Does online play affect your offline game?

Sairus

I'm basically lifting this from an article Speedhaak posted on Mordor-Mashup, but I'm curious to see what all of your opinions are on the subject.

I've seen a few people complain of this when they show up to tournaments for the first time, or even just after a prolonged hiatus from local play. Combos and links that they can hit reliably online just won't come out when playing face to face games.
I've personally never had much of an issue with this, but my execution is very sloppy as it is and thus it'd be harder to notice if the slight, or often very noticable lag inherent to online gaming is messing up the timing of my inputs.

Doctor DooM

It does. Massively.

I guess you mightn't notice so much if you don't have someone around to play locally all the time, but after playing SF with AJ for an hour or two and then going online, the difference is huge. You're reduced to the most siple tactics as your timing just stops working.

Also, if you spend too much time online, you do things which don't work offline (ex sonic boom is nearly unblockable for me online, as is ex neckbreaker and hazan shu). It makes you reliant on tactics which might not work.

That said, Hound, Cog and Stev0 all learned online so it'd be wrong to say you can't go down that route to get better.

chopperbyrne

Doctor DooM wrote: »

That said, Hound, Cog and Stev0 all learned online so it'd be wrong to say you can't go down that route to get better.

He learned offline with the greatest Street Fighter of all time.

Speedhaak

Well I think you know where I stand on this Sai after my dismal performance on sat. Then again I guess it depends on what character you're playing. I won't speak for other Bison players but BnB's like c.lk x3 (or 4, whatever number you like) into scissors was completely different in terms of timing for me on Sat, because obviously the lag online impedes/amplifies your ability to get it out comfortably. Still, onwards we go. Will have to spend more time in the lab I guess...

UberPrinny_Baal

Sairus wrote: »

I've personally never had much of an issue with this, but my execution is very sloppy

Pretty much the same for me.

Excluding XGC casuals, I have no avenue for playing anyone offline, so online is the only way for me to get fight experience at home.

Owwmykneecap

I couldn't hit combos for the life of me at the last inferno, I'm way out of practice but still, I hit them no problem at home, on or offline on the crt.

Fergus_

I think it does have quite the effect.

I play pretty much only online with the very very odd casuals meetup every 1-2 months, and some infernos.

At inferno/casuals, I don't know if it was nerves or online/offline switch or what but I couldn't hit a lot of combos. That being said, I spend a lot of time in training mode drilling the combos so could be nerves.

But there is a definite difference.

Ramza

Kinda, but not much imo

I played loads of 3s online (pretty much got all my MU experience and game experience online) when it got emulated and it took me a while to adjust to the lag. Offline in training I could drill combos etc fine, but after a session it would take me a while to revert. Some of my first ever offline 3s games were great because I didn't have the lag issue to deal with it and just found it a lot better in general

With SFIV I don't play much offline but I don't find it messes with my execution as much. I can hit stuff in training fine and online, the connections are usually quite good

All in all I usually only find after a long offline time going online is weird at first. Only takes a bit to adjust. Maybe it's just me, I don't find it hard

mackg

There is definitely a difference, like doom said I think that moves like ibuki neckbreaker seem unblockable on reaction online. what im gonna do before tournaments from now on is not play online the night before and try and get down as early as possible on the day to play casuals and get in the swing of it.

bush

Online play makes you godlike

Ken B

Personally I, find the lag on some of those monitors in tournaments to be more uncircumnavigable than any regular online interference.

Doctor DooM

Ken B wrote: »

Personally I, find the lag on some of those monitors in tournaments to be more uncircumnavigable than any regular online interference.

The monitors we use are lagless. That's why we chose them, and why they're used at evo.

EDIT: I won't speak to defend XGC though, there's definitely some underwater stuff going on there.

The Hound

Ya get match up knowledge online which is the most important part.
Going from online to XGC... XGC is worst than playing someone from Ireland with a good connection

bush

Are thos really the sam montiors user at evo? I think they are fine but ive people say they had problems with them.

Doctor DooM

The Hound wrote: »

Ya get match up knowledge online which is the most important part.
Going from online to XGC... XGC is worst than playing someone from Ireland with a good connection

*azza does slide*
*Doom is holding down back, does reversal flash kick*
*Somehow azza blocks*
*Doom blocks scissor kick as punish*
*congratulate each other on pro play*

Doctor DooM

bush wrote: »

Are thos really the sam montiors user at evo? I think they are fine but ive people say they had problems with them.

So I am told.

When they've been set up right they feel perfect to me.

The Hound

Ye I think some of the montors at the last inferno were laggy. So many people trying reversals and getting nothing.
I remember playing Azza and he tried wake up ex pc twice and got hit instead. I could hear him do the input an all, eh' was only obvious he'd do wake up ex pc. Cost him the game. S**t like that happened a numerous amount of times to people.

Ramza

I'm convinced that blanka slide, ibuki neck breaker and guile ex boom are all unblockable online

Doctor DooM

Ramza wrote: »

I'm convinced that blanka slide, ibuki neck breaker and guile ex boom are all unblockable online

Ex boom is pretty much unblockable on reaction under half screen anyway, in general.

