How in the name of God, Are we going to pay for this Water/House tax?

RobitTV

Can someone please tell me where i am going to get 700 + euro to pay for this stupid water tax!

daily mail said it could cost more then 700 euro.

And then there's the household tax, which probaly will cost around the same.

The Goverment is like a dictator, They might agree with it.

But we Dont!

Next they will be taxing us On how many times we open our car door's, And our House door's.

will you be able to pay for it?

srsly78

Yes, this is still a low tax country. Only people foolish enough to take out ludicrous mortgages have trouble.

PseudoFamous

RobitTV wrote: »

daily mail said it could cost more then 700 euro.

There's your problem.

Manach

Define low tax, as in a historical context or a wider European one, please?

srsly78

Manach wrote: »

Define low tax, as in a historical context or a wider European one, please?

Both. I moved back here from Germany in 2009.

People on welfare are exempt from these new charges aren't they?

RichardAnd

OP, you need to calm down and look at the situation with a clear head. Otherwise, you'll just get yourself into a state and nothing will seem concise.

First of all, don't pay any heed to the Daily Mail, it's a rag like most of the news papers on sale in this country. At this moment in time, there seems to be nothing set in stone about the house hold change and like wise, there seems to be nothing confirmed about water charges either.

For now, we only know that these charges are on the cards and nothing more besides. Don't worry yourself about something until you know it to be true.

danbohan

RobitTV wrote: »

Can someone please tell me where i am going to get 700 + euro to pay for this stupid water tax!

daily mail said it could cost more then 700 euro.

And then there's the household tax, which probaly will cost around the same.

The Goverment is like a dictator, They might agree with it.

But we Dont!

Next they will be taxing us On how many times we open our car door's, And our House door's.

will you be able to pay for it?

people 50 miles from dublin manage to pay £2500 per year in water charges and property/poll tax , wages are lower , by 2016 expect to be paying around 3000 euro per year per average house . get used to it !

dlofnep

srsly78 wrote: »

Only people foolish enough to take out ludicrous mortgages have trouble.

Eh, not really. There are alot of people struggling to pay bills, through no fault of their own.

srsly78

They should go on welfare then. The current system punishes people in low wage jobs.

ei.sdraob

srsly78 wrote: »

Both. I moved back here from Germany in 2009.

People on welfare are exempt from these new charges aren't they?

Germany etc is a high tax, high services state

we are about to become (already are) a high tax > low services "state" (yes in commas) so there is no point comparing

srsly78

Our welfare is a LOT higher than Germany, yet our taxes are a lot lower. Yes it's not fair at all, I can see why ze Germanz are so bitter.

Serious answer to the OP: You will have to reduce your standard of living. This is what austerity means. No more holidays or lottery tickets, more shopping in lidl. More belt-tightening.

Now if you will excuse me I have some shirts to buy in Paris.

superfish

complete joke I get more limescale than water one thing is for sure im not paying a penny for it !!

srsly78

If they just called it another "income levy" would you object as much?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Theres going to be an organised campaign of non-payment.

srsly78

I don't want to pay my taxes either but Mountjoy doesn't look so appealing. Safety in numbers tho?

RichardAnd

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Theres going to be an organised campaign of non-payment.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Irish up to now, have been far too concerned with begrudging each other for various reasons to unite in any meaningful way against any of the number of taxes being levied against us.

I full expect the water charges to see no more opposition than a few live line calls and whining down the pub.

Amhran Nua

srsly78 wrote: »

Our welfare is a LOT higher than Germany, yet our taxes are a lot lower. Yes it's not fair at all, I can see why ze Germanz are so bitter.

