Irish Rail draft Connolly timetables

Hungerford

Irish Rail have just put up the draft schedules for the Belfast, Rosslare, Sligo and DART lines. The link is here: http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=1130

Irish Rail have highlighted some changes but I would like to add some that Tricky Dicky forgot to mention:

* Services cut to Dundalk, including one peak time semi-fast service (the 18.45)

* No services south of Greystones until 09.40

* No northbound services on Rosslare line after 17.55

* Longer journey times on most routes

PseudoFamous

On the Rosslare line, Irishrail seem to be trying to lose customers. First, they increase the prices, now, they decrease the frequency of services. The bus now holds an absolute advantage on price, frequency and speed.
Coach services should only be a fill in when a train isn't viable. In a commute based society, it's inexcusable for the rail service to be so dire, especially when the country is so small.

Cookie_Monster

Hungerford wrote: »

* No services south of Greystones until 09.40

* No northbound services on Rosslare line after 17.55

Nail in the coffin right there, the plan for Rosslare seems to be coming together nicely

Hungerford wrote: »

* Longer journey times on most routes

How are they even allowed approval for that? Madness increasing journey times, just one more little thing to drive people away

Judgement Day

Save the Rail/Mark Gleeson seem to think that the new timetable is the greatest thing since sliced bread - I can't see it myself. Still poxy little three piece DMUs with no dining cars, expensive, slow - the scenery about the only reason left to take the train.

bk

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Coach services should only be a fill in when a train isn't viable. In a commute based society, it's inexcusable for the rail service to be so dire, especially when the country is so small.

I disagree, when you have such a small country with excellent roads, coach services are far cheaper, faster and more flexible then rail.

It is clear that the future of IR is purely urban and suburban commuter services.

Intercity is dead other then a few services to the likes of Cork, but even that is pretty marginal.

Use the right tool for the job. If coaches are faster, cheaper and more flexible, why should we be maintaining rail?

Judgement Day

bk wrote: »

I disagree, when you have such a small country with excellent roads, coach services are far cheaper, faster and more flexible then rail.

It is clear that the future of IR is purely urban and suburban commuter services.

Intercity is dead other then a few services to the likes of Cork, but even that is pretty marginal.

Use the right tool for the job. If coaches are faster, cheaper and more flexible, why should we be maintaining rail?

Speaks a motorist perchance?

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

I disagree, when you have such a small country with excellent roads, coach services are far cheaper, faster and more flexible then rail.

It is clear that the future of IR is purely urban and suburban commuter services.

Intercity is dead other then a few services to the likes of Cork, but even that is pretty marginal.

Use the right tool for the job. If coaches are faster, cheaper and more flexible, why should we be maintaining rail?

In other similar sized areas modern rail services are railcars similar to the 29000s and 22000 for the intercity express services but Irish rail and those who have been responsible for rail related decisions up to now have been living in a different century altogether where the porter greets you with a nod and loads her ladyship's trunk into the guards van while his lordship and herself take their places in 1st and the servants and gardener cook etc travel in 2nd, they have clung onto their beloved locomotives and shabby uncomfortable mark3 and 4 wagons at the cost of their beloved company.

Irish Rail travel is dead but they wont bury it.

PseudoFamous

bk wrote: »

Use the right tool for the job. If coaches are faster, cheaper and more flexible, why should we be maintaining rail?

Actually, you're right. There is no reason to use trains when coaches are better on all these fronts.

However, Trains have the advantage of being not having speed limits as low as motorways (though the rail is of too low quality to act on this), and being able to carry far more people than a bus.

Despite this, Irishrail are not trying to improve their service, and are instead worsening it by the day. If double tracking and electrified rail had found itself to commuter routes, perhaps train services could have stood a chance. Of course, slashing their services, and making them slower will not help the situation at all, and will only decrease passenger numbers. An increase in price may have been allowed for if they had improved the service, but obviously, that was too much to expect from them.

I note, however, that the Western commuter line hasn't been slashed yet, so the services being pulled from these lines may be put onto that.

TheChrisD

So, from the POV of a commuter on the M3 Parkway spur of the line:

- We lose our half-hourly service off-peak (don't mind that really, they were barely used) in exchange for serving all stops to Connolly. A fair trade-off, except for that it's off-peak only, when I'd say most people who would want to go to Drumcondra/Connolly would be going at peak times.

- Afternoon sync with the Maynooth trains is very bad, particularly the 1510 and 1805 from M3 Parkway, and the 1855 (connecting with the 1855 from Docklands) and 1859 from Pearse (connecting with 1925 Docklands). Any passengers who need to go to/from Hansfield/Dunboyne/M3 and Docklands/Connolly are pretty well screwed with a 15+ minute wait at Clonsilla, which is far higher than the normal with is at most 8 minutes.

foggy_lad

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Actually, you're right. There is no reason to use trains when coaches are better on all these fronts.

However, Trains have the advantage of being not having speed limits as low as motorways (though the rail is of too low quality to act on this), and being able to carry far more people than a bus.

Road will always be faster than rail due to the old backward rail network and the costs involved in updating and removing restrictions and as for carrying more than a bus i completly agree, As long as all those people want to go to/from Dublin at the same time.

Despite this, Irishrail are not trying to improve their service, and are instead worsening it by the day. If double tracking and electrified rail had found itself to commuter routes, perhaps train services could have stood a chance. Of course, slashing their services, and making them slower will not help the situation at all, and will only decrease passenger numbers. An increase in price may have been allowed for if they had improved the service, but obviously, that was too much to expect from them.

I note, however, that the Western commuter line hasn't been slashed yet, so the services being pulled from these lines may be put onto that.

Double tracking sections is not the answer as recent incidents have shown Irish Rail not capable or competent to manage the existing railway network and infrastructure, the last thing they need is more track to take care of and maintain. all that will be left soon is the western rail corridor and its supporters singing to the tune of a Great Johnny Horton favourite

Way up north, (North To Sligo.)
Way up north, (North To Sligo.)
North to Rockall,
They're goin' North, the rush is on.
North to Rockall,
They're goin' North, the rush is on.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

Speaks a motorist perchance?