UberPrinny_Baal

Ramza wrote: »

I'm convinced that blanka slide, ibuki neck breaker and guile ex boom are all unblockable online

Ken's LP DP into LP DP is unpunishable as well

blag

The Hound wrote: »

Ye I think some of the montors at the last inferno were laggy. So many people trying reversals and getting nothing.
I remember playing Azza and he tried wake up ex pc twice and got hit instead. I could hear him do the input an all, eh' was only obvious he'd do wake up ex pc. Cost him the game. S**t like that happened a numerous amount of times to people.

I think the Inferno monitors are almost perfect, when you're used to playing with delay if messes up reversal timing a lot.

First time I played on those new monitors in Ferbuary it took Cobelcog, Tetly and I a load of casuals to get a feel for them, Dreddy played around with a few settings until they were set up right.

Dreddybajs

Yeah I think the Inferno monitors are fine as well.

To be honest I think some people are just happy to have supposed monitor lag as an excuse when they mess stuff up.

Ken B

I don't get it personally....

At home, on my couch, with my 42" Bravia, I never have a problem doing any move. At the inferno, I can't barely perform any moves at all. It could be aspect ratio, definition, distance to monitor etc, I'm not sure.

Also, I would like to point out that I'm not talking about in matches(with nerves, pressure etc.), but on training mode, on the odd occasion that I've had the chance to use it.


PS: Before anyone comes up with crapola buzzwords such as: 'Man up....' 'live with it...' 'it's the same for everyone..' etc. please take into account that I've never once mentioned lag to anyone, during an inferno or otherwise..And I've most certainly never used lag as an excuse for losing(even online).

erinsoup

in SF4's case, online and offline are completely different games. At least in this part of the world.

Doctor DooM

Ken B wrote: »

I don't get it personally....

At home, on my couch, with my 42" Bravia, I never have a problem doing any move. At the inferno, I can't barely perform any moves at all. It could be aspect ratio, definition, distance to monitor etc, I'm not sure.

Also, I would like to point out that I'm not talking about in matches(with nerves, pressure etc.), but on training mode, on the odd occasion that I've had the chance to use it.

The likely reason is then that your bravia lags...

Azza

The Inferno monitors are not the same as the the monitors used at Evo. Evo monitors are Alienware branded 22" monitors. Quite expensive.

The inferno monitors are miles better than the crap Walker TV's at the XGC. But the still feel laggy too me.

From watching Cobel and Hound playing at Inferno . Even when they win they still seem to be playing considerable worse than they do online. The amount of dropped combo's and missed punishers is way higher than when I play them online.

I feel the same way myself. I can't do even the simplest combo's when I playing at either Inferno or XGC (XGC is way worse). Find it immenesly frustrating.

Also playing online you have a much much larger player base and thus you have a higher standard of player to play against.

The only viable way to level up at any game is to play consistently and play high level players. Its not enough to read up on match ups and say yeah I understand what I need to do. You have to practise consistently to get stuff like option selections down. You have to discover the exception to general rules yourself so you remember them (i.e option select A beats reversal B 90% of the time except under these exact conditions). If your interested in leveling up, playing once a week at casuals with half a dozen players even if they are quite good isn't going cut it, particularly on those awful awful awful monitors at the XGC. Playing online isn't perfect but generally you can get decent games with most European countries.

Also I don't believe in this online tactics only crap. Sounds like excuse making to me. You just gotta except your not going win ever match even when your considerable better than your opponent, your going get caught out with random crap or play bad ever now and then or for a few matches in a row. Your opponent maybe beating you with stupid repeatable crap, you just gotta refocus on countering it.

Dreddybajs

Azza wrote: »

The inferno monitors are miles better than the crap Walker TV's at the XGC. But the still feel laggy too me.

From watching Cobel and Hound playing at Inferno . Even when they win they still seem to be playing considerable worse than they do online. The amount of dropped combo's and missed punishers is way higher than when I play them online.

You're mad if you think TV lag is the main reason for people playing differently at a tournament than casual matches on XBL.

Azza

No I'm not.

Hound gets nervous and Cobels gets Salty but even before that happens they are still not playing as good as they do at home. They are so far ahead of most players at Inferno it doesn't matter too much.

Lag what causes me to miss 90% of my combo's at Inferno. I don't have the best timing with combo's at home but I'd be landing them 75-80% at home at least.

Ken B

Ken B wrote: »

I don't get it personally....


PS: Before anyone comes up with crapola buzzwords such as: 'Man up....' 'live with it...' 'it's the same for everyone..' etc. please take into account that I've never once mentioned lag to anyone, during an inferno or otherwise..And I've most certainly never used lag as an excuse for losing(even online).

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The likely reason is then that your bravia lags...

Let's leave lag out of this...... :cool:

Owwmykneecap

All monitors lag. There are no lagless monitors.

Also one of the inferno monitors is set up differently than the others, and has borders.

Also also, no human (even chunkis) is a reliable judge of lag, on the lower ends of the scale

stev0knev022

Online is king. Live play is way too laggy to take srsly.

