Greek sovereignty, a thing of the past.

Jimmy Garlic

Looks like it is over for Greece.

According to Front Page article of Financial Times ”European leaders are negotiating a deal that would lead to unprecedented outside intervention in the Greek economy, including international involvement in tax collection and privatization of state assets, in exchange for new bail-out loans for Athens.”

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2011/05/30/unprecedented-european-intervention-in-greek-economy-ft/

I guess we are next.

AnonoBoy

I suppose I could get used to EU Salad Dressing and EU Ouzo.

sensibleken

we havent been independant since last November. How are people still not getting this?

Hookah

AnonoBoy wrote: »

I suppose I could get used to EU Salad Dressing and EU Ouzo.

But will you ever get used to EU sex?

cul-2008

Words cannot describe how sick to death I am of reading this sh1t day in, day out. It bemuses me how a large majority of Irish people seem to live on pessimism and aren't unhappy unless there's something negative to focus on.

Funny how when the Queen and Obama visited the bailout topics vanished. The media have a lot to answer for IMO.

Adamantium

Look as a commerce student, i can tell ya that the whole thing is a gigantic deluded fantasy that the world/ modern way of life has bought in too...... IMF/EU lending out money from people who don't have the money to begin with e.g give me 10000 euro, i'll make a 100000 out of it

Big reset button and international debt free money system is the utopia idea!



However,The sun will still rise tomorrow though.....
and we'll all still be here!

Absurdum

Naming a country after a cheesy John Travolta movie was always gonna end in tears imo.

Saila

Absurdum wrote: »

Naming a country after a cheesy John Travolta movie was always gonna end in tears imo.

yeah why was the movie called that actually

Turpentine

Absurdum wrote: »

Naming a country after a cheesy John Travolta movie was always gonna end in tears imo.

Let's just hope it doesn't turn into Battlefield Earth

RachaelVO

Just like Irish sovereignity ya mean!

skelliser

So its Globalised tax farming now?

Why not just use the Greeks as fuel cells to power articficially intelligent machines, until such time as Keanu Reeves turns up to free them!

Saila

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQR9bw-4R08

SEPT 23 1989

Imagine in a couple of years that happening here...

sbsquarepants

Ah, sure those greeks invented gayness.......they're only getting what they deserve:D

enda1

Saila wrote: »

yeah why was the movie called that actually

The type of guys (Travolta's gang) were called greasers cause of all the grease in their hair.

Hence, Grease.

Sticky_Fingers

cul-2008 wrote: »

Words cannot describe how sick to death I am of reading this sh1t day in, day out. It bemuses me how a large majority of Irish people seem to live on pessimism and aren't unhappy unless there's something negative to focus on.

Just do what a lot of others are doing in the country:
1: Take fingers and place in ears

2: Repeat Lalalalalala any time the ****e state of the economy/country is mentioned

3: Lose all bitching rights when the government decides to tax the bejesus out of you to pay for the current feck ups

Please note that the above approach can also used as a treatment of terminal cancer, cheating spouses and/or any other unfortunate event that you don't want to face up to but really should

sensibleken

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Imagine in a couple of years that happening here...

its going to happen. there is almost no question about it. the EU were already making privatisation of assets a condition of portugals bail out. But it will be portayed as each one being an isolated special case rather a consistant policy thus allowing the majority to say 'ah it wont happen here, the reason the greeks are in trouble is different to our reason'

I wont be suprised if there is a huge upsurge in nationalist politics in every country over the next few years

UglyBolloxFace

Hmm..interesting.

*Heads to Politics.ie and searches for same topic*

Kasabian

I only care that we have sold our own and not one person has been held to account for it.

I need a scapegoat otherwise I will never be happy again.

Jimmy Garlic

sensibleken wrote: »

we havent been independant since last November. How are people still not getting this?

Of course not but when they directly take control that is really the final nail.

Krusader

sensibleken wrote: »

I wont be suprised if there is a huge upsurge in nationalist politics in every country over the next few years

Which is basically one of the reasons why the EU was started. The ironing

sensibleken

Crosáidí wrote: »

Which is basically one of the reasons why the EU was started. The ironing

it was pretty much the reason it was started. To create a supra-national organisation to bolster trade and co-operation. Pulling down borders for trade and financial movement seems like a great idea, but of course as soon as any debt arises 'oh well their irish banks so irish taxpayers should pay for them'.