LOL, actually you couldn't be further from the truth.

Don't own a car (out of choice, not cost), cycle to work every day and take public transport.

I'm not a fan of any form of transport, I'm a fan of moving people from A to B in the most efficient, cost effective and environmentally friendly manner possible.

PseudoFamous wrote: »

However, Trains have the advantage of being not having speed limits as low as motorways (though the rail is of too low quality to act on this), and being able to carry far more people than a bus.

Actually there are speed limits on the rail lines. The trains we have are capable of much faster speeds, but there are speed restrictions all over the rail network due to old track, etc.

As for more capacity, well that is also an advantage of coaches, if their is greater demand, then you just lay on extra coaches. If the demand is there, no reason 5 or 6 coaches can't leave at the same time on the same route.

But if the demand isn't there then you have just one coach rather then pulling 5 or 6 empty carriages.

And greater flexibility, much easier to transfer coaches between different areas/routes depending on demand. New coaches are much cheaper and quicker to buy then trains * if demand increases and coach drivers can be trained much quicker.

You can also hire in coaches from other coach companies if demand increases as often happens.

* Remember, we use a non standard rail gauge, so new trains have to be ordered years in advance, while coaches are pretty much a standard item built and sold widely throughout the world.

OurLadyofKnock

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail travel is dead but they wont bury it.

What we are really seeing is the culmination of a 60 year old death wish by the rail aspect of CIE. It is now on life support.

The best analogy I could use is a an elderly person who perhaps lived on a farm all their lives and never really had much use for modern technology. Then at age 80, this old guy develops a viral infection and ends up in a local General Hospital lying in a coma on his death bed surrounded by endless modern technology to try and keep him alive for a few days so friends and relatives can come and say goodbye. Eventually the MRIs CatScans, ECGs and endless other high tech medical machiney is switched off as our elderly friend loses his earthly metabolic functions and one by one his vital organs shut down until the last sodium channel within the last operational synase in his brain moves its last ion, electrical function ceases and the pineal gland is flushed with DMT and the Angel of Death shows up to spirit the hopeless case into oblivion.

Now compare this to Irish Rail. For decades they ran a functioning passenger and freight railway on essentially victorian infrastructure which worked more or less OK for what was required of it for 60 years. Then it began to slowly "rationalise" and suddenely this dying entity like the old man in the high-tech hospital found themselves surrounded by shiny railcars, new prefab stations with over engineered buildings, computer controlled everything and the DoT shows up and ushers the now hopeless patient into oblivion.


Then, just as the doctor is about to sign the death cert of the old guy the EKG starts going *BEEP"...*BEEP*...*BEEP*... and the doctors and nurses all suddenly rush into the emergency room and the medical team gets to work using all the miracles of modern medicine/technology to bring the old guy back. After a couple of days he is stitting up in bed drinking a cup of tea and checking out the nurses' arses and saying "Jaysus, I have not felt this good in years!" THE REBIRTH


CIE management hear that fuel prices are shooting up and road costs are making passenger and freight a real winner on the Irish Rail network once more. A new customer focussed approach of offering inter-city services with meals served and other comfort perks a bus can't offer is very appealing. This is the solution!!! An Irish Railway network offering the very alternatives to road transport which is the only, but highly significant advantage rail transport has left. Fuel prices continue to soar and rail is suddenly on the cusp of a rebirth! Freight revival is looking good too.

Instantly they call the IRRS into the room to organise a "Farewell Railway Children's Special" and much chicken dinner merriment. THE END


Now please buy my book and Derek Wheeler's when it comes out. You owe us both for all the hard work we both did and never once demanded a chicken dinner from any of you.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puzzling-People-Psychopath-Thomas-Sheridan/dp/1905605285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307010063&sr=8-1

Niles

This draft timetable is fairly a lackluster one alright, particularly the Rosslare. There seems to be no incentive at all to improve services on the line. I only occasionally get the train now as it's slightly cheaper then the bus from Arklow to Dublin, but for the extra few euro I get a lot more choice on the bus.

It's amazing how the Belfast service is still largely ignored despite the development of road transport on the same corridor. It's strange to think that back in the late 90s this was IÉ's flagship service, yet the weekday timetable has barely changed in the preceding 15 years. Ok so having an hourly service can't be done unless the respective governments approve funding for more rolling stock/mkIII refurbishment, but it's hard to fathom why IÉ and NIR are letting this service fall through the cracks while Bus Éireann begin to run circles around them.

foggy_lad

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

What we are really seeing is the culmination of a 60 year old death wish by the rail aspect of CIE. It is now on life support.

The best analogy I could use is a an elderly person who perhaps lived on a farm all their lives and never really had much use for modern technology. Then at age 80, this old guy develops a viral infection and ends up in a local General Hospital lying in a coma on his death bed surrounded by endless modern technology to try and keep him alive for a few days so friends and relatives can come and say goodbye. Eventually the MRIs CatScans, ECGs and endless other high tech medical machiney is switched off as our elderly friend loses his earthly metabolic functions and one by one his vital organs shut down until the last sodium channel within the last operational synase in his brain moves its last ion, electrical function ceases and the pineal gland is flushed with DMT and the Angel of Death shows up to spirit the hopeless case into oblivion.

Now compare this to Irish Rail. For decades they ran a functioning passenger and freight railway on essentially victorian infrastructure which worked more or less OK for what was required of it for 60 years. Then it began to slowly "rationalise" and suddenely this dying entity like the old man in the high-tech hospital found themselves surrounded by shiny railcars, new prefab stations with over engineered buildings, computer controlled everything and the DoT shows up and ushers the now hopeless patient into oblivion.


