Heineken Cup 2011/2012

theboss80

I posted this in expectations for next season but probably deserves a thread on its own. If mods disagree then feel free to remove.

The tiers for the Heineken Cup 2011/2012 have been announced ahead of the draw which takes place next Tuesday at 12pm. It will be streamed live on www.ercrugby.com

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2011/0...medium=twitter


Clubs and Tiers for 2011/12 Heineken Cup:

Tier 1 - Leinster, Toulouse, Munster, Cardiff Blues, Biarritz Olympique, Leicester Tigers.

Tier 2 - Northampton Saints, ASM Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys, Bath Rugby, Harlequins, London Irish.

Tier 3 - Ulster, Saracens, Gloucester Rugby, Glasgow Warriors, Scarlets, Edinburgh.

Tier 4 - Connacht, Benetton Treviso, Castres Olympique, Montpellier, Racing Metro 92, Aironi.

joseywhales

These tiers make no sense

Ospreys,Bath,London Irish and Harlequins? in tier two

while Montpellier, Racing Metro in tier four

and Saracens and Ulster in tier 3?

I particularly confused by Bath and Cardiff

thomond2006

joseywhales wrote: »

These tiers make no sense

Ospreys,Bath,London Irish and Harlequins? in tier two

while Montpellier, Racing Metro in tier four

and Saracens and Ulster in tier 3?

I particularly confused by Bath and Cardiff

It's based on European performance over the last 5 years. Some **** teams like Edinburgh and Glasgow get in every year automatically so they receive ranking points every year.

Montpellier have only emerged as a good team in the last 2 years, they weren't mapped before that. Racing have been in the top tier of rugby for the last 2 seasons. Cardiff have got to a quarter final, semi final and won the Amlin in the last few years. Last season was the first time in a while that Ospreys failed to get into the knockouts.

Ulster and Saracens are tier 3 because they've done **** all in Europe for ages (save Saracens getting to the semi in 07/08).

Possible Pool of Death!
(1) Leinster – Heineken Cup Champions, Magners League Finalists
(2) Northampton Saints – Heineken Cup runners up, Aviva Premiership semi-finalists
(3) Saracens – Aviva Premiership Finalists
(4) Montpellier – Top 14 Finalists (Final to be played this weekend)

That would be some pool. There are 7 English teams in the draw so one pool can contain two English sides.

Connacht could get a pool with Toulouse, Northampton and Saracens! If they get a pool with a Scottish side from Tier 3 they could do ok. A pool with Cardiff, Quins/LI and Glasgow/Edinburgh wouldn't be so bad. The branch will probably be hoping to avoid Cardiff though and get one of the other 3 in the pool to draw a crowd (they are not allowed to draw Munster or Leinster). There's a 33% chance that Toulouse will get Connacht because they can't draw a French team from Tier 4!

sock puppet

joseywhales wrote: »

These tiers make no sense

Ospreys,Bath,London Irish and Harlequins? in tier two

while Montpellier, Racing Metro in tier four

and Saracens and Ulster in tier 3?

I particularly confused by Bath and Cardiff

Amlin performances rank quite highly for some reason. Load of bollocks imo. The winner of the Amlin should at best get the same points as a Heineken Cup quarter finalist. Fix that plus give more weighting for recent performances and factor in domestic performances and it'd be perfect imo.

irishbucsfan

The masochist in me wants to draw Clermont again. Firstly because it's a great away trip. Secondly because I want us to beat them in Clermont-Ferrand this time.

Third_Echelon

Definitely some interesting groups can come out of that!

To be honest, the group of death mentioned there with Leinster, Saints, Saracens and Montpellier. I'd only really rate Montpellier as a real threat to win the group ahead of Leinster. Saints are a decent side, but didn't really have any proper tests along their route to the H Cup final this season. Easy group. Ulster in the QF probably were their toughest test. Saracens, I don't rate at all. Easily beaten this year in the H Cup. Next season? who knows...

Clermont is the one to try and avoid from tier 2 for sure!

theboss80

joseywhales wrote: »

These tiers make no sense

Ospreys,Bath,London Irish and Harlequins? in tier two

while Montpellier, Racing Metro in tier four

and Saracens and Ulster in tier 3?

I particularly confused by Bath and Cardiff

Northampton should be pissed at this

The seeding system employed by tournament organisers European Rugby Cup is based on performances in the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup over the past four years.
This year's beaten Heineken Cup finalists Northampton had the same ranking points as Leicester but were edged into the second tier because they missed out on the tournament in 2008-09.
One frustrating anomaly for the Saints is that their 2009 Challenge Cup victory was only worth five points, compared to the six earned by subsequent champions Cardiff and Harlequins.
ERC increased the ranking points available for winning the Challenge Cup when the competition was restructured to include teams dropping down from the Heineken Cup.
That one extra point would have earned Northampton a top seeding. Instead they are grouped with Clermont Auvergne, Ospreys, Bath, Harlequins and London Irish.

ormond lad

sock puppet wrote: »

Amlin performances rank quite highly for some reason. Load of bollocks imo. The winner of the Amlin should at best get the same points as a Heineken Cup quarter finalist. Fix that plus give more weighting for recent performances and factor in domestic performances and it'd be perfect imo.

