Firearm unlawfully taken by Gardai

bakil

Has anybody seen page 32 in the Irish shooters digest written by Des Crofton from the NRGC in the june edition? has anything like this happened to any of you? and what would you do if it happened to you?

kildare.17hmr

link? scan? stick it up so we can all read it!

bakil

i would nt know where to start putting it up. if anyone out there can put up the page that would be great.

kildare.17hmr

type it out

Arcto

Your under pressure now Bakil, I too am intrigued :P

rowa

I had a quick look at the article you mention in the digest , its about some of the nonsense that i hoped we'd seen the back of in the 80's, some gardai behaving like firearms owners are unconvicted criminals.

dev110

lb1981

****ing bolloxes

Big Lar

Well done to him for holding his ground, Hope that Garda gets suspended

Sparks

This is what happens when you don't invest in sufficient training for rank-and-file Gardai and then deploy them in a country with a problem with gun crime that successive Ministers have not tackled, but dodged.

ormondprop

And this is what happens when somebody wih a good mix of ignorance and arrogance get some authority

Glensman

I could give you similar (less severe) instances of where I have been stopped by the PSNI and been told the ‘law’. When I have in turn told them the actual law they have disputed this, although in fairly good humour. The last time though the officer in charge tried to finish the encounter with “I’ll let you off this time.” I called him back and told him that he was letting me off with nothing as I was well within the law!
I was on another occasion stopped by Traffic Corps, who had NO idea the law or what to do, and admitted as much. In fairness to them they were fairly friendly and it was way too cold to hang about chatting!

bazza888

this is crazy!telling people you cant have the gun in a slip!!

bunny shooter

Isn't there something in the new legislation that states you can't have access to a firearm while driving a car etc? That it has to be securely locked in the boot?

Sparks

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

Centrefire pistols will be broken down into at least two component parts for transportation by car. The primary component will be locked into a secure steel box, which has been anchored to the vehicle by bolts, welding, or chains and locks. The vehicle will be fitted with an alarm and immobiliser. The secondary assembly will remain with the licence holder at all times.
A licence holder will never leave a useable pistol in an unattended vehicle regardless of the type of alarm fitted to the vehicle or duration of the stop.

cavan shooter

I am shooting long enough to have had encounters with various officers and there are more lads on here with similiar

1. Walking between fields with a broken o/u over my arm and the dog on the lead

---

was approached by a unmarked car and told to get into the field as Its against the law for me to be on the road, and that he could arrest me

2. Being stopped by the guards as I am stepping inside a field and asked if the o/u only took 2 shells


Everyone of these guards were young lads... If every person stopped like in the article above reported it as high as it could go then maybe we would get something done, the veiled threats are always the sickener.

FISMA

It is always best to err on the side of caution.

Usually, I stand up for the Gardai, because in general, they are fair. However, if this is true, changing stories that amount of times, then this Garda is just a knucklehead.

Were the Gardai in a truck or something? How could they see into, [assumedly] in the dark, between two moving vehicles, difficult at best.

However, these lads did not help their own case.

That's the point that a lot of us, such as EZ, try to often make. Sometimes it is not the law, but how the Gardai interpret the law.

I never give anyone the opportunity to interpret, my gun is always in the trunk, locked, with the bolt out and I will never grant anyone permission to search.

Also, I am no lawyer and I do not know the law in this case. It is my understanding that you are to have your license with you at all times when you have the firearm. Not a grant letter.

Thus, I could see where the Gardai could have confiscated this rifle with just cause. If it were in plain sight, why not ask to see the license?

However, when the license is produced the next day, the Garda needs to move on.

Sparks

I've heard of (both directly and indirectly) a number of cases like this that follow a set pattern:

• Young garda or gardai encounter a shooter with a licenced firearm.
• Said gardai confiscate said firearm and issue warnings regarding legality and so forth, usually quite perturbing the shooter involved.
• Shortly after the young gardai return to the station, firearm in tow, the shooter receives a phone call which ranges in tone from neutral to concilatory to outright contrite, informing them of when they may collect the firearm.
• The firearm is returned, either without incident or with some arbitrary abstract warnings that seem unrelated.

It's just my personal interpretation, you understand, but I have this mental image of an over-eager Garda running up to his Sergeant to show off his confiscation and receive praise for addressing the rising gun crime problem only to encounter either a metaphorical slap to the back of the head or a (possibly literal) facepalm or long sigh, followed by some informal training in relation to public relations and the firearms acts, and an order to return said firearm.

