Passive (or near) House Plans - Comments Please

BarneyMc

Hi,

My architect has just drawn up house plans for me for a passive or near passive house (see attached). On each drawing it shows the orientation, the large glazed areas obviously to the south. The house would face west.

This angle shows the view from the road and would be looking at the house from the west so would show the front. The house would be roughly where the cattle are and the northern wall would be fairly well hidden by the hedge.

Anyway all comments on the internal layout, external looks, orientation, build method or other are welcome.

Thank you please!

Barney

muffler

First thing that caught my eye was the lack of entry to the living room at the back of the kitchen

4 metres is very long for the ES. Have you considered taking maybe 1.2 - 1.5m off it and use that space as a wardrobe for either bed 3 or bed 4 or split it between the two bedrooms. Or alternatively use this surplus space as a closet opening out to the landing. You can never have enough wee storage areas. Shortening the ES would also leave you a direct external outlet for the WC waste pipe.

Mellor

muffler wrote: »

First thing that caught my eye was the lack of entry to the living room at the back of the kitchen

I would of though getting out of the porch was more of an issue

4 metres is very long for the ES. Have you considered taking maybe 1.2 - 1.5m off it and use that space as a wardrobe for either bed 3 or bed 4 or split it between the two bedrooms. Or alternatively use this surplus space as a closet opening out to the landing. You can never have enough wee storage areas. Shortening the ES would also leave you a direct external outlet for the WC waste pipe.

Agree with this, a landing storage would be my choice

Poor Uncle Tom

Your bathroom is going to be very dark, consider some internal high level glass walling, maybe.

Do you really need two doors into the living room, consider closing off the door from the kitchen area.

A pantry would be nice off the kitchen.

Putting doors in the corners of rooms also limits wall usage space, particularly in the kitchen area.

WhatNowForUs?

In what way is the house going to be "near passive" do you have any detail for the services that are going to be used.

The orination seems good on ground floor.
First floor I havn't looked at


If you are primarily interested in a passive house I would be thinking of

• moving the utilities room into a more central location.
• seperating the toilet from the shower room etc.

Would I be right in saying that its a first draft and the architect just wants to see if you are happy with the layout?

sinnerboy

Take space off the Bed 4 En Suite to locate the HRV unit accessed from the landing . Central location is best as you must clean the filters often .

Why not give balcony spaces to beds 2 +3 to maximise shading to rooms below

sinnerboy

The living room is tight . Square off the entrance lobby and open up to the stairway . then remove the door between the enlarged living space and kitchen diner. Move the entrance door off the windy West elevation to the south . Buy only a PHI certified entrance door and trust the seals on it rather than chopping your space up here. Consider a wrap around glazed screen to the SW corner. Chase the sun!

Remove the partition between the kitchen diner and room above and place a window in the East Elevation . Let the morning sun in here.

Swap the Utility and Toilet over and remove partition and door which now encloses the toilet

Open the plan up ! You have to live in it .

sinnerboy

Fit a fully glazed double doorset into the Kitchen diner from the enlarged living area. Wide as possible .

BarneyMc

Thanks all for your very useful comments, it's given me some great new things to consider. Proves the point that 87 heads are better than 2!

Here's some replies to some of your comments:

muffler wrote: »

First thing that caught my eye was the lack of entry to the living room at the back of the kitchen.

muffler wrote: »

4 metres is very long for the ES. Have you considered taking maybe 1.2 - 1.5m off it and use that space as a wardrobe for either bed 3 or bed 4 or split it between the two bedrooms. Or alternatively use this surplus space as a closet opening out to the landing. You can never have enough wee storage areas. Shortening the ES would also leave you a direct external outlet for the WC waste pipe.

Yes good call on both, think I’ll go for this.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Do you really need two doors into the living room, consider closing off the door from the kitchen area.

Which door would you suggest? Don’t think I could remove any of them but see your point about too many doors.

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

A pantry would be nice off the kitchen.

