Should "the ladies lounge" clarify its position and only allow ladies to post?

Jimmy Garlic

(I redirect my query to feedback)

Seems like men get banned from there and get accused of "trolling" for posting the most mundane things. For example, there is a thread about how unfriendly Irish women can be, I expressed the opinion that women who wear those ridiculous big sunglasses can be particularity unfriendly. Banned, that's "trolling" apparently.

That is a valid opinion. I didn't say it to "troll" the ladies lounge. Men get a very raw deal over there. It seems like they want an echo chamber.

Ickle Magoo

You can't see why a male posting in the ladies lounge just to make inflammatory generalisations about ladies is trolling? Srsly?! :rolleyes:

The forum is, as the charter states, a forum primarily for the discussion of issues by the female posters of Boards. This means that discussion will naturally be slanted towards the female perspective and posts from male posters which interject just to try to right this imbalance are in breach of the forum ethos.

We have a Humanities forum, an After Hours general chat forum, a Gentleman's Club forum, etc, etc. In fact, the vast majority of Boards is given over to all posters discussing pretty much what they like, how they like. You wouldn't think it to hear the volume of begrudging noise generated by it but tLL is one tiny corner that, due to the natural demographics of Boards, was given over to the lady posters to discuss issues of interest to them and that affect them without constantly having to field arguments and dismissive retorts made along gender lines. If discussing issues from a male perspective is what is wanted, there is no shortage of other platforms from which to do this.

For the record - and this goes for pretty much any and all forums - jumping in with inflammatory statements such as "most irish....", "every coloured person I've met....", "gay people think..." etc, etc is not going to be welcome. Needlessly aggressive, dismissive, insulting and/or inflammatory statements about women in the Ladies Lounge, subjective personal opinion/anecdote or no - especially so, for obvious reasons.

If you have an issue with a post or poster then use the report function (little red triangle with exclamation mark at foot of posts under posters names) and if it is deemed to breach Boards rules or the forum charter then the moderators will deal with it. If it is just a post which is discussion issues from a female perspective and carries that natural bias, then you are going to have to accept that is part and parcel of that particular forum - as all specialised forums have their own unique ethos to the rest of Boards - and if that's not acceptable, as I say, there are plenty other forums in which to enjoy.

All the best. :cool:

Beruthiel

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Seems like men get banned from there and get accused of "trolling" for posting the most mundane things.

This thread has a very short life span if you cannot back that comment up with actual examples.

For example, there is a thread about how unfriendly Irish women can be, I expressed the opinion that women who wear those ridiculous big sunglasses can be particularity unfriendly. Banned, that's "trolling" apparently.

Of course it is. Unless you personally know every single woman in the world who wears them?

That is a valid opinion.

No. It's a generalisation.

Oryx

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

(I redirect my query to feedback)

Seems like men get banned from there and get accused of "trolling" for posting the most mundane things. For example, there is a thread about how unfriendly Irish women can be, I expressed the opinion that women who wear those ridiculous big sunglasses can be particularity unfriendly. Banned, that's "trolling" apparently.

That is a valid opinion. I didn't say it to "troll" the ladies lounge. Men get a very raw deal over there. It seems like they want an echo chamber.

Ickle Magoo has probably answered your query, but I dont moderate there, so for what its worth; my 2c.

The forum is not anti man but it is there primarily for womens interests, in the same way as shooting is there primarily for those who like guns, and H&F for those who like keeping fit. At least one of the tLL moderators is male. Men are welcome to post there, and do. Trouble only occurs when anyone posts there in an off topic or unwelcome way. The comment you quote above didnt get you banned because youre a man, it got you banned because it was a pointless generalisation.

You would get the same result if you posted on shooting that all gun owners are barbarians. A deliberately ill thought out generalisation, which runs contrary to the ethos of the forum, will get you accused of trolling, regardless of your gender or the forum you place it in.

Jimmy Garlic

Beruthiel wrote: »

This thread has a very short life span if you cannot back that comment up with actual examples.

There are plenty of examples. Have a look at all the threads started regarding moderation in TLL

Of course it is. Unless you personally know every single woman in the world who wears them?

No. It's a generalisation.

Not all generalisations are a million miles away from the truth. For example, people who wear pyjamas as their daily attire. I don't know every single person who wears pyjamas in public but I have a good idea as to what their general mindset is.

AnonoBoy

Go into the soccer forum and post the same thread but substituting 'Irish soccer fans' for 'Irish women'.

Say you find the soccer fans who wear Liverpool jersys particularly unfriendly.

See how long it takes the thread to be locked.

See the similarity?

Ickle Magoo

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There are plenty of examples. Have a look at all the threads started regarding moderation in TLL

And yet there are a plethora of posters, many (most!) of which are male who have never given any cause to attract moderator attention, far less action regularly making valued contributions to the forum - so do you think the issue is the moderators, the ethos of the forum - or the tiny handful of posters who can't seem to abide by either forum or indeed site rules and appear to want tLL to abandon the reason it exists and it's unique ethos in order to become a mini humanities or AH that they can use for drive-by silliness?