I really wish people would stop pointing at Germany and the Scandinavian countries as the gold standard in taxation models. Here's why Germany needs to tax people to the hilt:

• The Bundeswehr currently has 247,100 active troops excluding 355,000 regular reserve
• 91 attack helicopters
• Over 200 other support helicopters
• 2350 Leopard main battle tanks
• 2100 Marder Infantry fghting vehicles
• Tens of thousands of other fighting vehicles of various designations and purposes, including artillery, self propelled howitzers, missile systems and anti aircraft platforms
• 47 surface vessels, 10 submarines, 43 auxiliary vessels, 55 aircraft in the Deutsche Marine
• 454 aircraft in the Luftwaffe including over 200 modern fighter bombers

And you find the same picture replicated all across Scandinavia. Mostly useless extremely expensive military forces. Also Germany incurs a lot of costs that Ireland doesn't like subsidising its listing coal mining industry, among other quite dubious cost items. That we choose to put it into welfare rather than military force is to our credit.

That's not to say there aren't a lot of areas where savings could be made, of course there are, but saying Ireland is a low tax destination ignores a lot of basic realities.

HellFireClub

The only people in this country who are organised in terms of organised trade unionism, to protest, have been bought off and completely protected from scale of austerity that a lot of other people have had to adapt to.

You won't see an unemployed person protesting, first of all the 1.85 Euro into town by bus or Luas is the price of your 2 litre jug of milk for the week...

Seriously, do you think I'd stand on O' Connell Street again to listen the likes Jack O' Connor or David Begg on their respective salaries linked to the very top tier of the public service, and I mean up there with a secretary general of a government department or High Court judges, trying to tell me how they are struggling to cope on their 124K plus expenses salaries and can't afford to take a pay cut???

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/siptu-boss-refuses-cut-to-8364124000-pay-1915673.html

dan_d

There's no point drawing comparisons to anywhere else unless you're comparing like-with-like.

Compare with Germany and Scandinavia all you like, but firstly, multiply our population by the factor it would take to reach their population sizes. And then extrapolate everything else. We pay X amount now to fund whatever - if we were in Germany, there would be this many people, so multiply X by a factor to get a "comparison" with Germany.

Basic maths....and we all know where maths features in the psyche of many people in this country...

You can look at say our health system and common sense would tell you there's a problem - you don't need a comparison with anywhere else. Bigger budgets every year, and beds being closed down??? Alarm bells, everywhere.

As for the OP - the Daily Mail is not a reliable source. I don't agree with all these taxes, but I sure as hell wouldn't be taking my info from the Daily Mail.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

RichardAnd wrote: »

I wouldn't be so sure. The Irish up to now, have been far too concerned with begrudging each other for various reasons to unite in any meaningful way against any of the number of taxes being levied against us.

I full expect the water charges to see no more opposition than a few live line calls and whining down the pub.

The Socialist Party is already calling for non-payment. How successful this will be is up to the people of Ireland.

srsly78

Amhran Nua wrote: »

forever wrong

Spectacularly incorrect. Germany has a relatively small military compared to countries like the UK and France (hello nuclear arsenal?). A much better response would be to point out the +5% solidarity tax to rebuild East Germany, an income levy that makes our current angst about water tax pale in comparison.

Sorry for dragging offtopic. Some figures here -> http://www.visualeconomics.com/how-countries-spend-their-money/

Amhran Nua

srsly78 wrote: »

Spectacularly incorrect. Germany has a relatively small military compared to countries like the UK and France (hello nuclear arsenal?).

Germany has a huge force with extremely expensive hardware relative to Ireland. That is the point, srsly.

srsly78 wrote: »

A much better response would be to point out the +5% solidarity tax to rebuild East Germany, an income levy that makes our current angst about water tax pale in comparison.

That would be one of the other costs that Ireland doesn't have, which I mentioned. So saying that the Germans are annoyed that our taxes are too low is a problem with the perception of the Germans. What works for them doesn't work for everyone, or for us. Cut down all the built up waste and we can talk about higher taxes then.

HellFireClub

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

The Socialist Party is already calling for non-payment. How successful this will be is up to the people of Ireland.

In fairness, if you use the roads to drive, you pay road tax, if you use ESB, you get a bill for it, if you get your rubbish picked up and brought to the dump, you pay for it, why should water usage be accounted for any differently???

I'm dead against a property tax but water seems to be fair game to me. People don't appreciate anything that is given for free...

