Govt plans to change means of identifying Gaeltacht areas

cyclopath2001

The Examiner
Saturday, June 04, 2011 - 11:44 AM

The Government is planning to introduce a bill which will change the way in which Gaeltacht areas are identified.

Under this new legislation, Gaeltacht areas will be identified in future by how much the Irish language is used, instead of by geographical location.

At least two thirds of a district's population must now be shown by census data to be daily speakers of Irish.

This new practice could lead to better targetting of resources for supporting people who choose to employ Irish rather than English in their daily lives, but, is census data a reliable measure, should there be more accurate tests? What form could they take? Should economic need be a factor? What incentives should be put in place to ensure that Gaeltachts comply with cultural targets?

later12

And why are we still identifying Gaeltacht areas in the first place? So that we can find adults whom we might spoonfeed so that they might (nominally) speak a dead language.

The bizarre spending habits of the bankrupt.

Lockstep

This doesn't surprise me.

I live in the Gaeltacht (on the peripharies) and while there's a lot of Gaeilgeoirs around, English is spoken by most.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

I pass through an area of the Gaelthacht to get from my home village in East Mayo to Galway, and I'm fairly certain that nobody is speaking Irish in it. And most of the Mayo Gaelthachts don't deserve the term anymore either.

MagicMarker

An ex of mine was from the Gaelthacht and her family spoke it as their first language, even when I was in the room (which is a little rude btw:p).

It seems logical to identify those areas by how many people actually speak Irish on a day to day basis.

View

So if the residents of Dalkey all claim to use Irish, Dalkey starts getting grants form Udaras na Gaelteacht?

In a few years, there'll hardly be an area that isn't claiming to be a Gaelteacht...

pog it

View wrote: »

So if the residents of Dalkey all claim to use Irish, Dalkey starts getting grants form Udaras na Gaelteacht?

In a few years, there'll hardly be an area that isn't claiming to be a Gaelteacht...

No. Dalkey, or any other Galltacht I'd imagine, would never have enough people speaking the language on a daily basis to ever gain Gaeltacht status. Most Irish people are happy we have our own national language but even then a lot of those begrudge the few paltry grants these rural and poverty stricken areas get, and what's more most of them are content to delude themselves that they are 'fluent' in the language rather than face facts and brush up on the language to gain real skills.

So yes reward those who are keeping the language alive for however many more years they can manage to do it for. Personally speaking it's one of the few things left in this country I feel we can have a bit of pride in, even if yes it is a practically dead language thanks to the neglect and ignorance of the majority of Irish people.

astrofool

I dunno, spending or overspending huge amounts of money on useless things seems to be the embodiment of the Irish nation for the last 80 years.

The_Conductor

pog it wrote: »

No. Dalkey, or any other Galltacht I'd imagine, would never have enough people speaking the language on a daily basis to ever gain Gaeltacht status.

How about the combined area of Lucan/Clondalkin/Leixlip/Maynooth.......?
By my reckoning it features 16 Gaelscoil.......

cyclopath2001

pog it wrote: »

it is a practically dead language thanks to the neglect and ignorance of the majority of Irish people.

'Everyone was marching out of step, except our Johnny'.

How do we measure genuine Irish-speaking communities who use authentic Irish 100% of the time in their daily lives? A test of some kind? Random audits?

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

pog it wrote: »

So yes reward those who are keeping the language alive for however many more years they can manage to do it for. Personally speaking it's one of the few things left in this country I feel we can have a bit of pride in, even if yes it is a practically dead language thanks to the neglect and ignorance of the majority of Irish people.

How can you blame the majority or Irish people for not speaking Irish when they only start learning it at the age of 5 and are given no practical use for it? I'm a supporter of the Irish language but I'll never be able to speak it fluently.

The_Conductor

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How do we measure genuine Irish-speaking communities who use authentic Irish 100% of the time in their daily lives? A test of some kind? Random audits?

I went to school through Irish- I did my Leaving Cert through Irish and I am capable of using Irish as my sole means of communication should I so choose. However- I've also worked solely through German, French and occasionally Spanish- and when attending meetings have no need for interpreters etc. Why should you have to use Irish 100% of the time in your daily life? When I'm with my family- often we revert to using Irish- simply because its what we're most familiar with- however all my brothers and sisters also speak German- and most of us French and Spanish, alongside a reasonable spattering of European Portuguese. I certainly don't use Irish 100% of the time in my daily life- I tailor whatever I'm saying, to suit the situation and those in whose company I may be. My wife takes the piss out of my English- in particular the way I structure my sentences, but I'm fully capable of communicating in English too.......

Also- what do you mean by 'authentic Irish'? We have at least 5 distinct canuint, my own preference is for Gaeilge Cuige Uladh- is any one canuint more authentic than another? Gaeilge is not a uniform language- while it may have fewer variations that Scotts Gaeilic and Welsh- I use many words, phrases and pronunciations that are alien to someone who speaks Munster Irish (as an example)?

Personally I don't understand how redefining Gaeltacht areas is going to matter one iota. If we want to target funds at the teaching (and correct teaching- not the appalling manner most schools teach Irish and other languages)- so be it- however personally, I think that people clinging onto a geographical designation and claiming funding on that basis is ridiculous. I'm going to stick out a limb here- but I reckon there are more regular Irish speakers in the Maynooth/Celbridge/Leixlip/Clondalkin/Lucan area that there are in Connemara....... Why should Connemara receive recognition and funding- when other areas are far more successful at propogating Irish as a living language?