Then, just as the doctor is about to sign the death cert of the old guy the EKG starts going *BEEP"...*BEEP*...*BEEP*... and the doctors and nurses all suddenly rush into the emergency room and the medical team gets to work using all the miracles of modern medicine/technology to bring the old guy back. After a couple of days he is stitting up in bed drinking a cup of tea and checking out the nurses' arses and saying "Jaysus, I have not felt this good in years!" THE REBIRTH


CIE management hear that fuel prices are shooting up and road costs are making passenger and freight a real winner on the Irish Rail network once more. A new customer focussed approach of offering inter-city services with meals served and other comfort perks a bus can't offer is very appealing. This is the solution!!! An Irish Railway network offering the very alternatives to road transport which is the only, but highly significant advantage rail transport has left. Fuel prices continue to soar and rail is suddenly on the cusp of a rebirth! Freight revival is looking good too.

Instantly they call the IRRS into the room to organise a "Farewell Railway Children's Special" and much chicken dinner merriment. THE END


Now please buy my book and Derek Wheeler's when it comes out. You owe us both for all the hard work we both did and never once demanded a chicken dinner from any of you.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puzzling-People-Psychopath-Thomas-Sheridan/dp/1905605285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1307010063&sr=8-1

I was thinking more along the lines of an old farmer working on his farm with horses and old machinery and refusing to buy even the most basic tractor because he had got used to talking to his auld horse plodding away through the fields but he knows only too well his days are numbered but still wont move with the times, but what you said fits too:) except for the rebirth bit because i don't think Irirs Rail and their management and staff are capable of such change without rooting out the auld demon unions to bugger up the whole thing much like the auld fella in the bed getting MRSA.

-Chris-

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

Now please buy my book and Derek Wheeler's when it comes out. You owe us both for all the hard work we both did and never once demanded a chicken dinner from any of you.

Banned for a week for Trolling as per the Charter

bk

Can IrishRail intercity be reborn, maybe, but it is going to take a miracle.

It needs to:

1) Be at least as fast if not faster then by road.
2) Drop prices to be more competitive.
3) Get rid of the stupid fees for booking online.
4) Free wifi
5) Power at every seat
6) Cheap, high quality food.
7) Toilets working and properly cleaned.

4 to 7 are about maximising the advantages rail has over the car (and coach to a lesser extent).

2 to 7 should be doable today.

1 is much more controversial, as in order to achieve this, the government would need to spend hundreds of millions if not billions upgrading track for higher speeds. Spending that money is highly questionable when you have a perfectly working cheap alternative in coaches.

It would be questionable in the best of times, never mind in the middle of a recession when there are much worthier projects like DU and MN if the money was available.

At the very least, IR should be rushing to do 2 to 7 today, before more private direct intercity bus services get licenses for routes like Cork to Dublin and thus crucify the intercity trains.

n97 mini

Wow, passengers departing on evening ferries can get the train

Irish Rail wrote:

16.30 hrs Dublin Connolly / Wexford ... Providing faster journey time to the South East and also a new service to Rosslare Europort with connections into the evening ferry sailings to Wales and France.

But

Hungerford wrote: »

* No northbound services on Rosslare line after 17.55

passengers arriving on the evening ferries get the finger!

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

Can IrishRail intercity be reborn, maybe, but it is going to take a miracle.

It needs to:

2) Be at least as fast if not faster then by road.
3) Drop prices to be more competitive.
4) Get rid of the stupid fees for booking online.
5) Free wifi
6) Power at every seat
7) Cheap, high quality food.
8) Toilets working and properly cleaned.

5 to 8 are about maximising the advantages rail has over the car (and coach to a lesser extent).

3 to 8 should be doable today.

2 is much more controversial, as in order to achieve this, the government would need to spend hundreds of millions if not billions upgrading track for higher speeds. Spending that money is highly questionable when you have a perfectly working cheap alternative in coaches.

It would be questionable in the best of times, never mind in the middle of a recession when there are much worthier projects like DU and MN if the money was available.

At the very least, IR should be rushing to do 3 to 8 today, before more private direct intercity bus services get licenses for routes like Cork to Dublin and thus crucify the intercity trains.

(I have adapted your numbering system to suit my post)

I agree with all except number 7 as this is one of the reasons Irish rail have failed to move with the times! They need Cheap food but this is not possible if they want to retain good quality. They have been wasting too much money and making decisions about rolling stock based on serving a very small percentage of their customers who will chose 1st class regardless of the cost. A train is not the place to have a sit down meal with wine or a freshly pulled pint. if you want that I would suggest a trip on the Orient Express with your trunk and manservant.

The cost to the company is proving too great as the numbers using 1st class are not enough to supplement the numbers moving to cars and busses due to poor train times and high train fares, inflexible journey times etc etc.

Lets look at the list,

Number 1 in my list would be times and timetables! If a Waterford train is supposed to be in carlow at 12.04 but arrives at 12.05 it is LATE, no more massaging of figures or times and no more padding of timetables to allow for mistakes and tardiness. there should be a €100 fine payable to the state for every minute any train is late at destination AND at all intermediate stations!

Number 2 is not really possible and we can only blame the management of Irish Rail and the directors etc of CIE and successive governments(who are the same really) for not looking to the future.

Number 3 can be done to an extent but the problem is dropping fares only brings them in line with busses so a €10 galway-Dublin fare does not cover the last hurdle of the journey from Heuston Station into Dublin City so it will still be dearer than the bus by €1.40? the Luas fare and then the times are not as good either when you add the 20minute luas journey onto the train time.

Number 4 should be done immediately!

Number 5 is not such an issue and would cost too much now but should have been thought about many years ago when the first busses appeared with free WiFi.

Number 6 is becoming a reality for passengers on the new 22000s despite the best efforts of Irish Rail maintenance, but on the companys business trains they are stuck in the dark ages of porters and men with brolys and bowler hats who want to do nothing more than read the times on the way to work. those awful loco-hauled trains will soon be scrapped hopefully as to update tham would be more money wasted.

Number 7 can be done but not from a dining car but a good snack shop on each intercity train where passengers can buy a paper and tea coffee and other beverages but no alcohol as well as sandwiches crisps etc as well as this there should also be a well stocked snack trolley on every intercity service.

Number 8 the toilets should be cleaned and working of course and the alarm system should be sorted out so that non-smokers are not embarresed when the steam created sets off the smoke detector.

