Stealth Kills

J.D.R

Right, just thinking out loud as a result of reading about a game of "Find the lone sniper", with the issue of not shouting out "Hit" with stealthy knife kills, would this not be a good thing to cross over with sniper kills?

I am not a sniper, and would make a really crap one due to lack of patience, but, I know, if I was lying in a bush in an awkward position for 10 minutes, I would be pretty pissed if I was found out after 1 kill because someone had shouted out Hit, effectively giving away my rough position to everyone.

While I know it would not be viable every week in every site, has there ever been talk of a system where, if hit with one BB with no clue of where it came from, that you would take your hit in the same fashion as a knife kill, ie raise your hand & AEG and walk off without shouting hit?

EDIT - And I already know about how hard it is to get people to take hits from snipers, don't worry;)

Firekitten

not paticularly viable unless its enemy vs one sniper... then its still hard to police.

Even as a sniper, you can still be hidden dispite people calling hit... they have to know where you are, and if you're good, you relocate, mitigating the chances of discovery. Its the hunters job to avoid the prey, not the prey to help the hunter.

J.D.R

Firekitten wrote: »

Its the hunters job to avoid the prey, not the prey to help the hunter.

Thanks FK, this one sentence just kinda answered my whole thought process

Firekitten

Sorry, I didn't mean to bash your idea... Its good! I like it! it would be excelent, but its just too hard to really apply... I guess. Its only my personal opinion really. Others may disagree.

cobra 08

Have too agree with FK on this one. Although it would be nice when sniping it's not really viable. Also what if someone is using an M4 and shoots you with one BB how do you know if it's a sniper or not?? And TBH in the real world unless you have a silencer on your riffle you general position would be given away from the sound of your shot. That's why it's best to pick your shots and only fire when it's worth it and you'll be able to relocate.

J.D.R

Haha, it's ok, i suppose it all comes back to the fact that snipers are kinda playing a different game entirely with, as cobra says, relocating and picking shots and everything

Inari

You really only have a maximum of 3 shots or so before you should move anyway.

On the otherhand, unless I clearly see someone's hand/gun above their head, or hear them call hit, I'll shoot again (assuming they're not hit) - so the idea of stealth kills not calling hit is a little awkward.

In places like the Office Block, with knife kills, calling hit means you WILL be shot. But outdoors it is nowhere near as big a deal. I do see your point though...I suppose it stems from the whole dead men don't talk, but you'd need kill-rags in my mind for it to work properly i.e. no one calls hit at all, you just raise your kill rag

Silent Death

As FK and Inari said, good idea in principle, it is annoying when it happens but a good sniper relocates often.
The Kill Rag is the best idea for that to work, if you agree before a game that a single shot on your person would involve not shouting hit then agree that before a game, otherwise it gets messy.
I do sniping for our team, haven't had a chance recently but back now that the L96 is up and running. We build those rules into game scenarios we play with another local team for SWAT style games where stealth is the main aspect.

TerrenceAnth

Im not sure like iv took the sniper role and all my kills where a good distance away so shouting hit doesnt bother me.

The way i work the hit system normaly is that if im holding a base or something and there are 3 or 4 guys shooting at me and i get hit i should hit so they know to stop shooting me. But if im out in the feild and get shot by one guy i just raise my hand to show a hit and not bother with shouting it. But sometimes the just putting your hand up doesnt work and you keep getting shot lol and it turns into

"hit hit HIT ****ING HIT HIT ARE YOU DEAF ****ING HIT OMG MARSHAL!"
The amount of times thats happend :P

Firekitten

Its why you shout hit from the word go... You're always meant to shout hit... unless specified otherwise.

We're grown adults playing toy soldiers, don't be afraid to admit to getting shot :P

if someone doesn't call it, I'll often fire again to make sure, not everyone can see a raised hand.

TerrenceAnth

This is true aswell its only when its point blank and we both see the bbs bounce of me i dont bother saying it. At a distance ill call it out.
I invested in a death rag its an amazing idea iv never been hit walking back to spawn with it ^_^

Stone.cold

For the past 3 yrs the rule for sniper games here is when your hit by a sniper you dont call hit you just raise your hand in the air and walk away and once u respawn u forget where the sniper was, its works 90% of the time sometimes players call hit out of force of habit, likewise with lone players patrolling if you are hit by a sniper you just walk away, we have the same rule for knife kills, it works well if all players are of the same mind set.