Wibbs

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Seems like men get banned from there and get accused of "trolling" for posting the most mundane things. For example, there is a thread about how unfriendly Irish women can be,

A daft thread to start with. I mean at what point in the "thought process" did the thread entitled "Foreign girls are so much friendlier then(sic) Irish girls" seem like a good idea on a forum set aside for and frequented by mostly "Irish girls"? I mean really? I think most would agree the OP is either trolling or drunk or not firing on all spark plugs.

I expressed the opinion that women who wear those ridiculous big sunglasses can be particularity unfriendly. Banned, that's "trolling" apparently.

In an already pretty daft thread the very definition of generalisation, you pop in with big sunglasses = unfriendly? Can you not see an issue? Seriously? In any event why are you here and not DRP?

That is a valid opinion.

Eh no. It really really isn't. Valid = authoritative, well-founded, having force, weight, or cogency. The social sciences have yet to nail down the sunglasses/unfriendliness ratio as valid as far as I'm aware.

I didn't say it to "troll" the ladies lounge.

And yet you still think this is a valid opinion? You really think wandering into a forum and mouthing off about the very subject of that forum is at best ill advised, slightly worse, trolling or worse of all a bit daft?

Men get a very raw deal over there.

Annnnnd here we go. The crux of these arguments agin the Ladies Lounge. More bleating from some male quarters. Why this vexes ye so greatly I'll never know. I think the religious are or can be a tad delusional. I do not go into their forums to hop up and down and moan because I'm not allowed fire off generalisations in their forums. One forum specifically for women and we get almost daily trolling or bleating. Seriously it's getting a bit pathetic at this stage.

There are plenty of examples. Have a look at all the threads started regarding moderation in TLL

Remarkably few until quite recently. hmmm...


PS the guys moaning about Irish women being bitches? Yea well some Spanish men and some French men and some Italian men say the same about their women. You know the ones you reckon are the bees knees? Ye all have one thing in common. The fault lies not with the women, 9 times outa 10 it lies much much closer to home.

Wibbs

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Go into the soccer forum and post the same thread but substituting 'Irish soccer fans' for 'Irish women'.

Say you find the soccer fans who wear Liverpool jersys particularly unfriendly.

See how long it takes the thread to be locked.

See the similarity?

This is the sound of nails being hit squarely on the head.

Bottle_of_Smoke

The OP's thread was stupid but he does have a point.

Appears to me that the "this is a ladies perspective forum" card usually gets pulled if a male is winning an argument or points out a flaw in the female poster's logic.

So in effect its a women and men who agree with those women's forum.

The problem is when as a guy you see a poster attack men or male attitudes with very flawed logic on a public site you frequent - it is difficult not to point out that flaw, because the poster is pretty much having a go at your reputation publically.

To do so you are saying the poster is wrong. Whilst I think this is technically okay by the charter, in practice it usually isn't if you're a male poster.

Silverfish

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The OP's thread was stupid but he does have a point.

Appears to me that the "this is a ladies perspective forum" card usually gets pulled if a male is winning an argument or points out a flaw in the female poster's logic.

So in effect its a women and men who agree with those women's forum.

The problem is when as a guy you see a poster attack men or male attitudes with very flawed logic on a public site you frequent - it is difficult not to point out that flaw, because the poster is pretty much having a go at your reputation publically.

To do so you are saying the poster is wrong. Whilst I think this is technically okay by the charter, in practice it usually isn't if you're a male poster.

You believe this happened in this thread the OP is referring to?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Silverfish wrote: »

You believe this happened in this thread the OP is referring to?

No, the frst four words of my post stated that thread was stupid. His point I agree with shoudl be the ladies lounge should clarify its position.

Silverfish

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No, the frst four words of my post stated that thread was stupid. His point I agree with shoudl be the ladies lounge should clarify its position.

How so, beyond what was clarified in this thread already by Ickle Magoo?

Ickle Magoo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The OP's thread was stupid but he does have a point.

Appears to me that the "this is a ladies perspective forum" card usually gets pulled if a male is winning an argument or points out a flaw in the female poster's logic.

So in effect its a women and men who agree with those women's forum.

The problem is when as a guy you see a poster attack men or male attitudes with very flawed logic on a public site you frequent - it is difficult not to point out that flaw, because the poster is pretty much having a go at your reputation publically.

To do so you are saying the poster is wrong. Whilst I think this is technically okay by the charter, in practice it usually isn't if you're a male poster.

I don't think it's as black and white as that - if the forum is primarily for the discussion between female posters then why the need to interject just to argue a point being made? Is it a shared discussion with an interest in what is being said or dog with a bone determined to throw as many whatabouteries into the mix as possible? Is the thread following the intended route as the OP wished and the female posters feel they don't have to defend or argue every experience they post about or is it being pushed & pulled off-topic by those who have very little interest in having discussions and being mindful of the ethos of the forum?

There are some posters who's idea of discussion is spamming the thread with argumentative and aggressively dismissive retorts until everyone else on thread looses the will to live and the very posters the forum is for are put off posting and reporting threads/PMing mods en masse. There are times when the moderators have to step in and remind posters that other forums are more appropriate for both that style and that angle of debate. While I appreciate that is going to make some posters feel their hands are tied, there are plenty of other forums available for any poster who wishes to have that kind of discussion in.

