BBC One HD & BBC HD transponders going DVB-S2

Damomanye

A blogpost on the BBC website says today..

We will shortly be making such a change to the satellite transponder that carries BBC One HD & BBC HD. The signal on this transponder is currently broadcast using a modulation scheme called "DVB-S". On 6 June we will be upgrading to a newer "DVB-S2" scheme.

Full Blog Post Here

Does this mean that those of us with Sky+HD box who have BBCOneHD tuned in Via other channels option will now loose the channel as i believe Sky+HD boxes cannot tune DVB-S2 (Like Channel 4HD)

Minstrel27

Looks like it.

How much extra transponder space does moving to DVB-S2 create?

kmurph

Will it also mean losing BBC HD (143)?

Minstrel27

BBC HD will be fine.

Dman001

What benefits will this (if any) bring to the audience?

watty

It's got no direct effect for audience, this could have been the situation from the start. It saves bandwidth thus money and allows more services.

Sky should be thumped in EU courts. EU requires that their box be able to receive non-Sky FTA TV. Only implementing QPSK and 27500 or 22000 SR is a scandal. It should allow any SR from 1500 to 40000 roughtly and all the APSK levels as well as QPSK.

Ofcom are of course useless.

Dave_Dublin

watty wrote: »

Sky should be thumped in EU courts. EU requires that their box be able to receive non-Sky FTA TV. Only implementing QPSK and 27500 or 22000 SR is a scandal. It should allow any SR from 1500 to 40000 roughtly and all the APSK levels as well as QPSK.

Another thing my neighbours (who have cable) can gloat about as they have BBC ONE HD on their EPG.

Having an FEC of 8/9 is adding insult to injury as, even if we could add "S2" channels to our Sky boxes, we can't use the 8/9 setting or the 23000 SR . . .

kmurph

Don't suppose there's any chance that BBC1 HD will be added to the EPG then?

watty

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

Another thing my neighbours (who have cable) can gloat about as they have BBC ONE HD on their EPG.

Having an FEC of 8/9 is adding insult to injury as, even if we could add "S2" channels to our Sky boxes, we can't use the 8/9 setting or the 23000 SR . . .

Get a Freesat HD box and cancel Sky in Protest (or downgrade package). It will work of your dish and no subscription. Unless you have multiroom you can connect both boxes.

A few Sky HD boxes work UK EPG without Irish card. Mine does

liamtech

watty wrote: »

It's got no direct effect for audience, this could have been the situation from the start. It saves bandwidth thus money and allows more services.

Sky should be thumped in EU courts. EU requires that their box be able to receive non-Sky FTA TV. Only implementing QPSK and 27500 or 22000 SR is a scandal. It should allow any SR from 1500 to 40000 roughtly and all the APSK levels as well as QPSK.

Ofcom are of course useless.

Watty a while back you gave an excellent description of FEC (forward error correction) and its relation to Symbol rate and signal redundancy. Any chance you could explain this for us again - i cant remember the thread it as in and i havve searched for the last while -

As i understand it the lower FEC the better 2/3 3/4 excellent - 5/6 OK, 8/9 Not the may west - but as i recall their is a link with symbol rate - Basically as far as i can see this new settings for BBChd+1HD will have far less redundancy - is that right.

watty

liamtech wrote: »

Watty a while back you gave an excellent description of FEC (forward error correction) and its relation to Symbol rate and signal redundancy. Any chance you could explain this for us again - i cant remember the thread it as in and i havve searched for the last while -

As i understand it the lower FEC the better 2/3 3/4 excellent - 5/6 OK, 8/9 Not the may west - but as i recall their is a link with symbol rate - Basically as far as i can see this new settings for BBChd+1HD will have far less redundancy - is that right.

yes. it is, but it may make no difference to a well aligned dish.
Astra 2D is as good all over Ireland as in UK.
It depend on transponder power, Symbol rate and also Modulation QPSK, 16APSK or 32APSK etc)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVB-S2
"DVB-S2 achieves a significantly better performance than its predecessors – mainly allowing for an increase of available bitrate over the same satellite transponder bandwidth. The measured DVB-S2 performance gain over DVB-S is around 30% at the same satellite transponder bandwidth and emitted signal power. "

So it can run at lower FEC for same overall robustness.

Saorsat at the minute is using DVB-S2 with QPSK (more robust than any APSK) and FEC 1/2 with only SR 25000. Are they expecting low power on Transponders or wanting soup bowl aerials in the rain in Co.Antrim? I don't know but have asked

I would assume the Beeb and Arqiva or whoever know what they are doing.

Dman001

watty wrote: »

Get a Freesat HD box and cancel Sky in Protest (or downgrade package). It will work of your dish and no subscription. Unless you have multiroom you can connect both boxes.