If we want to target funding at rural communities for whatever reason- I don't have an issue with this- however wrapping it up into a geographical designation and suggesting that these areas are the true heritage of the country- when other areas are far more successful than they are at propagating Irish- means someone is seriously deluded........

We already have massive disbursements of funding from the Dublin Metropolitan area to the rest of the country- there are no rural communities that do not rely on the Dublin based taxpayer to pave their roads, provide their public services etc. Quite simply we do not have the population density for communities other than the greater Dublin region, to support themselves financially. If we are serious about protecting Irish as our national language- fine- lets support it and the manner in which it (and other languages) are taught in Irish schools. If we however want to support rural communities- lets stop kidding ourselves- and call a spade a spade- and look again at classifying the country on the basis of regional means- we all remember the BMW funding that was available for research in particular areas etc- at least it was an honest way of classifying the country and achieved the objective of supporting disadvantaged rural communities.

pog it

smccarrick wrote: »

How about the combined area of Lucan/Clondalkin/Leixlip/Maynooth.......?
By my reckoning it features 16 Gaelscoil.......

What does a Gaelscoil have to do getting assigned Gaeltacht status? Sure the children go home after school and speak English then with their parents, neighbours, friends, etc. You need the people to be using the language on a daily basis to be a proper Gaeltacht. No where in Dublin is ever going to achieve that except for a few households in one area.

The_Conductor

smccarrick wrote: »

I'm going to stick out a limb here- but I reckon there are more regular Irish speakers in the Maynooth/Celbridge/Leixlip/Clondalkin/Lucan area that there are in Connemara....... Why should Connemara receive recognition and funding- when other areas are far more successful at propogating Irish as a living language?

Just to emphasise this point- 10,000 people in the Maynooth/Celbridge/Leixlip/Clondalkin/Lucan area using Irish on a daily basis- is as a percentage of population- less than 1/4 what 5,000 people in Connemara speaking Irish on a daily basis might be. Yet- because the urban connurbation of Lucan/Leixlip/Maynooth/Celbridge/Clondalking- has a much higher population density and thus a much lower percentage of people speaking Irish- despite far higher absolute numbers- they get absolutely no recognition- while rural areas do........

If we want to support our rural communities- lets do so- but lets be honest about the manner in which we do so..........

The_Conductor

pog it wrote: »

What does a Gaelscoil have to do getting assigned Gaeltacht status? Sure the children go home after school and speak English then with their parents, neighbours, friends, etc. You need the people to be using the language on a daily basis to be a proper Gaeltacht. No where in Dublin is ever going to achieve that except for a few households in one area.

A few households in one area? Really? There are very vibrant Irish speaking communities in all of these areas- and its far from unusual to have kids happily chattering away to each in Irish- and using Irish as their first language. I went to a Gaelscoil in Clondalkin myself over 20 years ago- and to be honest with you- very often can't think of how to say things in English- I genuinely have to stop and try to figure it out. When I studied in UCD after secondary school- I spent over 6 months with a focloir Gaeilge-Bearla, to try to translate terms I was encountering from Irish to English- vice versa- and to ensure I actually understood properly what was happening in lectures etc.

Regarding Gaelscoils- the waiting lists for Gaelscoils in the Dublin area is far higher than in any other area- and parents of prospective kids are interviewed as Gaeilge to ensure that they can speak Irish and help their children to the best of their abilities.

If you imagine that its simply a few households in one area speaking Irish- you are very much wrong.........

Neither of my parents came from Gaeltacht areas either- but habitually would have spoken Irish at home.

pog it

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

'Everyone was marching out of step, except our Johnny'.

How do we measure genuine Irish-speaking communities who use authentic Irish 100% of the time in their daily lives? A test of some kind? Random audits?

They've done research on this already. For example there is a grant of €200 or so a year for a household with school going children and who use Irish as their main language and based on applications from when it started up to 2010 they can see even from that where Irish is used predominantly and where it's dying out fast. They send out inspectors to those households then to verify the claims, think it's just for new households, etc. and sometimes applications get rejected.

Apart from that there are areas you just need to visit yourself and go into the local pub, shop, schools, etc. and you immediately learn what's going on with the language.

pog it

smccarrick wrote: »

A few households in one area? Really? There are very vibrant Irish speaking communities in all of these areas- and its far from unusual to have kids happily chattering away to each in Irish- and using Irish as their first language. I went to a Gaelscoil in Clondalkin myself over 20 years ago- and to be honest with you- very often can't think of how to say things in English- I genuinely have to stop and try to figure it out. When I studied in UCD after secondary school- I spent over 6 months with a focloir Gaeilge-Bearla, to try to translate terms I was encountering from Irish to English- vice versa- and to ensure I actually understood properly what was happening in lectures etc.

Regarding Gaelscoils- the waiting lists for Gaelscoils in the Dublin area is far higher than in any other area- and parents of prospective kids are interviewed as Gaeilge to ensure that they can speak Irish and help their children to the best of their abilities.

If you imagine that its simply a few households in one area speaking Irish- you are very much wrong.........