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

HellFireClub wrote: »

In fairness, if you use the roads to drive, you pay road tax, if you use ESB, you get a bill for it, if you get your rubbish picked up and brought to the dump, you pay for it, why should water usage be accounted for any differently???

I'm dead against a property tax but water seems to be fair game to me. People don't appreciate anything that is given for free...

Its a new burden on people who are already struggling with government taxes and cuts.

catbear

A big thing for people to get their head around is that a lot of government services that are now proposed to funded by rates were kept ticking over by money borrowed from the future, stamp duty on 35/40 mortgages etc. That's went three years ago hence our need to fill the gap with borrowing. Any debt forgiveness will have to be matched by acceptance of sustainable service charges that can't be given away again in populist elections. It's not easy to admit for many but the property bubble was a self delusional scam funded by the tomorrows wages and now that bill has arrived.

HellFireClub

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Its a new burden on people who are already struggling with government taxes and cuts.

I hear ya but it's something that has essentially been given for free for a long time. I remember punitive local authority rates on small businesses that are still in place, people need to learn that if they use it, then they get the bill for it...

Irishgoatman

With regards to the forthcoming water charges I would like to throw a few thoughts out to people.

All the water that arrives through pipes to peoples houses costs money in one way or another.
The reservoirs have to be maintained, a purification plant has to be built and maintained and the pipe work has to be maintained.
People expect to have water that is fit to drink as well as for all other uses.

This is all very expensive so where do the people, who think that the water should be free, think the money to pay for this comes from?.
Well, the money comes, ultimately, from the government.
Where does the government get the money from?.
They get it from the tax payers.
Now this is were I would ask people to think this through.
If you, a tax payer, have gone to the expense of having a well bored on your property, because there are thousands of people who do not have access to a piped supply in rural areas, and therefore have your own, private, supply of water, you are still paying, through your taxes, towards the cost of the water that all these other people think they should not have to pay for!.
Is this fair?.
I don't think so.
There are also a lot of people in this country who already have to pay for their water through local Water Schemes, and their taxes still go towards the costs mentioned above, so why should others not have to pay their share of the cost.

Having said all this, I believe that the annual charge should be reasonable, it should not come in until meters have been installed and help/subisidies should be put in place for those who are really struggling. But of course this could mean the dreaded "Means testing", which a lot of people are against.

keithclancy

Heres an example of someone earning 50k / year as a Single Person with 0 Dependants.

Domestic Tax Calculation Summary
Personal Information
Country: Ireland
Region:
Filing Status: Single
Total Number of Dependents: 0
Date: 06-Jun-2011
Net Salary Calculation
Currency: Euro
Gross Income: 50,000
National Tax: (10,312)
Regional Tax: 0
Social/Medical Tax: (1,736)
Other Taxes: (2,819)
Net Income: 35,133

Domestic Tax Calculation Summary
Personal Information
Country: Netherlands
Region:
Filing Status: Single
Total Number of Dependents: 0
Date: 06-Jun-2011

Net Salary Calculation
Currency: Euro
Gross Income: 50,000
National Tax: (9,793)
Regional Tax: 0
Social/Medical Tax: (7,126)
Other Taxes: 0
Net Income: 33,081

Domestic Tax Calculation Summary
Personal Information
Country: Belgium
Region:
Filing Status: Single
Total Number of Dependents: 0
Date: 06-Jun-2011

Net Salary Calculation
Currency: Euro
Gross Income: 50,000
National Tax: (14,258)
Regional Tax: 0
Social/Medical Tax: (6,502)
Other Taxes: (1,472)
Net Income: 27,768

Domestic Tax Calculation Summary
Personal Information
Country: Germany
Region:
Filing Status: Single
Total Number of Dependents: 0
Date: 06-Jun-2011

Net Salary Calculation
Currency: Euro
Gross Income: 50,000
National Tax: (10,037)
Regional Tax: 0
Social/Medical Tax: (9,924)
Other Taxes: (552)
Net Income: 29,487

Social / Healthcare is a fair whack of your income.

