The men who would not stop marching

junder

An insight into the band culture within the unionist community of northern Ireland

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b011qdp0

If the link does not work look for 'Wonderland: the men that would not stop marching' bbc 2 on the BBC Iplayer

I know that the charter of this site says that I should make some comment, seeing as I am a member of a flute band obviously I would be bias. Hopefully anybody who watchs this programme might gain some understanding of what is a very important part of my culture

RMD

I watched it earlier on, great documentary in fairness. It shows how important it is to the culture, when you can get thousands of kids to march and play instruments purely out of pride for their heritage, would be very hard to do that in most countries anywhere else. It was interesting from a historical point of view to, some good info in it throughout. Nice to see the indside of the H blocks, never seen that before.

Edit: Was disgusted though by them having no problem commemorating a "fallen comrade", a man who went out and shot a catholic on purely sectarian grounds.

seiphil

It shows them to be the bigots that they are to be honest.

Bloody Nipples

BBC iPlayer can't be used in the republic.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Looking forward to this. I'd suggest to republicans watching this to overlook any reverence of loyalist paramilitaries at least long enough to recognise how important band culture is to working class loyalist communities independent of the political implications


not to distract from the thread but also worth a look in this vein is comedian Des Bishop's workshop episode in Mount Vernon in Belfast. You see the loyalist culture and views of a few people and he goes to a band practice at one point in it.

junder

If nothing else the programme shows the damage an event like the shankill
Bomb can have a community

junder

seiphil wrote: »

It shows them to be the bigots that they are to be honest.

Do you regard republican flute bands that name themselves after IRA men as bigots?

Jelle1880

Completely forgot about it (Saw an article in the paper last weekend), thanks for the reminder.

RMD

junder wrote: »

If nothing else the programme shows the damage an event like the shankill
Bomb can have a community

Yes, the Shankill bomb and resulting Greysteel massacre destroyed 2 communities in a short space of time. With these communities being so close knit, everyone knew a person who was killed and it had such an effect as shown in the documentary.

Sunnyisland

Watched it ok, And it is nice to see the other traditions of Ulster,also interesting to see the Fap graffiti being wrote on walls,that is/has happened in nationalists areas to.Even though there are still major hurts & divisions with the ;peace wall; sticking out,There could be hope for the young people there yet.Its up to the older generation to set a precedent.

GaylaBells02

il see

KeithAFC

A mix of Ulster nationalists and Ulster Loyalists. Everyone gives money on the Shankill to keep the bands going.

sensibleken

The music sucks. Havent they ever heard of Stiff little fingers?

GaylaBells02

im on with your idea of music

junder

sensibleken wrote: »

The music sucks. Havent they ever heard of Stiff little fingers?

Considering stiff little fingers come from ballysillian and went to boys model school which many kids from the shankill go (in fact I am sure it was the schoo shown on the documentry) I sure they have. Did you know James Galway learnt to play the flute in a loyalist flute band or that the actor jimmy nisbit was also in a flute band?

Sunnyisland

I see the lord mayor of belfast was there on the shankill yesrterday, He is a Sinn fein coucillor.Hopefully only good can come out of interaction between both communities.And maybe when they get over the war/troubles/terrisiom they can tackle the everyday problems facing most cities,espeicially the drug culture which all ready has a hold over much of Belfast.

KeithAFC

realies wrote: »

I see the lord mayor of belfast was there on the shankill yesrterday, He is a Sinn fein coucillor.Hopefully only good can come out of interaction between both communities.And maybe when they get over the war/troubles/terrisiom they can tackle the everyday problems facing most cities,espeicially the drug culture which all ready has a hold over much of Belfast.

I don't see Sinn Fein doing much for the Shankill Road. Sinn Fein don't care for the Shankill or the Protestant people who live on the Shankill.

problemchimp

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see Sinn Fein doing much for the Shankill Road. Sinn Fein don't care for the Shankill or the Protestant people who live on the Shankill.