Neither of my parents came from Gaeltacht areas either- but habitually would have spoken Irish at home.

It's useless. Those households I mean are "few" and they are too spread out. A Gaeltacht area involves a concentrated area made up of predominantly Irish speakers with little or no use of the English language. Like it or not English is the dominant language in those areas you mentioned, regardless of the good intentions of the parents. In my county there are some of us fluent in Irish but we're all spread out all over the county so we ain't ever gona delude ourselves about Gaeltacht status.

There simply are not enough people fluent in the language. The cúpla focal is nice, but useless for a Gaeltacht.

pog it

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

I'm a supporter of the Irish language but I'll never be able to speak it fluently.

In what way do you support it? Or by support do you mean you just like that we have our own language and that it's still somewhat alive?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

nesf

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I assume that it won't be used to declare any new Gaeltachts and in fact will just result in a cull of the non-functioning ones present based on the last Census. Otherwise yes, collusion would be a serious problem.

cyclopath2001

smccarrick wrote: »

Why should you have to use Irish 100% of the time in your daily life? ....Also- what do you mean by 'authentic Irish'?

These are the core questions.

Dannyboy83

smccarrick wrote: »

Also- what do you mean by 'authentic Irish'? We have at least 5 distinct canuint, my own preference is for Gaeilge Cuige Uladh- is any one canuint more authentic than another? Gaeilge is not a uniform language- while it may have fewer variations that Scotts Gaeilic and Welsh- I use many words, phrases and pronunciations that are alien to someone who speaks Munster Irish (as an example)?

And to think I was called a liar in some of the threads here for alluding to the above.:rolleyes:

dlofnep

So presumably, a vast array of Gaeltachtaí which actually have a decent number of Irish speakers - but fall short of the 66% required daily speakers will lose it's status? What a backwards idea. An Ghaeltacht isn't just about the Irish language - it has a strong sense of culture also. So what if two-thirds don't use it on a daily basis - it doesn't mean that they don't use it.

Take my local gaeltacht for example - An Rinn. You will always hear Gaeilge spoken there - but if you were to go into any of the local pubs, you'll surely hear alot of English also. That doesn't mean that it isn't a Gaeltacht. This proposal is asking too much - and isn't going to be effective. It will hurt the language more than anything. A Gaeltacht status plays an important role in local tourism. Changing this will hurt it.

markpb

If people go to those areas because they're in the Gaeltach, they're going to be very disappointed (and annoyed) when they find most locals speaking English.

It isn't meant to be a slush fund to prop up the west, it's meant to encourage people to speak Irish. If they're not regularly speaking Irish, why should the rest of the country fund them?

I've been in Belmullet for the last few days and found it a bit funny. The only Irish I've heard was a few words mixed into mass right before the priest announced that some masses would be in Irish over the summer "for the students". Several nights out here and a wedding with people from Geesala and not a word of Irish around me.

Also, the council have covered up the English version of Belmullet on the road signs but someone has sprayed it back on :-)

cyclopath2001

dlofnep wrote: »

An Ghaeltacht isn't just about the Irish language - it has a strong sense of culture also. .

How do we measure this? After all, if some communities are going to be subsidised for being more 'Irish' than others, we need a fair way of distinguishing this.

The_Conductor

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

After all, if some communities are going to be subsidised for being more 'Irish' than others, we need a fair way of distinguishing this.

Animal Farm comes to mind- 'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.........'

If we're going to subsidise rural areas- lets be honest about it- rather than hiding behind geographical designations etc......? Most of the country of subsidised by Dublin based taxpayers- because we quite simply don't have the population densities to support the types of services that people consider should be universal in nature.

No-one ever wants to acknowledge the costs associated with support structures such as Udaras na Gaeltacht etc- surely all our sacred cows need to be on the table in the current climate?

dlofnep

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How do we measure this? After all, if some communities are going to be subsidised for being more 'Irish' than others, we need a fair way of distinguishing this.

How do you measure daily speakers? Anyone can write down anything on a form. It isn't tested. My point is that the Gaeltacht, while is a strong bastion for the Irish language - has many more things to offer, including great storytellers, culture and a unique history.

markpb

dlofnep wrote: »

How do you measure daily speakers? Anyone can write down anything on a form. It isn't tested. My point is that the Gaeltacht, while is a strong bastion for the Irish language - has many more things to offer, including great storytellers, culture and a unique history.

Would those areas lose all that if they weren't officially designated as being in the Gaeltach? Would people throw away all that culture if they weren't grant-aided?

Also, I think youre suggesting that no other part of the country has storytellers or history and isn't good enough to get free money from the government but I know no rational person would make that argument so I must be missing something.

The_Conductor

dlofnep wrote: »

How do you measure daily speakers? Anyone can write down anything on a form. It isn't tested. My point is that the Gaeltacht, while is a strong bastion for the Irish language - has many more things to offer, including great storytellers, culture and a unique history.

So too do many other areas. Our family farm in Sligo- which isn't in a Gaeltacht area has two national monuments- including a passage grave- and I'd challenge anyone to better the story tellers and cultural events in the area.

Ireland, as a whole, is an ancient and very special place. We don't appreciate just what we have. If you want to highlight the cultural significance of the Gaeltacht areas- fine- but you can't use it as a battering ram to suggest that there isn't comparable cultural significance associated with almost any other place in the country.......