Not taking into Account Tithe (Catholic Tax for example, as this varies from Region to Region)

Amhran Nua

keithclancy wrote: »

Not taking into Account Tithe (Catholic Tax for example, as this varies from Region to Region)

Can you give us a brief summary of Irish government expenditure in the years 2000 to 2010 inclusive, and then highlight the benefits this massive expenditure increase has brought?

keithclancy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Can you give us a brief summary of Irish government expenditure in the years 2000 to 2010 inclusive, and then highlight the benefits this massive expenditure increase has brought?

I don't understand how that relates to the German Tithe Tax for Catholics ???

Amhran Nua

keithclancy wrote: »

I don't understand how that relates to the German Tithe Tax for Catholics ???

Can you just post up the quick summary as requested? While comparing tax rates it seems salient to compare what it's being spent on.

Speaking of which, if people think the new water rates are actually going into water maintenance I've a bridge to sell them.

DoesNotCompute

srsly78 wrote: »

Yes, this is still a low tax country. Only people foolish enough to take out ludicrous mortgages have trouble.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Myself and my wife have a modest mortgage, but only one of us is working, on an average salary. These water charges and property tax are going to bleed us dry. The cost of living (insurance, public transport, shopping, health services, etc) still has a long way to go before coming back down to pre-boom levels.

srsly78

No offense but it sounds like you overextended yourself. I would contend that our ridiculous welfare (esp rent allowance) has a bit part in high prices tho.

DoesNotCompute

danbohan wrote: »

people 50 miles from dublin manage to pay £2500 per year in water charges and property/poll tax , wages are lower , by 2016 expect to be paying around 3000 euro per year per average house . get used to it !

wages are lower in the UK because the cost of living is lower in the UK.

Also many companies in London provide extra allowances/wages to workers in the London area because rents, Council Tax and/or water charges are through the roof there.

Irishgoatman

keithclancy wrote: »

Heres an example of someone earning 50k / year as a Single Person with 0 Dependants.

So, according to these figures given by keithclancy, we are better off in Ireland?.

We also need figures for inflation, fuel etc etc in order to get a true picture.

This still doesn't change the views I put forward in my previous posting re: water charges, which I thought this thread was mainly about.:)

Solair

srsly78 wrote: »

Our welfare is a LOT higher than Germany, yet our taxes are a lot lower. Yes it's not fair at all, I can see why ze Germanz are so bitter.

Serious answer to the OP: You will have to reduce your standard of living. This is what austerity means. No more holidays or lottery tickets, more shopping in lidl. More belt-tightening.

Now if you will excuse me I have some shirts to buy in Paris.

I'm trying to find some evidence of this:

Total German welfare spending 754 billion (2009) (Source DW : http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,4491835,00.html)
Total Irish welfare spending 21.2 billion

Germany spend per capita based on a population of 81.8 million : €9,217
Ireland spend per capita, based on a population of 4.45 million : €4,764

i.e. Irish welfare spending's actually approximately half of what Germany spends.

Can people please check facts before posting utter nonsense and making daft claims about Irish welfare spending.

Most Western European countries spend significantly more on welfare than we do.

If you want to take the absolute minimum German payment and the normal Irish payment, maybe you can get some spectacular differences. However, the overall package in Germany is way bigger than Ireland and the services and welfare levels are basically twice as good. Actually probably more so, because the German cost of living is much lower and there are other services which make their state supports much more effective e.g. in health, social housing and education.

I am really getting sick and tired of this kind of rhetoric being thrown around without anything to support it at all.

Our welfare system's actually pretty mean given the cost of living.
Our health system's crap and our education system's not all that great either i.e. no sports facilities, poor buildings, lack of arts, lack of subject choice, no psychological support, libraries etc.

This is one of the least socialist countries in Europe and resembles some of the more socialist parts of the United States e.g. Massachusetts in many more respects than it does most of Western Europe when it comes to provision of services, health and welfare.

There's a total b/s agenda of trying to slash what are pretty meagre payments in the Irish system.