Incredibly unprofessional (but frankly, with training cutbacks, I lay the fault at the Minister's feet, not the AGS's), unbelievably irritating, definitely warranting further action, but perhaps not quite an organised conspiracy amongst all gardai to go after all licenced firearms holders.

homerhop

Friend of mine is going through a nasty seperation and usual struggle to see his child. Ex has made numerous claims against him all of which were investigated and proven false. Then one evening 2 cops arrived out claiming on such and such he threatened her with a gun and demanded he hand it over to them. Despite his partner and others saying it was not the case they took his and his brothers shotguns. There has never been a case against him, he has never been called to make a formal statement and even though he has asked for his and witness statements to be taken he has been told he will not be getting his gun back in the future.

FISMA

homerhop wrote: »

Friend of mine is going through a nasty seperation and usual struggle to see his child. Ex has made numerous claims against him all of which were investigated and proven false. Then one evening 2 cops arrived out claiming on such and such he threatened her with a gun and demanded he hand it over to them. Despite his partner and others saying it was not the case they took his and his brothers shotguns. There has never been a case against him, he has never been called to make a formal statement and even though he has asked for his and witness statements to be taken he has been told he will not be getting his gun back in the future.

Guilty until proven innocent. :mad:

This works both ways, especially in the states where cops have to carry guns. One word from the ex and his job is on the line. Fortunately, alimony is on the line as well.

rowa

homerhop wrote: »

Friend of mine is going through a nasty seperation and usual struggle to see his child. Ex has made numerous claims against him all of which were investigated and proven false. Then one evening 2 cops arrived out claiming on such and such he threatened her with a gun and demanded he hand it over to them. Despite his partner and others saying it was not the case they took his and his brothers shotguns. There has never been a case against him, he has never been called to make a formal statement and even though he has asked for his and witness statements to be taken he has been told he will not be getting his gun back in the future.

Yes but just because a guard says something it doesn't make it so, i have been told allsorts of barefaced porkies about firearms law over the years. A good solicitor would rip that case to shreds.

homerhop

he is up to his tonsils in fees about getting to see his kid, despite court orders and bench warrents for his ex, well ya know how that story goes. told him not to let it go but he said its the least of his worries at the moment.

bakil

thanks for all the posts. i v meet alot of gardai out lamping and i could nt speak highly enough of them. all they want to know is what your doing and when you tell them they leave it at that. telling us we re mad to be out at night after foxes all in good humor.we met a sergant one night when we were pulled in making tea and he stayed for a cup with us. but i fear the gardai are changing as the older members are leaving and been replaced by young men. who seem to think a uniform gives them the right to walk all over lawabiding people.

Longranger

The sh!tty thing is,if you kick up too much of a stink your local powers that be can make it VERY awkward for any future paperwork:(

kermitpwee

Sparks wrote: »

IIncredibly unprofessional (but frankly, with training cutbacks, I lay the fault at the Minister's feet, not the AGS's), unbelievably irritating, definitely warranting further action, but perhaps not quite an organised conspiracy amongst all gardai to go after all licenced firearms holders.

I understand where your coming from and my dealings with An Garda Siochana have always been good. I would be of the opinion that ignorance is no defense of the law and thus this can be applied to members of the force also. Members should know the law regardless of training, if it's available to the public then members of the force should also know regardless of whether they get training days or not. In my job I must keep up to date with proceedings and I often have to do this outside of work hours. If I didn't the **** would hit the fan and I would make wrong decisions such as the Gardai in question in this thread.

I am a public sector worker myself and understand that there may be drop in morale but if the information is available a man or woman should keep up to date regardless of training.

Arcto

2. Being stopped by the guards as I am stepping inside a field and asked if the o/u only took 2 shells

LOL!!

No officer, it's one of those new fancy ones!

Grizzly 45

homerhop wrote: »

Friend of mine is going through a nasty seperation and usual struggle to see his child. Ex has made numerous claims against him all of which were investigated and proven false. Then one evening 2 cops arrived out claiming on such and such he threatened her with a gun and demanded he hand it over to them. Despite his partner and others saying it was not the case they took his and his brothers shotguns. There has never been a case against him, he has never been called to make a formal statement and even though he has asked for his and witness statements to be taken he has been told he will not be getting his gun back in the future.