Firekitten

problem one... how do you know one bb is a sniper?

problem two... how do you 'forget' honestly, where the sniper is?



I still maintain, as a sniper myself, its the shooters job to not get caught, and to move position when compromised, ie, when they hit someone.

Anyway, this all sorta presumes the sniper is using a 'silencer' when infact, most aint... you'll hear the shot unless they do, and if they dont, calling hit is only as 'compromising' as the guy falling dead at thier mates feet... they're gonna know anyway.

Airsoft Reloded

Stone.cold wrote: »

For the past 3 yrs the rule for sniper games here is when your hit by a sniper you dont call hit you just raise your hand in the air and walk away and once u respawn u forget where the sniper was, its works 90% of the time sometimes players call hit out of force of habit, likewise with lone players patrolling if you are hit by a sniper you just walk away, we have the same rule for knife kills, it works well if all players are of the same mind set.

We do the same thing with knife kills but I may try it with the single fire too, thats good thinking Trev

Stone.cold

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

We do the same thing with knife kills but I may try it with the single fire too, thats good thinking Trev

it works well Brian, of course the rule is if the sniper misses hits the object beside you etc then raise the alarm by all means.

Airsoft Reloded

Stone.cold wrote: »

it works well Brian, of course the rule is if the sniper misses hits the object beside you etc then raise the alarm by all means.

Cool so a missed shot is a proper fu** up, I like it. It shall be implemented!

Harveey

Good idea in theory but I've seen people first hand getting shot at distance's from an AEG thats nearly as quite as a sniper so it would be hard to judge if it was a sniper that shot you or just an AEG. My view on it anyways from what I've seen out on the field.

Stone.cold

Harveey wrote: »

Good idea in theory but I've seen people first hand getting shot at distance's from an AEG thats nearly as quite as a sniper so it would be hard to judge if it was a sniper that shot you or just an AEG. My view on it anyways from what I've seen out on the field.

Single fire is single fire, granted we have smaller numbers to deal with but if everyone is singing of the same hymn sheet then it works, ok so if you crawl up on to guys looking in your direction and you fire and hit 1, and the other sees you tuff your fair game but if you sneak up on 2 guys with their backs to you and you hit 1 he walks away and the other think "sh1t"

or on a sniper hunt you have 5 team mates hunting a sniper your all comm'd up but 1 by 1 your team mates stop responding to the radio pretty soon your the only one talking? touching cloth time me thinks

Firekitten

End of the day, this is all making it 'easier' to be a sniper, and I don't think thats the objective or a good thing at the end of the day.
The sniper needs to be able to pick thier location, wait till the target isnt looking, so they don't compromise the shooter if they miss, and so thier buddies dont see. Its also thier job to have a planned way out, and new location... Removing all that makes it just concealed target practice. Different game.

While the concept is good, its not practical, or policeable... making all single shots 'silent kills' is taking it a bit too far, hell, I use semi auto nearly all the time, except when things get desperate... All my kills would be silent ones, which wouldnt be too realistic would it? I think there's a point where overcomplication becomes a real issue.

Arkslippy

I've wondered about the whole sniper rifle thing. I've test fired a few and they are really quiet. Would you not need to be within 20ft of a sniper to hear it fire.

Firekitten

It depends on the rifle. A lot can make a fairly distinctive high frequency 'crack' that's all muzzle report, rather than aeg gearbox sound, you can get cylinder slap in the bolties too..

A properly air sealed and upgraded bolty can make a racket, but a silencer can do a lot too... it all depends on whats inside, and whos built it :P

Ask any of the chedaki lot from CC3, my L115a3 was silent beyond 10ft :P KittyKustom Silencer and silencing parts inside :P

StevieGriff

Firekitten wrote: »

It depends on the rifle. A lot can make a fairly distinctive high frequency 'crack' that's all muzzle report, rather than aeg gearbox sound, you can get cylinder slap in the bolties too..

