to be in excess of 90 billion euro. Google it all yourself if you want, 90 billion plus is the average, I gave links on another thread. Its not McDonalds who is the biggest property owner in the world you know, they are just second.

georgieporgy

they should give that 90 billion to the Irish government to pay off the bailout debt. that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

gimmebroadband

The Vincent DePaul Society are left to pick up the pieces, after bailing out the big boys! :rolleyes:

georgieporgy

I was in Rome a few weeks ago and put a few euro in a collection box in the church wherein lie the remains of St Catherine of Siena. The sign said it was for the upkeep of the church building.

Had I known how rich the vatican was I would have stuck in a note suggesting they sell the building. (sell to whom? , you ask....).

gigino

THhe RCC church owns a vast amount of properties / land worldwide which are not churches / cathedrals. If you want to find more liquid forms of asset / more easily transferred to cash, have a look at its share portfolio, not to mention the billions worth of gold it has. Of course the RCC will say its just the custodians of these assets. Still does not excuse the treatment of the "slaves" ( according to RTE ) in the Magdalene laundries..

georgieporgy

And gold has gone up in value now too!

I wouldn't be surprised to hear if some of that came via the nazi connections when Hitler dispossed the Jews. He took all that gold from the Jews and dished it out to the Hitler youth (young Ratzinger incl). I bet Mr R used that gold to fund his rise to the papacy. I don't see him giving that up easily.

gigino

Now if it was me who posted such drivel about the origin of the gold and said "I do'nt see him giving it up easily", I'd be ( rightfully ) told to get back on topic.

On the topic, the latest news, according to RTE anyway, is the RC institutions have finally "given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry" after the " UN Committee against Torture" ordered a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

gimmebroadband

I never saw evidence of torture in the ML I worked in, not saying it didn't happen years before! The state is also implicated in the ML scandals also.

I would like to see 'hard evidence' of the wealth you proclaim the RCC has!

Callan57

gigino wrote: »

Now if it was me who posted such drivel about the origin of the gold and said "I do'nt see him giving it up easily", I'd be ( rightfully ) told to get back on topic.

On the topic, the latest news, according to RTE anyway, is the RC institutions have finally "given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry" after the " UN Committee against Torture" ordered a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

Note it says to participate ... it doesn't say co-operate.
CORI will do exactly what they did the last time ... protect their own interests & leave the state to carry the cost of their abuse. I'd bet my pension you won't get a red cent out of any of the so-called religous or the Vatican.
If they had a grain of Christianity in them they would make sure all these women were looked after in the same style & luxury their own members are looked after in their retirement. You won't catch many nuns waiting on A & E trollys you can bet but you'll find plenty in the Mater Private & Blackrock!

gimmebroadband

Callan57 wrote: »

Note it says to participate ... it doesn't say co-operate.
CORI will do exactly what they did the last time ... protect their own interests & leave the state to carry the cost of their abuse. I'd bet my pension you won't get a red cent out of any of the so-called religous or the Vatican.
If they had a grain of Christianity in them they would make sure all these women were looked after in the same style & luxury their own members are looked after in their retirement. You won't catch many nuns waiting on A & E trollys you can bet but you'll find plenty in the Mater Private & Blackrock!

The government was also implicated in the alleged abuse, so they should pay as well!

getz

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The government was also implicated in the alleged abuse, so they should pay as well!

they was not only implicated,they conspired with the church to lock up,even send them there,for committing no crime,their babies taken away,forced into slave labour,some were never released , died and were buried in unmarked graves,the sooner these people are brought to justice the better,

georgieporgy

gigino wrote: »

Now if it was me who posted such drivel about the origin of the gold and said "I do'nt see him giving it up easily", I'd be ( rightfully ) told to get back on topic.

