Irish Aid Budget - Completely Undefendable

the groutch

being discussed on The Frontline now, it boggles the mind how €700m can be spend on foreign aid when our own country is crashing and burning around us, espcially when some of it will inevitably end up in the hands of those with military involvement.

and not a single government minister was prepared to turn up to defend it, and are instead being defended by a Trocaire director who is on €120k a year (more than most TDs), sums it all up

Jenroche

It's making my blood boil. All those most vulnerable people suffering because of HSE cuts suffering at home when desperately-needed money is being taken out of the country and handed over to countries with corrupt military regimes who mis-spend it on arms. Shouldn't we be looking after our own first? :eek:

20Cent

Disgusting of RTE to link Irish aid and carers as if the two are linked. Stop sending aid to overseas banks first. The Primetime was heartbreaking and not a single gov or HSE representative available. Frontline could have had a good discussion about it but instead use it to bash foreign aid.

denlaw

Prime time tonight was one of the saddest things I've seen on telly .
We're very soft , as a people we're lily livered and will just bend over even further when they come and cut services again ..

Rant over ..

Anita Blow

As someone raised, if we were to cut our aid budget completely, do you think 1 cent would be used to keep jobs? No it'd be put into the banks or to pay off our debt.

Ireland hasn't be shy to accept development aid in the past from the EU even though many of the donor countries went through recessions and crises. I admit we should reduce aid in line with tax shortfalls accordingly but we shouldn't slash it.

Owldshtok

Anita Blow wrote: »

As someone raised, if we were to cut our aid budget completely, do you think 1 cent would be used to keep jobs? No it'd be put into the banks or to pay off our debt.

Ireland hasn't be shy to accept development aid in the past from the EU even though many of the donor countries went through recessions and crises. I admit we should reduce aid in line with tax shortfalls accordingly but we shouldn't slash it.

To be exact the trocaire guy Justin (Kilcullen?) said Ireland has received €40bn in total of development funds from the EU,and Germany was making contributions even when going through the vast expense of re-unification.

Doom

Yes we should look after our own...stop some capital works for a year or two to pay for healthcare...but not foreign aid, We as part of the 1st world countries are somewhat responsible for the state of Africa, by trade agreements and by being part of the EU too....time to pay our debt.... man up Ireland!!!

Slydice

I'm confused...

is the point of this thread to say...

that because we are broke...

we shouldn't take money from other countries who are broke...

and then give the money to other countries who are broke

because somehow it'll make us less broke...

and help the whole "everybodies broke" problem?


We're still giving shedloads more money to our banks right?...

and about 10 to 20 times the money to anglo irish bank... right?


Wow, confusing

Icepick

Aid should not be stopped for moral and economic reasons.

white1awake

We as part of the 1st world countries are somewhat responsible for the state of Africa,

No, we are most certainly NOT responsible for the state Africa is in.

That show was absolute torture to watch. And that overpaid Trocaire lefty lacky Justin (thanks for letting us know how much money he is sucking out of the "charity" he "works" for) actually said the following tonight:

"We are responsible for teaching these Africans how to rise up against their corrupt governments" (I am paraphrasing)

HAHA, I couldn't believe that insane statement got APPLAUSE: are you kidding me?

Once again, Irish people need to wake up and shake off the Multicultural brainwashing and start to love our own people as much as some here love the warm and fuzzy feeling of throwing money we don't have at their pet projects in 3rd world hellholes.

andrew

The people to whom aid money goes need that money more than we do. Thats why it's aid. That money does more human good as aid than it would were it not spent on aid. So I don't think we should ever stop aid.

white1awake

The people to whom aid money goes need that money more than we do. Thats why it's aid. That money does more human good as aid than it would were it not spent on aid. So I don't think we should ever stop aid.

Umm, is this a joke?

The money is going to corrupt TYRANTS and DICTATORS for the most part, it is not "helping" anyone really. THAT is the whole point: it is not WORKING. Africa is still screwed, and in case you haven't noticed Andrew: IRELAND HAS TO BORROW MONEY TO SURVIVE.
Where is the morality of wasting money we don't have while pretending to be in a position of being able to provide AID?

PeteHeat

Ireland received 40 billion from around 1970 up to 2000 (maybe it went on longer or stopped just short of 2000).

We could have survived without a lot of that aid, very few (if any) were starving to death in Ireland of 1970, our schools might not have been great but they produced fairly well educated people, we had hospitals and health care that may have been better in some ways than what we have today.

I have no doubt some of the money being sent abroad is being used for purposes other than helping the people who need it most especially direct payments to governments.

However there are thousands who are not starving because of that aid, possibly in the millions who are alive because of it.