A properly air sealed and upgraded bolty can make a racket, but a silencer can do a lot too... it all depends on whats inside, and whos built it :P

Ask any of the chedaki lot from CC3, my L115a3 was silent beyond 10ft :P KittyKustom Silencer and silencing parts inside :P

It's true, even despite the corroded hop up unit!

Firekitten

It wasnt 'corroded' it failed from over use it seems... PDI parts dont last 3 years it seems...

Who were those lovely lads that offered to hold thier precious full beer cans for me? :P

I still remember the looks on thier faces

Stone.cold

Arkslippy wrote: »

I've wondered about the whole sniper rifle thing. I've test fired a few and they are really quiet. Would you not need to be within 20ft of a sniper to hear it fire.

the whole idea of a sniper is a silent kill, so if the lone "hit" player shouts out hit that defeats the purpose all his team mates realise he has been hit and immediately take a defensive position, when the player that has been hit simply puts his hand up and walks away he has not alerted anyone to the fact that a sniper is present.

Arkslippy

Yes, but I'd imagine if I'd gone out as a sniper and fired and taken a Target out and his team went defensive, would you be better not to shoot again if the situation was likely to get you found out

Stone.cold

Arkslippy wrote: »

Yes, but I'd imagine if I'd gone out as a sniper and fired and taken a Target out and his team went defensive, would you be better not to shoot again if the situation was likely to get you found out

yeah i agree but if u went out as a sniper fire target hit he walks away and the rest of his team r none the wiser is that not better you move position and continue to take out the enemy?

MonkeyGuy

His team are going to see him walking away anyways? Plus him shouting hit just means he got shot from somewhere. It could be ANYWHERE.

Stone.cold

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

His team are going to see him walking away anyways? Plus him shouting hit just means he got shot from somewhere. It could be ANYWHERE.

you missed the "lone" part of my post, if their on a sniper hunt they will be spread out out not always in view of their team mates, if player 1 shouts out hit then his team will focus on his last known location, if he just puts up his hand and walks away and then he is called on the radio with no response...... you see were im going with this?

MonkeyGuy

I've never experienced a game like that where this would make a difference. Either everyone would see the person put their hand up or else they'd come running and by the time they got there the dead guy would've walked away.

This is a very game-specific rule really, I can see how it would work under those EXACT curcumstances, but in a regular game I don't see it helping.

Stone.cold

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

I've never experienced a game like that where this would make a difference. Either everyone would see the person put their hand up or else they'd come running and by the time they got there the dead guy would've walked away.

This is a very game-specific rule really, I can see how it would work under those EXACT curcumstances, but in a regular game I don't see it helping.

No like i said earlier in the thread we deal with smaller numbers all working off the same rules

Inari

Stone.cold wrote: »

No like i said earlier in the thread we deal with smaller numbers all working off the same rules

Just to emphasise what Trev is talking about; he is a site operator for MAC (midlands airsoft club), which does not have need for any marshalling, and is a mid/low cap mag only game site. They have smaller numbers, and a much greater degree of honestly than the majority of sites, in part due to the club nature, and partly due to the fact that if they're not honest they will NEVER hear the end of it...ever.

Having played the sniper hunt at MAC, I can tell you that it DOES help not calling 'HIT' for one major reason - the sniper game is a rolling assault. You hunt them out, and push them back. You cannot move on until area is clear. If there's more than one sniper, this gives them an advantage. If you shout hit, and others are engaging another sniper, you can locate both much easier. Whereas if you are hit, on your own, then you should make it obvious you're hit (Gun/hand raised over head) and make your way to re-spawn.

Why bother? Dead men don't talk. Shouting hit, in a small game, when isolated, just serves to highlight where the sniper is, and whereas you can view this as a challenge for a sniper, it is in my eyes cheating on part of the hunters, and is literally a form of dead men communicating with the live. Calling hit in other circumstances is to clearly show everyone you are out of the playing, and no longer a target

MonkeyGuy

So was I not right about it being a specific thing? I agree, it would be useful in games such as that, but in a regular skirmish I think it's asking for too much on the behalf of non-snipers.

Inari

MonkeyGuy wrote: »

So was I not right about it being a specific thing? I agree, it would be useful in games such as that, but in a regular skirmish I think it's asking for too much on the behalf of non-snipers.