Your probably right there Keith but when Unionist leader Tom Elliott refers to Sinn Fein supporters as "scum" it shows the hatred for nationalists is still very evident. Since the G.F.A. I thought that language was history but obviously the Ulster Unionists don't think so. Such a pity because I believe Trimble was an unsung hero for destroying his political career for the sake of peace, just like John Hume.

JustinDee

junder wrote: »

Did you know James Galway learnt to play the flute in a loyalist flute band or that the actor jimmy nisbit was also in a flute band?

That would explain Nesbitt's drinking problem then.

problemchimp

JustinDee wrote: »

That would explain Nesbitt's drinking problem then.

Trying to drink with a flute in his mouth?

KeithAFC

junder wrote: »

Considering stiff little fingers come from ballysillian and went to boys model school which many kids from the shankill go (in fact I am sure it was the schoo shown on the documentry) I sure they have. Did you know James Galway learnt to play the flute in a loyalist flute band or that the actor jimmy nisbit was also in a flute band?

James is one of the greatest. A lot of talent on the band scene.

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see Sinn Fein doing much for the Shankill Road. Sinn Fein don't care for the Shankill or the Protestant people who live on the Shankill.

At least he is making an effort and by reports in the Irish times did ok. Now if only some other people could do the same.

irishh_bob

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see Sinn Fein doing much for the Shankill Road. Sinn Fein don't care for the Shankill or the Protestant people who live on the Shankill.

not from northern ireland and dont vote sinn fein in the south but from what ive read ( if that can be believed ) , sinn fein do try and help those in loyalist areas of west belfast , in fact , was thier not some reports of loyalists voting for sinn fein in recent elections

Sunnyisland

Dont want to derail the thread but



VOTERS in staunch loyalist areas such as the Shankill Road are switching to Sinn Féin because republicans are seen to be active for working-class communities, unionist and nationalist, senior UDA members have told the unionist daily, the News Letter.

UDA leader Jackie McDonald explained that the switch to Sinn Féin is happening because unionist politicians have abandoned their working-class support.

Former UDA prisoner Colin Halliday said:

It wasn’t big numbers but there were votes from loyalist areas went into the box for Sinn Féin.

What we’re taking from that is that voters believe, ‘These people are doing the work for us. We’re being neglected by our own politicians.’

He said the DUP and UUP are ignoring the people of unionist working-class areas:

The days of putting a rosette on a donkey and parading it through unionist areas are over.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Great little kid.

I had to laugh when the reporter asked about the KAT(kill all taigs) grafiti. He immediately started talking about how the other side write KAH (kill all huns)
Didn't expect whataboutery would start at such an early age!

irishh_bob

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Great little kid.

I had to laugh when the reporter asked about the KAT(kill all taigs) grafiti. He immediately started talking about how the other side write KAH (kill all huns)
Didn't expect whataboutery would start at such an early age!

was that the fat boy who was so enthusiastic about getting a role in the band , nice kid , didnt see him say that

RMD

KeithAFC wrote: »

I don't see Sinn Fein doing much for the Shankill Road. Sinn Fein don't care for the Shankill or the Protestant people who live on the Shankill.

As Realies as already pointed out, I've heard unionists mention before if you want something done, you go to your Sinn Fein representative. They don't repersent your political beliefs, but apparently they're the party looking after the working class areas.

Hopefully this is true, it shows old views are dieing away and progressive attitudes are occurring. One of the best clips I thought in the documentary, was the part showing tags that kids were putting up around their estates, "Fúck all paramilitaries". Many of them didn't even know what a paramilitary was, but if they adopt the attitude early on, hopefully it will stay with them for life.

irishh_bob wrote: »

was that the fat boy who was so enthusiastic about getting a role in the band , nice kid , didnt see him say that

Ye, when asked about the KAT tags he couldn't really understand them, but his logic for it was the Catholics tag KAH.