I've looked at historical records showing school attendance since the 1700s, taxes levied on local homes, emigration records, ballads lamenting our past- from all over the place- certainly not just Gaeltacht areas. Certain areas have more significance for me than others- Inis Meain, Inverin, Rosaveel, Achill, Belmullet, Knocknashee, Glenties, Maas, Killybegs- some are in the Gaeltacht- some aren't- all are equally significant in my eyes culturally- and I would actively argue with anyone to prove me otherwise........

deise go deo

markpb wrote: »

Also, I think youre suggesting that no other part of the country has storytellers or history and isn't good enough to get free money from the government but I know no rational person would make that argument so I must be missing something.

I think you are missing something, there are loads of various cultural activities, unconnected to the Irish language that get 'free money' from the government.

This particular discussion is about the Irish language however.

In relation the the Irish language, the aim of the grants etc for the gaeltacht communities is to maintain the viability of a language community in these areas.
This support means that people are able to live their lives through Irish in the same way that people in the rest of the country are able to live their lives through English.

They have access to schools for their kids through Irish, access to state services through Irish etc.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How do we measure this? After all, if some communities are going to be subsidised for being more 'Irish' than others, we need a fair way of distinguishing this.

Who said anything about people being 'more Irish than others'?

The only one talking about that is you as far as I can see.

markpb

deise go deo wrote: »

In relation the the Irish language, the aim of the grants etc for the gaeltacht communities is to maintain the viability of a language community in these areas.
This support means that people are able to live their lives through Irish in the same way that people in the rest of the country are able to live their lives through English.

I don't disagree with any of that. My problem is with people like dlofnep who admit that not many people in his part of the Gaeltach live their luves through Irish but think the government should continue to classify them as being part of it and subsidise it accordingly because it brings in tourists. I think that's offensive to both taxpayers and tourists.

The_Conductor

deise go deo wrote: »

This particular discussion is about the Irish language however.

Its actually about redefining Gaeltacht areas- which is a regional classification- not about the Irish Language itself, other than in a roundabout manner.

deise go deo wrote: »

In relation the the Irish language, the aim of the grants etc for the gaeltacht communities is to maintain the viability of a language community in these areas.
This support means that people are able to live their lives through Irish in the same way that people in the rest of the country are able to live their lives through English.

The aim of grants in Gaeltacht communities is as much to prevent rural depopulation- and provide local employment opportunities, as it is to enable people to live their daily lives as Gaeilge- ma theastaionn daoine sin a dheanamh. These various grants etc (and they encompass far more than the activities of Udaras na Gaeltachta) certainly do direct funds at Irish language enterprises- however its a fallacy to suggest that their aim is to enable people to live their lives as Gaeilge in the same or similar manner to the way people live their lives as Bearla.

I *have* to use French and German on a daily basis- and Spanish and Portuguese less frequently. Being able to maintain databases using various scripting languages- is more important to me- than being able to converse with my colleagues in English (and I do occasionally converse with some of my colleagues as Gaeilge). Irish- is a language- and happily a living language- however any language is first and foremost a means of communicating with those we have interactions with. To suggest I can survive solely with English- or Irish- is nonsensical. I can't. I love to use my Irish- and I do when the opportunity arises- often accidentally, if I can't think of what I want to say in English.

deise go deo wrote: »

They have access to schools for their kids through Irish, access to state services through Irish etc.

And why shouldn't everyone else have access to schools through Irish for our kids, and access to state services through Irish? My census collator nearly had canaries when I said I'd better understand some of the questions in Irish- he had Polish census forms, alongside his English ones, but no Irish ones. My local Gaelscoil cannot offer a place to any children- unless they already have a sibling in the school, and parents can prove at interview their competence in Irish......... Should the fact that I live in Lucan, and not Inverin, govern whether or not I have the facility to educate my children through Irish? I am Irish- I speak Irish, I don't see myself as an exclusive user of any language- but a habitual user of 4 or 5- as appropriate. I'm not fond of watching English television- as I hate to see any language mangled- including English- and there are few programmes other than the news, which feature good grammar and punctuation. I do have fun watching the different regional French and German channels, seeing how they phrase things differently. I enjoy how Irish is structured very similar to French and German- and has tenses that have long vanished from English- which makes learning continental languages a lot easier for Irish speakers- in my opinion.

I don't get it........... Move over a notional land boundary- get state funding. Move over another notional boundary- don't get funding........

The_Conductor

deise go deo wrote: »

Who said anything about people being 'more Irish than others'?

The only one talking about that is you as far as I can see.

Its not about some people being more Irish than others- its about people living in a particular area receiving preferential treatment not available to others- who might otherwise be in similar situations. I'd love my kids to go to Gaelscoil- however getting into one is a nightmare- to the extent that the Revenue Commissioners have been petitioned by some parents to issue early PPSNs to children- to enable early applications be submitted. Meanwhile- an hour down the road- there are Gaelscoil with class sizes half what they are here, and no problems whatsoever in enrolling your kids- because they are in the Gaeltacht....... How does this sound- other than positive discrimination for one group of people, at the cost of negative discrimination against another. Certainly I think we should support our national language and culture- but I do not think it should be supported extensively in a purely theoretical geographical area, to the detriment of supporting it elsewhere?