I think tLL position is clear & clearly outlined in the first line of the charter - it's primarily a place for the female posters of Boards to discuss issues from their perspective. That it also seems to attract a small body of male lurkers who just jump in feeling aggrieved that the forum dares to take a tiny corner of Boards to do exactly what it says on the tin (and charter) doesn't mean the position of the forum is unclear.

Wibbs

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Appears to me that the "this is a ladies perspective forum" card usually gets pulled if a male is winning an argument or points out a flaw in the female poster's logic.

Bollocks frankly. More than once I've pointed out flaws in women posters argument. I can name any number of male posters in there that have done similar and they weren't banned.

So in effect its a women and men who agree with those women's forum.

No, it's really not. But OK BoS lets say it is? It's the Ladies Lounge for gods sake. The clue is in the title. The Islam forum is for muslims and those who agree with Islam forum. Soccer is for soccerists and those who support soccer forum. Cycling is for cyclists and those who support cycling forum. How many times does this need to be pointed out? Seriously. It's getting really odd at this stage that it needs to be.

The problem is when as a guy you see a poster attack men or male attitudes with very flawed logic on a public site you frequent - it is difficult not to point out that flaw, because the poster is pretty much having a go at your reputation publically.

So you represent all men do you? Nice one. So the next time there's a rapist on the news, that's representative of you and me and our reputations as men? Seriously? Jeez Atlas that's some heavy load you got going there. I'll be honest it sounds like an excuse to dive in and argue to me(hey Ive done this myself). Let me put it another way, how often have you reported, or pointed out the flaws in sexist posts in the more ribald past threads in After Hours*? I can't recall you or any of the others who seem to have some weird issue with tLL doing so. Funny that.

Plus lets face it the chix on this site have to read drivel on an alarmingly regular basis about their attitudes, their looks and their sexuality and if there's just one place where they can say what the hell they like within the confines of Boards.ie policy, without having to justify it just because they have a fanny, then I'll defend their right to do so. This offends you, your "reputation" as a man, then start your own thread in tGC or humanities. Simples.

To do so you are saying the poster is wrong. Whilst I think this is technically okay by the charter, in practice it usually isn't if you're a male poster.

It's The LADIES lounge BoS. I really don't know how I can make that any clearer for some out there.




*NOT a dig at AH, one of my fave forums. Just in the past it could be a tad "get back in the kitchen bitches/Irish women are lumped unfriendly trolls" at times.

Micky Dolenz

Wibbs wrote: »

*NOT a dig at AH, one of my fave forums. Just in the past it could be a tad "get back in the kitchen bitches/Irish women are lumped unfriendly trolls" at times.

:eek:, we are watching you.


Back to the OP, if you don't like the tone of a forum, don't go in there.

In my own limited experience of tLL, they have always been pretty straight even when I did make a badly timed joke.

I do find some of the pretend outrage from some male poster hilarious though.

Wibbs

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think it's as black and white as that - if the forum is primarily for the discussion between female posters then why the need to interject just to argue a point being made?

IMHO While women can and do similar it's more a debate tactic on the male end of the spectrum. That makes it sound deliberate and conscious. It's not, or usually not. It's not "wrong" either, just a different way of debating. Listen to conversations and discussions in RL. Step back and you tend to see women discuss and share and argue, but it's less point based. Men tend to make statements. There's a lot less sharing going on and they tend to bring less personal experience to the mix. They also get less personally involved in the outcome. This goes double for sensitive subjects. Not all men, nor all women follow this rigidly. Nor even follow this for every debate, but there are subtle diffs in how men and women in general tend to debate a contentious topic. I think this is where some blokes are having difficulties with the forum at times.

I say this because I can be really guilty of the "male" for want of a better word approach. I've learned over the years to debate a lot less that way. The only time I do nowadays is when I smell fanaticism or bullying in someone or a subject. Then I'll beat them down as hard as I can. No prisoners. I should just ignore them mind, so mae culpa, but I'm trying real hard Ringo.

My 3cents anyway

Micky Dolenz wrote:

we are watching you.

Take a number beeatch *snaps fingers*

efb

I find TLL brill! Especially the male forn appreciation thread! Never been infracted- lots of thanks!

Lady specific topics I avoid because Im not a lady!

Ickle Magoo

Wibbs wrote: »

IMHO While women can and do similar it's more a debate tactic on the male end of the spectrum. That makes it sound deliberate and conscious. It's not, or usually not. It's not "wrong" either, just a different way of debating.

I appreciate that - and I'd have to add sometimes it is deliberate and very much conscious, despite the oft trotted out protestations and feigned innocence.

Look, I love a bit of meaty debate but I also have the cop on to understand that aggressively or dismissively picking apart a religious post on the christianity forum regarding someone's experiences and views of religion as they see it is going to get short shrift. As is a tiny post count on the Man Utd supporters thread made up purely of interjections to argue experiences and views of Man Utd by those supporters - even if it is for the purposes of an even debate which takes into account all football teams or means I can't vociferously defend my own team.