Yes I agree - regular skirmish, too much to ask. It would, in my opinion, only cause arguments "You called hit" "And?" "You're not supposed to!!" "But the safety brief said call hit" "But this is..." "Blarghhhh" etc.

MonkeyGuy

Exactly, it's hard enough to get guys to call hit, then you give out to them because they do call hit? Unfortunately that's too much to ask of many skirmishers! :P

Airsoft Reloded

I disagree, I think that if Trev has found an excellent way to deal with an issue in the game (and I think he has) it should be tried and tested.

I love the idea of being able to get through a building (not to mention a forest) without anyone giving away my position, there are always situations where you have no choice but to shoot and if there is a stealth option most good players would take it and the noobs would follow suit. All of our lads took to the no hit call for knives so why not a single shot?

It is completely possible to install such a rule.

Firekitten

Its entierly possible to install a rule that says all players hit by me, must bow down and pay homage to thier goddess.... Doesn't mean we should, or can.

If you want to use stealth, use it. if you want to use the element of stealth, to move from point a, to point b, you really be shooting at them...
If you can't manage it without, its not stealth.

This is a whole element of making things easier for the attacker essentially...
Big issue, not everyone using semi auto, is a sniper, or stealthy. I use semi all the time, infact, more than automatic, are you saying everyone should take that silently?

A better aplication, would be, if you don't HEAR, the shot, call it silently... Ie, hands up, walk off. That encourages the use of nbb silenced pistols, and silenced sniper rifles to maintail that element of stealth. its also clearly identifiable, and understandable even in the skirmish field.


To be honest, any idea of these 'rules' should be for milsim games, not sunday skirmishes... its taking things a little far.

I'd love it if it worked, but sadly, this aint real bullets, and we don't have real silencers.

Airsoft Reloded

Firekitten wrote: »

Its entierly possible to install a rule that says all players hit by me, must bow down and pay homage to thier goddess.... Doesn't mean we should, or can.

If you want to use stealth, use it. if you want to use the element of stealth, to move from point a, to point b, you really be shooting at them...
If you can't manage it without, its not stealth.

This is a whole element of making things easier for the attacker essentially...
Big issue, not everyone using semi auto, is a sniper, or stealthy. I use semi all the time, infact, more than automatic, are you saying everyone should take that silently?

A better aplication, would be, if you don't HEAR, the shot, call it silently... Ie, hands up, walk off. That encourages the use of nbb silenced pistols, and silenced sniper rifles to maintail that element of stealth. its also clearly identifiable, and understandable even in the skirmish field.


To be honest, any idea of these 'rules' should be for milsim games, not sunday skirmishes... its taking things a little far.

I'd love it if it worked, but sadly, this aint real bullets, and we don't have real silencers.

I use semi all the time too but the rule just appeals to me.

The majority of complaints we've ever gotten was from people who just found it to hard to attack on some of our sites, "the defenders have to good a position" or "are hiding behind a door and I can't get them", all that kind of ****.

When designing a site you allow for crap players just to save yourself a headache so thats no issue.

I hear what your saying but the problem with only doing it when you hear nothing is that if you don't hear it or see someone you would probably assume it bounced off something else but yeah I see your point I guess.

Firekitten

Could it not be billed as the ultimate test of honesty, in the honour based sport?

Are you honest enough to take a kill you can't hear, or see, silently? make airsoft honourable, by action, not rule

I understand your standpoint on site and game design, and it is a huge factor, but the stealth aspect is never going to help 'crap' players, or help them assault better.
At the end of the day, tactics application, and experience helps them attack. Any position can be assaulted. It just depends how... For game purposes, naturally, positions can be selected to allow the attackers to do just that, attack. The rest is up to them. If they can't do it, swap some players around, even the skill level.

IrishRatticus72

Firekitten wrote: »

Could it not be billed as the ultimate test of honesty, in the honour based sport?

Are you honest enough to take a kill you can't hear, or see, silently? make airsoft honourable, by action, not rule

I understand your standpoint on site and game design, and it is a huge factor, but the stealth aspect is never going to help 'crap' players, or help them assault better.
At the end of the day, tactics application, and experience helps them attack. Any position can be assaulted. It just depends how... For game purposes, naturally, positions can be selected to allow the attackers to do just that, attack. The rest is up to them. If they can't do it, swap some players around, even the skill level.