So- its not that one group of people are more 'More Irish' than another group of people- its move to such and such an area- if you want to avail of preferential treatment not available to others- which is very much the case.

It was me who alluded to the quotation from Animal Farm by the way- about 'All animals being equal, but some animals are more equal than others.........'

pog it

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

How do we measure this? After all, if some communities are going to be subsidised for being more 'Irish' than others, we need a fair way of distinguishing this.

I gave you one good example of this already cyclopath..

pog it

smccarrick wrote: »

Animal Farm comes to mind- 'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.........'

If we're going to subsidise rural areas- lets be honest about it- rather than hiding behind geographical designations etc......? Most of the country of subsidised by Dublin based taxpayers- because we quite simply don't have the population densities to support the types of services that people consider should be universal in nature.

No-one ever wants to acknowledge the costs associated with support structures such as Udaras na Gaeltacht etc- surely all our sacred cows need to be on the table in the current climate?

Eh, Kevin Myers tried to slay the sacred cow of single mothers getting 30k + a year out of social welfare benefits and nothing was done there. There are worse recipients of our tax money out there than the Údarás. Comeon, we need to pick our fights.

deise go deo

smccarrick wrote: »

Its not about some people being more Irish than others- its about people living in a particular area receiving preferential treatment not available to others- who might otherwise be in similar situations.

I understand where you are comming from, but the situation in that regard has changed quite a bit over the last 10 years, with the implementation of the offical languages act.

I'd love my kids to go to Gaelscoil- however getting into one is a nightmare- to the extent that the Revenue Commissioners have been petitioned by some parents to issue early PPSNs to children- to enable early applications be submitted. Meanwhile- an hour down the road- there are Gaelscoil with class sizes half what they are here, and no problems whatsoever in enrolling your kids- because they are in the Gaeltacht....... How does this sound- other than positive discrimination for one group of people, at the cost of negative discrimination against another. Certainly I think we should support our national language and culture- but I do not think it should be supported extensively in a purely theoretical geographical area, to the detriment of supporting it elsewhere?

I dont think the gaeltachts should be supported to the detriment of the language in the galltacht, far from it, however, I do not see it as an choice of one or the other, I think that supporting the language in and outside the gaeltacht is vital for the future of the language, and that one is very much dependant on the other.

In relation to the school situation, the schools in the gaeltacht are not gaelscoils, they are the local VEC school that happens to opperate through Irish because it is in the gaeltacht. The demand for gaelscoileanna is one of the greatest signs of hope for the language, and the shortage of places is indeed a pressing concern, but the seeming intransigance from the government in relation to expanding the capacity of the Gaelscoil system is not being done in some kind of effort to set up some kind of Gaeilge manopoly in the Gaeltachts and i think it is wrong to try and set it in that light, indeed all plans ans strategys in relation to promoting the language recognise how important the role of Irish outside the gaeltacht is. Through organisations like Foras and Glor na nGeal, conradh and the various other voulentry organisations around the country and especially through the Gaelscoils.

So- its not that one group of people are more 'More Irish' than another group of people- its move to such and such an area- if you want to avail of preferential treatment not available to others- which is very much the case.

It was me who alluded to the quotation from Animal Farm by the way- about 'All animals being equal, but some animals are more equal than others.........'

I think that if the language is to survive as a living and vibrant language then one of the most important things is ensuring the continued viability of the communities where it is spoken as a first language.
Within the current set up that entails a certain ammount of waste and money being spent in areas and on things that has no benefit on the viability of the language. This is one aspect that the reforms should be focused at in my opinion. The reclasification of the gaeltachts into A,B and C areas based on the linguistic reality on the ground is an important development in my opinion as it will help a more realistic picture of conditions in the gaeltacht can emerge and policy can be made that reflects the realities of the situation rather than basing it on a geographical area that reflects the political compromises made in the 50's.

For the vast majority of services available from the state, there is no distinction made between someone who is in a gaeltacht of not, there are areas of course that this is not true, but the trend in relation to this is to cut them back where they exist in the gaeltacht rather than making them available to everyone.

pog it

Now this is more like it.

http://igaeilge.ie/2011/06/03/aitheantas-do-na-gaeltachtai-cathrach/

Aitheantas’ do na Gaeltachtaí cathrach

03/06/2011
An Ghaeilge, Cultúr, Cúrsaí Reatha, Nuacht

“Tabharfar stádas reachtúil do chineál nua ceantair, ‘Gaeltacht gréasáin’, a bheidh lasmuigh de na ceantair Ghaeltachta reachtúla atá ann faoi láthair. Is ceantair iad seo a mbeidh a bhformhór i bpobail uirbeacha agus a mbeidh toirt bhunúsach chriticiúil de thacaíocht phobail agus Stáit acu don Ghaeilge.”