Bottle_of_Smoke

irishh_bob wrote: »

was that the fat boy who was so enthusiastic about getting a role in the band , nice kid , didnt see him say that

The red haired kid the documentary was about. Smart beyond his years I thought. He also remarked taigs were catholics but was a bad name. Seemed more mature than his dad in a lot of ways. Which in some ways makes sense because his dad probably never got a chance at a real childhood.

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

The red haired kid the documentary was about. Smart beyond his years I thought. He also remarked taigs were catholics but was a bad name. Seemed more mature than his dad in a lot of ways. Which in some ways makes sense because his dad probably never got a chance at a real childhood.

Wonder who he got it from.. his da or ma..:pac:

Sunnyisland

KeithAFC wrote: »

Wonder who he got it from.. his da or ma..:pac:

His community

junder

Shame it didn't show bands like the uvf regimental (named after the orginal uvf by the way) and the miller memorial flute band, both bands at the top end if the game and are great musicians. Miller memorial like my own band is over 100 years old. Some members of my band are in thier sixties and have been members since they were kids.

KeithAFC

junder wrote: »

Shame it didn't show bands like the uvf regimental (named after the orginal uvf by the way) and the miller memorial flute band, both bands at the top end if the game and are great musicians. Miller memorial like my own band is over 100 years old. Some members of my band are in thier sixties and have been members since they were kids.

The band around my way is over 125 years or more. A member in his 80s. Had a stroke not long ago and instead of relaxing, he is back at it in the orange hall. Loyal and dedicated.

junder

Did anybody pay attention to how much it actully costs to put a band on the road, £20000+. Drums costing £500 each, flutes at £100+ (although we have flutes in my band costing £400 each) uniforms costing £500. No small feat putting a band on the road.

Exile 1798

junder wrote: »

Considering stiff little fingers come from ballysillian and went to boys model school which many kids from the shankill go (in fact I am sure it was the schoo shown on the documentry) I sure they have. Did you know James Galway learnt to play the flute in a loyalist flute band or that the actor jimmy nisbit was also in a flute band?

Yes, his father was a member of the Ballymena Young Conquers, average age 65. James Nesbitt played the flute with them as a boy. He has said his dad stopped marching after Drumcree as he was ashamed of the actions of the Orangemen and the thuggery of their supporters. Nesbitt freely calls himself Irish.

Liam Neeson also comes from Ballymena. The local DUP objected to him being granted "The Freedom of the Town" because of comments he had made about feeling like a second class citizen growing up there. I wonder how many of those DUP objectors were also members of the Ballymena Young Conquers, and if they had ever once given consideration to the thoughts and feelings of the people who’s ancestors conquest and ethnic cleansing they celebrate every year? Perhaps not.

Unionism needs more Nesbitts and less Paisleys.

irishh_bob

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Yes, his father was a member of the Ballymena Young Conquers, average age 65. James Nesbitt played the flute with them as a boy. He has said his dad stopped marching after Drumcree as he was ashamed of the actions of the Orangemen and the thuggery of their supporters. Nesbitt freely calls himself Irish.

Liam Neeson also comes from Ballymena. The local DUP objected to him being granted "The Freedom of the Town" because of comments he had made about feeling like a second class citizen growing up there. I wonder how many of those DUP objectors were also members of the Ballymena Young Conquers, and if they had ever once given consideration to the thoughts and feelings of the people who’s ancestors conquest and ethnic cleansing they celebrate every year? Perhaps not.

Unionism needs more Nesbitts and less Paisleys.

ian paisley has refered to himself as an irish man on a few occasions , of course , he sees himself as being irish in a different sense than the majority of people in this island , irish within the british tradition , personally speaking , i think this is a bit of a con , ive no problem with someone identifying themselves as british but calling yourself irish and british is like calling yourself british and french

junder

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Yes, his father was a member of the Ballymena Young Conquers, average age 65. James Nesbitt played the flute with them as a boy. He has said his dad stopped marching after Drumcree as he was ashamed of the actions of the Orangemen and the thuggery of their supporters. Nesbitt freely calls himself Irish.