Not sure where this would fit?

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

In what way is the house going to be "near passive" do you have any detail for the services that are going to be used.

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Sorry, not yet.

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that its a first draft and the architect just wants to see if you are happy with the layout?

Not finalised yet, just getting ideas.

sinnerboy wrote: »

Why not give balcony spaces to beds 2 +3 to maximise shading to rooms below

Sounds like a good idea.

sinnerboy wrote: »

The living room is tight . Square off the entrance lobby and open up to the stairway . then remove the door between the enlarged living space and kitchen diner. Move the entrance door off the windy West elevation to the south . Buy only a PHI certified entrance door and trust the seals on it rather than chopping your space up here. Consider a wrap around glazed screen to the SW corner. Chase the sun!

sinnerboy wrote: »

Remove the partition between the kitchen diner and room above and place a window in the East Elevation . Let the morning sun in here.

Swap the Utility and Toilet over and remove partition and door which now encloses the toilet

Open the plan up ! You have to live in it .

OK so basically remove the wall behind the sofa? Might work but would be a large area IMHO. Maybe keep the wall directly behind the sofa but have 2 sets of double doors going into the living room from the front hall so they could be open and closed as need be? Plus remove the single door going from the dining area into the living room.

AMG86

Keep the focus on getting the fabric right. Later you can go for decoration, furnishings, etc. Talk to your architect about Passive House standards. You may not wish to go that far but keep them in mind. If you get the fabric right particularly in terms of airtightness, insulation and ventilation the future energy costs will be low. This will give you something to play with later on.

BarneyMc

AMG86 wrote: »

Keep the focus on getting the fabric right. Later you can go for decoration, furnishings, etc.

It's the layout I want to get right at this stage, not the decoration or furnishing.

sinnerboy

Pictures are better than words ....

sas

sinnerboy wrote: »

Buy only a PHI certified entrance door and trust the seals on it rather than chopping your space up here.

In the interests of fully informed decisions, certified PH entrance doors cost in and around €5000. They are an anamoly even in the PH certified window systems in that it's virtually impossible to determine why they cost that much. Difficult to determine what they are so much more than the windows.

sinnerboy

Ooops. Compromise so and seek out the next best. That cost is hard to justify.

BryanF

sas wrote: »

In the interests of fully informed decisions, certified PH entrance doors cost in and around €5000. They are an anamoly even in the PH certified window systems in that it's virtually impossible to determine why they cost that much. Difficult to determine what they are so much more than the windows.

I understand from doing the PH training that one passive builders/designers up west direction, recommends a lobby with two reasonably good doors to get over this

sas

BryanF wrote: »

I understand from doing the PH training that one passive builders/designers up west direction, recommends a lobby with two reasonably good doors to get over this

Can't comment. You don't need to use certified doors though for a PH. Neither of mine are certified, back and front. They are based around the window system components and have the insulated frame the whole way around. I will incur a cold bridge for these but it shouldn't be the end of the world.

My main entrance door is inside a thermall broken lobby. The outer door being a cheaper door.

2 reasonably good doors (depending on your definition) bought from a PH window company will cost more than a certified PH door in my experience incidently.

BarneyMc

sinnerboy wrote: »

Pictures are better than words ....

Thanks very much for taking the time to do this sinnerboy... your sins are forgiven! Here's my comments on your suggestions starting at the top of your sketch:

New 'Morning Sun' window
Had a window here initially and I decided against it. There's a high hedge behind the house here and there would be very little morning sun entering here anyway. I think I'd rather have some wall space instead of more glass.

Remove wall between top room and kitchen
Not so sure about this. I would greatly reduce wall space for cupboards, etc and overall I think the area would be too big. Also it would mean I'd have to put the cooker beside the sink.

Switch Utility and WC
This looks like a good idea. I'll speak with my architect about this and see if it makes sense.