With the 3 HEC teams now entering the Amlin successful teams in the amlin deserves higher points. The max points a team that wins the amlin gets is the same as a team that finished 2nd in their group getting to a semi final of the HEC. Any of the teams that reach the final/semi of the amlin would do well in the HEC as well. Look at this year munster harlequins stade francais and clermont would not look out of place as the 4 HEC semi finalists
How can you factor in domestic preformance, the domestic league is a different competition. teams like munster, leicester leinster toulouse should be seeded ahead of the likes of racing etc as they have proved over recent years their pedigree in europe. The rankings do give weight to recent peformances
Using soccer as an example, UEFA doesnt use domestic preformance to seed its draws for the champions league etc. It seeds teams on previous european performance

CIARAN_BOYLE

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The masochist in me wants to draw Clermont again. Firstly because it's a great away trip. Secondly because I want us to beat them in Clermont-Ferrand this time.

If Leinster draw Clermont they will have a relatively easy group since Clermont would guarantee Aironi or Treviso

sock puppet

ormond lad wrote: »

With the 3 HEC teams now entering the Amlin successful teams in the amlin deserves higher points. The max points a team that wins the amlin gets is the same as a team that finished 2nd in their group getting to a semi final of the HEC. Any of the teams that reach the final/semi of the amlin would do well in the HEC as well. Look at this year munster harlequins stade francais and clermont would not look out of place as the 4 HEC semi finalists

They really would.The Amlin is a second tier competition and the points should reflect that. By finishing second in their group Leicester had to play Leinster away and Ulster had to play Northampton away. Munster had to go to Brive...

How can you factor in domestic preformance, the domestic league is a different competition. teams like munster, leicester leinster toulouse should be seeded ahead of the likes of racing etc as they have proved over recent years their pedigree in europe.

If we were only using the past year's performance then yeah I'd agree. But it's 4 years making it very difficult for a side like Racing for instance to climb up the rankings. "Pedigree" doesn't matter a jot what should matter is their recent performances.

The rankings do give weight to recent peformances

They quite clearly don't.

danthefan

Cardiff won the Amlin and made the SF in 2009 (and were a penalty kick away from the final) so that's how they're ranked so high.

tolosenc

Clermont, Gloucester, Treviso/Aironi mightn't be a bad group at all...

irishbucsfan

It would be interesting to see a group of Cardiff, London Irish, Ulster and Montpellier.


The 3rd and 4th seeds could well qualify ahead of the 1st and 2nd!

Legion2008

One pool will have 2 English teams, Gloucester, as the lowest ranked English side will be the second team in that pool.

GerM

Have to agree with SP. Leicester were one of the best teams in the HEC and lost to the eventual winners in an away quarter final by a single score. Munster were knocked out of the HEC with a game left to play in the pool stages and then played a mediocre at best French team to reach the semi finals of the Amlin. They receive the same number of ranking points that Leicester did. Quins received 2 more points than Leicester and I don't think anyone has any doubt which side performed to a higher level in Europe this season. Quins impressed in one game this season, away to Munster. They were outplayed in the final and had a very handy group (and didn't perform too impressively in it) which gave them a home quarter final to Wasps. This really needs to be adjusted to represent the overall quality of the teams and relative achievements of the sides.

Legion2008

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

If Leinster draw Clermont they will have a relatively easy group since Clermont would guarantee Aironi or Treviso

Careful now .... if Leinster draw Clermont they'll bring Saracens along with them, every group needs an english side in it and as said before Gloucester will be in a group with another english side.

Both Treviso and Aironi are improving fast and are more than capable of upsetting the form book

Big Nelly

Already booked tickets for final next year, blind faith some people may say but I will stick to that!! ratings are always cr*p! every sport has them and all of them are terrible

Podge_irl

Legion2008 wrote: »

Careful now .... if Leinster draw Clermont they'll bring Saracens along with them, every group needs an english side in it and as said before Gloucester will be in a group with another english side.

Both Treviso and Aironi are improving fast and are more than capable of upsetting the form book

Well that would have an irritatingly familiar ring to it. Though I'd at least be fairly confident in predicting neither Treviso nor Aironi will be as good as Racing so at least it wouldn't be as insanely difficult a group as this year.

Gelio

Anyone notice this is thread of the day?
No idea why

Spud83

ajeffares wrote: »

Anyone notice this is thread of the day?
No idea why

Thread of the day is just picked randomly as far as I know. There is no actual merit in it.

Gracelessly Tom

sock puppet wrote: »

Amlin performances rank quite highly for some reason. Load of bollocks imo. The winner of the Amlin should at best get the same points as a Heineken Cup quarter finalist. Fix that plus give more weighting for recent performances and factor in domestic performances and it'd be perfect imo.