Liam Neeson also comes from Ballymena. The local DUP objected to him being granted "The Freedom of the Town" because of comments he had made about feeling like a second class citizen growing up there. I wonder how many of those DUP objectors were also members of the Ballymena Young Conquers, and if they had ever once given consideration to the thoughts and feelings of the people who’s ancestors conquest and ethnic cleansing they celebrate every year? Perhaps not.

Unionism needs more Nesbitts and less Paisleys.

Wonder how many sinn fein politicians have been convicted of murder, well we know of atleast two considering recent news, wonder how many of them were in republican bands, who knows. Ironically republican flute bands have brought 2nd hand loyalist band uniforms such is the way things work in northern Ireland. Of course nesbitt would claim such things about his father since he would not like to tarnish his new found Irish identy

belacqua_

irishh_bob wrote: »

calling yourself irish and british is like calling yourself british and french

Why?

This was one of the most depressing documentaries I've seen in some time, Northern Ireland has some way to go before it will ever be 'normal'. I felt great sympathy for the little red haired boy and it speaks volumes of that subculture that he was the only interviewee who had any sense.

It was interesting to hear working class Protestants speaking in Sinn Féinese and refer to the Troubles as a 'War' and a 'Conflict', something official Unionism tends to avoid. There was some hope there in the ex-prisoner's view that the country was moving on and people didn't want to return to the nightmare of the recent past, but on the whole sectarianism seemed as entrenched as ever and these loyalist bands appeared to be fomenting bigotry, and openly so.

I was quite concerned by the attitude of the leader of the young Westies who said (with a sinister smirk) that a Catholic could join his band 'if he became a pradastan', when asked if the euphemistic 'peacewall' will ever come down he replied never, 'they keep building it higher'. That seemed to be the pervasive attitude of the loyalist bands, threatening and sectarian to the core, of the same mindset as those in the Orange Order who wish to discipline their members that attended the funeral mass of Ronan Kerr. They're cut from the same cloth as the dissidents, revelling in their hatred and ignorance.

I don't care much for the music, the flautists seem to be consistently out of key (with each other?), though the drummers are usually quite good and the little boy was prodigious. Perhaps he will go on, like former bandmen James Galway and Jimmy Nesbitt, to bigger and better things and leave the sectarianism behind. I enjoyed the irony of self-proclaimed super loyalists ('more British than the people who live in Britain', as the guy who led the young boys' band said, then went on to describe the streets of Belfast as Britain) playing a tune like "Men of Harlech" -- it's not about the Fuzzywuzzies, chaps.

belacqua_

junder wrote: »

Did anybody pay attention to how much it actully costs to put a band on the road, £20000+. Drums costing £500 each, flutes at £100+ (although we have flutes in my band costing £400 each) uniforms costing £500. No small feat putting a band on the road.

In relation to the loyalist bands commemorating sectarian murder gangs, the expression 'polishing a turd' came to mind.

blahfckingblah

junder wrote: »

Wonder how many sinn fein politicians have been convicted of murder, well we know of atleast two considering recent news, wonder how many of them were in republican bands, who knows. Ironically republican flute bands have brought 2nd hand loyalist band uniforms such is the way things work in northern Ireland. Of course nesbitt would claim such things about his father since he would not like to tarnish his new found Irish identy

liam neeson isnt a sinn fein politician though.

Exile 1798

junder wrote: »

Wonder how many sinn fein politicians have been convicted of murder, well we know of atleast two considering recent news, wonder how many of them were in republican bands, who knows. Ironically republican flute bands have brought 2nd hand loyalist band uniforms such is the way things work in northern Ireland. Of course nesbitt would claim such things about his father since he would not like to tarnish his new found Irish identy

It’s interesting, you brought up Nesbitt as an example of an high profile and well liked person from an Orange background. Yet when it's pointed out that Nesbitt and his family no longer march and have taken an anti-sectarian position, you suddenly switched to using contemptful language about him.