Is cinnte má tá aon rud fónta le teacht as an Straitéis 20 Bliain seo, is é go dtabharfar aitheantas reachtúil do na pobail Gaelacha ar fuaid na tíre, taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht agus, ach go h-áirithe, sna cathracha.
Gréasáin Gaeltachta atá á thabhairt ar an stadas nua Gaeltachta seo agus is cinnte go dtagann, go pointe, le fís a nocht mé faoin cheist seo roinnt blianta ó shin. An G-Spota a bhaist mé ar an suaitheantas aitheantais do na Gaeltachtaí nua seo, leasainm ar bhaist mé air le mioscais is spórt.
Ní miste cén ainm a thugaimíd ar an aitheantas seo chomh fada agus go bhfuil brí éigean leis an aitheantas féin. Déanfaidh ‘gréasáin Gaeltachta’ cúis gan amhras.
An deacracht is mó go bhfuil an baol ann de bharr an iarsma stairiúil sin, an teorainn, nach gcuimseofar gréasáin Gaeltachta an tuaiscirt, go h-áirithe gréasán Ghaeltacht Bhéal Feirste, faoi théarmaí na reachtaíochta agus nach mbeadh aitheantas ag gabhail don sár obair atá á dhéanamh ar an dtalamh.
Táim cinnte nach gcuirfeadh a leithéid isteach ar mhuintir Bhéal Feirste – is fada iad ag gabhail don obair seo gan ‘aitheantas’ agus leanfaidh siad leis. Ag an am chéanna, creidimse gur mór an trua é nach mbeadh an réamh-shampla is fearr faoi bhrat reachtaíochta den chineál atá á mholadh.

Ní fheadar an bhfuil aon seans go bhféadfaí a leithéid de mholadh, go mbeadh ‘gréasáin Gaeltachta’ ó thuaidh, a shníomh isteach i straitéis atá, maítear, á ullmhú ag an Roinn Cultúr ó thuaidh chun cur le stadas na teanga ar an dtaobh sin den teorainn.

cyclopath2001

pog it wrote: »

I gave you one good example of this already cyclopath..

You mentioned an Inspector, alright, but the details should be known.

What are the metrics? Number of sentences per hour spoken in Irish? Correctness of grammar? Approved Music collection? Step-dancing certification? Radio tuned to RnaG, no Satellite TV? And, as for the Irish-language craic in the pubs, how is this assessed?

Is there some kind of points score for Irishness that's added up for a neighbourhood and if they get enough they all qualify for Gaeltacht goodies?

pog it

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You mentioned an Inspector, alright, but the details should be known.

What are the metrics? Number of sentences per hour spoken in Irish? Correctness of grammar? Approved Music collection? Step-dancing certification? Radio tuned to RnaG, no Satellite TV? And, as for the Irish-language craic in the pubs, how is this assessed?

Is there some kind of points score for Irishness that's added up for a neighbourhood and if they get enough they all qualify for Gaeltacht goodies?

Ah, it looks like you've a massive chip on your shoulder. Truly can you not find something better to attack? Ryan Tubridy earning €15,000 a week for example? No? A legion of government advisors getting paid 170k a year? An outrageous tv licence fee? No? Prefer to attack the "goodies" a household in the Gaeltacht get i.e. c. 200 euro a year? I feel sorry for you really.

deise go deo

pog it wrote: »

Ah, it looks like you've a massive chip on your shoulder. Truly can you not find something better to attack? Ryan Tubridy earning €15,000 a week for example? No? A legion of government advisors getting paid 170k a year? An outrageous tv licence fee? No? Prefer to attack the "goodies" a household in the Gaeltacht get i.e. c. 200 euro a year? I feel sorry for you really.

Not anymore they dont, that particular massive, state crippling, NAMA scale, expinditure is over.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

You mentioned an Inspector, alright, but the details should be known.

What are the metrics? Number of sentences per hour spoken in Irish? Correctness of grammar? Approved Music collection? Step-dancing certification? Radio tuned to RnaG, no Satellite TV? And, as for the Irish-language craic in the pubs, how is this assessed?

Is there some kind of points score for Irishness that's added up for a neighbourhood and if they get enough they all qualify for Gaeltacht goodies?

Well, you started the thread, what do you think would be appropriate?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Well, you started the thread, what do you think would be appropriate?

I don't think census declarations are reliable and I need to know more about the current methods before i could form an opinion about them. I have tossed out a few possible metrics that might help distinguish Gaeltacht from non-Gaeltacht.

How, in a measurable way, would you determine if a town or village is part of a Gaeltacht?

LaBaguette

Instead of giving grants to some regions, why not give grants to actual institutions that use Irish ?

The way I see things, the Gaeltacht system was built up when the situation was Irish-speaking communities in the West and English-speaking Dublin (caricature added for clarity). In that context, giving grants to those regions made sense, to prevent them from fleeing to Dublin.

Now, it seems that Irish isn't that much used in Gaeltachtai, and that some areas in the East have a strong demand for Irish.

From what I've read, any realistic plan to increase Irish usage includes more Gaelscoileanna. On that side, the main issue is the lack of place, or rather the lack of qualified teachers to run schools with. So cut off the Gaeltacht grants, and use them to fund various cultural projects (libraries, cinemas, radio/tv/web content...) but mostly to boost salaries for Irish teachers.

Higher salaries will attract more potential teachers, allowing for the opening of enough Gaelscoileanna to meet the demand. And that's how language revival comes about.

That way, current Gaeltachtai will retain funding, as they are supposed to have a higher concentration of Irish schools, libraries and whatever.