Despite all the hype and spin, Ireland has one of the worst levels of child poverty and general poverty in the developed countries of the EU and it has done very little to improve that situation right through the boom years.

Our property sector and banks have cost us unimaginable amounts of money not only through the bale outs, but also through excessive costs placed upon the Irish economy through high property costs, high rental costs on businesses etc etc

Yet, despite all that we prioritise paying off these social leeches i.e. the banks, speculators and developers while basically opting to starve the most vulnerable in society.

This country really needs to get its priorities right or we will have a revolution all over again. This is turning back to the same kind of mentality that brought us the famines of the 1800s!

We might not starve this time, but we will certainly have dire poverty, high crime, social collapse and mass emigration if we are not careful!

You can lap up what right wing, xenophobic German tabloids are saying with makey-up non-fact based statistics, or you can do some basic analysis and actually start talking facts about the Irish economy and social welfare system!

srsly78

keithclancy wrote: »

I don't understand how that relates to the German Tithe Tax for Catholics ???

Just a minor point: it's "kirche steuer" - Church Tax. All religions pay it. Just in case anyone that Catholic's were being discriminated against :pac: Also it's optional, just don't expect to avail of religious facilities if you opt out.

@solair: Good man. Apples and oranges tho, welfare covers a LOT of stuff. Compare our dole to their dole for example. Also note we have medical card, they don't. Everyone in Germany pays Health Insurance as an extra tax, so this would explain a lot of the difference.

Amhran Nua

Solair wrote: »

I am really getting sick and tired of this kind of rhetoric being thrown around without anything to support it at all.

But sure what, there's no target so weak that the bearded brethren won't hold it up as a human shield.

Irishgoatman

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Can you just post up the quick summary as requested? While comparing tax rates it seems salient to compare what it's being spent on.

Speaking of which, if people think the new water rates are actually going into water maintenance I've a bridge to sell them.

Mony is always being spent on maintenance. All the burst water mains of last winter didn't repair themselves.:D
Tax payers money was used.

charlemont

srsly78 wrote: »

Just a minor point: it's "kirche steuer" - Church Tax. All religions pay it. Just in case anyone that Catholic's were being discriminated against :pac: Also it's optional, just don't expect to avail of religious facilities if you opt out.

@solair: Good man. Apples and oranges tho, welfare covers a LOT of stuff. Compare our dole to their dole for example. Also note we have medical card, they don't. Everyone in Germany pays Health Insurance as an extra tax, so this would explain a lot of the difference.

You can also opt out if you dont use the churches services, ie weddings, funeral etc.

keithclancy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Can you just post up the quick summary as requested? While comparing tax rates it seems salient to compare what it's being spent on.

Speaking of which, if people think the new water rates are actually going into water maintenance I've a bridge to sell them.

But for the Netherlands as an example there is a House Tax, Water Tax, Water Protection Tax and Metered Water charge.

The Water Tax - Covers the infrastructure
The Water Protection Charge -goes into such things as the Zuiderzee Project and Water Defences.
Then you pay for your Water / per Cubic Meter.

Thats not included in the calculation I included previously.

100s of Millions of Euros worth of Water Infrastructure (Treatment, Defence and Supply) has been paid for via the NDP (Which is part funded by the EU)

E.G:
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?Docid=2212&mn=&nID=&UserLang=EN&CountyID=27&StartDate=1+January+2011

Personally I prefer to pay directly for what I use rather than for what everyone uses, the current system in Ireland isn't fair, your paying the same whether you have a bath or a shower

The Household charge is pretty much standard, i.e. same as Council Rates in the UK or the Housing Tax to the Gemeente in Belgium / The Netherlands or the City Tax to the Laundhauptstadt in Germany.

Amhran Nua

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Mony is always being spent on maintenance. All the burst water mains of last winter didn't repair themselves.:D
Tax payers money was used.

Great, so lets repair all the pipes which are leaking half their potable water into the bogs and fields of Ireland, then curtail the water tax or reduce it to the relative pittance that annual water maintenance requires, thereby doubling the available clean fresh water. I'd have no problem with paying that for a few years.