A few Sky HD boxes work UK EPG without Irish card. Mine does

That's what I'm currently doing with a Sky HD box. I much prefer Sky's EPG than Freesat's one. I can load the English EPG so have all the FTA channels, including C4HD, BBC1 HD, BBC HD and ITV HD. I can even record them using a work around.

liamtech

Several code rates for flexible configuration of transmission parameters: 1/4, 1/3, 2/5, 1/2, 3/5, 2/3, 3/4, 4/5, 5/6, 8/9, and 9/10. Code rates 1/4, 1/3, and 2/5 have been introduced for exceptionally poor reception conditions in combination with QPSK modulation. Encoding values 8/9 and 9/10 behave poorly under marginal link conditions (where the signal level is below the noise level). However, with targeted spot Ku or Ka band downlinks these code rates may be recommended to prevent out-of-region viewing for copyright or cultural reasons.

So it must be to do with limiting the receipt of BBC HD material outside of the UK Spot beam coverage (Maybe). Still it concerns me as ive had issues with dish allignment - I have always had perfect Astra 2D reception so perhaps that will suffice - But several transponders are consistently weaker than the rest - 11222H for example - I only noticed this when CBS action moved to said transponder - My satellite receiver states the Signal Power/Quality of 96/10.8dB for all of Astra 2D but for 11222H: 70/5.2dB - That being said i have never seen any picture break-up even in windy weather -

kierank01

I presume this means that we will need to re-tune if on an FTA box?

energy1942

Dman001 wrote: »

That's what I'm currently doing with a Sky HD box. I much prefer Sky's EPG than Freesat's one. I can load the English EPG so have all the FTA channels, including C4HD, BBC1 HD, BBC HD and ITV HD. I can even record them using a work around.

Will it still be possible to watch BBC one hd using a uk white sky ftv card?

Apogee

kierank01 wrote: »

I presume this means that we will need to re-tune if on an FTA box?

Yes

energy1942 wrote: »

Will it still be possible to watch BBC one hd using a uk white sky ftv card?

Yes

Sponge Bob

Most existing FTA boxes and Most early Sky HD boxes or is that nearly all Sky HD boxes ( even with a white card) cannot decode DVB-S2 signals. At all or ever no matter what! Later model Sky HD boxes can decode it I believe.

Dman001

energy1942 wrote: »

Will it still be possible to watch BBC one hd using a uk white sky ftv card?

Well I believe that Channel 4 HD is broadcasting on DVB-S2, and I can watch that by loading the English EPG (by simply placing my Sky Card upside down into the box).

Apogee

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Most early Sky HD boxes or is that nearly all Sky HD boxes ( even with a white card) cannot decode DVB-S2 signals. At all or ever no matter what!

They wouldn't be much use as Sky HD boxes then, considering that Sky have broadcast their own HD channels using DVB-S2 since the start.

watty

It's true though that you can't manually enter DVB-S2 parameters on an Sky HD box. All Sky HD boxes and all Freesat HD boxes do DVB-S2.

I don't know of any modern MPEG4 HD satellite receiver that doesn't do DVB-S2.

I have an early Sky HD box. Fortunately it has the UK EPG. Not all do.

Trevord

watty wrote: »

all Freesat HD boxes do DVB-S2.

I thought there was an issue with some Harvard HD boxes being non DVB S2 compliant and that as a result they were in breech of whatever requirements exist in order to use the term Freesat ?

watty

If they don't do DVB-S2 they are not real "Freesat HD". Maybe they are just "Freesat" certified and happen to have HDMI or even MPEG4 H.264 L4. You can add "extras" on a Freesat box.

Dave_Dublin

Trevord wrote: »

I thought there was an issue with some Harvard HD boxes being non DVB S2 compliant and that as a result they were in breech of whatever requirements exist in order to use the term Freesat ?

ALL Sky HD boxes are DVB-S2 capable, otherwise they'd be useless as ALL Sky's own-branded HD channels are DVB-S2.

Sky's "Add Channels" feature cannot tune DVB-S2 channels manually meaning C4HD and now BBC ONE HD are unavailable on the "Other Channels" menu . . .

Dman001

watty wrote: »

I have an early Sky HD box. Fortunately it has the UK EPG. Not all do.

I always thought all Sky Boxes could load the English EPG through the Red Button/Upside Down card trick?

watty

Not all "Sky HD" boxes. Not same SW.

jonnygee

Trevord wrote: »

I thought there was an issue with some Harvard HD boxes being non DVB S2 compliant and that as a result they were in breech of whatever requirements exist in order to use the term Freesat ?