Cuddlesworth

sensibleken wrote: »

'ah it wont happen here, the reason the greeks are in trouble is different to our reason'

Not sure whether or not it will happen here, but the Greek situation is definitely different to ours. The Government in power through the last number of years lied constantly and cooked the books to gain entry to the EU, then continued to do so. The Greeks have never had a good economy and its now showing when the **** hit the fan.

Jimmy Garlic

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Not sure whether or not it will happen here, but the Greek situation is definitely different to ours. The Government in power through the last number of years lied constantly and cooked the books to gain entry to the EU, then continued to do so. The Greeks have never had a good economy and its now showing when the **** hit the fan.

We never had a good economy, we had a false economy built around a property pyramid scheme that was fully endorsed by the government. Successive governments here have lied constantly, they are still at it today saying there will be no more bailouts.. This time next year we will be in the same position as Greece, we are about a year behind them, maybe less.

Saila

seriously what is the point of the politics forum anymore

Son Of A Vidic

Our sovereignty is long gone, I hope the fools who voted for Lisbon can now see the reality. European Union my arsé, look at us now, we are on the verge of a complete rape of our nation by our so called 'partners'. But if there is one thing you can count on the Irish to do, it's to take it up the ass and do nothing about it.

mikom

cul-2008 wrote: »

It bemuses me how a large majority of Irish people seem to live on pessimism and aren't unhappy unless there's something negative to focus on.

Aren't unhappy unless there's something negative to focus on?

Should they be unhappy when there's nothing negative to focus on.

xsiborg

interesting that i came across this thread now actually because i was listening to an interview on the radio this morning about the notion that ireland should re-join the british commonwealth to save our ailing economy. i think the interviewee was the founder of a unionist movement party in the republic. just did a quick google there and it seems that this is becoming a popularised notion amongst some rather influential people, no less than senator david norris, who hopes to become ireland's next presidential hopeful-

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland-should-rejoin-commonwealth-says-senator-14814353.html

Republic of Ireland should rejoin Commonwealth, says senator

A politician hoping to become Ireland's next president has called for the Republic to join the Commonwealth
Senator David Norris , who plans to run in the country's presidential race, said membership would reap enormous benefits.

Speaking at the launch of the book Ireland and the Commonwealth: Towards Membership, at the Royal Irish Academy, he said that although joining the Commonwealth is unlikely to be top of the Irish political agenda, "should it be demonstrated that this is what the Irish people wish I believe that it could be accomplished with a minimum of fuss".

The majority of members are of the Commonwealth, he said, were now republics, with the Queen's position largely titular.
"New successful applicants such as Rwanda have recently joined the Commonwealth even though they were never a British colony. It would produce very useful cultural, financial and political contacts for this country and among other things would enable Irish athletes to compete in the Commonwealth Games, something which I am sure they would welcome."

The book, produced by the Reform Group, is a collection of articles, debates and speeches, generally supportive of Ireland’s membership of the Commonwealth.




The Reform Group believes that the Republic of Ireland should, as a sovereign state, cultivate its "already close relationship with the peoples of the Commonwealth by becoming members of the association".
It argues that this would not only be strategically beneficial but would be an important symbol of a new confident state "at ease with its own identity and free from the animosities of the past".




Other contributors to the book also voiced their support for the move.

Professor Robert Martin, an Honorary Fellow of Trinity College Dublin, said: "There is a natural bond between Ireland and the Asian, African and Caribbean countries of the Commonwealth. It should be strengthened and institutionalised. Commonwealth membership would be the best means of achieving these ends."

Author and journalist Mary Kenny said: "It would enlarge Ireland’s influence to join the Commonwealth – and enhance the sense of inclusivity in the Irish nation."

Jimmy Garlic

xsiborg wrote: »

interesting that i came across this thread now actually because i was listening to an interview on the radio this morning about the notion that ireland should re-join the british commonwealth to save our ailing economy. i think the interviewee was the founder of a unionist movement party in the republic. just did a quick google there and it seems that this is becoming a popularised notion amongst some rather influential people, no less than senator david norris, who hopes to become ireland's next presidential hopeful-

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland-should-rejoin-commonwealth-says-senator-14814353.html

Put it to referendum and any proposal to rejoin the commonwealth would be crushed. A few of the usual suspects would love it but the vast majority wouldn't want it. In any case our parasitic political class shouldn't be given another excuse to go on luxury 5star junkets.

twinQuins

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Our sovereignty is long gone, I hope the fools who voted for Lisbon can now see the reality[...]