Another one!:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I've seen this happen in about a half dozen matrimonials I've dealt with over the years,and I always advise the male clients.GET THEM OUT of the house into storage ASAP until you have it all settled with your soon to be ex!!
Serious guys...There is no accounting for the bitchiness and nastiness that a woman can come up with in these already unpleasent proceedings..
The last thing you want is AGS showing up and demanding your guns as your ex darling wife has claimed you are threatning her and the kids..

You can try and argue it out in as I call it "the girls court" AKA family law courts at a later stage..Also it does show good tactics on your part..If they aint there how could you threaten her with them??
Move them out.Its not like you cant check them out to go shooting for the day or so and return them to the dealer.

Vizzy

Sparks wrote: »

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

Sparks,correct me if I am wrong here but the "The Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines as to the Practical Application and Operation of the Firearms Acts, 1925-2009. Issued in accordance with section 3A of The Firearms Act, 1925 as inserted by section 31 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006 " guidelines on the Garda website contain the following under;

There are considerable obligations on firearms license holders to ensure that firearms are stored safely and securely, and in particular whilst traveling to a shoot or to a hunt.
The following conditions may be considered appropriate (although the list is not an exhaustive one) for inclusion by a superintendent or chief superintendent when granting a firearms certificate:

• That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 60cm)/ammunition concealed on the person in public is not permitted at any time, save in circumstances where such possession and carriage on the person is necessary for a lawful purpose.
• In the case of self loading (semi automatic) pistols and revolvers consideration may be given to a requirement to dismantle each gun when not at the range where it is intended to be used with some necessary parts held at the range.
• During transport, firearms must always be stored in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
• No gun should be loaded with ammunition while traveling to or from a shoot.
• Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
• That the firearm is never left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.
• If it is necessary to stop and leave the vehicle, reasonable steps should be taken to ensure the safety of the firearm in question. It is a good idea to also place in the boot anything which might indicate that a firearm may be in the vehicle e.g. hunting clothing, stalking stick, hunting knife, binoculars, decoys, hunting hat etc. "

I know that they are not "the law" as such,but if they are the guidelines being given to the Supers,I suppose that we should at least be aware of them.They are common sense anyway and should apply to any valuable item in the car/jeep let alone a gun.

And no,I am not excusing what the Garda did in this case.

Sparks

They're not even guidelines for shooters Vizzy - the Commissioner is saying there that superintendents should apply those conditions as part of people's licences on an individual basis, while hinting that it ought to be every individual.

Rosahane, go for it. It'd make interesting reading - FOI requests often do.

Sparks

kermitpwee wrote: »

Members should know the law regardless of training, if it's available to the public then members of the force should also know regardless of whether they get training days or not.

The problem with that is that the Firearms Act is one of the most convoluted, arcane, badly written and poorly collated parts of Irish law. It's spread across eight Firearms Acts, a dozen or so other Acts from the Wildlife Acts to the Road Traffic Acts, two EU directives, upwards of fifty SIs, and who-knows-how-many guidelines, policies, memos and schedules. The Law Reform Commission was recommending a restatement of the Firearms Act in 2006 before Minister McDowell took an already messy Act and added 100% more mess to it, and before Minister Ahern did likewise in 2009. My best guess is that there are maybe two dozen people in total in Ireland who know the firearms act correctly - and most of those two dozen are not in the AGS, they're spread between the DoJ and the NGBs on the FCP.

Given that setup, I would tend to give a little more leeway than normal to rank-and-file gardai...
...but only a little more, mind! Silly buggers is silly buggers...

mac80

Thankfully I have had very few run ins with the AGS, but from listening to a mate of mine who is a Guard in Dublin, it seems anything goes, the actions I have seen this fellas get away with because he is a Guard is frightening ! :eek:

I'm 31 years old and have had a licenced gun since I 16/17 ( As soon as it was legal :rolleyes: )
I once got a phone call to bring my .22 Semi auto into the station to verify the serial number, being about 19 or 20 I thought nothing of it and "left" the gun there with the firearms officer expecting to get it back the next day if not the same day.
3/4 weeks past and I got pissed off ringing the guy to get my gun back and all I got was he's "off today" or "in court today"
I finally got hold of my gun in about 5 different bits :mad: and the barrel looked like it has been scuffed or got damp and was starting to rust.

In the end I had to bring it to a firearms dealer who put it back together as my local firearms dealer couldnt....
The gun never shot the same again and I soon sold it.

They gave no explanation or apology for breaking the gun other than we had a bit of trouble finding the serial.