Thousands are receiving education, the very education that will help those countries to become contributors in the future.

Health care, teaching basic farming methods, providing clean water to drink, most important teaching the people how to help themselves and their neighbours.

If The Meek Do Inherit The Earth, lets have them as friends of Ireland, the way things are going we need them more than they need us.

Leaving the almost 700 million in our Governments hands will not produce one front line health care worker, it may be used to produce a warehouse load of reports on why we should re-start the aid program.

andrew

white1awake wrote: »

Umm, is this a joke?

The money is going to corrupt TYRANTS and DICTATORS

Yeah? Proof?

it is not WORKING. Africa is still screwed,

But what about the aid that actually is and might be effective.

and in case you haven't noticed Andrew: IRELAND HAS TO BORROW MONEY TO SURVIVE.
Where is the morality of wasting money we don't have while pretending to be in a position of being able to provide AID?

AID isn't a waste. It provides vital money for the poorest countries in the world. Those poor people need it more than we do.

later12

I am a little bit torn on this issue. On the one hand, the biggest exposure to the global debt crisis by the African economy is in terms of foreign aid. For most sub Saharan countries, international aid remains the greatest source of capital. By withdrawing aid we are doing the African economy a great dis-service.

However there is something to be said for a temporary lightening of the Irish aid package in that the OECD has already donated extra funding to the IMF to be forwarded to fragile economies in the developing world to help them weather the drought in aid, having priced in the lowering of foreign aid by some of the troubled wealthy economies, like Ireland. This has led to the IMF expanding its operations in parts of sub Saharan Africa. So perhaps, to some extent, our bill has already been paid to an extent. So perhaps there is something in that argument when one considers that loweing our burden in the short term might allow us to pick it up with greater meaning in the long term.

There is also the argument that parts of the developing world which have previously been aid recipients are making up for losses through capital inflows arising out of expansionary policies such as quantitative easing in the US, or equivalents.

What has to be taken into account also, however, is that migrant remittances (i.e. private earnings being sent home) have dropped significantly.

There is an interesting paper by the OECD on this issue, which although is not a totally comprehensive analysis, does delve deeper into the economic ramifications of the western crises as fragile economies have seen them.
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/51/53/46043358.pdf

In the end, this is an extremely difficult question to answer from an unbiased economic perspective. I think posters on both sides have strong arguments coming down against them. In the event of all academic arguments being equal, I have to say I have to go with my gut, and my gut would say do not decrease the aid.

white1awake

Andrew, you keep saying "they" need it more than we do. Who exactly is the "they" you speak of?

And you are asking ME for proof of what I say----well, where is your proof? Where is your proof that the people needing the money are actually getting it?

And btw, who died and made you Judge of who is worthy of Irish money? My vote goes to IRISH people first.....the TV show tonight showed many people who are suffering due to not being able to have their operations done in time. Some have even been told it is now too late to do anything about their problem and they will most likely have to live in terrible pain until they die.

The bottom line is that we do NOT have 700 MILLION EUROS to give in Aid when we have to had to get a BAILOUT to survive ourselves. Why is this so difficult to understand?

WalterMitty

Nobody is dying here from lack of food, water or basic medicines. Humanity as a whole benefits from humanitarian aid and in long term a developed africa/3rd will benefit the world. Life here in ireland ,even on dole is beyond the wildest dreams of most people on this planet. The system is set up to keep rich countries rich and the poor countries poor. If we got hit by a meteor tomorrow and it ruined most of the country we'd be begging for help from abroad. We should just give the money to Bill Gates to make sure it is properly distributed and benefits the blameless poor vulnerable people there scraping in the dirt to survive.

Count Dooku

WalterMitty wrote: »

Nobody is dying here from lack of food, water or basic medicines.

Only because EU/IMF are still paying for populism of Irish politicians through bailouts

WalterMitty wrote: »

Humanity as a whole benefits from humanitarian aid and in long term a developed africa/3rd will benefit the world.

Mostly humanity benefit people who distribute aid
Did it help to Ethiopia, where foreign aid pushed population to levels which country cannot afford?

WalterMitty wrote: »

Life here in ireland ,even on dole is beyond the wildest dreams of most people on this planet.

Dole is high only because Ireland was and still is borrowing huge amount of money
Nothing is stopping "poor" countries from doing the same trick themselves

Do you think it is fair to force our kids pay for our hypocrisy and unwillingness to admit that Ireland is not much different from countries where aid been paid?

RichardAnd

Count Dooku wrote: »

Only because EU/IMF are still paying for populism of Irish politicians through bailouts


Mostly humanity benefit people who distribute aid
Did it help to Ethiopia, where foreign aid pushed population to levels which country cannot afford?