Why this is understood almost universally on other forums but seems to cause such difficulties to a select few in tLL is the real mystery.

liah

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

"this is a ladies perspective forum" card usually gets pulled if a male is winning an argument or points out a flaw in the female poster's logic.

This is the thing, BoS.

Too many posters treat discussions as something to 'win,' a competition in which the opposition must be obliterated.

It seems to me that very few female posters are interested in this particular style of debate, and this is where the massive rift is coming in.

Speaking for myself, anyway, I am dead sick of it. Absolutely dead sick of it. There's certain posters who have absolutely no desire to actually discuss things, or see other people's perspectives, or have any degree of empathy for another person's opinion - no, they just want to win. All the time. And they will do absolutely whatever it takes to do so.

They nitpick, they derail, they intentionally misinterpret, they claim other poster's feelings invalid, they disrespect, they laugh, they jeer, they belittle, they carry over grudges, they generalize, they use aggressive posting styles, and ultimately, they are completely unrelenting and completely unaware of just plain when to stop. So what happens is, they drive literally everyone out of the debate, which they now think they've won - but really, nobody could stand to stay in the thread anymore because it was completely ruined.

I used to be like this, and I used to take the bait, but I'm done with it now. If people want to think I've dropped out of a debate because they've won, then by all means - but nine times out of ten, it's because I can't be arsed arguing with someone who only wants to tear down the other person's side rather than have a productive, informative, and respectful debate.

And that makes me sad as hell.

Midnight_EG

I was going to start a new thread on this, but I suppose I'll throw it in here

Wibbs, I'm not picking on you, just quoting you because you said what I wish to raise

Wibbs wrote: »

I see it this way. It's the Ladies Lounge. A forum for "the discussion of topics from a woman's point of view as the first line in the charter states. Since 1) you're not a lady

The bolded part shows what I want to talk about.

If it's such a woman orientated forum, then why let males moderate, or in fact...why let males even post?

Morag

Because there are wonderful male posters who post taking part in the forum adding to it with out causing disruption and what is the point in excluding them cos a few posters get their boxers in a twist?

Midnight_EG

Sharrow wrote: »

Because there are wonderful male posters who post taking part in the forum adding to it with out causing disruption and what is the point in excluding them cos a few posters get their boxers in a twist?

It goes against what Wibbs said though, that it's a place for discussion from a females point of view, and then made a point of telling OutlawPete that he wasn't, in fact, a woman. To me that sounds like 'post if you're female, remain quiet if you're male'.

Morag

It depends how and whya male poster posts.

Every forum has it's tone and ethos, the faith forums do not exclude those who are not of a certain faith from posting in them as along as the poster is respectful and does not derail or dominate the discussions, it's the same with the Ladies Lounge.

There are none parents who contribute to the parenting forums, but they are expected not to derail discussions, dominate the forum or to use it to have a go at parents. It's that simple.

The most of forums on this site have a majority of male posters due to the sites demographics and it is nice to post in a forum where that is not the case.
If you don't like the premise of the forum don't post there.
If you can't amending your posting/debating style then don't post there.
Female posters get banned from there too y'know not just male ones.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Wibbs wrote: »

Bollocks frankly. More than once I've pointed out flaws in women posters argument. I can name any number of male posters in there that have done similar and they weren't banned.

What I said doesn't imply you don't point out flaws. I read more than post there but it really does appear that if there's a long thread and its getting a bit heated yet reasonable - the warnings come out about it being a ladies perspective forum. Thats not really very boards.ie.

No, it's really not. But OK BoS lets say it is? It's the Ladies Lounge for gods sake. The clue is in the title. The Islam forum is for muslims and those who agree with Islam forum. Soccer is for soccerists and those who support soccer forum. Cycling is for cyclists and those who support cycling forum. How many times does this need to be pointed out? Seriously. It's getting really odd at this stage that it needs to be.

Following from above. If say on the Islam forum they were constantly making generalisations about Christians you'd have Christians coming over arguing with them. I'd imagine the Islam charter prevents attacks on Christianity for that reason. And I've seen long discussions there with people arguing about Islam who aren't Muslims. (admittedly that was a while back. not looked there recently)

Its more complicated with the ladies lounge and feminism for obvious reasons. So take threads like "men didn't stand up for me against sexist boss I'm sick of them all" For men who don't benefit from sexism toward women this is like a red rag to a bull.

Yet I'm not entirely sure I can criticise the poster of that thread because of the somewhat vague rules in the charter

So you represent all men do you? Nice one. So the next time there's a rapist on the news, that's representative of you and me and our reputations as men? Seriously? Jeez Atlas that's some heavy load you got going there.

not quite what I meant like. Just its a busy public forum. You click on the main boards page and there's a controversial thread. You may click on it before you even realise its in the ladies lounge. Someone's posting sexist rubbish. Yet if you go in to criticise it you're not sure if there's a risk you're breaking the rules

I'll be honest it sounds like an excuse to dive in and argue to me(hey Ive done this myself). Let me put it another way, how often have you reported, or pointed out the flaws in sexist posts in the more ribald past threads in After Hours*? I can't recall you or any of the others who seem to have some weird issue with tLL doing so. Funny that.