Number 9 I would also ban all alcohol on all trains and have a zero tolerance policy on this as well as banning all smoking on train platforms and while trains are waiting at stations with doors open! anyone breaking the rules should not be allowed travel that day and should get no refund, Free pass holders should have their pass taken and returned to the fre pass office with a cover letter for them to return it to the person.

Number 10 Irish rail is the national Rail operator and we should have pride in that! all other operators and groups whether heritage or other must fall in under the banner so that if a train or handcart moves on a track anywhere in the country it is an Irish Rail handcart or train!, no more heritage specials except those run and operated by Irish Rail.

Cookie_Monster

n97 mini wrote: »

Wow, passengers departing on evening ferries can get the train
But
passengers arriving on the evening ferries get the finger!

but sure aren't we all just emigrating anyway, who's gonna come back on the ferry these days :pac:

Niles

bk wrote:

Can IrishRail intercity be reborn, maybe, but it is going to take a miracle.

It needs to:

1) Be at least as fast if not faster then by road.
2) Drop prices to be more competitive.
3) Get rid of the stupid fees for booking online.
4) Free wifi
5) Power at every seat
6) Cheap, high quality food.
7) Toilets working and properly cleaned.

4 to 7 are about maximising the advantages rail has over the car (and coach to a lesser extent).

2 to 7 should be doable today.

1 is much more controversial, as in order to achieve this, the government would need to spend hundreds of millions if not billions upgrading track for higher speeds. Spending that money is highly questionable when you have a perfectly working cheap alternative in coaches.

It would be questionable in the best of times, never mind in the middle of a recession when there are much worthier projects like DU and MN if the money was available.

At the very least, IR should be rushing to do 2 to 7 today, before more private direct intercity bus services get licenses for routes like Cork to Dublin and thus crucify the intercity trains.

I agree. 2-4 and 6-7 could be done tomorrow if the will was there (I'm not sure about 5 as older stock like the Enterprise might need a bit of reconfiguration for this). 7 should be the case already.

I'm beginning to wonder if 1 would be a better spend than DU or MN, it would make the existing network sustainable into the future. Bus Éireann is beating them already on many routes, notably Belfast and Rosslare. The train service is getting more and more irrelevant in the case of the latter and as for the former it is a joke that they showing such little initiative on what was once the pride of the system. Galway is another example.

However, I would venture that there is a small thing that could be done towards achieving your first point and that would in relation to the priority order for Connolly based services. The fact that it is the exact opposite to that of Heuston beggars belief. The 18:30 Dublin-Rosslare gets to Bray 10 minutes quicker on a Sunday than on a weekday due to more headway between it and the preceding Dart. Of course I'm not advocating cutting back weekday Dart services to a Sunday level, but a bit more imaginative timetabling might allow for improvement here. In the long term some kind of overtaking facility between Connolly and Bray would be even better.

As for the Enterprise being held behind Darts and Commuters, that situation speaks for itself. A government commitment to increasing capacity on this route might well be a better spend than some of the projects currently under review, no point adding more to a system that is stretched as it is.

foggy_lad wrote:

Number 10 Irish rail is the national Rail operator and we should have pride in that! all other operators and groups whether heritage or other must fall in under the banner so that if a train or handcart moves on a track anywhere in the country it is an Irish Rail handcart or train!, no more heritage specials except those run and operated by Irish Rail.

EU legislation allows for private freight operators though, the more freight off the roads (where feasible) the better, so I wouldn't care if it's not an Irish Rail train. If Irish Rail won't take offers of freight custom then I'm more than happy to see another more willing company on the network. Irish Rail don't run Heritage specials nor would I expect them to. What Heritage specials do run do not interfere with the main business of running trains for the public (for instance if a heritage train is running late it may be held even later at a crossing point so as not to distrupt a service train), so that's not an issue.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

but sure aren't we all just emigrating anyway, who's gonna come back on the ferry these days :pac:

It is all about travel From Dublin to the rest of the country, even the special offers of €10 return are from Dublin to..... and it states you must start your journey in Dublin
http://irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=1122

A €20 Day Return fare from Dublin to any where in the Republic of Ireland by rail on Saturdays (€10 for children, €50 for a family of 2 adults and up to 4 children)- only available from the booking office. STARTS THIS SATURDAY, 4TH JUNE 2011

50% discount on tickets booked online for travel on Saturdays and some services on Sundays during the summer period.

also I am wondering does this apply to all tickets booked online or is there a limited number of seats available to buy online at the rerduced price?

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

Wow, passengers departing on evening ferries can get the train



But

passengers arriving on the evening ferries get the finger!

n97 mini wrote: »

Wow, passengers departing on evening ferries can get the train

But
passengers arriving on the evening ferries get the finger!

I actually looked at this and to be fair it is bloody difficult to do without upsetting people and having a long wait somewhere.

The times of the Rosslare line trains are dictated by the clockface DART timetable which which has half-hourly times to/from Greystones.

The latter means there are only two short windows each hour that a Rosslare service can fit into the DART service between Bray and Greystones. Therefore the southbound Rosslare trains are pretty much fixed in what time they can leave Dublin.

So taking this forward - look at the technical side of this:

Thinking it through - allow 15 minutes to get off the Stena ship (I discount Irish Ferries as it has no UK rail connecting trains) and another 20 minutes to get across to the station. The earliest it could go would be 1835.

If you delay the 1755 till 1835 then it will get to Wexford at 1900 and cross the 1637 there in the loop after leaving the station.

The delayed 1835 would then reach Enniscorthy at 1925. So far so good, but it would then have to wait until 1952 to continue (until the 1736 arrives). It would then continue with a short wait at Gorey (to cross the 1838) pretty much in the path of the current 1930 ex-Wexford.

I don't think that is a realistic option given a 25-30 minute wait along the way. You could of couse delay the 1736 for 15-18 minutes at Gorey and cross there, but do you want the busier train delayed for that long?

So next option is to leave at 1915 and cross the 1637 at Rosslare Strand. So far so good. That would mean then crossing the 1736 at Enniscorthy at about 2001 (would require that train waiting for an additional 10 minutes there), and the 1838 at Gorey (with no additional delay). Arrival time in Dublin would be somewhere around 2215.