Yes, the first Harvard Freesat hd boxes were not made to correct spec and could not do dvb-s2 or were not bbc iplayer enabled. Later corrected.
When iplayer launched Harvard offered to exchange the boxes and some owners did so but paid the carraige costs of around 15 pounds.
Recently when ch4 hd launched using dvb-s2 owners (including me) who had not previously exchanged found they could not recieve it properly. Harvard offered to upgrade (exchange) the boxes but at higher cost of nearly the price of a new box.
I had one of the early boxes and took it back to the argos store in northern ireland 2 weeks ago where i had bought it and eventually after some "discussion" they agreed to give me a new box for 15 pounds which i accepted as the box was 3 years old.

Sponge Bob

Apogee wrote: »

They wouldn't be much use as Sky HD boxes then, considering that Sky have broadcast their own HD channels using DVB-S2 since the start.

Grand, I was left under the impression there were two iterations of HD for some reason. I never bothered with Sky HD seeing as the Sky HD boxes historically do not work properly in Freesat mode.

watty

There are more than two versions of Sky HD boxes, there used to be two iterations. But the difference wasn't DVB-S2

I don't remember what the difference is though. Maybe stuff like component.

enfant terrible

watty wrote: »

There are more than two versions of Sky HD boxes, there used to be two iterations. But the difference wasn't DVB-S2

I don't remember what the difference is though. Maybe stuff like component.

Ya my first Thompson box had component connections.

200motels

enfant terrible wrote: »

Ya my first Thompson box had component connections.

I still have that box and use as a multiroom box.

Minstrel27

Does anyone know what time this change is happening at?

Popeleo

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Does anyone know what time this change is happening at?

According to the Freesat Info channel (999 on Freesat epg), it's changing in a few hours - tomorrow morning between 2 am and 5.30 am

Minstrel27

All changed over.

bennyx_o

BBC One HD still working for me from Other Channels

Minstrel27

I would make sure to never delete it.

DigiDec

It seems to be still working but you can't add it to a new box or if it gets deleted.

bennyx_o

Makes sense! Have instructed the parents not to delete it

theShire

bennyx_o wrote: »

BBC One HD still working for me from Other Channels

Had BBC HD & BBC One HD tuned and working previously but as of this mornin there's no signal.
Odd, as I thought the Argus box was DVB-S2 compatible

Minstrel27

Retune them. I had to do this with a Technomate box. All was working fine after this.

desaparecidos

On the Mvision Combo you need to edit / add the transponder, then do a scan on your new transponder.

Use the values from here: http://en.kingofsat.net/pos-28.2E.php

10847
V
23000
DVB-S2 QPSK
8/9

Strawberry HillBilly

BBC1HD gone from SKY Other channels and no BBCHD not available to view on EPG anymore - message says no satellite signal being received

highdef

All good on UPC too, although this may not be the right place to mention it

Minstrel27

highdef wrote: »

All good on UPC too, although this may not be the right place to mention it

Any changes to the BBC transmission on satellite will have no effect on UPC viewers.

highdef

Yeah but I'm sure that they had to make changes to their receivers. I meant that they had made whatever changes were needed to continue to receive the channels.

Dave_Dublin

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

BBC1HD gone from SKY Other channels and no BBCHD not available to view on EPG anymore - message says no satellite signal being received

Same here : BBC HD says "No Sat Signal is being received" on EPG 143

ftakeith

desaparecidos wrote: »

On the Mvision Combo you need to edit / add the transponder, then do a scan on your new transponder.

Use the values from here: http://en.kingofsat.net/pos-28.2E.php

10847
V
23000
DVB-S2 QPSK
8/9

thank you it works for me on my mvision 300 combo

DigiDec

My BBC HD on 143 is fine and I still have BBC One HD working in my Other Channels, reboot your box and see if this corrects the problem.

Strawberry HillBilly

Reboot complete - No Joy - how could SKY be caught out like this ???

Machinehead

Dave_Dublin wrote: »

Same here : BBC HD says "No Sat Signal is being received" on EPG 143

It's the BeeB's fault. Even though the channels have a whole set of new variables, they have left the channel SID's the same. So your box is looking for SID 6940 BBC HD - it can find it but it's working off the old set of parameters & there's nothing there for it to find. If BBC change the SID's the box will then recognise them as new channels with different parameters from the old ones.

I Think;)

bennyx_o

I've checked the other HD box we have and BBC HD or BBC One HD both say no satellite signal being received. Box is an older Thompson box I believe, so maybe that has something to do with it?

DigiDec

Mmm, yes, this might have something to do with it alright, my 2 Amstards DRX890's are working OK with both BBC HD on ch 143 and BBC One HD in other channels.