Well that's a good point. I care more about statements made on TLL because its a more serious forum than after hours. Its a different platform.

Plus lets face it the chix on this site have to read drivel on an alarmingly regular basis about their attitudes, their looks and their sexuality and if there's just one place where they can say what the hell they like within the confines of Boards.ie policy, without having to justify it just because they have a fanny, then I'll defend their right to do so. This offends you, your "reputation" as a man, then start your own thread in tGC or humanities. Simples.
It's The LADIES lounge BoS. I really don't know how I can make that any clearer for some out there.

I don't know what you're trying to get at by "having to justify it just because they have a fanny"

I mean the whole point of this site is its a discussion board. If you're going to give members a forum with public credibility yet limit what can be argued back against what is being claimed its sort of demeaning to those members

Anyway I have effectively done so. Since the feminist thread a few weeks back i decided not to post in any argumentative threads there. towards the end i think some posters and maybe even yourself were referring to me when talking about "certain posters just showing up to disrupt"

Bottle_of_Smoke

Silverfish wrote: »

How so, beyond what was clarified in this thread already by Ickle Magoo?

Basically I object to the idea that men in general can be criticised yet its not entirely clear if a man can then argue without breaking the rules.

Ickle Magoo

Midnight_EG,

The forum charter states it's primarily a place for the women of boards and while men are welcome, that's the primary purpose of the forum - I think it's more than a little disingenuous to infer that it's Wibbs making that distinction.

As Sharrow says, there are plenty of worthwhile male contributors to the forum - but what gets moderator attention is the drive-bys, those that are well known to have anything but a genuine interest in women's opinions and those that make no worthwhile contribution to the forum, don't enter into discussion but are only too happy to wade in if it means dragging a thread off-topic or playing tag-team trying to cling onto some semantic fringe irrelevance for the sake of having/causing an argument that usually has very little to do with the beef of the discussion at hand.

There are plenty of posters of both sexes capable of having an interesting, respectful and informative discussion in tLL - suggesting the forum shouldn't be or isn't welcoming to those posters just because a handful of others don't get it seems to be rather an over-reaction. Are atheists banned from the christianity forum despite the regular rabid atheist that annoyingly interjects and disrupts discussion on that forum? Or visa versa with religious folk in A&A?

I don't think it's any coincidence that we could literally reel off the names of those who have an issue with the forum and I could have put money on commenting in this thread. Nobody has a right to post in a particular forum - regardless of what bias or points are being made. Most forums have the kind of posts or posters they are aimed at quantified in some respect. If some have an issue with tLL, why post there? Why deliberately keep trying to fight the ethos of that particular forum? It's just getting decidedly odd at this stage.

Silverfish

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Basically I object to the idea that men in general can be criticised yet its not entirely clear if a man can then argue without breaking the rules.

Well, to be fair we do have it in the charter than generalisations of either gender are not welcome, and I have pulled many female posters up on it before. If I haven't, it is because I did not see the post.

Here:

There is an expected standard of effort when posting in this forum.
Lazy generalizations fall below this standard.
Comments regarding personality traits which begin with words like "women just want to" or "all men are" are never true, and never serve any purpose except to inflame other users who feel the need to post to object to them them.

Therefore, they will be regarded as flaming (posting a intentionally provocative post with the deliberate intention of bringing the thread off-topic) and users may be banned or infracted at the mods discretion.

I know the thread you are referring to as an example, and yes, the poster was warned for the generalisations.

Midnight_EG

Just to get back to what I originally asked

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Midnight_EG,

The forum charter states it's primarily a place for the women of boards and while men are welcome, that's the primary purpose of the forum - I think it's more than a little disingenuous to infer that it's Wibbs making that distinction.

It comes across as, from Wibbs post, that only women are welcome though, and that no men have an opinion on the forum. Telling someone they're not a woman is a bit of a childish thing to do, considering OutlawPete would be one of a few fair and respected posters on boards.ie as a whole rather than just being good in one or two forums. I'm not familiar with either TLL or TGC so I can't comment on whether one sex is a good idea or a bad idea in either forum, but to me it seems like TLL just wants to be for women and nobody else.

Also, I think of Wibbs as a brilliant person, never had a bad word to say about him and I don't mean to focus on him at all, just taking his post in a general view.


And back to another of my original posts, if being a woman is the point of TLL, then why have a male mod? Again, not aimed at Wibbs, just curiosity.

Links234

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Not all generalisations are a million miles away from the truth.

Then you should have no problem with women making generalisations about men, right? :cool:

Ickle Magoo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Basically I object to the idea that men in general can be criticised yet its not entirely clear if a man can then argue without breaking the rules.

Why not just report the post rather than jumping in to argue then? Extremists or crass & lazy generalities from either gender are not welcome and regularly earn warnings/infractions/bans.

We are sometimes in the rather strange position of having one side calling us men-hating feminazi's and the other claiming we are all misogynistic male mods who don't understand - we aim to fall somewhere in the middle but it's clearly not an exact science.