The issue is that while this would accomodate ferry passengers, is it too late for passengers from stations along the line to be getting to Dublin? The current train is timed really to suit customers from Wexford north heading towards Dublin. It'd be a massive gap from the previous train as well.

Without extra services I'd wonder how viable such a late train would be.

Carawaystick

foggy_lad wrote: »

(I have adapted your numbering system to suit my post)

I agr
Number 9 I would also ban all alcohol on all trains and have a zero tolerance policy on this as well as banning all smoking on train platforms and while trains are waiting at stations with doors open! anyone breaking the rules should not be allowed travel that day and should get no refund, Free pass holders should have their pass taken and returned to the fre pass office with a cover letter for them to return it to the person.

Number 10 Irish rail is the national Rail operator and we should have pride in that! all other operators and groups whether heritage or other must fall in under the banner so that if a train or handcart moves on a track anywhere in the country it is an Irish Rail handcart or train!, no more heritage specials except those run and operated by Irish Rail.

When you're banning all alcohol do you include ripe fruit and medicine?

Why would you impose Irish rail on bird na mona the largest freight rail operator ? Or replace the luas with ir quality services?

bk

foggy_lad I agree with everything you said.

BTW when I said cheap, quality food, I meant the same as you, decent, quality sandwiches, rolls, paninis, etc. at a decent price.

Not full expensive bad quality meal services.

Also my list wasn't in order of priority, sorry if I caused any confusion there.

I can't believe that IR introduced no carriages on Cork to Dublin only a few years ago and no power at every seat and no wifi, madness.

I told IR years ago that they had to introduce wifi, they scoffed and came up with a stupid excuse that wifi would be replaced by newer technologies like 4G, etc. Now they are scrambling to add it as the coaches have it. Just goes to show how clueless they are.

Niles wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if 1 would be a better spend than DU or MN, it would make the existing network sustainable into the future. Bus Éireann is beating them already on many routes, notably Belfast and Rosslare. The train service is getting more and more irrelevant in the case of the latter and as for the former it is a joke that they showing such little initiative on what was once the pride of the system. Galway is another example.

Well first of all the money isn't there for either of them.

But if it was, I think it would be madness to spend it on intercity railway. Why spend billions on upgrading intercity railway, when coaches can already do it faster and cheaper. I see absolutely no reason to pour more money into intercity railway, exactly what benefit would we get from it, that we don't already get from coaches?

If we had the money, it would be much better spent elsewhere, like DU, MN, etc. no point spending it duplicating infrastructure we already have.

foggy_lad

Carawaystick wrote: »

When you're banning all alcohol do you include ripe fruit and medicine?

Why would you impose Irish rail on bird na mona the largest freight rail operator ? Or replace the luas with ir quality services?

They would be rebranded not let fall to pieces!

LXFlyer

Niles wrote: »

However, I would venture that there is a small thing that could be done towards achieving your first point and that would in relation to the priority order for Connolly based services. The fact that it is the exact opposite to that of Heuston beggars belief. The 18:30 Dublin-Rosslare gets to Bray 10 minutes quicker on a Sunday than on a weekday due to more headway between it and the preceding Dart. Of course I'm not advocating cutting back weekday Dart services to a Sunday level, but a bit more imaginative timetabling might allow for improvement here. In the long term some kind of overtaking facility between Connolly and Bray would be even better.

As explained above the clockface 15 minute DART timetable with half hourly to/from Greystones is the constraint that forces the Rosslare service to operate in the pattern it does.

Look at Bray/Greystones and v.v. on weekdays- to operate a 30 minute service to/from Greystones that means there are only two specific windows each hour that Rosslare trains can operate, because a DART occupies the section the rest of the time. The signal splitting the section gives a small amount of wriggle room. Likewise the Rosslare service has to fit into the 15 minute DART service north of Bray. Remember that a lot of people campaigned for that 15 minute service too.

The only way you could speed the Rosslare service up between Connolly and Bray would be the provision of an overtaking facility at Dun Laoghaire.

Johnnio13

Have to agree with bk.
IR are definitely not forward looking. Kitting out those new trains while being built for WIFI would not have added to the costs much, relative to overall cost.
Don't understand why IR run intercity trains on commuter lines like docklands when there isn't space available for the numbers using them.

Like all semi-states this is also in bad need of modernisation from what I can see as a user.
A clean out of unionised, archaic, unhelpful, over-paid management and staff to start with.
This is a monster rared by the state and fed by countless governments and plenty of nepotism.
The list of gripes I alone have is as long as the 50 people I work with. Start with local service, get that right, dart peak services that have gaps of 17mins is not a peak service.
Then move onto commuter and then inter-city, what is the ROI on the different services does anyone know?

patrickbrophy18

lxflyer wrote: »

The only way you could speed the Rosslare service up between Connolly and Bray would be the provision of an overtaking facility at Dun Laoghaire.

Would this be hard to achieve, I wonder?

I am aware of the fact that there is a third platform at Dun Laoghaire Station which currently acts like a cul de sac for trains using it as it is, essentially, the end of the line for trains terminating in Dun Laoghaire. However, would it be difficult to extend this track and reconnect it to the southbound track just after the station?

Anyway back on topic. I have seen the "Draft New Timetable" and there is an overall dis-improvement. The morning Balbriggan train is going to have three more stops pulled from it: Shankill; Killiney; and Dalkey. This is additional to the last timetable change which saw Glenageary and Sandycove being pulled from the list of stopping stations. From my experience, this service took on quite a lot of people at these stops and now, like the rest of the Bray-Drogheda/Maynooth Commuters, it will be running non-stop between Bray and Dun Laoghaire. Half of the time, when I see these services going through my neck of the woods, they go at a snails pace, cruising along the tracks and they are carrying air. I decided to take the initiative to give my feedback on the matter to express my disgust. The following is a copy of the feedback I gave:

"I notice that the Bray-Balbriggan Commuter service is being pulled from Shankill, Killiney and Dalkey in the Draft New Timetable. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this decision as such services cut the waiting time between DART's in half in the morning and evening peak times.