Thoughts ?

pog it

LaBaguette wrote: »

Instead of giving grants to some regions, why not give grants to actual institutions that use Irish ?

The way I see things, the Gaeltacht system was built up when the situation was Irish-speaking communities in the West and English-speaking Dublin (caricature added for clarity). In that context, giving grants to those regions made sense, to prevent them from fleeing to Dublin.

Now, it seems that Irish isn't that much used in Gaeltachtai, and that some areas in the East have a strong demand for Irish.

From what I've read, any realistic plan to increase Irish usage includes more Gaelscoileanna. On that side, the main issue is the lack of place, or rather the lack of qualified teachers to run schools with. So cut off the Gaeltacht grants, and use them to fund various cultural projects (libraries, cinemas, radio/tv/web content...) but mostly to boost salaries for Irish teachers.

Higher salaries will attract more potential teachers, allowing for the opening of enough Gaelscoileanna to meet the demand. And that's how language revival comes about.

That way, current Gaeltachtai will retain funding, as they are supposed to have a higher concentration of Irish schools, libraries and whatever.

Thoughts ?

There are still very strong Gaeltachts in the West, North and South and where Irish is very much spoken every day so it's incorrect to say 'Irish isn't used much in Gaeltachtaí'.

Take Conamara for example. The further away to the west from the city you go the stronger the Gaeltacht is and there is no reason why their funding should get cut off and be invested in the new Irish language communities (You'll see from my link above that these are to be named 'Gréasáin Gaeltachta to differentiate from the Gaeltacht as we know it). Both should be supported.


I never heard about a shortage of teachers in Gaelscoileanna. Where did you hear that? Also, teachers are compensated more than well enough as it is and we want to keep it as it is and only attract the best teachers, not those who take up a bit of Irish to ensure they get a job. As it is the teaching colleges are filling up with every average joe who wants a secure job, let's not permeate something positive like a Gaelscoil with that tripe. They do reward teachers, gardaí, etc. who teach on the Gaeltacht islands and that is the right kind of approach in my opinion.

The_Conductor

I have to agree with Pog it- there isn't a shortage of teachers in Gaelscoileanna- the issue is that particularly in the East- there is a shortage of places in Gaelscoileanna- not teachers.

We *need* teachers with Gaeilge fluirseach to teach in the schools- not some Tom, Dick or Harry with the HDip who is willing to chance their arm with a bit of Irish. The country is awash with prospective teachers- those with language skills need to be channelled into Gaelscoils- not to teach Irish- but to teach through Irish.

The biggest problem of all in Irish education in my experience is the appalling manner in which we try to teach languages to our kids- and I mean this across the board not just Gaeilge. The immersion teaching methods are in place in several schools outside of the Gaelscoileanna- and its remarkably successful (look at St. Killians in Clonskeagh for example).

Our teachers are paid plenty- and have remarkably good conditions- increasing pay for people capable of teaching through the medium of Irish- not Irish teachers, is not the way to go. Channelling teachers who are capable of teaching subjects as Gaeilge- into Gaelscoileanna- is what needs to happen........ How this would be done- I don't know.

Particularly in the East- a significant portion of Gaelscoileanna are in temporary accommodation- a good first step would be to find permanent homes for them.

Eliot Rosewater

pog it wrote: »

Now this is more like it.

http://igaeilge.ie/2011/06/03/aitheantas-do-na-gaeltachtai-cathrach/

Please note that posting untranslated Irish on the forum isn't allowed because most posters here can't understand it. In future (and ideally even now) please provide a translation so everyone can participate in the discussion. Cheers.

/mod.

pog it

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Please note that posting untranslated Irish on the forum isn't allowed because most posters here can't understand it. In future (and ideally even now) please provide a translation so everyone can participate in the discussion. Cheers.

/mod.

Well I'm sorry about that, I really put it up for McCarrick who was particularly interested in urban Gaeltachts getting official status or recognition at least.

I don't have time now to translate focal ar fhocal, word for word, but it is an article I saw on the popular iGaeilge website - www.igaeilge.ie - (written by former editor of the daily Irish language newspaper Lá ) which comments on current affairs and Irish language matters and in it he draws attention to the Government's 20 Year Strategy for the Irish Language proposals (proposals and report carried out by Éamon Ó Cuív's department before FF got thrown out) and which was published in November of last year.

Well as part of the strategy they have drawn up a proposal to give recognition to urban Gaeltachts and it seems they are to get a different title 'Gréasáin Gaeltachta'. I haven't seen the report though and so I don't have any more details yet really.
It's a bit of a strange title in one way so maybe that part will change with the new minister.. don't know.

pog it

http://www.pobail.ie/en/IrishLanguage/Strategy/StrategyEnglish.pdf

From PG.24

The Comprehensive Linguistic Study of the Use
of Irish in the Gaeltacht recommended
recognition of distinct types of language
communities within the Gaeltacht for which
targeted, appropriate language planning
interventions would be devised. The
Government considers it appropriate that a new
type of “network Gaeltacht” be recognised in
the new legislation. This category will allow for
targeted language planning initiatives to
develop new language communities/networks
outside the Gaeltacht. These will be
predominantly in urban communities that have
achieved a basic critical mass of community and
State support for the Irish language, such as
childcare facilities through Irish, gaelscoileanna,
second level education through Irish, Irish
language youth clubs and other services,
including mother and toddler groups, Irish
language religious services, etc. Specific criteria
to be developed for this category will relate to
public attitudes, language ability, provision of
Irish-medium education and the willingness to
actively participate in Irish language initiatives

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

I don't think census declarations are reliable and I need to know more about the current methods before i could form an opinion about them.