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Just to get back to what I originally asked


It comes across as, from Wibbs post, that only women are welcome though, and that no men have an opinion on the forum. Telling someone they're not a woman is a bit of a childish thing to do, considering OutlawPete would be one of a few fair and respected posters on boards.ie as a whole rather than just being good in one or two forums. I'm not familiar with either TLL or TGC so I can't comment on whether one sex is a good idea or a bad idea in either forum, but to me it seems like TLL just wants to be for women and nobody else.

Also, I think of Wibbs as a brilliant person, never had a bad word to say about him and I don't mean to focus on him at all, just taking his post in a general view.


And back to another of my original posts, if being a woman is the point of TLL, then why have a male mod? Again, not aimed at Wibbs, just curiosity.

Did you read my post? I think it covers all the points you are making, I'm not sure if you haven't spotted the point about all the other male posters on the forum or are just choosing to ignore it?

liah

I still can't figure out why it's such a baffling or offensive concept that ladies want to have ladies posting in the Ladies Lounge.

Nobody is saying men aren't allowed, just that men who refuse to respect the ladies' opinions aren't appreciated - I'm sure if a load of women kept going into tGC and twisting around every single thread to meet their agenda it wouldn't exactly go down well, either. I mean, come on, put it into perspective a little.

I could be way off the mark here, but a lot of women seem to post overall ideas, impressions, sentiments, abstract concepts, etc. and share, whereas a lot of men seem to post exact statements, look at everything very systematically, be literal, aggressive, direct, and hyper-focus on minute points. Women share, men compete or whatever. This seems to be what's causing the dissonance, so perhaps the men who tend to argue this way can try to keep in mind that, while in the Ladies Lounge, they should be mindful that there is a different preferred method of discussion?

Could just be me, I dunno. Just the way it's coming across to me.

dr.bollocko

How do I prove that I am female in this new age of female only posting?
I am a woman. So is wibbs.

Ickle Magoo

Exactly - apart from not being something the majority actually has an issue with, never mind wants; it would be impossible to implement.

Besides, if there are major changes to be made with regards to how the forum operates - surely that is for the regular posters to decide on?

Silverfish

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Just to get back to what I originally asked


It comes across as, from Wibbs post, that only women are welcome though, and that no men have an opinion on the forum. Telling someone they're not a woman is a bit of a childish thing to do, considering OutlawPete would be one of a few fair and respected posters on boards.ie as a whole rather than just being good in one or two forums. I'm not familiar with either TLL or TGC so I can't comment on whether one sex is a good idea or a bad idea in either forum, but to me it seems like TLL just wants to be for women and nobody else.

If this was the case, there'd be an argument for merging all of boards into one big forum and doing away with the individual forums.

I don't play golf, I don't expect the golf forum to cater for me if I just want to come in and criticise golfers.
I don't hunt, I don't expect the hunting forum to cater for me if I just want to argue with hunters.
I don't watch/play soccer, I don't expect the soccer forum to cater for me if I just want to ask them if they know how ridiculous they're being.

There are a lot of men posting on tLL, and you know, I've seen lots of other male posters assuming because they're posting there, that they are female, and commence arguing with them.

We shouldn't have to remove access for ALL men just to cater for the few who don't like the forum, the ethos of the forum, the idea of the forum, the posters in the forum, the topics that get discussed in the forum.

And back to another of my original posts, if being a woman is the point of TLL, then why have a male mod? Again, not aimed at Wibbs, just curiosity.

For checks and balances. Same way BGRH has had female mods, tGC has female mods, yet no-one bats an eyelid. Why is it again that having a male mod in tLL is questioned? Wouldn't it be worse if we didn't have a male mod?

Silverfish

dr.bollocko wrote: »

How do I prove that I am female in this new age of female only posting?
I am a woman. So is wibbs.

Dunno, perhaps you could post a picture of yourself butt naked in Eyre Square or something.

Do we have to think of everything?

Jimmy Garlic

Links234 wrote: »

Then you should have no problem with women making generalisations about men, right? :cool:

Men in general?.. Yes I would, for example if a lady said "all men are bastards" that would be a blanket generalisation . I didn't make a blanket generalisation about women, I didn't say "all women are.... ". I referred to women that wear those big aul sunglasses, it is my opinion that women who wear them are generally unfriendly and rude. If a women said men who tuck their tracksuit pants into their socks are generally scumbags, I would agree.

Otis Driftwood

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I'm not familiar with either TLL or TGC

Midnight_EG wrote: »

but to me it seems like TLL just wants to be for women and nobody else.

How precisely have you come to this conclusion given that you self admittedly arent familiar with tLL?

Midnight_EG wrote: »

I'm not familiar with either TLL or TGC so I can't comment on whether one sex is a good idea or a bad idea in either forum, but to me it seems like TLL just wants to be for women and nobody else.

There are a number of brilliant female members that post regularly in a number of different threads in tGC and I wouldnt want it any other way.However there have been a handful of female posters that posted there with the sole purpose of antagonising the regulars and trying to get a rise by posting crass or unfounded generalisations.

You know what happened to them?

They got banned,yet I dont see feedback threads from them asking why isnt tGC for male posters only.