It's sad that one single fact about him, which most people would regard as an unmitigated positive, actually serves to lessen him in your eyes.

irishh_bob

belacqua_ wrote: »

Why?

This was one of the most depressing documentaries I've seen in some time, Northern Ireland has some way to go before it will ever be 'normal'. I felt great sympathy for the little red haired boy and it speaks volumes of that subculture that he was the only interviewee who had any sense.

It was interesting to hear working class Protestants speaking in Sinn Féinese and refer to the Troubles as a 'War' and a 'Conflict', something official Unionism tends to avoid. There was some hope there in the ex-prisoner's view that the country was moving on and people didn't want to return to the nightmare of the recent past, but on the whole sectarianism seemed as entrenched as ever and these loyalist bands appeared to be fomenting bigotry, and openly so.

I was quite concerned by the attitude of the leader of the young Westies who said (with a sinister smirk) that a Catholic could join his band 'if he became a pradastan', when asked if the euphemistic 'peacewall' will ever come down he replied never, 'they keep building it higher'. That seemed to be the pervasive attitude of the loyalist bands, threatening and sectarian to the core, of the same mindset as those in the Orange Order who wish to discipline their members that attended the funeral mass of Ronan Kerr. They're cut from the same cloth as the dissidents, revelling in their hatred and ignorance.

I don't care much for the music, the flautists seem to be consistently out of key (with each other?), though the drummers are usually quite good and the little boy was prodigious. Perhaps he will go on, like former bandmen James Galway and Jimmy Nesbitt, to bigger and better things and leave the sectarianism behind. I enjoyed the irony of self-proclaimed super loyalists ('more British than the people who live in Britain', as the guy who led the young boys' band said, then went on to describe the streets of Belfast as Britain) playing a tune like "Men of Harlech" -- it's not about the Fuzzywuzzies, chaps.

a unionist refering to themselves as irish is a sly way of insulting what it is to be truly irish , its a way of diluting the nationality , of relegating it to secondary importance , i.e , ian pasley is britsh but hes irish aswell , ive no problem with british people , i like english people a lot but you cant be irish and also be of another nationality

the unionist community in northern ireland were never renowned for thier artistic skills beit in music , literature etc , engineering , farming etc was where thier main talents lay and they are still very good at the farming part , in fact many farmers in the south of irelandd have learned a lot from our neighbours north of the border , i say that as someone who went on farm trips to the north as a kid growing up , the flute bands are not exactly inventive or artistically creative , repetitive and monotonous to say the least

Exile 1798

belacqua_ wrote: »

I felt great sympathy for the little red haired boy

Me too.

KeithAFC

belacqua_ wrote: »

Why?

This was one of the most depressing documentaries I've seen in some time, Northern Ireland has some way to go before it will ever be 'normal'. I felt great sympathy for the little red haired boy and it speaks volumes of that subculture that he was the only interviewee who had any sense.

It was interesting to hear working class Protestants speaking in Sinn Féinese and refer to the Troubles as a 'War' and a 'Conflict', something official Unionism tends to avoid. There was some hope there in the ex-prisoner's view that the country was moving on and people didn't want to return to the nightmare of the recent past, but on the whole sectarianism seemed as entrenched as ever and these loyalist bands appeared to be fomenting bigotry, and openly so.

I was quite concerned by the attitude of the leader of the young Westies who said (with a sinister smirk) that a Catholic could join his band 'if he became a pradastan', when asked if the euphemistic 'peacewall' will ever come down he replied never, 'they keep building it higher'. That seemed to be the pervasive attitude of the loyalist bands, threatening and sectarian to the core, of the same mindset as those in the Orange Order who wish to discipline their members that attended the funeral mass of Ronan Kerr. They're cut from the same cloth as the dissidents, revelling in their hatred and ignorance.

