Why bother praying if....

Splendour

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

Quo Vadis

Now as for not asking God for anything in prayer ?, of course it's not about asking him for material things, but you should ask him for spiritual strength, an increase in faith and hope etc

Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.” Matthew 21:21-22

God always answers our prayers if what we faithfully ask for is in our own good long term spirtual interests, but often he works in mysterious ways by perhaps not opening the door we prayed for, but another one.

Matthew 7 is an amazing Chapter in the bible

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! " - Matthew 7:7-11

Good discussion on it here that might help you ;

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=385521

In summary you should definitely ask God for help with spiritual matters.

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

God always answers our prayers if what we faithfully ask is in our own good long term interests, but often he works in mysterious ways by perhaps not opening the door we prayed for, but another one.

So basically, it's like the lotto;He may answer or He may not. E.g.I don't get how God doesn't answer prayers for a marriage to be saved or a drug addict to quit drugs. I don't understand why that would not be God's will?!!

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

Perhaps the easy answer is that we pray (or should attempt to pray) for God's intentions. So more of a case of "Father, if you are willing..".

While I haven't read the article myself yet (I've heard him talk about it a number of times), maybe we would both benefit from NT Wright's thoughts on the meaning behind the Lord's Prayer.

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Perhaps the easy answer is that we pray (or should attempt to pray) for God's intentions. So more of a case of "Father, if you are willing..".

While I haven't read the article myself yet (I've heard him talk about it a number of times), maybe we would both benefit from NT Wright's thoughts on the meaning behind the Lord's Prayer.

Jesus' words 'Father if you are willing' are the same as 'They will be done' - so Jesus knew that God could change things unless He (God) was willing but obviously (God) chose not to. If God didn't change the situation for Jesus, after he prayed, what chance have the rest of us got?! Sorry Fanny but the Wright Christian link didn't shed much light on this for me...

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

So basically, it's like the lotto;He may answer or He may not. E.g.I don't get how God doesn't answer prayers for a marriage to be saved or a drug addict to quit drugs. I don't understand why that would not be God's will?!!

Why would it be like the lotto ? Material things are not spritual ones.
God doesn't interfere with mans free will, heaven on earth would be pointless, if one party wants to quit marriage or do drugs, God's not going to stop them.

Jesus also prayed : "Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Mark 14:36 NIV

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

If God didn't change the situation for Jesus, after he prayed, what chance have the rest of us got?

How do you know he didn't change the situation in some way ?

strobe

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Perhaps the easy answer is that we pray (or should attempt to pray) for God's intentions.

'Cause otherwise God's intentions may not be realised?

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Why would it be like the lotto ? Material things are not spritual ones.
God doesn't interfere with mans free will, heaven on earth would be pointless, if one party wants to quit marriage or do drugs, God's not going to stop them.

Jesus also prayed : "Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.” Mark 14:36 NIV

If one partner of a marriage really wants the marriage to survive and the other partner doesn't - the Christian has no choice in this case. How can this be God's will? In a case such as this then it is God's will that the marriage break up? With regards to the drug issue- I was talking with a 'saved/reformed' drug addict who believes that God 'all things work together for those who love God'. I just don't get how God can 'work together for good' with the child of a drug addict or a child of an abusive marriage...

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

How do you know he didn't change the situation in some way ?

Maybe he did but I would like to think God would've recorded it in the bible if he had done so.

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

So basically, it's like the lotto;He may answer or He may not. E.g.I don't get how God doesn't answer prayers for a marriage to be saved or a drug addict to quit drugs. I don't understand why that would not be God's will?!!

I think that is a poor analogy, Splendour. The lotto depends upon a random process. The whole point of prayer is that it is dependent upon the will of an intentional being, not chance.

I think the Bible has numerous examples written by people who seemingly received no answer to prayer. Read the Psalms. Why are they not answered? I don't know, and I don't suspect I ever will because I don't know the mind of God.

However, I wonder if many of us (myself included) have a slightly self-centred perspective on prayer. In this 20-minute talk Peter Kreeft attempts to pull back from the idea that prayer is "a thing you do to get stuff" and focus on the bigger idea that "prayer is a thing you do to grow spiritually". Additionally, this link might provide some sort of an answer.

Splendour

strobe wrote: »

'Cause otherwise God's intentions may not be realised?

So by your reckoning, God's intentions in some cases are for marriages' to break up or for those drug addicts praying to get out of the habit should stay on drugs? (Having said that, I appreciate that drug addicts have a choice). Please enlighten me as to how God's intention's are realised in these cases?

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

So by your reckoning, God's intentions in some cases are for marriages' to break up or for those drug addicts praying to get out of the habit should stay on drugs? (Having said that, I appreciate that drug addicts have a choice). Please enlighten me as to how God's intention's are realised in these cases?