I think a lot of the new cops have a bit of a chip on their shoulder and consider shooting as a "Country" or "Redneck" sport and look down their nose at shooters.

Tackleberrywho

On the Flip side, I have been dealing with AGS a long time and have to say that they were always very helpful and never caused me problems.

Longranger

How come when a thread goes on for more than a couple dozen posts,it turns into a barely related (if it all) argument:( If people want to argue about something so off topic,maybe they should do so via pm instead of filling up the thread with a two-way row that has bugger-all to do with the original posting. It puts other people off reading the thread who may have a valuale contribution to make.Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off,but lets stay on topic:)

cavan shooter

Like a good quality river there always is a meander or two...but it always straightens out at the end:D

Hartman

cavan shooter wrote: »

2. Being stopped by the guards as I am stepping inside a field and asked if the o/u only took 2 shells
.

Ive heard it all now....

The frightening thing is and I wouldn't be suprised if he had misheard this info from someone else in the station and not actually bothered to read the law on the number of cartridges a shotgun is allowed to hold.

You think education is expensive.... Try ignorance

kermitpwee

Longranger wrote: »

How come when a thread goes on for more than a couple dozen posts,it turns into a barely related (if it all) argument:( If people want to argue about something so off topic,maybe they should do so via pm instead of filling up the thread with a two-way row that has bugger-all to do with the original posting. It puts other people off reading the thread who may have a valuale contribution to make.Sorry if I'm pissing anyone off,but lets stay on topic:)

I dont see anything off topic here, the original post is highlighting that there have been cases where people have had guns taken off them unlawfully, des crofton then talks about the guards not knowing the law and that they were wrong. In this thread people have then came up with their own examples and that the guards should know the law, how is that going off topic?

Cass

kermitpwee wrote: »

I dont see anything off topic here, .........

The off topic posts have been moved to a more appropriate thread.

kermitpwee

Sparks wrote: »

The problem with that is that the Firearms Act is one of the most convoluted, arcane, badly written and poorly collated parts of Irish law. It's spread across eight Firearms Acts, a dozen or so other Acts from the Wildlife Acts to the Road Traffic Acts, two EU directives, upwards of fifty SIs, and who-knows-how-many guidelines, policies, memos and schedules. The Law Reform Commission was recommending a restatement of the Firearms Act in 2006 before Minister McDowell took an already messy Act and added 100% more mess to it, and before Minister Ahern did likewise in 2009. My best guess is that there are maybe two dozen people in total in Ireland who know the firearms act correctly - and most of those two dozen are not in the AGS, they're spread between the DoJ and the NGBs on the FCP.

Given that setup, I would tend to give a little more leeway than normal to rank-and-file gardai...
...but only a little more, mind! Silly buggers is silly buggers...

Well if there is such complication to these acts then AGS do indeed need training, it would be beyond any worker to spend the time necessary that you have indicated. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

kermitpwee

Ezridax wrote: »

The off topic posts have been moved to a more appropriate thread.

Jesus can I do any right on this thread! Thanks for clearing that up and apologies to previous poster that I had quoted!

Longranger

kermitpwee wrote: »

Jesus can I do any right on this thread! Thanks for clearing that up and apologies to previous poster that I had quoted!

No apologies necessary kermit, if I had a euro for every time I upset someone on this forum i'd be shooting a Sako TRG in .338 with a zeiss scope and all the trimmings! happy hunting:)

johngalway

bunny shooter wrote: »

Isn't there something in the new legislation that states you can't have access to a firearm while driving a car etc? That it has to be securely locked in the boot?

Sparks wrote: »

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

Ahm, I was/am under the same impression as BS That a firearm in transit can't be accessible by passengers or others not licensed to hold it.

Going to have a trawl through the awfulness that are that acts/guidelines later tonight if I get the time. Could be wrong, but that's what I thought...

johngalway

Commissioners Guidelines: (Not an act I know, I know. Points 3,4, and 6.)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61951357&highlight=passenger#post61951357

CHAPTER 3: CONDITIONS THAT MAY BE CONSIDERED RELEVANT WHEN GRANTING A FIREARM CERTIFICATE AND CASE LAW

Section 4(2)(g) of the Firearms Act 1925 as substituted by section 32 of the Criminal Justice Act, 2006 provides that when a firearms certificate is granted it may be subject to a condition or conditions. Furthermore in the case of Joseph Magee v Patrick Murray and Dennis Roche, a judgment delivered by Birmingham J. in the High Court on 24th November 2008, confirmed that the statutory scheme allows a superintendent to impose conditions when granting a firearms certificate under the Firearms Acts.