Dole is high only because Ireland was and still is borrowing huge amount of money
Nothing is stopping "poor" countries from doing the same trick themselves

Do you think it is fair to force our kids pay for our hypocrisy and unwillingness to admit that Ireland is not much different from countries where aid been paid?

This post raises some facts which are uncomfortable but hard to refute.

jakdelad

where s john o shea when he s wanted
will someone tell him his own country is in the sh1t
maybe he could for once just for once steer a few bob our way

this is the man who said no one shoud send any money to the victims
of hurricane katrina, because he said america have enough millionaires over there....

ireland has for decades and decades sent money and aid to every poor country in the world
time now to bandage our own wounds.......

jakdelad

Icepick wrote: »

Aid should not be stopped for moral and economic reasons.

all very noble having morals, but you cant ate them
they dont take morals in tesco they prefer euros

Zubeneschamali

We're not dying, we still have one of the highest standards of living in the world.

Africa, meanwhile, is not just the same old sink for aid, there has been lots of progress, with much still to be done. Check it out:

http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/outlook/progress-towards-the-millennium-development-goals/

ozt9vdujny3srf

white1awake wrote: »

Umm, is this a joke?

The money is going to corrupt TYRANTS and DICTATORS for the most part, it is not "helping" anyone really. THAT is the whole point: it is not WORKING. Africa is still screwed, and in case you haven't noticed Andrew: IRELAND HAS TO BORROW MONEY TO SURVIVE.
Where is the morality of wasting money we don't have while pretending to be in a position of being able to provide AID?

Your argument loses credibility here (not that it ever had any.). Surely you then want the money to be better spent, rather than not at all? Your motivation is to get more money for other things, your unsupported aspersions are just a thinly veiled smoke screen for greed.

As bad as things are here, we are still one of the richest countries in the world with a good standard of living. As a 1st world country we should be at least making a token effort to have a positive affect on the world as a whole.

Count Dooku

Melany Icy Sandwich wrote: »

As bad as things are here, we are still one of the richest countries in the world with a good standard of living.

Only because we borrowed too much(Ireland has highest debt per capita in the world) and continue to do it
Having credit card (in our case issued by ECB) didn't make anybody rich
We still have to pay our debts

Count Dooku

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Africa, meanwhile, is not just the same old sink for aid, there has been lots of progress, with much still to be done. Check it out:

http://www.africaneconomicoutlook.org/en/outlook/progress-towards-the-millennium-development-goals/

Then nations who have money, not only debts as us, must continue their effort to "save world"
It doesn't make any sense to borrow money from germans only in order to give somebody else
BTW,
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123758895999200083.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4209956.stm
http://www.policynetwork.net/development/media/foreign-aid-funds-corruption-new-study-reveals

therewillbe

Icepick wrote: »

Aid should not be stopped for moral and economic reasons.

It aint my problem.Look after ourselves first and then maybe.How much money do these countries need? Can someone tell me how much goes to Africa each year in Aid from the so called developed countries?:mad:

R P McMurphy

Jenroche wrote: »

It's making my blood boil. All those most vulnerable people suffering because of HSE cuts suffering at home when desperately-needed money is being taken out of the country and handed over to countries with corrupt military regimes who mis-spend it on arms. Shouldn't we be looking after our own first? :eek:

You can't substantiate that claim because it simply doesn't happen with Irish Aid

keithclancy

Absolutely bonkers.

Akin to handing out blankets to others while your freezing to death yourself.

Mena

When I see this happening on the outskirts of Dublin City Centre I'll be the first to say stop the aid.

Until then, get some perspective.

Nodin

keithclancy wrote: »

Absolutely bonkers.

Akin to handing out blankets to others while your freezing to death yourself.

Theres people starving to death here?

Fat_Fingers

I'm just waiting to hear from that great tax dodger Bono on this subject. Where is the great Bono to tell us about big and worthy cause????

jakdelad

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

I'm just waiting to hear from that great tax dodger Bono on this subject. Where is the great Bono to tell us about big and worthy cause????

you wont hear from him and when you do
he will be telliing us the ordinary irish to dig deep
while he makes millions
and refuses to pay his tax in this country............
your never told how much money goes on administration
and when the ship full of rice reach the hungry
the warlords take it and sell it to the poor
it always amazed me eiritrea and somalia
they dont have food but they have money for guns rockets and ammo

the groutch

jakdelad wrote: »

you wont hear from him and when you do
he will be telliing us the ordinary irish to dig deep
while he makes millions
and refuses to pay his tax in this country............
your never told how much money goes on administration
and when the ship full of rice reach the hungry
the warlords take it and sell it to the poor
it always amazed me eiritrea and somalia
they dont have food but they have money for guns rockets and ammo