Every forum on boards operates on one credence,that posters abide by the charter and post in the spirit of the forum.If people cant or dont do this how else could they be dealt with?

As a bloke,this thread is a fúcking embarrassment.

Wibbs

Silverfish wrote: »

For checks and balances. Same way BGRH has had female mods, tGC has female mods, yet no-one bats an eyelid. Why is it again that having a male mod in tLL is questioned?

This sums a lot of this up for me and IMHO it's because it's tLL. tLL gets almost constant low level stick from a small bunch of blokes. Hell at this stage I'm beginning to buy into the more paranoid end of the feminazi(tm) spectrum that suggests some men just can't stand women having their own thing.

Like this is really simple stuff for me. Dribbling on your keyboard, tongue sticking out with a blue crayon stuck up your right nostril simple. The ladies lounge.

Dunno, perhaps you could post a picture of yourself butt naked in Eyre Square or something.

It's freely available on some "specialised" well hidden sites, under the title of hotsugarbunsagaillimh.jpg.

tbh

If a girl starts a thread in tLL asking something like, say, the best sports bra to buy for someone with big boobs, there will be a dumb-ass "pics or gtfo" post and that post will be from a guy. If there's a thread on where to get large condoms started in tGC, there may be a stupid post but it will not be by a girl. There are guys who post in tLL who post because they want to meet girls, and they become real obvious real fast. Honestly, some of them might as well be hanging out outside the forum doing pushups or pulling wheelies on their bikes, it's embarrassing. On that score, the LL mods have a way harder time with lads than we do with girls, but the posts that'll get you banned in tLL will also get you banned in tGC. in fact, I'd say if you compared the banlists, a lot of the names would be in common because those posters have an axe to grind. The other thing is that there are just more blokes on boards so if 1% of the total population of posters are going to be banned, that's more blokes than girls.

At the end of the day, the contentious bans from the LL are for the same reasons as any other forum. Someone makes a post they think is funny, insightful and unique. They aren't willing to accept that sometimes, they just judge it wrong

Finally it may be worth pointing out that the rule about generalisations was copied from the GC. We hate that stuff too.

Stheno

tbh wrote: »

1. the posts that'll get you banned in tLL will also get you banned in tGC. in fact, I'd say if you compared the banlists, a lot of the names would be in common because those posters have an axe to grind.


2. Finally it may be worth pointing out that the rule about generalisations was copied from the GC. We hate that stuff too.

1. Exactly as tbh says, I read and post in tGC regularly and often see the same posters being banned from either forum

2. Again agree, funnily enough tGC forum calls out specifically that it is for discussion from a male point of view, and I've regularly seen women warned/banned due to their attitudes there.

Eerily similiar to tLL but I don't hear or see any feedback in that regard. In fact when posting on debate topics in tGC I frequently have to remind myself I am in tGC and post accordingly, and have done, while posting in accordance with tLL rules on similiar if not identical topics. In terms of generalisations, female posters are just as likely to get banned from tLL for this too, I know I've warned/banned posters for it.

I also don't get the "I didn't realise where I was" argument as a defence against posting inappropriately in a forum. It's clear as day!!!!! Look at the top of your reply and it will tell you straight away!!!!!

Threads such as the one the OP posted in and his response are clearly against the charter of tLL.

TheZohanS

Well if the recent thread in Helpdesk is anything to go by then tLL doesn't really want a different point of view if it comes from men. I see one poster who would not be a troll and makes fine posts and he's been accused of "whataboutry".

"Whataboutry" ffs, is nobody allowed to put forward a different point of view over there now? And this "ethos" I hear bandied about, is this "ethos" men can't disagree with what women post.

Is it not a discussion forum?

Can the ladies not engage in proper debate if alternative views are put forward?

When a poster in AH comes along and posts that Irish women are this or that it doesn't take very long for them to be called on any bs, why can't tLL do this too? Yes obviously the "make me a sammich" and "get back in the kitchen comments wouldn't be tolerated" there but to cut out all debate? That's just silly.

tbh

Zohan, when someone says "all x are y" - there is no debate. There is problematic heated refutation, there is pointing out the obvious for the millionth time and there are reported posts by the shedload, but there is no debate.

Silverfish

Because, quite simply, the forum is not a battleground for a war between the sexes.

It is not there for women to defend themselves against every wandering male who wants women in general to answer for the actions of some.

It's not for women to have to defend every post, experience, feeling or opinion to any guy who posts wanting to have a 'debate'.

To use an earlier analogy, the Golf forum is not a forum for golfers to explain, constantly, in every thread, why they do not play soccer instead. The hunting forum is not for every person who hunts to have to defend themselves against people who think they shouldn't shoot wickle bunnies.

It's not the meeting ground between the genders, it's a forum. For women.

dr.bollocko

The premise of this thread is too ridiculous to build decent feedback on. Even good points are going to be lost or wasted as the original question is so wide of the mark that it just puts everyone on the defensive.
(Which is unfair. The whole thread is kinda unfair if you had any knowledge of the nature of the ladies lounge as a forum.)

TheZohanS

tbh wrote: »

Zohan, when someone says "all x are y" - there is no debate. There is problematic heated refutation, there is pointing out the obvious for the millionth time and there are reported posts by the shedload, but there is no debate.