Amhran Nua

keithclancy wrote: »

But for the Netherlands as an example there is a House Tax, Water Tax, Water Protection Tax and Metered Water charge.

The Water Tax - Covers the infrastructure
The Water Protection Charge -goes into such things as the Zuiderzee Project and Water Defences.
Then you pay for your Water / per Cubic Meter.

Thats not included in the calculation I included previously.

100s of Millions of Euros worth of Water Infrastructure (Treatment, Defence and Supply) has been paid for via the NDP (Which is part funded by the EU)

E.G:
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?Docid=2212&mn=&nID=&UserLang=EN&CountyID=27&StartDate=1+January+2011

Personally I prefer to pay directly for what I use rather than for what everyone uses, the current system in Ireland isn't fair, your paying the same whether you have a bath or a shower

The Household charge is pretty much standard, i.e. same as Council Rates in the UK or the Housing Tax to the Gemeente in Belgium / The Netherlands or the City Tax to the Laundhauptstadt in Germany.

I don't care what is standard in other countries. I'll ask you again, can you give us a brief summary of Irish government expenditure in the years 2000 to 2010 inclusive, and then highlight the benefits this massive expenditure increase has brought?

srsly78

Taxes have to go up. Welfare and public pay have to come down. Anyone that says otherwise is living in lalaland.

But yes dressing things up as water charges etc is just silly, they should whack on +10% tax and have done with it.

WIZE

This Water Tax should only Apply if 100% of the Money raised goes towards laying new Pipes and upgrading existing Water Treatment Plants .( Creating Jobs installing the Water meters and The Upgrades )

This should be made Clear to Everyone if they want everyone onboard ( No Pun intended )

Then when everything is Upgraded lower the Tax to cover the general running expenses

Irishgoatman

srsly78 wrote: »

Taxes have to go up. Welfare and public pay have to come down. Anyone that says otherwise is living in lalaland.

But yes dressing things up as water charges etc is just silly, they should whack on +10% tax and have done with it.

Where I'm living now I have my own well, Where I was living a few years ago I paid into a local water supply group. I do not use public supplied water yet you think my taxes should go up to pay for other peoples water?, I don't think so.:mad:

PseudoFamous

Irishgoatman wrote: »

Where I'm living now I have my own well, Where I was living a few years ago I paid into a local water supply group. I do not use public supplied water yet you think my taxes should go up to pay for other peoples water?, I don't think so.:mad:

That's why it''s metered. If you aren't going to use the public supply, you won't get charged for using the public supply. You will, however, be charged for YOUR water's treatment and disposal.

keithclancy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I don't care what is standard in other countries. I'll ask you again, can you give us a brief summary of Irish government expenditure in the years 2000 to 2010 inclusive, and then highlight the benefits this massive expenditure increase has brought?

Sure, no problem.

Alot of it is done here already:
2000 - 2006
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=%2Fdocuments%2FGuideToFunding%2Fdefault.asp&mn=guik&nID=1

2007 - 2013
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=%2Fdocuments%2FNDP2007-2013%2Foverview.htm

Amhran Nua

keithclancy wrote: »

Sure, no problem.

Alot of it is done here already:
2000 - 2006
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=%2Fdocuments%2FGuideToFunding%2Fdefault.asp&mn=guik&nID=1

2007 - 2013
http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=%2Fdocuments%2FNDP2007-2013%2Foverview.htm

Try again, I didn't say the NDP, I said government expenditure. You know the answer as well as I do, which is why you're avoiding answering the question.

If the water charges were going into water repair and maintenance, all would be well. But they aren't, they are going into plugging the deficit, along with all the other new taxes and tax increases, which is why general expenditure becomes important to consider.

Here's what happened, and why you are avoiding responding to my very simple and clear question. Back around the time of the dot com bubble, public sector unions started agitating for better pay and pensions on the basis that they had read in the newspapers about these computer billionaires. A complete nonsense of course, the bubble was largely confined to the US, a different continent, but any excuse to threaten strikes will do.