Glass Doors
Yes this might work well. About removing the wall splitting the front hall and the living room I'm not so sure about though. Would it be odd to have a staircase in the living room? If I decide to keep the wall then maybe the existing door from the living room into the kitchen should be moved so it leads into the front hall, otherwise there would be a lot of doors going into the kitchen.

New Entrance
Again not so keen on this. It would mean the 'front' of the house wouldn't have a door. Not sure then planners would let me away with this anyway. Just as much of the driving wind comes from thw south anyway so I'm not sure what benefit this would bring?

Again thanks for all comments, it's good to get ideas from the smart guys!:D

muffler

BarneyMc wrote: »

it's good to get ideas from the smart guys!:D

When you're around here long enough that may change to "smart asses"

sas

Any plans for a stove Barney?

BarneyMc

sas wrote: »

Any plans for a stove Barney?

Yes sir, was going to ask about this!

Considering the current layout where best would this sit?

I'd also like to bring the flue up and through the first floor - is this possible and again where best to place it?

sas

I was thinking the least impacting location is on the North wall of your east living room.

Followed by the east wall of your east living room. This would require a slight layout change in your master suite layout.

You can bring your chimney up through the floor, it's how I've done mine. I built with block and have hollowcore floors.

Word of warning though, the best location thermall speaking is for the chimney to be outside the body of the house. This depends on your build method too though, if you were going with blocks\EWI and this is a real pain and best avoided.

Go for something with a back boiler too. I'll PM on the stove I've been recommended to go with for a PH.

BarneyMc

I was considering somewhere more central in the house like the dining area, either on the wall dividing the dining area with the hall or to replace the exising door between the dining area and the front living room with a stove. Excuse my ignorance but does a back boiler mean the stove has to sit on an external wall?

Excuse my ignorance again but is it not possible to just have a flue going up through the house and out through the roof (no need for an actual chimney)? That way the heat in the flue could help heat the house as it rises? If the stove is not lit then I suppose this means that there is a cooling effect?

sas

BarneyMc wrote: »

I was considering somewhere more central in the house like the dining area, either on the wall dividing the dining area with the hall or to replace the exising door between the dining area and the front living room with a stove. Excuse my ignorance but does a back boiler mean the stove has to sit on an external wall?

Excuse my ignorance again but is it not possible to just have a flue going up through the house and out through the roof (no need for an actual chimney)? That way the heat in the flue could help heat the house as it rises? If the stove is not lit then I suppose this means that there is a cooling effect?

No, back boiler doesn't affect location of the flue afaik. Locating it (the stove) close to your water tank is a good idea though.

Sorry, I tend to interchange the term flue and chimney. I have a chimney into the attic space and a flue from there. If you look for me in the live self builds thread this will make more sense!

Yes, a cooling effect, exactly. You presumably would have a room sealed stove with it's own air supply. When the stove is not lit you have a cold flow of air through this flue up the centre of your house, drawing heat with it. The PH insisted that I install 2 dampers to close off the air intake and the chimney to reduce this effect. If the chimney had been outside the body of the house I wouldn't have needed the dampers.

Final warning, double skinned metal flues have a predicted life span of 10 years. They are damn bloody expensive to have to replace every 10 years even before you factor in the labour costs of replacing it.

BigGeorge

The blog I've been doing of our PH self build might be of interest, have learned a lot from the folks in this group/forum over the last year who have been very generous with their opinions & suggestions so the blog might help others get started or get ideas

http://passivebuild.blogspot.com/

BarneyMc

I'm considering removing the front porch and just having an outside door lead into the front hall. As the house will be west facing there will be considerable wind blowing at the front. Are there doors available now that'll be "air tight" or would I be better sticking with a front porch to help counter any draft?

BryanF

BarneyMc wrote: »

Are there doors available now that'll be "air tight"

yes

BarneyMc

ok, thanks BryanF, will ditch the front porch me thinks:D

BigGeorge

So the wind did not blow straight into the house ( also west facing) we were able to turn the door 90 degree so that if faced north.