I don't care much for the music, the flautists seem to be consistently out of key (with each other?), though the drummers are usually quite good and the little boy was prodigious. Perhaps he will go on, like former bandmen James Galway and Jimmy Nesbitt, to bigger and better things and leave the sectarianism behind. I enjoyed the irony of self-proclaimed super loyalists ('more British than the people who live in Britain', as the guy who led the young boys' band said, then went on to describe the streets of Belfast as Britain) playing a tune like "Men of Harlech" -- it's not about the Fuzzywuzzies, chaps.

You don't seem to understand that people in this community (Shankill Road) seen the UVF as the peoples army. Just look at the mural at the start of the programme. Of course they are going to have UVF banners and so on. Everyone knows some one who was in the UVF during the troubles or was effected in the troubles by the IRA.

So you can't act like you are surprised by it. Comparing them to Dissidents is rather silly as 1) - They aren't on an armed campaign and trying to kill police officers and 2) - Young kids being in bands is not being in an armed group with an AK.

And secondly, these bands aren't world class on the band scene compared to other bands. That wasn't the point of the programme really. More about the surroundings and the young boy, more than the bands, which was a shame really but it was what it was.

I don't know why people keep mentioning the Orange Order when it comes to this but even so, so what if people are in the Orange Order. I don't see the big deal to be honest.

belacqua_

irishh_bob wrote: »

the unionist community in northern ireland were never renowned for thier artistic skills beit in music , literature etc , engineering etc was where thier main talents lay , the flute bands are not exactly inventive or artistically creative , repetitive and monotonous to say the least

That's a bit of an unfair generalisation, bob: CS Lewis, John Hewitt, Derek Mahon, and Louis MacNeice (and Beckett's mother was from Ballymena) immediately spring to mind and I'm sure many other examples can be cited from across the arts.

KeithAFC

a unionist refering to themselves as irish is a sly way of insulting what it is to be truly irish

A bit like the Aryan race argument to be honest. Rather silly.

francois

irishh_bob wrote: »

but calling yourself irish and british is like calling yourself british and french

And your point is? I'm half french and I identify with being both irish and french

junder

blahfckingblah wrote: »

liam neeson isnt a sinn fein politician though.

And neither is he in a flute band, so why bring it up?

junder

Exile 1798 wrote: »

It’s interesting, you brought up Nesbitt as an example of an high profile and well liked person from an Orange background. Yet when it's pointed out that Nesbitt and his family no longer march and have taken an anti-sectarian position, you suddenly switched to using contemptful language about him.

It's sad that one single fact about him, which most people would regard as an unmitigated positive, actually serves to lessen him in your eyes.

I never mentioned the orange order, so made no comment about nesbits 'orange' background, I merely used to show that membership of bands is more wide spread then you think. Also I think it's slightly ironic that the famous 'irish' James Galway learned to play his flute in a loyalist flute band from tigers bay.

sensibleken

junder wrote: »

I never mentioned the orange order, so made no comment about nesbits 'orange' background, I merely used to show that membership of bands is more wide spread then you think. Also I think it's slightly ironic that the famous 'irish' James Galway learned to play his flute in a loyalist flute band from tigers bay.

whats ironic about it? i know plenty of trad musicians from an ulster protestant background, James Galway plays classical flute.

junder

belacqua_ wrote: »

In relation to the loyalist bands commemorating sectarian murder gangs, the expression 'polishing a turd' came to mind.

Yer flute bands supporting terrorists who would of thought it


http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=HinEXEC64tg

junder

sensibleken wrote: »

whats ironic about it? i know plenty of trad musicians from an ulster protestant background, James Galway plays classical flute.

Still learnt to play that flute in a loyalist flute band, I know a few bands play the classical flute on parade as well