At peak times, a 15 minute wait is way too much given that there are a good few Commuters operating as far as Bray only. At present, all (bar one)of these services run non-stop between Dun Laoghaire and Bray skipping stations such as Dalkey which suffer severe over-crowding at peak times.

Furthermore, I frequently notice a lot of other Commuter services from Bray to Maynooth/Drogheda and vice versa cruising along between Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. Some of these services have excessive padding because they are sandwiched between two DART's.

As such, would it not make sense to have stations such as Dalkey and Killiney added to the list of stops where excessive timetable padding could be consolidated for these extra stops. This would remove the need for extra DART's and make better use of the current services."

LXFlyer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Would this be hard to achieve, I wonder?

I am aware of the fact that there is a third platform at Dun Laoghaire Station which currently acts like a cul de sac for trains using it as it is, essentially, the end of the line for trains terminating in Dun Laoghaire. However, would it be difficult to extend this track and reconnect it to the southbound track just after the station?

Eh I was thinking more of crossovers north and south of the station between the two running lines and bi-directional signalling - there would be no northbound services to conflict with.

Northbound would be more difficult and would have to happen in the Blackrock area due to there being a conflicting southbound service in Dun Laoghaire.

Either way I think the prospect of IE putting in 60mph graded crossovers to facilitate such moves is probably close to zero.

Stonewolf

I don't have long enough to post here to say as much as I'd like so I'm just going to say a quick word.

Foggy Lad is WRONG. Going around saying "we'll have one company for all the rails and one company for all the buses and ..." is part of what got us into the problem in the first place. Also the people saying we should just replace the whole thing with buses are short sighted, buses will not always be the solution and simply ditching our valuable rail infrastructure is not the way. What we need is an integrated system where rail infrastructure is taken into care of a dedicated state body or merged with the NRA (for a holistic infrastructure approach) and services are run according to function with a different state body operating long distance services by BOTH bus and rail using buses to feed the rail routes. Similarly commuter services and local services (long distance services should have a short number of stops and take the best route between them, the two bit pub & crossroads being served by a small feeder bus that interfaces at those stops).

We also of course need to change the way rail is funded but that's a rant for another day.

foggy_lad

Stonewolf wrote: »

I don't have long enough to post here to say as much as I'd like so I'm just going to say a quick word.

Foggy Lad is WRONG. Going around saying "we'll have one company for all the rails and one company for all the buses and ..." is part of what got us into the problem in the first place. Also the people saying we should just replace the whole thing with buses are short sighted, buses will not always be the solution and simply ditching our valuable rail infrastructure is not the way. What we need is an integrated system where rail infrastructure is taken into care of a dedicated state body or merged with the NRA (for a holistic infrastructure approach) and services are run according to function with a different state body operating long distance services by BOTH bus and rail using buses to feed the rail routes. Similarly commuter services and local services (long distance services should have a short number of stops and take the best route between them, the two bit pub & crossroads being served by a small feeder bus that interfaces at those stops).

We also of course need to change the way rail is funded but that's a rant for another day.

But why would anyone get a bus to one place to get the train to Dublin when they can get a direct bus to dublin with no changes for a lot cheaper than the train costs without the bus journey added on? people cant afford rail travel as it exists in Ireland today, normal people could never afford it!

bk

Stonewolf I'm not saying main lines should be dug up. I assume intercity rail will continue to operate, just a lot less important then it currently is.

What I would object to is hundreds of millions being invested in rail to upgrade it to speeds competitive with road.

foggy_lad

One example of Irish Rails problems is having no connection between Heuston Station and the City Centre. If I get a train to Dublin it takes on average 70 minutes on the actual train but add to that the extra 5 minutes getting to the station in Carlow plus the ten minutes walking from the Inchicore platforms in Heuston out to the luas stop then another 15-20 minutes at least to get into the City Centre. this costs a lot as the train is about €22 one way PLUS the luas fare from the Station into the City Centre.

on the other hand the bus gets from closer to most people in town into Dublin City Centre in 90 minutes from carlow sometimes faster. The bus costs a lot less whether you take Bus Eireann or JJ Kavanagh's



and ye may forget about all the one in a million chance web fares for €10 fares on the train i am talking about walk up fares which are so much cheaper than train fares!

PseudoFamous

Offtopic, but I'm continuing nonetheless.
Foggy, why is BusEireann's adult single from Carlow to Dublin €3 cheaper than the one from Arklow to Dublin? I was under the impression that Arklow is nearer than Carlow, on similar standard roads.. Something is rotten in the State of Ireland, and numerous angry emails are about to be made.

foggy_lad

PseudoFamous wrote: »

Offtopic, but I'm continuing nonetheless.
Foggy, why is BusEireann's adult single from Carlow to Dublin €3 cheaper than the one from Arklow to Dublin? I was under the impression that Arklow is nearer than Carlow, on similar standard roads.. Something is rotten in the State of Ireland, and numerous angry emails are about to be made.

Probably to do with route 002 and the percentage of the total distance Arklow is from Dublin calculated pro-rata against the fare from Dublin to Rosslare. Back on topic now and I must also note that stops along the train line leave you miles from town centres while busses will drop you to town centres and into villages en route. Just see how the busses to Rosslare stop in Arklow:D

Carawaystick

foggy_lad wrote: »

They would be rebranded not let fall to pieces!

The country is broke, why would you waste money rebranding bord na mona railways??
Or change the luas from a moderately successful brand to a shote one
You havent thought this through

foggy_lad

Carawaystick wrote: »

The country is broke, why would you waste money rebranding bord na mona railways??
Or change the luas from a moderately successful brand to a shote one
You havent thought this through

It is more about trying(possibly in vain) to improve the image of Irish rail by instilling a sense of national pride so people might make a conscious decision to take the train but your right as there is a great recession and all the extra money saved by a family going to Dublin on the bus would take the kids to the Zoo and possibly buy them lunch.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

I actually looked at this and to be fair it is bloody difficult to do without upsetting people and having a long wait somewhere.