My understanding is that the BER rewards having a porch / second entrance door, whereas the PHPP does not. If you do then you need to decide if it inside or outside the thermal envelope for PHPP purposes

BarneyMc

Getting my site plans drawn up now. My architect is proposing to tilt the house just 10 degrees north of due west. This means that the glazed south side will be tilted 10 degrees to the west.

There is no major reason for this other than the fact that it will face directly into the corner of the field. From an energy performance position will this make much difference rather than keeping the south side facing direct south (plan images attached at start of thread)?

Do-more

Hi BarneyMc, has your architect done a PHPP on your design yet?

I'm assuming he hasn't, as if he had the PHPP would quickly tell you what effect the change in orientation will have.

It seems like you have pretty much arrived at your layout now, so the next logical step would be to do a PHPP to see how the building is going to perform as it is drawn now and what effect any changes will have.

The PHPP will give a pretty good assessment of what the energy performance of the building is likely to be and as the saying goes "if you're not assessing, you're guessing".

BarneyMc

Hi Do-more. No, my architect said he will do the PHPP after the plans have gone through the planning process. Should he be doing it before it goes through the planning process do you think?

BryanF

BarneyMc wrote: »

Hi Do-more. No, my architect said he will do the PHPP after the plans have gone through the planning process. Should he be doing it before it goes through the planning process do you think?

ask yourself how do you tweak or change things after you've got planning? what the PHPP is advocating is a slightly more front loaded design process, than we are accustomed to in Ireland. what this allows for, is a more thought-out house design before it is fixed by the LA planning permission.

Do-more

BarneyMc wrote: »

Hi Do-more. No, my architect said he will do the PHPP after the plans have gone through the planning process. Should he be doing it before it goes through the planning process do you think?

As Bryan has said you really need to do the PHPP before the planning application is made otherwise you lose a lot of the opportunity to improve your house's performance.

Take for example this question you have regarding the orientation of the house, waiting until planning is complete is too late to decide on that, but running a PHPP now will give you clear answers as to what effect such changes will cause.

Your Architect is probably concerned that if planning is rejected outright then the money spent on the PHPP will have been wasted but if he waits until after planning has been granted he is wasting a big part of the chance of improving your house's performance.

Speaking of my own experience we arrived at a design that I was happy to go to planning with and then ran the PHPP and adopted a number of changes as a result so I now know that if I get planning (fingers crossed, I should know the result in two weeks time) I will not be able to go direct to tender without any changes or worry about whether I will have to seek retention etc.

BarneyMc

Do-more wrote: »

Your Architect is probably concerned that if planning is rejected outright then the money spent on the PHPP will have been wasted but if he waits until after planning has been granted he is wasting a big part of the chance of improving your house's performance.

Yes I think you've hit the nail on the head here. Thanks BryanF and Do-more for this advice, I'll use it!

BryanF

taken from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76772646#post76772646 where Barney referred to this thread and asked:

BarneyMc wrote: »

My only concern is that the rear projection does not fit in well with the compact design principle. Plans, etc. are here. Thanks.

its been two months since we discussed this,

1. have you had a pre-planning to fix the design and get an understanding from the planners that it does not need to change? (I appreciate they rarely give applicants with that confidence)
2. also have you run the phpp as this is what you need to do to answer your question.

I'm currently designing a non-standard non-south facing house and intend it balance the phpp (& house spec etc) to suit my design (site, layout,client requirements, orientation etc) as opposed to designing the house to suit phpp.. if you get my meaning.. hope this helps

Eoghan Barra

sas wrote: »

In the interests of fully informed decisions, certified PH entrance doors cost in and around €5000.

Sas, how does that compare to non-certified PH entrance doors in price terms?

BarneyMc

BryanF wrote: »

taken from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76772646#post76772646 where Barney referred to this thread and asked:
its been two months since we discussed this,

1. have you had a pre-planning to fix the design and get an understanding from the planners that it does not need to change? (I appreciate they rarely give applicants with that confidence

Yes met with the planners and they're perfectly ok with the layout as is.