+1 there are political issues that need to be sorted out in several African countries before we can justify the amount of money involved.
when such countries have a fully established democracy which ensure the aid is actually going to those who need it, and not just funding military regimes through the back door, I'll be first in line to make a donation
until then we need to look after our own first, because of the cutback in several aspects of the irish economy, one of which is the HSE, there ARE people needlessly dying over here

Cavehill Red

Even if we cut aid to zero, we'd still be aiding Africa. After all, what's our annual 'asylum' bill again? Plenty of Africans enjoying the beneficence of Ireland right here in Ireland.

Furthermore, as Dambisa Moyo recently pointed out, aid isn't working for Africa. It enriches corrupt dictators and their regimes, undermines indigenous industry and creates overpopulation dependent on hand-outs to survive.

It's despicable that this country is currently borrowing money at extortionate interest rates to posture and pose across the third world. One understands such posturing from the Imperial powers - they tend to have realpolitik reasons for sustaining despotic regimes in far-off places. But we are a small nation with no such interests.

For sure, we shouldn't be paying for foreign banks who gambled and lost. But nor should we be paying hundreds of millions in 'aid' which actually functions to undermine the legitimacy and sustainability of countries abroad.

keithclancy

Nodin wrote: »

Theres people starving to death here?

Donating money until you have none is bad enough.

Donating money your borrowing with interest is BONKERS.

How about you follow your own logic, get a loan for 50k and send it to Africa.

Ireland is defying the old addage, because seemingly you can get blood from a stone.

silverharp

this budget is criminal in the current circumstances. As long as money is leaking abroad due to development aid, Carbon credits and keeping dozens of pointless embessies open around the world, I cant see why the average citizen should play ball.

Count Dooku

Mena wrote: »

When I see this happening on the outskirts of Dublin City Centre I'll be the first to say stop the aid.

Until then, get some perspective.

When you will see it, it will be too late

Count Dooku

Nodin wrote: »

Theres people starving to death here?

Mother-of-two died of hypothermia after council refused to restore heating

sarumite

Count Dooku wrote: »

Mother-of-two died of hypothermia after council refused to restore heating

From article

"The council told the mother-of-two that it was impossible to restore her heating due to the vacant apartments surrounding hers and the ongoing regeneration work in the area."

I don't see the correlation between that and 'the council was broke so turned off all the heating'. Obvioulsy it shouldn't have happened and it would have been better had she been moved to a more suitable location etc, though the reason for the death wasn't a complete lack of funds. Furthermore I woud argue that a single case which is quite unique in nature is not indicative of Irish people dying.

Count Dooku

sarumite wrote: »

From article

"The council told the mother-of-two that it was impossible to restore her heating due to the vacant apartments surrounding hers and the ongoing regeneration work in the area."

I don't see the correlation between that and 'the council was broke so turned off all the heating'. Obvioulsy it shouldn't have happened and it would have been better had she been moved to a more suitable location etc, though the reason for the death wasn't a complete lack of funds. Furthermore I woud argue that a single case which is quite unique in nature is not indicative of Irish people dying.

Does it mean that we should continue to waste spend money on overseas aid until we will reach African living standards?

Nodin

Count Dooku wrote: »

Does it mean that we should continue to waste spend money on overseas aid until we will reach African living standards?

Nobody has suggested such - its not on the agenda. Why do feel the need to insert such hysterical remarks into the discussion?

sarumite

Count Dooku wrote: »

Does it mean that we should continue to waste spend money on overseas aid until we will reach African living standards?

That would be a non-sequitor and a strawman in one.

sollar

We need to be very careful where the money is going and what its used for... the population of ethiopia for example doubled since the famine of 1984. Are we pumping billions into these countries so their populations can double in an already overpopulated world.

As we have to borrow that money for aid we also pay interest on it. Continue what ever projects we are in now and stop it in 2013/2014.

jakdelad

sollar wrote: »

We need to be very careful where the money is going and what its used for... the population of ethiopia for example doubled since the famine of 1984. Are we pumping billions into these countries so their populations can double in an already overpopulated world.