I think a train is better than no train, and doing away with the only train that evening ferry passengers can get is retrograde. If anything the train that leaves before passengers arrive, the 17.55, should not be serving Rosslare Europort at all.

But where there's a will there's a way and someone with the right software or even just the right brain could devise a timetable satisfactory to all.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

I think a train is better than no train, and doing away with the only train that evening ferry passengers can get is retrograde. If anything the train that leaves before passengers arrive, the 17.55, should not be serving Rosslare Europort at all.

But where there's a will there's a way and someone with the right software or even just the right brain could devise a timetable satisfactory to all.

With respect I outlined the options to you above. I didn't just pluck them out of thin air - I actually sat down and modelled the timetable out (which you patently have not). You don't need anything more sophisticated than Microsoft Excel, knowledge of the location of passing loops, and a current timetable to do that. Just because I'm telling you something that you might not like to hear doesn't mean that it's not right.

You are constrained by the departure times of the "down" services from Dublin being fixed as that is the only window they can use to get around Bray Head because of the DART service to/from Greystones.

Therefore the only realistic alternative to leaving at 1755 is to depart at 1915. That will delay the 1736 at Enniscorthy by 10 minutes, but I would suggest that is acceptable.

The downside of this is that the train does not arrive into Dublin until 2215.

Don't get me wrong - I would like to see a ferry connection there too. The point that I am making is that unless you add an extra train between the 1255 and the 1915 around 1555, I would think that you could end up discommoding more customers than you are gaining by making the ferry connection for the simple reason that it would probably be too late for the majority of customers along the rest of the line arriving back into Dublin.

By all means when the extra ICRs are put into service I think it should happen - but right now I think you would be losing more than you would gain.

schemingbohemia

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Would this be hard to achieve, I wonder?

I am aware of the fact that there is a third platform at Dun Laoghaire Station which currently acts like a cul de sac for trains using it as it is, essentially, the end of the line for trains terminating in Dun Laoghaire. However, would it be difficult to extend this track and reconnect it to the southbound track just after the station?

Anyway back on topic. I have seen the "Draft New Timetable" and there is an overall dis-improvement. The morning Balbriggan train is going to have three more stops pulled from it: Shankill; Killiney; and Dalkey. This is additional to the last timetable change which saw Glenageary and Sandycove being pulled from the list of stopping stations. From my experience, this service took on quite a lot of people at these stops and now, like the rest of the Bray-Drogheda/Maynooth Commuters, it will be running non-stop between Bray and Dun Laoghaire. Half of the time, when I see these services going through my neck of the woods, they go at a snails pace, cruising along the tracks and they are carrying air. I decided to take the initiative to give my feedback on the matter to express my disgust. The following is a copy of the feedback I gave:

"I notice that the Bray-Balbriggan Commuter service is being pulled from Shankill, Killiney and Dalkey in the Draft New Timetable. I would strongly urge you to reconsider this decision as such services cut the waiting time between DART's in half in the morning and evening peak times.

At peak times, a 15 minute wait is way too much given that there are a good few Commuters operating as far as Bray only. At present, all (bar one)of these services run non-stop between Dun Laoghaire and Bray skipping stations such as Dalkey which suffer severe over-crowding at peak times.

Furthermore, I frequently notice a lot of other Commuter services from Bray to Maynooth/Drogheda and vice versa cruising along between Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire. Some of these services have excessive padding because they are sandwiched between two DART's.

As such, would it not make sense to have stations such as Dalkey and Killiney added to the list of stops where excessive timetable padding could be consolidated for these extra stops. This would remove the need for extra DART's and make better use of the current services."

Ah man, that's the train I usually get, though the reason I get it is probably the reason it's being pulled from Dalkey, loads of space and always get a seat. Though seeing as it's running anyway I'm not sure of the time saved by not stopping at Dalkey where a good few people get on it (as in 20).

Losty Dublin

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect I outlined the options to you above. I didn't just pluck them out of thin air - I actually sat down and modelled the timetable out (which you patently have not). You don't need anything more sophisticated than Microsoft Excel, knowledge of the location of passing loops, and a current timetable to do that. Just because I'm telling you something that you might not like to hear doesn't mean that it's not right.

You are constrained by the departure times of the "down" services from Dublin being fixed as that is the only window they can use to get around Bray Head because of the DART service to/from Greystones.

Therefore the only realistic alternative to leaving at 1755 is to depart at 1915. That will delay the 1736 at Enniscorthy by 10 minutes, but I would suggest that is acceptable.

The downside of this is that the train does not arrive into Dublin until 2215.

Don't get me wrong - I would like to see a ferry connection there too. The point that I am making is that unless you add an extra train between the 1255 and the 1915 around 1555, I would think that you could end up discommoding more customers than you are gaining by making the ferry connection for the simple reason that it would probably be too late for the majority of customers along the rest of the line arriving back into Dublin.

By all means when the extra ICRs are put into service I think it should happen - but right now I think you would be losing more than you would gain.

A wise post, LX.

Timetabling services is very awkward, especially when there is single line sections such as that between Bray and Greystones to work around. There are a lot of factors to work in; speed restrictions and stock operating speeds, rostered driver hours need to be fitted in to allow for legal rest periods whilerolling stock needs to be in specific places at specific times to try and maximise operating potential. And all this is before working services around other services on a route, trying to make connections for as many services as possible and at the same time ensuring that services with little potential are either curtailed, deferred or advanced to times to make us of available resources.

All in all, it's a lot harder than it appears on the face of it and some services do and will lose out.

bmaxi

Niles wrote: »

This draft timetable is fairly a lackluster one alright, particularly the Rosslare. There seems to be no incentive at all to improve services on the line. I only occasionally get the train now as it's slightly cheaper then the bus from Arklow to Dublin, but for the extra few euro I get a lot more choice on the bus.

Slightly off topic but I've taken the bus from Gorey quite frequently lately and on two occasions it was full at the Marine hotel in Arklow with prospective passengers left behind from Bridgewater on. I'm wondering, if the train service is to be further curtailed, is there an argument for extending the occasional 133 from Wicklow.