BryanF wrote: »

also have you run the phpp as this is what you need to do to answer your question.

No, perhaps I should now that the planners are ok with it. I'll ask my architect to do this. Cheers!

BarneyMc

I've also recently considered removing the office on the ground floor (think I'll just set up a work area in the room at the back of the ground floor), brining the utility to the front of the house and incorporating the WC and back hall into the main body of the house (where the old utility used to be).

This would mean not having to build an "annex" for the WC and back hall which I'd imagine would be a bit messy to build (wide cavity construction)???

sas

Eoghan Barra wrote: »

Sas, how does that compare to non-certified PH entrance doors in price terms?

Doors for a PH (certified or not) are outrageously expensive for some unknown reason. You'd still be in the 3500 region from my pricing last year.

The only difference between the doors and an equivalent sized window is the threshold, yet for some reason they charge so much more for them.

BarneyMc

sas wrote: »

Doors for a PH (certified or not) are outrageously expensive for some unknown reason. You'd still be in the 3500 region from my pricing last year.

The only difference between the doors and an equivalent sized window is the threshold, yet for some reason they charge so much more for them.

Perhaps a porch (outside the building envelope) with 2 non PH doors would be a more cost effective alternative? Then again there's the porch building costs including the extra door.

sas

BarneyMc wrote: »

Perhaps a porch (outside the building envelope) with 2 non PH doors would be a more cost effective alternative? Then again there's the porch building costs including the extra door.

Don't know enough to comment. In my case I have a porch but the inner door is passive spec anyway.

Eoghan Barra

sas wrote: »

Doors for a PH (certified or not) are outrageously expensive for some unknown reason. You'd still be in the 3500 region from my pricing last year.

The only difference between the doors and an equivalent sized window is the threshold, yet for some reason they charge so much more for them.

Thanks for that, sas. Swindlers the lot of them. May have to consider sub-passive spec. doors so.

BarneyMc

BryanF wrote: »

taken from http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76772646#post76772646 where Barney referred to this thread and asked:
its been two months since we discussed this,

1. have you had a pre-planning to fix the design and get an understanding from the planners that it does not need to change? (I appreciate they rarely give applicants with that confidence)
2. also have you run the phpp as this is what you need to do to answer your question.

I'm currently designing a non-standard non-south facing house and intend it balance the phpp (& house spec etc) to suit my design (site, layout,client requirements, orientation etc) as opposed to designing the house to suit phpp.. if you get my meaning.. hope this helps

Based on my plans just how much much should a PHPP cost? I'm beginning to see my expenses soar without even an application to the planners! Will the PHPP pay for itself or would a DEAP do? I'll be building wide cavity and am thinking maybe the cost of the PHPP I've been quoted would be better spent on the actual build itself. Confused.com

BryanF

BarneyMc wrote: »

Based on my plans just how much much should a PHPP cost? I'm beginning to see my expenses soar without even an application to the planners! Will the PHPP pay for itself or would a DEAP do? I'll be building wide cavity and am thinking maybe the cost of the PHPP I've been quoted would be better spent on the actual build itself. Confused.com

measure twice, cut once
if nothing else help you decide the best glazing to use, which should save you the cost of the process. see recent thread by FClauson

sinnerboy

BarneyMc wrote: »

Based on my plans just how much much should a PHPP cost? I'm beginning to see my expenses soar without even an application to the planners! Will the PHPP pay for itself or would a DEAP do? I'll be building wide cavity and am thinking maybe the cost of the PHPP I've been quoted would be better spent on the actual build itself. Confused.com

It takes me the best part of a working week to prepare A PHPP. Maybe some others have picked up more work at this and are therefore more proficient. So I reckon a fee of between Eu750-1000 would be about right.

BarneyMc wrote: »

Getting my site plans drawn up now. My architect is proposing to tilt the house just 10 degrees north of due west. This means that the glazed south side will be tilted 10 degrees to the west.