As time went on and the construction bubble arose, public sector unions started agitating for better pay, pensions and allowances, fearful that their members (who out of the other side of their mouths were taking out as many mortgages as the banks would give them) were falling behind in terms of wealth. More tripe, public pay in permanent employment was already well ahead of the equivalent private sector pay by this stage, but sure any excuse to threaten strikes will do. A weak government caved in to their demands and anyone else that wanted a few hundred million, and so expenditure ballooned. The nurses union is a splendid example of this, phased strategic industrial action to slowly reduce working hours while increasing pay and overtime. And don't forget to hold up the babbies for the cameras. Always semi reasonable, never too much at once.

This is why we have two redundant administration bodies for health service management.

Which brings us rather depressingly to today, when we are being told a water levy must be applied (by another weak government) which won't be used for the most part to actually fix the water, just dropped into the same general pot that pays for Enda's hair dye. The unions having made all these gains on the back of an unsustainable and indeed crippling bubble are now unwilling to give an inch on their profits, so a weak government of the same stripe as Fianna Fáil are instead cutting the legs out from under the actual economy, and the public sector exists to support that, not the other way round, and taking out loans to cover the interest on the loans they took out in an effort to avoid industrial action.

This is what happens when vital or semi vital services are heavily unionised, you get bent over a barrel.

RobitTV

Will people on Social Welfare be excluded from the tax?

keithclancy

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Try again, I didn't say the NDP, I said government expenditure. You know the answer as well as I do, which is why you're avoiding answering the question.

If the water charges were going into water repair and maintenance, all would be well. But they aren't, they are going into plugging the deficit, along with all the other new taxes and tax increases, which is why general expenditure becomes important to consider.

Here's what happened, and why you are avoiding responding to my very simple and clear question. Back around the time of the dot com bubble, public sector unions started agitating for better pay and pensions on the basis that they had read in the newspapers about these computer billionaires. A complete nonsense of course, the bubble was largely confined to the US, a different continent, but any excuse to threaten strikes will do.

As time went on and the construction bubble arose, public sector unions started agitating for better pay, pensions and allowances, fearful that their members (who out of the other side of their mouths were taking out as many mortgages as the banks would give them) were falling behind in terms of wealth. More tripe, public pay in permanent employment was already well ahead of the equivalent private sector pay by this stage, but sure any excuse to threaten strikes will do. A weak government caved in to their demands and anyone else that wanted a few hundred million, and so expenditure ballooned. The nurses union is a splendid example of this, phased strategic industrial action to slowly reduce working hours while increasing pay and overtime. And don't forget to hold up the babbies for the cameras. Always semi reasonable, never too much at once.

This is why we have two redundant administration bodies for health service management.

Which brings us rather depressingly to today, when we are being told a water levy must be applied (by another weak government) which won't be used for the most part to actually fix the water, just dropped into the same general pot that pays for Enda's hair dye. The unions having made all these gains on the back of an unsustainable and indeed crippling bubble are now unwilling to give an inch on their profits, so a weak government of the same stripe as Fianna Fáil are instead cutting the legs out from under the actual economy, and the public sector exists to support that, not the other way round, and taking out loans to cover the interest on the loans they took out in an effort to avoid industrial action.

This is what happens when vital or semi vital services are heavily unionised, you get bent over a barrel.

There is a deficit because the funds are not there to pay for the system in place at the moment.

A charge needs to be brought in to cover the cost.

Perhaps you grew up in an area where there were no issues with water, but there has been a masssive amount of investment in Water Protection, Treatment and Distribution.

Some of the flooding in Towns and the quality of water was terrible back in the 90s (grey/brown water wasn't uncommon) flooding was a fairly common occurence in towns.

I understand that your are sceptical that the money will not be spent on water, but unfortunately this money is distributed via the Councils, do you want them to spend more money splitting off a seperate entity to manage the Water Infrastructure ?

With my post I was merely pointing out that your Net income in Ireland is not lower than a few example countries in the EU.

The cost of living is not higher in Ireland either, about the only thing that was more expensive in Ireland was the cost of purchasing a house.