How're the aborted foetuses being conscripted into an EU army to enforce a €0.81 minimum wage working out for you?

Son Of A Vidic

twinQuins wrote: »

How're the aborted foetuses being conscripted into an EU army to enforce a €0.81 minimum wage working out for you?

Could you provide some clarity to that 'unusual' post?

sensibleken

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Our sovereignty is long gone, I hope the fools who voted for Lisbon can now see the reality. European Union my arsé, look at us now, we are on the verge of a complete rape of our nation by our so called 'partners'. But if there is one thing you can count on the Irish to do, it's to take it up the ass and do nothing about it.

ffs. LISBON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!

humanji

In fairness though, Greece is so corrupt it makes Charles Haughey look honest. They desperately need outside influence to sort their country out because there's very few there who want to do it. We're not that far gone yet.

dlofnep

twinQuins wrote: »

How're the aborted foetuses being conscripted into an EU army to enforce a €0.81 minimum wage working out for you?

Nice try - that wasn't the main argument against the Lisbon treaty and was mostly peddled by Cóir. The main argument was that the EU was becoming too involved in national affairs, and that we were yielding too much power to Brussels. It was a valid concern, and it's now being realised.

The Irish people are a bunch of cowardly, spineless hacks. They sat back while our Government pushed private debt onto their shoulders, and beyond a bit of moaning - did **** all to stop it.

It's time we rise up, and reclaim our Republic.

Jimmy Garlic

humanji wrote: »

In fairness though, Greece is so corrupt it makes Charles Haughey look honest. They desperately need outside influence to sort their country out because there's very few there who want to do it. We're not that far gone yet.

You think the 'outside influence' is interested in sorting out Greece?.

twinQuins

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Could you provide some clarity to that 'unusual' post?

As I recall such tripe was peddled alongside the other "No" ****e of "we're giving up our sovereignty!!!"

As I don't see any of the former happening I'm rather reticent to buy into the latter. Also, I don't see any of the latter happening either.

Although I'd be willing to at least listen if anyone can point out how this is in any way related to the Lisbon Treaty.

dlofnep

twinQuins wrote: »

As I recall such tripe was peddled alongside the other "No" ****e of "we're giving up our sovereignty!!!"

As I don't see any of the former happening I'm rather reticent to buy into the latter. Also, I don't see any of the latter happening either.

Although I'd be willing to at least listen if anyone can point out how this is in any way related to the Lisbon Treaty.

Oh **** off and open your eyes for christ's sake. Our sovereignty is well and truly eroded. Our Government was forced into accepting an unfair bailout. The Irish people are shouldering private debt for the sake of the Eurozone. The EU is continuously trying to badger the Irish Government into reducing our corporation tax rates. Our national assets are being sold.

The naivety on here sometimes pisses me right off.

sensibleken

twinQuins wrote: »

As I recall such tripe was peddled alongside the other "No" ****e of "we're giving up our sovereignty!!!"

As I don't see any of the former happening I'm rather reticent to buy into the latter. Also, I don't see any of the latter happening either.

Although I'd be willing to at least listen if anyone can point out how this is in any way related to the Lisbon Treaty.

because they gave us a garuntee over our corporation tax and now their going after it.

just like i did a rain dance and 2 years later it rained.

and something about competencies!!! rabble!

sensibleken

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh **** off and open your eyes for christ's sake. Our sovereignty is well and truly eroded. Our Government was forced into accepting an unfair bailout. The Irish people are shouldering private debt for the sake of the Eurozone. The EU is continuously trying to badger the Irish Government into reducing our corporation tax rates. Our national assets are being sold.

The naivety on here sometimes pisses me right off.

and what has any of it to do with Lisbon? what parts of lisbon had anything to do with it?

Or was it that this is more to do with the fact that we are out of teh bond markets and can only borrow at the barrel of a gun.

its not naivety, it was actually bothering to learn the treaty. whats going on is shít but nothing to do with lisbon

Son Of A Vidic

sensibleken wrote: »

ffs. LISBON HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS!