There is no major reason for this other than the fact that it will face directly into the corner of the field. From an energy performance position will this make much difference rather than keeping the south side facing direct south (plan images attached at start of thread)?

If you feel you need a measured answer to these kind of questions - you need a PHPP analysis. Once done - it is relatively simple to ask many many "what if" questions like this.

BarneyMc

sinnerboy wrote: »

It takes me the best part of a working week to prepare A PHPP. Maybe some others have picked up more work at this and are therefore more proficient. So I reckon a fee of between Eu750-1000 would be about right.

Eu750-1000 seems like a good week's pay in these times! I should have been an architect!

sinnerboy wrote: »

If you feel you need a measured answer to these kind of questions - you need a PHPP analysis. Once done - it is relatively simple to ask many many "what if" questions like this.

Yes good point. I guess these are the things I wanted to hear and not just have a pretty spreadsheet to stare at. Convinced, I'll go ahead with a PHPP.

Just one last question, should I/the architect be identifying these "what if's" now so when the PHPP is completed they can be answered by the PHPP? Rather than "now that we've got the PHPP" what shall we do with it?

Thanks for all the help with this guys!

sas

BarneyMc wrote: »

Eu750-1000 seems like a good week's pay in these times! I should have been an architect!

Less tax, less PI insurance and less on going training costs. We've all acknowledged that building a house has become a much more complicated affair. I'm sure the licenses for some of the software required are steep.

And for those that don't know me, no, I'm not an Architect.

beyondpassive

The PHPP analysis work should involve more than simply populating the spreadsheet to build a thermal performance model, it should inform a report. A poster here supply's this as part of the service. This report will be included in any tender and will highlight where the building is losing heat or gaining solar overheating, it should also act as guidance to any builder as to what level of workmanship is required for airtightness and continuity of insulation. the importance of incorporating the MHRV in the fabric design. Usually reports would also include visual thermal bridge analysis for eaves and footings and a performance specification for the window suppliers. many reports run to over twenty pages. The report can also size the heating system based on worst case weather data and give options in that area. For many projects it makes sense to design fro the inside out, design the heating system and then spec the fabric to optimise the performance of the heating system, be it gas/solar/thermal store/underfloor or Heat pump/thermal store/PV array.

Its easy to make changes to the building model and that's its genius, it can inform decisions, especially with regard to window selection. So agree with sinnerboy, its more than a weeks work and is the best money you can spend, even at twice the price, but then I would say that.

BarneyMc

sas wrote: »

Less tax, less PI insurance and less on going training costs. We've all acknowledged that building a house has become a much more complicated affair. I'm sure the licenses for some of the software required are steep.

And for those that don't know me, no, I'm not an Architect.

Fair points.

BarneyMc

beyondpassive wrote: »

The PHPP analysis work should involve more than simply populating the spreadsheet to build a thermal performance model, it should inform a report. A poster here supply's this as part of the service. This report will be included in any tender and will highlight where the building is losing heat or gaining solar overheating, it should also act as guidance to any builder as to what level of workmanship is required for airtightness and continuity of insulation. the importance of incorporating the MHRV in the fabric design. Usually reports would also include visual thermal bridge analysis for eaves and footings and a performance specification for the window suppliers. many reports run to over twenty pages. The report can also size the heating system based on worst case weather data and give options in that area. For many projects it makes sense to design fro the inside out, design the heating system and then spec the fabric to optimise the performance of the heating system, be it gas/solar/thermal store/underfloor or Heat pump/thermal store/PV array.

Its easy to make changes to the building model and that's its genius, it can inform decisions, especially with regard to window selection. So agree with sinnerboy, its more than a weeks work and is the best money you can spend, even at twice the price, but then I would say that.

Thanks for this, I'll request a similar report from my architect. Sounds like good value to me now!

sinnerboy

In fairness I should have stated PHPP + report as BP outlined in some detail there.