Are Punters who dont use Betfair losing out?

The_Kew_Tour

When it comes to prices Betfair is miles better....

What ye think?

mike65

Depends, do BF guarantee best odds? Do they do refunds for non runners? , do they offer faller insurance on jumps racing? (I don't know so I'm asking)

The_Kew_Tour

mike65 wrote: »

Depends, do BF guarantee best odds? Do they do refunds for non runners? , do they offer faller insurance on jumps racing? (I don't know so I'm asking)

They do offer non runner no bet im pretty sure, I know others they dont, can be annoying and this is an advantage for likes of PP and Boyles but still think BF is much better overall, especially for sports outside of horse racing.

Bluetonic

mike65 wrote: »

Depends, do BF guarantee best odds? Do they do refunds for non runners? , do they offer faller insurance on jumps racing? (I don't know so I'm asking)

Do they offer first past the post? Double result?

Do they even have a site which has any stability? Clue: It's down at the moment.

Denners.ie

They are only better for long odds bets. Their value in most markets on anything 3/1 or under is generally not the best value when you take off commission.

Their odds on soccer accums is poor aswell.

UrbanSea

Don't pay double result which would be annoying. Dead heat half stake. Site is brutal

okidoki987

Bookies have made massive inroads into BF's market over the last few months/years.
Very little between bookie & Exchange prices nowadays and when you factor in shop enhances, it makes very little sense after paying a 5% commission.
Betfairs share price is a good indicator of the amount of t/over that they are losing.

jive

Depends completely on the market and varies a lot. Some times you will get better prices usually for shorter odds with the bookies. Long shots are usually better being backed on Betfair though, for sure. Just use odds checker and take the bookies or betfair, whoever has the best price.

The Walsho

The ability to lay things on Betfair is huge though.

ValueSeeker

Any serious bettor should have a Betfair account. With bookmakers you are betting against their odds compilers who are seriously clued up people in their markets and who are also very capable in the maths department. Why would you want to take them on? The odds on Betfair on certain markets are totally ridiculous and the 5% commission is nothing vs the extra value.

If you bet with sportsbooks, you need numerous accounts. You'll often find that a certain firm offer way bigger odds on certain markets and must take advantage of them. EG: The Unibet prices on La Liga goal scorers were totally ridiculous last season. I don't know if it was a publicity thing or just a very incompetent odds compiler.

Dailynaps

Of course they're losing out. Every punter should have an account with every bookmaker and exchange to ensure you get the best prices. If you're only going to choose one, choose Betfair - They have better odds (including commission), so it's pretty clear.

True they don't pay double result or full stake dead heats, but how often do you see stewards changing results or dead heats. I'd suggest you might lose out because of this maybe once every 1-3 years. Their better odds make up for this.

Best thing to do - Take a look at your bets over the next month, record them at your bookie and with Betfair and see which works out best

The_Kew_Tour

Dailynaps wrote: »

Of course they're losing out. Every punter should have an account with every bookmaker and exchange to ensure you get the best prices. If you're only going to choose one, choose Betfair - They have better odds (including commission), so it's pretty clear.

True they don't pay double result or full stake dead heats, but how often do you see stewards changing results or dead heats. I'd suggest you might lose out because of this maybe once every 1-3 years. Their better odds make up for this.

Best thing to do - Take a look at your bets over the next month, record them at your bookie and with Betfair and see which works out best

I have to agree.

The problem with specials is they make you gamble money that you would not do normally.

Mellor

Why are you restricted to one or the other, use every means availible to give yourself the biggest edge

Pj!

ValueSeeker wrote: »

Any serious bettor should have a Betfair account. With bookmakers you are betting against their odds compilers who are seriously clued up people in their markets and who are also very capable in the maths department. Why would you want to take them on? The odds on Betfair on certain markets are totally ridiculous and the 5% commission is nothing vs the extra value.

That is mostly wrong. (Very wrong for horse racing.)


Open an account with every bookmaker/exchange possible. And always take the biggest price.

The_Kew_Tour

Pj! wrote: »

That is mostly wrong. (Very wrong for horse racing.)


Open an account with every bookmaker/exchange possible. And always take the biggest price.

Yes, I have to agree its the only way your ever going to have any chance of beating the bookie is if you can get the best odds.

Having a BF account though is important.

Derek!

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Yes, I have to agree its the only way your ever going to have any chance of beating the bookie is if you can get the best odds.

Having a BF account though is important.

+1 the odds on Betfair are crazy at times
and the ability it gives you to trade can be priceless

Stanivlasky

The best thing about bf is you wont have your stakes chopped or even account closed if you happen to win,

Fursttimer

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

When it comes to prices Betfair is miles better....

What ye think?

No, there is always BetdaQ

premierstone

Like most things the answer is 'it depends' 90% of my bettting is done on Golf and GAA, now betfair is practically reduntant for GAA because there is so little liquidity in the market, I generally use Hills or Powers for these, they consistenly have the best prices.