That's fair enough, when someone generalises like that I totally agree it's problematic, especially if the person is only looking to troll and if you have a fairly good idea that under no circumstances will they change their point of view or even acknowledge those of others as having some credence. However in the thread that Silverfish quoted the poster had the position that:

not all Irish girls are like this,but in the majority of cases it's true.What do ye think?

Now that's asking for some debate and the poster has even acknowledged that not all girls are like that.

Silverfish wrote: »

Because, quite simply, the forum is not a battleground for a war between the sexes.

It is not there for women to defend themselves against every wandering male who wants women in general to answer for the actions of some.

It's not for women to have to defend every post, experience, feeling or opinion to any guy who posts wanting to have a 'debate'.

To use an earlier analogy, the Golf forum is not a forum for golfers to explain, constantly, in every thread, why they do not play soccer instead. The hunting forum is not for every person who hunts to have to defend themselves against people who think they shouldn't shoot wickle bunnies.

It's not the meeting ground between the genders, it's a forum. For women.

I think that's being unfair, a proper analogy would be say in the Motors forum where someone says that they have received bad service from a garage and all garages are bad, you'll get posters saying that the garage they go to is excellent and that they need to find the right garage etc. same thing for makes of cars etc. It's discussion driven.

Stheno

TheZohan wrote: »

Well if the recent thread in Helpdesk is anything to go by then tLL doesn't really want a different point of view if it comes from men. I see one poster who would not be a troll and makes fine posts and he's been accused of "whataboutry".

"Whataboutry" ffs, is nobody allowed to put forward a different point of view over there now? And this "ethos" I hear bandied about, is this "ethos" men can't disagree with what women post.

Is it not a discussion forum?

Can the ladies not engage in proper debate if alternative views are put forward?

When a poster in AH comes along and posts that Irish women are this or that it doesn't take very long for them to be called on any bs, why can't tLL do this too? Yes obviously the "make me a sammich" and "get back in the kitchen comments wouldn't be tolerated" there but to cut out all debate? That's just silly.

Not if that view is taking an entirely contrary view from the OP and posting the old "what if this were a guy" point of view, no imo.

tLL is for women to discuss things from there perspective, I've personally had posters make assumptions as to outcomes when I've been involved in debate and given personal experience as examples, and those assumptions were wrong.

Similiarly (and to clarify, most if not all of these examples are prior to me being a mod there) I've experienced male posters interjecting into a thread and literally debating to a point where I have chosen to either ignore the thread or stay out of discussion, as they take hold of one point and debate it from their own male point of view, while refusing to acknowledge that there are/can be different perspectives.

Equally in tGC simliar has occured, and people have been warned/banned.

AH I can't comment on as I'm a. not familiar with the charter, b. don't post/read there much, and c. percieve that it's ethos is entirely different from tLL or tGC

stovelid

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

That is a valid opinion.

If that's the case, I'd hate to see your invalid ones.

liah

TheZohan wrote: »

"Whataboutry" ffs, is nobody allowed to put forward a different point of view over there now? And this "ethos" I hear bandied about, is this "ethos" men can't disagree with what women post.

Is it not a discussion forum?

Yep, it certainly is a discussion forum - but it is not a compete-to-win/beat-the-other-side-into-submission/take-the-piss/dismissive forum.

There's a wide variety of male posters who post basically daily on tLL with literally no problem whatsoever. Loads of them. This isn't about men not being allowed to have an opinion - this is about how certain men choose to display their opinion. And why they cannot possibly bring themselves to respect the ethos of the forum.

Can the ladies not engage in proper debate if alternative views are put forward?

We can and do, regularly, with posters who are respectful. You can't expect us to engage, repeatedly, when the opposite side refuses to listen and is only there because they want a war on women.

When a poster in AH comes along and posts that Irish women are this or that it doesn't take very long for them to be called on any bs, why can't tLL do this too? Yes obviously the "make me a sammich" and "get back in the kitchen comments wouldn't be tolerated" there but to cut out all debate? That's just silly.

But why should we have to put up with that BS in the first place on the only place on boards that is designated for women?

What is so horrific about just not wanting to put up with that kind of crap anymore? Really? There's more than enough places on boards where you can debate like that. Why is it necessary to make tLL the exact same?

And nobody has mentioned even once getting rid of men or cutting out debate except for men! I've not seen a single female yet say anything even remotely along those lines. So can you please tell us where you are getting it from?

Ickle Magoo

TheZohan wrote: »

I think that's being unfair, a proper analogy would be say in the Motors forum where someone says that they have received bad service from a garage and all garages are bad, you'll get posters saying that the garage they go to is excellent and that they need to find the right garage etc. same thing for makes of cars etc. It's discussion driven.

Given the demographics, it's more like the LGBT forum being bombarded with straight posters demanding explanations, debate and that their perspective is taken into account at every.single.turn.

Stheno

dr.bollocko wrote: »

(Which is unfair. The whole thread is kinda unfair if you had any knowledge of the nature of the ladies lounge as a forum.)

You've been in tLL? Or just disguised yourself at our beers?