Srsly tho i feel a much greater disconnect between what im trying to do and what is actually happening live than online, i guess because i'm way more used to net play, i'd imagine people like dreddy would feel the exact opposite tho.

Doctor DooM

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

All monitors lag. There are no lagless monitors.

Also one of the inferno monitors is set up differently than the others, and has borders.

Also also, no human (even chunkis) is a reliable judge of lag, on the lower ends of the scale

I'll wait for Orim on this but if I recall rock band was used to test our monitors and they're within the 1 frame range they need to be.

(That or someone read a test on tinterweb to that effect).

You're correct of course- even CRT have minimal lag in general and some has significant.

I also vaguely recall the XGC screens giving two frames of lag when checked?

UberPrinny_Baal

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'll wait for Orim on this but if I recall rock band was used to test our monitors and they're within the 1 frame range they need to be.

This almost seems like it could spin off into it's own topic, but how do you use Rockband to test TV lag?

Also can you use that to fix SF, since I know Rockband either applies or removes delay to the input display?

bush

Was it tested with rock band by manually tapping the button in time or was it done with rock band 2 guitar? I dont think tapping it manuay is reliable at all.

Orim

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

This almost seems like it could spin off into it's own topic, but how do you use Rockband to test TV lag?

Also can you use that to fix SF, since I know Rockband either applies or removes delay to the input display?

The Rockband 2 guitar has a scanner which checks for input lag.

You can also do it manually but I wouldn't rate this at all. It can give a decent baseline but for deciding purchases, I'd rather a more concrete test.

Owwmykneecap wrote: »

All monitors lag. There are no lagless monitors.

Also one of the inferno monitors is set up differently than the others, and has borders.

Also also, no human (even chunkis) is a reliable judge of lag, on the lower ends of the scale

There are lagless LCDs (actually I can't remember if they are LCDs). However they are incredibly expensive.

Realistically getting under 5ms is the best any tournament can hope for. It's just not feasible to get lower then that, unless someone wins the euromillions and donates a shed load of cash. I include EVO in this as those alienware are not lagless.

I'm not 100% on the set up of the monitors. I know that the resolution on the Xbox has to be set every time. I'll make sure they're all checked before the EVO qualifiers.

Yes, no one can see lag that is under approx 10 - 12ms. Under approx 7ms it shouldn't affect the game in anyway either.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I'll wait for Orim on this but if I recall rock band was used to test our monitors and they're within the 1 frame range they need to be.

(That or someone read a test on tinterweb to that effect).

You're correct of course- even CRT have minimal lag in general and some has significant.

I also vaguely recall the XGC screens giving two frames of lag when checked?

I decided on the monitors we have now based on videos and websites showing CRT tests which claimed that it had on average 7ms of input delay. Which should be good enough. It's also the lowest I could with relatively reliable results (alliteration is fun) and a decent price.

CRTs in general don't have input delay but it is possible.

Yes when tested the XGC screens gave just under 2 frames of lag.

K.O.Kiki

The New Definitive HDTV Lag FAQ <- SRK link

RESPONSE TIME HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LAG.

Why do games lag on HDTVs?

There are two different reasons for this, and either one or both can contribute to the overall delay on an HDTV.

A] Scaling/Deinterlacing: The HDTV is fed a signal different from its native resolution. The HDTV experiences a processing delay while scaling the signal (example: 480i signal from PS2 to 1080p HDTV).
B] Postprocessing: Postprocessing consists of additional features on HDTVs to clean up or "improve" the visual picture quality of images (example: 1080p signal from PS3 to 1080p Samsung HDTV still has lag).

The Best Solution: Commercial-grade HDTV Displays

What if there were an HDTV that had both lightning-fast scaling as well as no unnecessary and bloated postprocessing?

Guess what: they're here. They're just not marketed towards you and me. They are marketed towards Emergency Centers, Network Operations Centers, hospitals, airports, and other businesses requiring accurate, up-to-the-millisecond digital signage under a 24x7 environment. To see more, Google "digital signage" or similar. The same type of monitors are used in HD arcade cabinets, which is why they don't lag.

While these sets do not typically include HDTV tuners (and thus, are not officially sold as televisions), 95% of you HDTV watchers probably have a box from your cable company that does this already. Just hook it up through Component/DVI/HDMI and you're ready to roll.

Better yet, Commercial-grade HDTVs do not have ridiculous branding all over the monitor bezel like your typical Sharp, Samsung, or Sony. They are simplistic and classy, like something you'd see in a movie. This is just my opinion, but I think that the 2008 HDTV models from these companies have looked hideous; definitely not something I'd want to mount on my wall.

Misty Chaos

Its the reason I make sure I get at least a half hours casuals in before I play at any tournament I'm in, just to get used to the difference between my set up at home, where I play online and when I play in an offline environment.

Even at home, I've taken as many steps as I could to ensure an as lag free experience as possible, such as playing through the VGA connection of my TV. However, I still play on wireless with I know is causing lag but running a cable from the router to the xbox would be extremely awkward as its upstairs and the router is downstairs.

I just make the best with what I have but like I said, I always go for casuals before a tournament.