But it's not drivel. I googled it!

http://www.weirdload.com/gold.html

gigino

georgieporgy wrote: »

But it's not drivel. I googled it!

http://www.weirdload.com/gold.html

Very good, maybe no smoke without fire, but I prefer to google more reliable sources. According to the UN magazine ( I gave the link before ) the RCC has billions worth of gold in vaults in America, UK and Switzerland. This does not include any hoarded in the Vatican vaults, along with artworks etc too....to say nothing of its share portfolio ( 15% of the value of the Italian stock exchange at one stage etc ).

getz

mother teresa, she left 11 million dollars in her personal bank account,she never donated any of her own money to charity,she only collected money from the poor fools dumb enough to donate,now they are trying to make her a saint,

georgieporgy

somebody else who likes google

gimmebroadband

getz wrote: »

mother teresa, she left 11 million dollars in her personal bank account,she never donated any of her own money to charity,she only collected money from the poor fools dumb enough to donate,now they are trying to make her a saint,

If I may...........

gigino

getz wrote: »

mother teresa, she left 11 million dollars in her personal bank account,she never donated any of her own money to charity,she only collected money from the poor fools dumb enough to donate,now they are trying to make her a saint,

If you enter "mother theresa money laundering" in to google you get 302,000 hits. If you enter it in to "mother theresa money" you get millions of hits, including many from insiders very critical. Nothing that new there, although you do not hear much of that in this country. However, as this thread is about the Magdalene laundries, I suggest a seperate thread be created if anyone has anything new to say on Mother Theresa.

gimmebroadband

Not worth a dime if there isn't any facts to back it up, not hearsay!

.....and if you google Mother Teresa a Saint, you will also get millions of hits, nothing new there!

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

not contracdicted...on Tuesday evening RTE Prime Time programme said they did not reply,

And the report you quoted stated

The conference of the Religious in Ireland issued a statement on behalf of the four bodies last night

Which is a reply by an umbrella group on behalf of all of them!

the breaking news yesterday on RTE was the RC institutions have finally "given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry"

Which is another contradiction of your assertion that they had not replied!

The UN has little or no authority or power to make Ireland do anything by the way.

As regards the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church ( land, property, gold, art, shares, investments etc ) - and helped by slave unpaid labour of the Magdalene Laundries

You have produced no evidence whatsoever that any monies made by the operation of such laundries was transferred to any Vatican banks.

If any money was made the Orders still have it or used it to but property in Ireland I would suggest.

- is estimated to be in excess of 90 billion euro.

I don't believe you! any sources?

Google it all yourself if you want, 90 billion plus is the average, I gave links on another thread. Its not McDonalds who is the biggest property owner in the world you know, they are just second.

Again you fail to supply any evidence! SAying "I read it somewhere" is not supporting your case with evidence. How about the aliens in flying saucers eh? they along with the invisible unicorns are all behind this arent they? I know because I read it somewhere . Just Google it!

I'm sorry but the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence and not just say you did! And real evidence isn't like your lies about 5.8 per cent.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

And the report you quoted stated

Which is a reply by an umbrella group on behalf of all of them!

Which is another contradiction of your assertion that they had not replied!

this was answered / explained to you in post no. 20

Several days after RTE Prime Time programme said they did not reply, the breaking news on RTE was the RC institutions have finally "given an undertaking to participate in any inquiry" after the " UN Committee against Torture" ordered a statutory inquiry into abuse at the institutions.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0611/magdalene.html

ISAW wrote: »

I don't believe you! any sources?.

I gave you the links before. I am not going to derail this discussion by talking here in detail about the value of Roman Catholic property, land, buildings, gold, shares, art , deposits etc throughout the world. Start a new thread on that if you want.

ISAW wrote: »

And real evidence isn't like your lies about 5.8 per cent.

I gave you the link before to the savi report many times , and quoted their exact words...so they cannot be my lies.
Its a pity you are not as concerned about the 5.8% of sexually abused boys who were abused by the clergy / religous. Or the countless boys who were silenced by the powerful priests / clergy.

Fanny Cradock

getz wrote: »

mother teresa, she left 11 million dollars in her personal bank account,she never donated any of her own money to charity,she only collected money from the poor fools dumb enough to donate,now they are trying to make her a saint,

Source, please.

gigino

I'd love to see a source where it mentioned 11 million dollars too. However, no one knows what happened to the hundreds of millions of dollars Mother Teresa received. There was no accounting and no evidence that she has built a hospital or orphanage that reflects modern health and sanitary conditions. One account I read claimed she had $50 million in one bank account alone while her hospice patients got aspirin for end stage cancer pain. Dirty needles, reused IV equipment, babies were dying of starvation while she kept all the money donated for them in a bank.
http://www.population-security.org/swom-96-09.htm


Do a little research, even the nuns who worked for her are talking. Research won't hurt, honest.
http://www.mukto-mona.com/Articles/mother_teresa/sanal_ed.htm

http://www.amazon.com/Missionary-Position-Mother-Teresa-Practice/dp/185984054X

I remember meeting someone from India once, I mentioned I thought Mother Teresa done some good work there. This Indian was a very well educated and respected man, he replied "You can't be serious" and said "You really should do bit of research / read up on her - Google her."