I don't think census data should be taken at face value, 41% claim to be able to speak Irish, at that the Entire state would be clasified as a Gaeltacht. However there are things that can be learned from the declarations people make, for one, that the Irish language is important to quite a large number of people, It dosent make sence that people would over report their ability in a language that is meaningless to them.

I have tossed out a few possible metrics that might help distinguish Gaeltacht from non-Gaeltacht.

Your suggestions were

-Number of sentences per hour spoken in Irish
-Correctness of grammar
-Approved Music collection?
-Step-dancing certification
-Radio tuned to RnaG
-no Satellite TV

Forgive me for assuming that you were not being serious, but if that is what you are seriously suggesting then I suggest you dont go looking for a job in language planning.

How, in a measurable way, would you determine if a town or village is part of a Gaeltacht?

The proposed way of determining it is basing it on Census data and Figures from An Sceim Labhairt na Gaeilge.

Personally however I would take a wider view of what is involved in making a place a Gaeltacht or not.

In an exploratory study into Bilingualism in Galway city, carried out on behalf of Gaillimh le Gaeilge, it was decided to determin the factors people felt would defined what made an urban landscape Bilingual.

For the most part I think we can apply the same criteria to defining what we would expect a Gaeltacht to be.
The factors identified as part of the Galway city study were:

-Two languages visibly displayed throughout the City
-Social events in two languages
-Service in two languages available from the private sector
-Service in two languages available from the public sector
-Hearing two languages on the city streets
-Media available in two languages

http://gleg.ie/admin/documents/TAIGHDE1.pdf


So the criteria that I think would be necessary for a Gaeltacht to be a Gaeltacht would be:

Irish being used either on its own or as part of Bilingual signage throught the area so that there is an Irish Language atmosphere. Examples of this in effect would be Housing estates named in Irish, business names in Irish, advertisment in Irish or bilingually etc. This can be assessed by a visit from an inspector.

What aspects of social life are organised and conducted through Irish in the area? Examples would be local sports teams, social/cultural groups, school plays etc. This can be assessed by the attendance of an inspector at some events in the area to determin what language is being used.

To what extent are local businesses capable of dealing with their customers in Irish? If a business is unable to deal with its customers in Irish then it is reasonable to assume that the business its self is run through English and all its customers use English when dealing with it. This can be assessed by an Inspector visiting an area.

Most Public sector organisations already have services available in Irish under the OLA 2003, so this is less relevant to a gaeltacht area that it is to a non gaeltacht area, however uptake of those services in Irish in Gaeltacht areas, or by people from Gaeltacht areas can be recorded and used in determining if an area is indeed a gaeltacht.

Irish spoken on the streets.
This is particularly dificult to assess, for two reasons, Firstly, gaeltachts tend to be rural areas, so with the exception of some towns and the part of Galway City that is in the Gaeltacht, there wont be people on the streets speaking to each other that could easily be overheard speaking Irish or English by an inspector.
Secondally, People in the gaeltacht tend to switch to English when speaking to each other in the presence of strangers out of a habit of deference and for fear of being rude. As any inspector in an area would have to be a stranger to that area to insure objectivity, it would also mean that over reporting on the ammount of English being spoken is likely, where it even possible to assess in the first place.
In this instance I believe that figures from the sceim labhairt na Gaeilge would be usefull as would the use of inspectors visiting an area striking up conversation with locals to see how often people are able to respond in Irish.
This will only assess that people are able to speak Irish, and not that they do actually speak Irish, however assessing with any kind of accuracy that they actually do speak Irish is very difficult.

Media, of the media consumed in the area, is it Irish language or English media. This can be assessed through sales figures and surveys.



Of course it would have to be determined which of these factors are most important and Census Data and figures from Sceim labhairt na Gaeilge would also have a role to play in giving a compleat picture of the area.

As well as this I think reserach should be conducted in the various gaeltacht areas to get a more detailed picture of peoples opinions there on how Important retaining Gaeltacht status is to them, how well they can speak, read and write in Irish, if they would like to improve their ability to speak, read or write in Irish and what services/initiatives they themselves feel are necessary to preserve/promote Irish as the languafge of the area.

cyclopath2001

Basicly, a Gaeltacht shoukd be defined as an area where Irish speaking takes place 90% of the time and Irish media is viewed or used in the same proportion.

Measuring Irish speaking cultural activities would help define a Gaeltacht, but it has to be considered in proportion to English speaking activities in the same area. So, the proportion of Irish speaking relative to English speaking is more important than just the mere existance of some enthusiasts. Modern technology might allow us to detect the language used in phone conversations, without revealing the content. Perhaps we could measure Irish speakng compliance this way? Similarly, areas with high numbers of Sky subscriptions could be ruled out.

As for the uptake of mandatory public services in Irish, alas, this will not favour traditional Gaeltachtanna as most complaints about non complance with OLA obligations come from Dublin and other non Gaeltact areas.