In fairness, if I receive a particularly good hit from a player that was "hanging it out" looking for a sweet kill, I won`t shout hit, I`ll just give him a thumbs up, and respawn, quietly.
If it`s a close up kill, I`ll touch fists, and whisper, "ye c***".....
Then I`ll come back and rain down hell upon his sorry ass. (usually).

Airsoft Reloded

IrishRatticus72 wrote: »

In fairness, if I receive a particularly good hit from a player that was "hanging it out" looking for a sweet kill, I won`t shout hit, I`ll just give him a thumbs up, and respawn, quietly.
If it`s a close up kill, I`ll touch fists, and whisper, "ye c***".....
Then I`ll come back and rain down hell upon his sorry ass. (usually).

That sounds about right

Stone.cold

Airsoft Reloded wrote: »

I love the idea of being able to get through a building (not to mention a forest) without anyone giving away my position, there are always situations where you have no choice but to shoot and if there is a stealth option most good players would take it and the noobs would follow suit. All of our lads took to the no hit call for knives so why not a single shot?
.

thats the whole point, whats the point in some one sneaking around gettin into position taking out there target, if the target shouts hit and alerts everyone else

obviously if stick the ole M4 on single and then bound through the trees like a rhino and im heard tuff tittie i gave away my position but if i sneak in and nobody hears my approach then why should someelse give away my position and as i said the hit player develops memory loss when he returns and unfair advantage if he walks back and says "oh btw the shooter is there"

RABBIT.

IrishRatticus72 wrote: »

In fairness, if I receive a particularly good hit from a player that was "hanging it out" looking for a sweet kill, I won`t shout hit, I`ll just give him a thumbs up, and respawn, quietly.
If it`s a close up kill, I`ll touch fists, and whisper, "ye c***".....
Then I`ll come back and rain down hell upon his sorry ass. (usually).

i'm of the same thinking on this, though it is hard not to shout "HIT", after all thats what your told to do from the get go.

IrishRatticus72

RABBIT. wrote: »

i'm of the same thinking on this, though it is hard not to shout "HIT", after all thats what your told to do from the get go.

If I took a hit from a player I don`t know too well, I`ll shout hit, so he doesn`t think I`m an ass****, and not calling my hits, but if it`s another regular, he`ll know my method. The good thing is I choose my visits carefully, so that mostly, I`m playing with guys I`ve known for quite some time. Hell, there`s even been occasions when I`ve hugged the sonofabitch who shot me point blank in the crotch, to me, it`s all about the game, not just about the win.
Than again, I`m a lover, not a fighter..........:p

RABBIT.

IrishRatticus72 wrote: »

If I took a hit from a player I don`t know too well, I`ll shout hit, so he doesn`t think I`m an ass****, and not calling my hits, but if it`s another regular, he`ll know my method. The good thing is I choose my visits carefully, so that mostly, I`m playing with guys I`ve known for quite some time. Hell, there`s even been occasions when I`ve hugged the sonofabitch who shot me point blank in the crotch, to me, it`s all about the game, not just about the win.
Than again, I`m a lover, not a fighter..........:p

:D

mafo

you want a silent killer?, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK45xnlwC4g&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Inari

mafo wrote: »

you want a silent killer?, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK45xnlwC4g&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Jesus that setup is pure commitment; unless my eyes deceive me, a second scope for his headcam?? Along with gun-cam...all I can say is FAIR PLAY!!

MonkeyGuy

That must be a big ass site.

jeawan

Inari wrote: »

Jesus that setup is pure commitment; unless my eyes deceive me, a second scope for his headcam?? Along with gun-cam...all I can say is FAIR PLAY!!

I have watched that before he is very good at what he does in fairness to him

Firekitten

Staged video :P He shot the same guy 5 times, and its nearly impossible to jam a tm mk23 :P perfectly timed fix to shoot that same guy again mind
Not bad skills, but a little obvious in his movement at times. The cameras seem stupidly exessive mind.

MonkeyGuy

He obviously doesn't care much about being sneaky, but rather showing off how good he looks while being somewhat sneaky... How sexy

Firekitten

its the 'look ir snipar! ir best! aproach lol.