There's no way they can (or should) factor in domestic performances. Teams play in different leagues against different opposition so there is no fairness in such a ranking system.

Montpellier will not be up for the H Cup at all. Will give it socks for the first home game but will sacrifice the H Cup after that to try and secure a top 6 (and H Cup qualification) slot in the T14. They want the money for qualifying and consolidate the top 6 spot for a number of years before they can build a squad to compete on both fronts. Same as the majority of French teams. Bar Toulouse (and Clermont recently) it's all about the Top 14.

Leinster will get Northampton, convinced of it!

sock puppet

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

There's no way they can (or should) factor in domestic performances. Teams play in different leagues against different opposition so there is no fairness in such a ranking system.

You're right I suppose. It's just the current system benefits the established teams and hurts newly promoted sides. And not just in their first year. Racing Metro had a solid enough campaign this year but even a second place finish in their pool next year might not move them out of tier 4.

Gelio

Spud83 wrote: »

Thread of the day is just picked randomly as far as I know. There is no actual merit in it.

w00t w00t

roycon

i think clermont will be a real force next season given the signings but also the fact theyve been burnt by leinster twice now. Theyve won a top 14 and had a taste of success in france. now they're probably getting annoyed after losing to leinster in the rds when they should have won and being embarassed in landsowne this year. they will have a huge squad next year. great quality signings in lee byrne, nathan hines,regan king,skrela,benjamin kayser.

GerM

roycon wrote: »

i think clermont will be a real force next season given the signings but also the fact theyve been burnt by leinster twice now. Theyve won a top 14 and had a taste of success in france. now they're probably getting annoyed after losing to leinster in the rds when they should have won and being embarassed in landsowne this year. they will have a huge squad next year. great quality signings in lee byrne, nathan hines,regan king,skrela,benjamin kayser.

Most of those players are way past their best. Clermont will be a force every year but I don't see anything in their signings to strike fear into the European heavyweights. They're losing the likes of Scelzo, Privat, Ledesma, Baby and Lauaki. I don't think they'll be any stronger than they were this year to be honest. The players they're signing are all on a downward curve and some influential players like Bonnaire and Vermeulen are starting to get on.

thomond2006

Shame Bayonne aren't in the HEC this year, they are in the money now it seems and are looking to become a big force. Some good signings there.

Bayonne
IN: Victor Manukula (Aurillac), Neemia Tialata (Hurricanes), Mark Chisholm (Brumbies), Sione Lauaki (Clermont), Joe Rokocoko (Blues), Marvin O'Connor (Grenoble), Cédric Heymans (Toulouse)

OUT: Arnaud Héguy (Biarritz), Ross Filipo (Wasps), Rémy Martin (Montpellier), Sébastien Fauqué (La Rochelle), Jean-Baptiste Peyras (Montpellier), Craig Gower

Quint2010

what time is the draw does anyone know?

Gracelessly Tom

Quint2010 wrote: »

what time is the draw does anyone know?

13:00 CET as far as I know.

theboss80

12.00 streamed live on www.ercrugby.com iirc

jolley123

Is it working for you guys? I'm having trouble getting the page to load.

totallegend

jolley123 wrote: »

Is it working for you guys? I'm having trouble getting the page to load.

Me too, but I figured it was my work computer being set to prevent people from slacking off watching videos...

Tomtom364

live streaming fail

erc site wrote:

Sorry, it seems there is an error on this page. The webmaster has been notified of this problem. Thank you

jolley123

Damn, now I'm gonna have to see the pools all at once instead of slowly..

durkadurka

Get back to work the lot of yez!

Risteard

Working for me, Though at the moment it's only a load of coloured bars with what I think is the Kings of Leon playing over it. Starts at 12.

thomond2006

Not working for me.

jolley123

Here we go

the_doctor199

Not working here either, seems to be a live blog over here: Link

Edit: Scrap that, he's not actually there, just updating the content.

thomond2006

Please update one by one and I'll go mad with the refresh button!

dastardly00

the_doctor199 wrote: »

Not working here either, seems to be a live blog over here: Link

they can't access the stream either! D'oh!

copacetic

SSN are saying the live draw is coming up. ERC site isnt responding for me at all.

Legion2008

let the conspiracy theories start now if Biarritz again get an easy group ....

Risteard

Heineken Cup montage atm. With a ****ty song I might add.

Big Nelly

Is it on SSN???

Risteard

On the stream.

thomond2006

aaaah I can't take this.....

Anyone who has the working stream better must post here the info as it happens or face lifetime bans

copacetic

Big Nelly wrote: »

Is it on SSN???

No, they haven't got to it yet, dunno if it will be live. They could just be waiting for something to actually happen.

the_doctor199

Seems they're going to update it on their FB page: http://www.facebook.com/HeinekenCup?sk=wall

Big Nelly

Website is a disaster, completely crashed!! tried on myp2p but nothing up there, on SSN here on TV but nothing mentioned yet! what a joke!!:rolleyes:

Risteard

Don't worry lads, I'll type as fast as I can.