Has it not? Where have you been? How short is your memory? All the the pro-Lisbon parties spun the same búllshít mantra - " Voting yes will shorten the recession.", "Voting yes will shorten our economic pain. ", " Voting Yes is good for business ", "Vote Yes for jobs". Lies and totally delusional búllshít.

Here are some reminders for you.

http://omg.wthax.org/A_campaign_poster_urging__001_1.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/Fianna_Fail_VOTE_YES_TO_LISBON_FOR_JOBS.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/reganyes1.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/3913110009_ee82cbee72_z.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/brian_lenihan_campa_675293c.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/fine_Gael.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/7952irishreferendum.jpg

sensibleken

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Has it not? Where have you been? How short is your memory? All the the pro-Lisbon parties spun the same búllshít mantra - " Voting yes will shorten the recession.", "Voting yes will shorten our economic pain. ", " Voting Yes is good for business ", "Vote Yes for jobs". Lies and totally delusional búllshít.

Here are some reminders for you.

http://omg.wthax.org/A_campaign_poster_urging__001_1.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/Fianna_Fail_VOTE_YES_TO_LISBON_FOR_JOBS.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/reganyes1.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/3913110009_ee82cbee72_z.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/brian_lenihan_campa_675293c.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/fine_Gael.jpg
http://omg.wthax.org/7952irishreferendum.jpg

No it has nothing to do with it. I dont care what pro posters were saying, no side were lying just as much. It was a referendum, YOU were the legislator, it was YOUR responsibility to educate yourself as to teh pro's and cons. its not like there wasnt enough debate

Show me what in the lisbon treaty contributed to what is going on at the moment

Son Of A Vidic

twinQuins wrote: »

As I recall such tripe was peddled alongside the other "No" ****e of "we're giving up our sovereignty!!!"

As I don't see any of the former happening I'm rather reticent to buy into the latter. Also, I don't see any of the latter happening either.

Amazing, you keep believing that if it works for you. But you can only keep your head in the sand for so long. This little country lost it's financial and economic sovereignty last November when the IMF and EU took control. The IMF was back last month conducting their audit to keep us in line. Or has all this escaped you?

Son Of A Vidic

sensibleken wrote: »

No it has nothing to do with it. I dont care what pro posters were saying, no side were lying just as much. It was a referendum, YOU were the legislator, it was YOUR responsibility to educate yourself as to teh pro's and cons. its not like there wasnt enough debate

Show me what in the lisbon treaty contributed to what is going on at the moment

I take it you haven't examined those links properly? So read the message on those posters and consider what they are conveying. These posters deliver a powerful message to the people, but don't fixate on them. They were used by me to illustrate the búllshít that was peddled to the people.

Lisbon has not been good for jobs, Lisbon has not been good for growth, Lisbon has not improved our prospects, ect, ect. I can only base this opinion on the political propaganda used and this is clearly written on those posters links.

The relevance to Lisbon on our current economic woes is clear now surely? It hasn't delivered on any of the wonderful promises that were made. Merkel makes remarks about Ireland, our borrowing interest rates soars and we end up being totally unable to borrow on the Bond markets. The end result is a bail out, financial imprisonment and the Irish taxpayer must cover the losses of the German and French banks. Hey, but that's what friends are for I suppose.

K-9

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh **** off and open your eyes for christ's sake. Our sovereignty is well and truly eroded. Our Government was forced into accepting an unfair bailout. The Irish people are shouldering private debt for the sake of the Eurozone. The EU is continuously trying to badger the Irish Government into reducing our corporation tax rates. Our national assets are being sold.

The naivety on here sometimes pisses me right off.

The problem was the Irish Government chose an unprecedented bank guarantee a year before the bail out. It was always going to be near impossible to back away from it from then on.

sensibleken

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I take it you haven't examined those links properly? So read the message on those posters and consider what they are conveying. These posters deliver a powerful message to the people, but don't fixate on them. They were used by me to illustrate the búllshít that was peddled to the people.

Lisbon has not been good for jobs, Lisbon has not been good for growth, Lisbon has not improved our prospects, ect, ect. I can only base this opinion on the political propaganda used and this is clearly written on those posters links.