As we have to borrow that money for aid we also pay interest on it. Continue what ever projects we are in now and stop it in 2013/2014.

what happens when theres no money for any sort of foreign aid
what then??
heres an idea not another euro of aid
till we get back on our own feet
how about geldof having a concert in africa for ireland
since i was a child ,it was apenny for the starving black babbys
why de fukl should we keep sending money in 2011 to africa
because they cant get their **** togeather???after decades and decades
time to keep the blanket on our own back this time
enough is enough

Zubeneschamali

jakdelad wrote: »

enough is enough

My giant SUV was repossessed, and I have to drink to excess at home instead of buying champagne cocktails in a D4 hotel!

I can't afford charity anymore (not that I ever supported handouts for wasters, shure, couldn't all those Africans invest in property and rake it in just like me!)

Max Power1

andrew wrote: »

AID isn't a waste. It provides vital money for the poorest countries in the world. Those poor people need it more than we do.

So why do we have to borrow money (at a premium) to give to these countries?

Aid should be cut. Preferably stopped completely until it is our ownmoney and not borrowed money that we are "donating"

Would you take a loan of 100,000 at punitive interest just to donate it to concern?

sarumite

Max Power1 wrote: »

So why do we have to borrow money (at a premium) to give to these countries?

Aid should be cut. Preferably stopped completely until it is our ownmoney and not borrowed money that we are "donating"

Would you take a loan of 100,000 at punitive interest just to donate it to concern?

If I was using the loan to maintain an excessive lifestyle, I don't know my €10 a month donation to Concern should be the first thing that I look at in terms of savings.

While I can certainly see the argument in reducing the amount of aid we contribute, I don't think its something that needs to be abolished.

Finnbar01

Lets cut AID to countries that have greater military spending than us.

andrew

Max Power1 wrote: »

So why do we have to borrow money (at a premium) to give to these countries?

Aid should be cut. Preferably stopped completely until it is our ownmoney and not borrowed money that we are "donating"

Would you take a loan of 100,000 at punitive interest just to donate it to concern?

I just think that the Aid budget should be one of the last things to go. Foreign aid is one of the few bits of government spending which has a high marginal product. At this stage, an extra unit of government spending has a much smaller benefit in a developed country than it does in a poor country.

Since the 50's, government spending in developed countries has increased massively; and not on productive things, like investment, but providing ever smaller benefits to smaller and smaller groups of people*. So I think there's a lot of scope, even now, for the government to cut spending and not hugely affect people's living standards, while still maintaining an aid budget which does improve people's living standards.

As far as preferring Irish people over foreign people; I can see there's an argument that the Irish government should preference Irish people since they constitute the Irish state. But we're all people at the end of the day, so I don't think that argument is particularly strong. If people somewhere desperately need food/education etc., I don't think 'they're not Irish' cuts it. Suffering ignores state borders.


*Hillman, A "Public Finance and Public Policy" (2009).

Max Power1

andrew wrote: »

I just think that the Aid budget should be one of the last things to go. Foreign aid is one of the few bits of government spending which has a high marginal product. At this stage, an extra unit of government spending has a much smaller benefit in a developed country than it does in a poor country.

Since the 50's, government spending in developed countries has increased massively; and not on productive things, like investment, but providing ever smaller benefits to smaller and smaller groups of people*. So I think there's a lot of scope, even now, for the government to cut spending and not hugely affect people's living standards, while still maintaining an aid budget which does improve people's living standards.

As far as preferring Irish people over foreign people; I can see there's an argument that the Irish government should preference Irish people since they constitute the Irish state. But we're all people at the end of the day, so I don't think that argument is particularly strong. If people somewhere desperately need food/education etc., I don't think 'they're not Irish' cuts it. Suffering ignores state borders.


*Hillman, A "Public Finance and Public Policy" (2009).

So my taxes should be increased, and services formerly paid for by those taxes cut. Whereas we are still sending aid out of the country?

Shocking. This would be first on my list of un-necessary expenditure to cut if I were ever given the opportunity.

I ask again the question, what individual borrows 100k to give to charity? Perhaps a better analogy would be an individual that is bankrupt, borrows a 40 year loan, and still donates part of the borrowed money to charity.

andrew

Max Power1 wrote: »

So my taxes should be increased, and services formerly paid for by those taxes cut. Whereas we are still sending aid out of the country?

Shocking. This would be first on my list of un-necessary expenditure to cut if I were ever given the opportunity.

I ask again the question, what individual borrows 100k to give to charity? Perhaps a better analogy would be an individual that is bankrupt, borrows a 40 year loan, and still donates part of the borrowed money to charity.

Why do you think it's unnecessary?

The situation you've given isn't analogous. More accurate would be a person who is in debt and has scope to vary their expenditure on a whole range of goods. What they will choose to cut depends on their preferences. If I were that person, I'd have a preference for my expenditure on charitable giving over other, less beneficial, expenditure, such that I wouldn't cut it.