Bob Cratchet

What has spam about mother Teresa got to do with this thread ?

gigino

By all accounts ,just as much of the many many millions destined for the poor of India got...eh sidetracked / diverted , questions are being asked / will be asked about the finances of the Magdalene laundries. The " slaves " as RTE as much as called them, were not paid, and worked 12 hour days, and were held under lock + key when not working. They were returned to captivity by the Gardai if they escaped. Yet the laundries were doing work for who . And presumably they were getting well paid ?

n.b. its not all spam about Mother Teresa. Do a little independent research, even the nuns who worked for her are talking.

Fanny Cradock

gigino wrote: »

I suggest a seperate thread be created if anyone has anything new to say on Mother Theresa.

On consideration, I think gigino is correct here. Let's keep this thread on topic. If people want to talk about MT (and I would be interested to see if there is any substance behind the various claims or is it mostly fluf) then please start another thread.

Bob Cratchet

I've searched and interestingly cannot find any impartial/non vested interest criticism of her.

I did find the following FACTS

The Missionaries of Charity, which began as a small Order with 12 members in Calcutta, today has more than 4,000 nuns running orphanages, AIDS hospices, charity centres worldwide, and caring for refugees, the blind, disabled, aged, alcoholics, the poor and homeless and victims of floods, epidemics and famine in Asia, Africa, Latin America, North America, Poland, and Australia. In 1965, by granting a Decree of Praise, Pope Paul VI granted Mother Teresa permission to expand her order to other countries. The order's first house outside India was in Venezuela. Presently, the "Missionaries of Charity" has presence in more than 100 countries.

Among the 124 Awards Received:
Padmashree Award (from the President of India) August 1962
Pope John XXIII Peace Prize January 1971
John F. Kennedy International Award September 1971
Jawahalal Nehru Award for International Understanding November 1972
Templeton Prize for "Progress in Religion" April 1973
Nobel Peace Prize December 1979
Bharat Ratna (Jewel of India) March 1980
Order of Merit (from Queen Elizabeth) November 1983
Gold Medal of the Soviet Peace Committee August 1987
United States Congressional Gold Medal June 1997

http://www.iloveindia.com/indian-heroes/mother-teresa/index.html

I'm still wondering what she has to do with this thread ?

Fanny Cradock

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I'm still wondering what she has to do with this thread ?

Nothing. So let's stop talking about it.

Bob Cratchet

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

On consideration, I think gigino is correct here.

Regarding what ?

ISAW

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

I'm still wondering what she has to do with this thread ?

If someone can do down a saint of the Church and claim about loads of hidded money in secret bank ac***** then one can build up a case for widespread corruption as if the vatican was invloved in planning such hiding of monies. In fact when they get to that level people already assume such accounts exist and believe the money is there and hidden away somewhere.

But in the end all that arrives are allegations.

Bu fair enough. How much were the Laundries paid from the State or anyone else over the period? What did they do with any money they got? These are fair questions which go to the heart of the "corruption" issue without having to go through lists of abuse claims. We are specifically here talking about money so please don't get sidetracked into stories about beatings or cutting hair or whatever.

Bob Cratchet

ISAW wrote: »

If someone can do down a saint of the Church and claim about loads of hidded money in secret bank ac***** then one can build up a case for widespread corruption as if the vatican was invloved in planning such hiding of monies. In fact when they get to that level people already assume such accounts exist and believe the money is there and hidden away somewhere.

But in the end all that arrives are allegations.

Bu fair enough. How much were the Laundries paid from the State or anyone else over the period? What did they do with any money they got? These are fair questions which go to the heart of the "corruption" issue without having to go through lists of abuse claims. We are specifically here talking about money so please don't get sidetracked into stories about beatings or cutting hair or whatever.

The state also has a major part to play in not checking for / dealing with abuse in these institutions which were effectively providing state care / welfare. The state has got off very lightly so far, hopefully this will change.

gimmebroadband

Reporter David Quinn has an article about the Magdalen Laudries in today's Irish Independant!

rainbow kirby

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Reporter David Quinn has an article about the Magdalen Laudries in today's Irish Independant!

Defending the indefensible, that's David Quinn in a nutshell.