The relevance to Lisbon on our current economic woes is clear now surely? It hasn't delivered on any of the wonderful promises that were made. Merkel makes remarks about Ireland, our borrowing interest rates soars and we end up being totally unable to borrow on the Bond markets. The end result is a bail out, financial imprisonment and the Irish taxpayer must cover the losses of the German and French banks. Hey, but that's what friends are for I suppose.

so basically your answer is no, you can't say how Lisbon has contributed to our situation.

If you based your opinion on what one set of posters says then thats up to you. Nothing in it had anything to do with bailouts, interest rates, banking or any of the other stuff that caused this.

what you are saying is the irish voter is to blame for the situation, when it is simply not the case. It is the idea that we were complicit which gives ammo to those who say we as taxpayers should shoulder the burden

No. If your going to persist on this, tell me what in the treaty (articles) has affected the situation were in.

twinQuins

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh **** off and open your eyes for christ's sake.[...]

Cute, the calling card of every crackpot conspiracy theorist.

As for the rest... I'm still not seeing anything that points to a link (however tenuous) between the Lisbon Treaty and erosion of Irish sovereignty.

dizzywizlw

There's this thing called globalisation and it kinda made it practically impossible for small countries to retain 'economic sovereignty' like that economic sovereignty that we had when we were pegged to the pound, oh wait...

People who peddle economic sovereignty have no concept of reality and more than likely believe that some sort of fiscal autarky is actually possible. Seriously, cop on.

Greece deserves everything they get, we had a boom and a huge badly handled bust, they take the absolute piddle with the way their welfare state and grey economy work.

Son Of A Vidic

sensibleken wrote: »

so basically your answer is no, you can't say how Lisbon has contributed to our situation.

If you based your opinion on what one set of posters says then thats up to you. Nothing in it had anything to do with bailouts, interest rates, banking or any of the other stuff that caused this.

Your're fixating on posters again, it's the message they 'peddled'. Your see you keep missing the core principle at play here, so I'll spell it out for you again. Lisbon was supposed to deliver economic growth, progress and prosperity. Yet we have been flushed down the economic toilet, so can you explain why this has happened? Where have these promises gone?

sensibleken wrote: »

what you are saying is the irish voter is to blame for the situation, when it is simply not the case. It is the idea that we were complicit which gives ammo to those who say we as taxpayers should shoulder the burden

Where in any of my posts did I apportion blame on the Irish voter? I mentioned in my first post that some people foolishly voted Yes. So how did you manage to translate this into blame? We all know who is responsible for this mess and it's not the ordinary taxpayer.

sensibleken wrote: »

No. If your going to persist on this, tell me what in the treaty (articles) has affected the situation were in.

Examine what? The evidence is all around you, our country is on it's knees so where are the benefits promised by a Lisbon Yes vote? Why have our so called partners increased our pain? But it really says it all when the IMF have been a bit more sympathetic to us that our European 'partners'.

Johro

Ireland lost sovereignty when she joined the European Union. So did the other European nations. The ultimate aim has always been the establishment of a Federal State, the 'United States of Europe', to rival the US and Asia. Ya might as well get used to it.

brokenhinge

The Greeks?

They invented gayness!

sensibleken

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Your're fixating on posters again, it's the message they 'peddled'. Your see you keep missing the core principle at play here, so I'll spell it out for you again. Lisbon was supposed to deliver economic growth, progress and prosperity. Yet we have been flushed down the economic toilet, so can you explain why this has happened? Where have these promises gone?'.

you were promised what was in the treaty which was nothing to do with bailouts, rescues. It was a reform treaty. If you werent bothered to read it then you have nobody to blame but yourself

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Where in any of my posts did I apportion blame on the Irish voter? I mentioned in my first post that some people foolishly voted Yes. So how did you manage to translate this into blame? We all know who is responsible for this mess and it's not the ordinary taxpayer.

you blamed the irish voter when you brought lisbon into it as some sort of cause of whats going on. a claim you have declined to back up

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Examine what? The evidence is all around you, our country is on it's knees so where are the benefits promised by a Lisbon Yes vote? Why have our so called partners increased our pain? But it really says it all when the IMF have been a bit more sympathetic to us that our European 'partners'.

the benifits were qmv, subsidiarity, increased powers to parliament and increased oversight from the dail on EU legislation.

Now Im going to ask you one last time because this is the fourth time ive asked and you still have not answered it.

What articles in Lisbon contributed to the mess we are in now?