LXFlyer

bmaxi wrote: »

Slightly off topic but I've taken the bus from Gorey quite frequently lately and on two occasions it was full at the Marine hotel in Arklow with prospective passengers left behind from Bridgewater on. I'm wondering, if the train service is to be further curtailed, is there an argument for extending the occasional 133 from Wicklow.

All the more reason for an improved rail service once the additional ICR fleet is commissioned.

patrickbrophy18

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The reason I get it is probably the reason it's being pulled from Dalkey, loads of space and always get a seat. Though seeing as it's running anyway I'm not sure of the time saved by not stopping at Dalkey where a good few people get on it (as in 20).

So, they are pretty much doing the opposite of what they should be doing at the expense of the passenger.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect I outlined the options to you above. I didn't just pluck them out of thin air -

I think you're missing my point. There is a train ex Wexford at 19:30. Why doesn't that depart the port at 19:05, providing a service to arriving passengers?

And, what is the point of serving the port with the 17.55 at all?

bmaxi

lxflyer wrote: »

All the more reason for an improved rail service once the additional ICR fleet is commissioned.

I won't argue with that but I don't see the likelihood seeing as one train from Arklow has already been axed.
In truth, bus is a much better option since Rathnew and Ashford were removed from the equation. Some trains are already taking over two hours from Gorey, a journey of less than 60 miles, while the bus will have you there in 1hr 40mins.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

I think you're missing my point. There is a train ex Wexford at 19:30. Why doesn't that depart the port at 19:05, providing a service to arriving passengers?

And, what is the point of serving the port with the 17.55 at all?

The train that does the 19:30 from Wexford cannot do a 19:05 from the harbour because it only arrives at Wexford at 19:04 - it is the 16:30 from Dublin.

That train in the new timetable is now being extended to the harbour to arrive at 19:25. The problem in using that train for a service from the Harbour to Dublin is that again you have to cross two trains en route - therefore the earliest that could leave (in order to pass the other trains at passing loops) is 19:45, which to my mind is far too late. Who would wait until that time for a train off a ship that arrived at 18:00?

The 17:55 is the return of the 13:30 from Dublin. There is still reasonable local traffic to/from Rosslare Strand - I'm not sure about local traffic to/from the harbour.

The only option to my mind of providing a service for the ferry is to defer the 17:55 to 19:15, but realistically to do that there needs to be an additional train during the late afternoon from Rosslare to cover for people that would have used the 17:55 along the line as the deferred train is much later. And until the new stock enters service there ain't a train to do that.

At the end of the day you need to stand back and look at what train does which trip. You also need to get trains and crews to end up at the right location, and you need to pass at loops! Pathing trains on single track routes is frankly difficult enough, but all the more so when you have the constraints imposed by the DART timetable as well.

Niles

Acknowledging that not much can be done about the Dart area constraints without significant (and unlikely) investment, surely some moves could be made towards operating a more frequent service (similar to that of the Sligo line) on the Rosslare service. A two hourly service with ICRs might have some chance at winning back custom from the road. Passing loops might be an issue, but even if the timetable was "roughly" every two hours (as opposed to purely clockface) it would be a great deal better than what's currently on offer. Up until the December 2004 timetable change the Sligo line timetable was similar to the Rosslare one, yet it managed to prosper under a more frequent timetable, with a bit of effort surely Rosslare-Dublin would do well too if given such a chance. Granted the the Rosslare line has more of a rival in terms of bus services than the Sligo line does, but surely that should be an incentive for IÉ to enhance the service. Although the fact that they are letting the road gradually encroach on the Enterprise service doesn't give me much hope for the Rosslare.

PseudoFamous

As has been pointed out, the DART is the Rosslare line's biggest problem. Could a temporary Greystones terminus for the line work? Then one could take the DART from there to the city centre.
That would allow DARTs to fill the now empty Rosslare slots, and a much larger amount of opportunities would be available for intercitys to run, due to not being constrained to the DART schedule. AFAIK, there is a passing loop at every station other than Kilcoole, so having two trains in opposite directions in an hour at every station is very possible.

Losty Dublin

Niles wrote: »

Acknowledging that not much can be done about the Dart area constraints without significant (and unlikely) investment, surely some moves could be made towards operating a more frequent service (similar to that of the Sligo line) on the Rosslare service. A two hourly service with ICRs might have some chance at winning back custom from the road. Passing loops might be an issue, but even if the timetable was "roughly" every two hours (as opposed to purely clockface) it would be a great deal better than what's currently on offer. Up until the December 2004 timetable change the Sligo line timetable was similar to the Rosslare one, yet it managed to prosper under a more frequent timetable, with a bit of effort surely Rosslare-Dublin would do well too if given such a chance. Granted the the Rosslare line has more of a rival in terms of bus services than the Sligo line does, but surely that should be an incentive for IÉ to enhance the service. Although the fact that they are letting the road gradually encroach on the Enterprise service doesn't give me much hope for the Rosslare.

There have been proposals to do just that. What hampered it up till now has been a lack of rolling stock, issues with train paths around suburban services and timetable restructuring; there is also minor issues in relation to the city resignaling project and the relaying of track around Dun Laoghaire. From about late next year, there should be big improvement afoot on the line but for now, it's a case of bear with it.

Niles

PseudoFamous wrote: »

As has been pointed out, the DART is the Rosslare line's biggest problem. Could a temporary Greystones terminus for the line work? Then one could take the DART from there to the city centre.
That would allow DARTs to fill the now empty Rosslare slots, and a much larger amount of opportunities would be available for intercitys to run, due to not being constrained to the DART schedule. AFAIK, there is a passing loop at every station other than Kilcoole, so having two trains in opposite directions in an hour at every station is very possible.

The problem with that is that having to change trains is going to put people off using the service. If you can board a bus in Wexford, Arklow, wherever, and remain on that bus all the way to Dublin that's going to be seen as an advantage over the train.

I'd also imagine that there could be servicing issues, in that the the railcars will still need to travel to Connolly for maintenance, refuelling, etc, though in theory this could be done at night.