There are considerable obligations on firearms license holders to ensure that firearms are stored safely and securely, and in particular whilst traveling to a shoot or to a hunt.

The following conditions may be considered appropriate (although the list is not an exhaustive one) for inclusion by a superintendent or chief superintendent when granting a firearms certificate:

* That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 60cm)/ammunition concealed on the person in public is not permitted at any time, save in circumstances where such possession and carriage on the person is necessary for a lawful purpose.
* In the case of self loading (semi automatic) pistols and revolvers consideration may be given to a requirement to dismantle each gun when not at the range where it is intended to be used with some necessary parts held at the range.
* During transport, firearms must always be stored in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
* No gun should be loaded with ammunition while traveling to or from a shoot.
* Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
* That the firearm is never left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.
* If it is necessary to stop and leave the vehicle, reasonable steps should be taken to ensure the safety of the firearm in question. It is a good idea to also place in the boot anything which might indicate that a firearm may be in the vehicle e.g. hunting clothing, stalking stick, hunting knife, binoculars, decoys, hunting hat etc.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

No, there's nothing like that in the Acts, you're thinking of the guidelines laid down by the NASRPC in their proposal:

No, my CPO said it to me when he visited me to check my security too :eek:

I knew I read it somewhere too............thanks JG & Vizzy.

Those lads were in the wrong so ! Rifle in the car driving around .......................

Vizzy

Nice edit Bunny.
Thanks

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

No, my CPO said it to me when he visited me to check my security too :eek:
I knew I read it somewhere too............thanks JG.
Those lads were in the wrong so ! Rifle in the car driving around .......................

What JG's got there is the Commissioner's recommendations to Superintendents for conditions to put on someone's licence; if those conditions aren't on your licence, you're not required to adhere to them (though in most cases, people do most of those for common sense reasons). But the only place I know of where the carriage of firearms is covered in an Act is in the Road Traffic Act 1963, and that's covering public service vehicles, not private vehicles.

bunny shooter

Vizzy wrote: »

Nice edit Bunny.
Thanks

I nearly forgot ya by the time I got to end of the new posts

bakil

i asked the garda in charge firearms at my local station, he told me a firearm can be any where in a car as long as it is out of public view. unless stated on your licence.

tfox

on the topic of ill-informed guards the following happened to me a few years back

I had been out hunting with lurchers with my friend and my cousin on the cousins farm. We were in the process of closing a gate at the side of the road when a squad car drives by, stops, then backs up :rolleyes:

"What are you upto lads ?" we explain to him that we're hunting rabbits and foxes.

"where's your gun ?" - explain to him that we are just hunting them with the lurchers, dont have any guns with us.

"but where's your guns.....?" - explain to him slower in smaller words exactly how hunting with dogs works.

He looks at his with a bewildered look on his face, says something to his colleague, then turns and asks us - "is that legal ?" :eek::rolleyes::D

Half-cocked

tfox wrote: »

on the topic of ill-informed guards the following happened to me a few years back

I had been out hunting with lurchers with my friend and my cousin on the cousins farm. We were in the process of closing a gate at the side of the road when a squad car drives by, stops, then backs up :rolleyes:

"What are you upto lads ?" we explain to him that we're hunting rabbits and foxes.

"where's your gun ?" - explain to him that we are just hunting them with the lurchers, dont have any guns with us.

"but where's your guns.....?" - explain to him slower in smaller words exactly how hunting with dogs works.

He looks at his with a bewildered look on his face, says something to his colleague, then turns and asks us - "is that legal ?" :eek::rolleyes::D

Did he ask to see your dog license?;)

FISMA

bakil wrote: »

i asked the garda in charge firearms at my local station, he told me a firearm can be any where in a car as long as it is out of public view. unless stated on your licence.

Bakil,

Again, I do not know what the written law is here. If anyone has the statute number, please advise or ctrl-c, ctrl-v.

What the Garda told you is heresay and not much good, especially if he is wrong. I wonder if he would be willing to put what he said in writing?

If the Garda is wrong and you get busted, quoting him will not be much good.

To each his own. I for one always keep the rifle in the trunk.

Half-cocked wrote: »

Did he ask to see your dog license?

Thanks for the laugh this morning!

Norwayviking

Half-cocked wrote: »

Did he ask to see your dog license?;)

007 K9 with license to bite:D