But for betting on Golf, anyone who doesnt use betfair is simply throwing money away, the variances in prices and the ability to lay off is absolute gold in Golf.

The_Kew_Tour

premierstone wrote: »

Like most things the answer is 'it depends' 90% of my bettting is done on Golf and GAA, now betfair is practically reduntant for GAA because there is so little liquidity in the market, I generally use Hills or Powers for these, they consistenly have the best prices.

But for betting on Golf, anyone who doesnt use betfair is simply throwing money away, the variances in prices and the ability to lay off is absolute gold in Golf.

100% agree with you on the Golf. Especially anything over 50/1 you will at least get 55/1 or more on betfair and even including commission thats still 2.5pts more.

Golf, Football, GAA and Boxing be my bets mostly with bit of horse racing but I find using BF to really have helped me make more money or at least give me some chance

ComplyOrDie

I use betfair purely for free bets.
Basically if you fancy an outsider who id 20/1 with bookies

He will prob be around 40/1 on betfair...and if he happends to be going well you just lay him in running


so:

€10 @40/1

lay €10 @ 20/1

and if he wins €200 and if he loses you lose nothing
obiously you have to get your lay bet matched, however if you think the horse is overpriced at 20/1 this will more than likely happen in running

With traditional bookies you dont have a getout clause

Fursttimer

There won't be many using betfair in the coming months. The numbers have dropped dramtically with increasing charges and more are on the way. The liquidity is their markets has slackened.

Looks like betdaq could possibly overtake them as the main market leader over the next 12 months. Matchbook are also coming onto the scene.

The_Kew_Tour

Fursttimer wrote: »

There won't be many using betfair in the coming months. The numbers have dropped dramtically with increasing charges and more are on the way. The liquidity is their markets has slackened.

Looks like betdaq could possibly overtake them as the main market leader over the next 12 months. Matchbook are also coming onto the scene.

Interesting. What charges are BF bringing in?

albert kidd

Fursttimer wrote: »

There won't be many using betfair in the coming months. The numbers have dropped dramtically with increasing charges and more are on the way. The liquidity is their markets has slackened.

Looks like betdaq could possibly overtake them as the main market leader over the next 12 months. Matchbook are also coming onto the scene.

wouldnt be so sure as to "there wont be many using betfair".

the charges will not affect the average punter..they will only affect the big punters\layers.

BTW how do you know the numbers have dropped?..have you an actual figure?

mike65

Liquidity betdaq v betfair is about 4:1 in favour of betfair for the 7.10 tonight, £152,577 v £531,620 just before the off.

For horse racing is liquidity an issue with betdaq?

Fursttimer

Fursttimer wrote: »

There won't be many using betfair in the coming months. The numbers have dropped dramtically with increasing charges and more are on the way. The liquidity is their markets has slackened.

Looks like betdaq could possibly overtake them as the main market leader over the next 12 months. Matchbook are also coming onto the scene.

Interesting post, can you elaborate please?

Fursttimer

mike65 wrote: »

Liquidity betdaq v betfair is about 4:1 in favour of betfair for the 7.10 tonight, £152,577 v £531,620 just before the off.

For horse racing is liquidity an issue with betdaq?

It's easy to single out some markets and argue my point.

Take the Open Championship, Betfair have traded £7,250,000 to now while Betdaq €21,500,000 (that's just the outright market!)

Horse-racing wise the gap has shortened. On average there isn't generally as high a gap recently as the market you displayed.

My point being that flocks of people are leaving betfair and it will continue to a point that they may not be the leader in the exhange market this time next year.

albert kidd

Fursttimer wrote: »

It's easy to single out some markets and argue my point.

Take the Open Championship, Betfair have traded £7,250,000 to now while Betdaq €21,500,000 (that's just the outright market!)

Horse-racing wise the gap has shortened. On average there isn't generally as high a gap recently as the market you displayed.

My point being that flocks of people are leaving betfair and it will continue to a point that they may not be the leader in the exhange market this time next year.

how do you know flocks are leaving?

i see you swerved my reply above aswell:rolleyes:

J-Fit

I think what Furstimer means is this: A few weeks ago it was announced by Betfair that the current premium charge rate of roughly 20% of gross profits is now being increased to as much 60% of profitable punter's profits based on overall charges generated. Betfair stayed very quite about this at the time, only posting it on its forums and not even in languages other than English so as to minimise it's widespread impact which is likely going to be considerable (the share price has been in freefall lately). It's all because the company has gone public of course and the need to generate profits is now king over the once treasured desire to provide a viable platform for punters to have a bet with each other. Essentially, Betfair has sold out and though this new 60% tax on profits will only affect the bigger earners, it is they who provide Betfair's precious liquidity so by extension, everybody will be affected because the big guys and the market makers are going on strike and not coming back. Betfair looks like getting involved in its own markets with the use of bots so if you a trader, you will be fighting against the machines essentially, not other gamblers. There is a big online movement towards a strike on July 18th, the date that the new charge will come into effect, and a very positive drive towards the use of other exchanges such as Betdaq and Smarkets. It's like this: if you are really successful, Betfair will take 60% of what you won, basically eroding any edge you thought you had. Betdaq will take just 2.5%. Pretty much a no-brainer.

More info here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Betfair-Premium-Charge-Fiasco/232172673473703

albert kidd

J-Fit wrote: »

I think what Furstimer means is this: A few weeks ago it was announced by Betfair that the current premium charge rate of roughly 20% of gross profits is now being increased to as much 60% of profitable punter's profits based on overall charges generated. Betfair stayed very quite about this at the time, only posting it on its forums and not even in languages other than English so as to minimise it's widespread impact which is likely going to be considerable (the share price has been in freefall lately). It's all because the company has gone public of course and the need to generate profits is now king over the once treasured desire to provide a viable platform for punters to have a bet with each other. Essentially, Betfair has sold out and though this new 60% tax on profits will only affect the bigger earners, it is they who provide Betfair's precious liquidity so by extension, everybody will be affected because the big guys and the market makers are going on strike and not coming back. Betfair looks like getting involved in its own markets with the use of bots so if you a trader, you will be fighting against the machines essentially, not other gamblers. There is a big online movement towards a strike on July 18th, the date that the new charge will come into effect, and a very positive drive towards the use of other exchanges such as Betdaq and Smarkets. It's like this: if you are really successful, Betfair will take 60% of what you won, basically eroding any edge you thought you had. Betdaq will take just 2.5%. Pretty much a no-brainer.

More info here: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Betfair-Premium-Charge-Fiasco/232172673473703

Betdaq will also up the commision if the big players do jump ship i reckon.

if the big guns do move,Betdaq will have to review how it runs its site..because at the moment the deposit is 2 grand a day on there for the first month on a new account and 5 grand a day after..that will not suit the needs of those looking to jump ship id imagine..

J-Fit

albert kidd wrote: »

Betdaq will also up the commision if the big players do jump ship i reckon.

if the big guns do move,Betdaq will have to review how it runs its site..because at the moment the deposit is 2 grand a day on there for the first month on a new account and 5 grand a day after..that will not suit the needs of those looking to jump ship id imagine..

Doesn't matter if they up it. The successful traders on Betfair are already paying 20%+ and if they all jump to Betdaq, the monopoly will have been broken. Daq will never go to 60% because Betfair's abusive position would no longer be tenable, whilst the added competition would force charges down. There is negotiations going on in the background with Betdaq and Smarkets anyway to avoid that scenario.

albert kidd

J-Fit wrote: »

Doesn't matter if they up it. The successful traders on Betfair are already paying 20%+ and if they all jump to Betdaq, the monopoly will have been broken. Daq will never go to 60% because Betfair's abusive position would no longer be tenable, whilst the added competition would force charges down. There is negotiations going on in the background with Betdaq and Smarkets anyway to avoid that scenario.

i hope the big boys do make the move..while the charges dont affect me directly,i think its disgusting what betfair are trying to do..

but on the flip side,the same noise was heard from them when the pc charges were introduced and the same threats were made of leaving and it come of notting..so who knows.

J-Fit

albert kidd wrote: »

i hope the big boys do make the move..while the charges dont affect me directly,i think its disgusting what betfair are trying to do..

but on the flip side,the same noise was heard from them when the pc charges were introduced and the same threats were made of leaving and it come of notting..so who knows.

True but that was 20%, people could just about swallow that. 60% is a whole different ball game.

albert kidd

J-Fit wrote: »

True but that was 20%, people could just about swallow that. 60% is a whole different ball game.

yeah i agree taking more of the profits you'd get yarself is pure madness.

i still reckon some behind the scenes agreement will be done with those who it will affect and all this will blow over and soon be forgotten.

J-Fit

Interesting blog post.

http://green-all-over.blogspot.com/2011/07/competition.html

albert kidd

J-Fit wrote: »

Interesting blog post.

http://green-all-over.blogspot.com/2011/07/competition.html

cheers,ill have a read.

jjll

im not sure about betfair

J-Fit

They calculate amounts matched differently on Betdaq but over £1 million was matched on a race there today. I personally have never seen that before on Daq. Things could be starting to change.

LOTTOWINNER

Is the site down?

The Walsho

Yep. Follow their Twitter accounts to keep up with news.

J-Fit

LOTTOWINNER wrote: »

Is the site down?

Yet another reason to go to Betdaq. I simply can't believe how these people at Betfair keep getting away with this. There is people's money on the line and this is at least the 4th major outage this year. I lost a packet in the one in Feb when I couldn't trade out of a bet. Totally moved to Betdaq yesterday and have been given 2.5% commission there for those that are interested. You do have to ask for this to be applied to your account.