Strobe is an atheist. I gather that he was asking a question, rather than making a statement


@ Strobe - I don't pretend to know the answer. One one hand, Christians operate off the axiom that God ultimately can't be thwarted. Hence we talk about the "new heavens and new earth". In this regard, I think there are inevitabilities. On the other hand - and I suspect that Calvinists would disagree - God might have intentions for us that depend upon our willing participation. If we aren't willing then they don't happen.

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I think that is a poor analogy, Splendour. The lotto depends upon a random process. The whole point of prayer is that it is dependent upon the will of an intentional being, not chance.

I think the Bible has numerous examples written by people who seemingly received no answer to prayer. Read the Psalms. Why are they not answered? I don't know, and I don't suspect I ever will because I don't know the mind of God.

However, I wonder if many of us (myself included) have a slightly self-centred perspective on prayer. In this 20-minute talk Peter Kreeft attempts to pull back from the idea that prayer is "a thing you do to get stuff" and focus on the bigger idea that "prayer is a thing you do to grow spiritually". Additionally, this link might provide some sort of an answer.

Ok, let's take the 'Job' scenario then. Job was a faithful servant of God and no matter what anyone said to him, he still held to his belief in God through all his sickness and grief. So why did God give him back 'stuff' instead of treating him like a normal 'joe soap' so we could all learn from this book?

Also, it is one thing to say pray to grow spiritually but try sell that to kids who are going through c**p due to sickness/marriage breakdown/drugs etc...

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

Jesus' words 'Father if you are willing' are the same as 'They will be done' - so Jesus knew that God could change things unless He (God) was willing but obviously (God) chose not to. If God didn't change the situation for Jesus, after he prayed, what chance have the rest of us got?! Sorry Fanny but the Wright Christian link didn't shed much light on this for me...

It wasn't intended as a specific answer Rather just a reflection upon the prayer as a whole.

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

Maybe he did but I would like to think God would've recorded it in the bible if he had done so.

Why would the Gospels give us, or even be able to give us, an account of everying thought God the Father had ?

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

Also, it is one thing to say pray to grow spiritually but try sell that to kids who are going through c**p due to sickness/marriage breakdown/drugs etc...

And why do you think God caused these things rather than the sinful free will of man ?

Why do you want heaven on earth, and what good would it be, and what would we learn ?

This short life is a test for the next life which is eternal.

Jesus taught us that when we suffer for mans sins he suffers along with us, whenever you pray the stations of the cross it makes that clear.

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Why would the Gospels give us, or even be able to give us, an account of everying thought God the Father had ?

To give us answers to life's difficulties so we would know how to handle them, just as an earthly father would/should give guidance to their children.

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It wasn't intended as a specific answer Rather just a reflection upon the prayer as a whole.

Thanks Fanny, so I gather you're as lost as I am in this area...

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

To give us answers to life's difficulties so we would know how to handle them, just as an earthly father would/should give guidance to their children.

All of life’s difficulties, trials and tribulations are in the Bible.
We're given the answers for an awful lot, but some things you have to figure out and learn from experience yourself, that’s the point of living this life.

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

And why do you think God caused these things rather than the sinful free will of man ?

Why do you want heaven on earth, and what good would it be, and what would we learn ?

This short life is a test for the next life which is eternal.

Jesus taught us that when we suffer for mans sins he suffers along with us, whenever you pray the stations of the cross it makes that clear.

I get all of that but it doesn't answer m question WHAT IS THE POINT OF PRAYING if s**t is gonna happen anyway?!

I agree, to some extent, that this life is a test for the next life in that if we trust in Jesus we go to Heaven but that does not answer my original question as to why bother praying for intentions on earth if God's will is gonna be done anyway?!

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

All of life’s difficulties, trials and tribulations are in the Bible.
We're given the answers for an awful lot, but some things you have to figure out and learn from experience yourself, that’s the point of living this life.

So basically, you've just dismissed God and the bible here...

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

I get all of that but it doesn't answer m question WHAT IS THE POINT OF PRAYING if s**t is gonna happen anyway?!

I agree, to some extent, that this life is a test for the next life in that if we trust in Jesus we go to Heaven but that does not answer my original question as to why bother praying for intentions on earth if God's will is gonna be done anyway?!

Well for starters if you don't have the faith to ask for spiritual graces, you may not receive them : "give us each day our daily bread" , "forgive us our trespasses" , "lead us not into temptation" , "deliver us from evil"

Splendour wrote: »

So basically, you've just dismissed God and the bible here...

Maybe you can explain how you arrived at that strawman argument ?

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

Also, it is one thing to say pray to grow spiritually but try sell that to kids who are going through c**p due to sickness/marriage breakdown/drugs etc...

I say this because I can speak from some degree of experience, but I would have thought that spiritual healing and grow is exactly what the husband and wife should be seeking to do if they want to try to repair their relationship. If one considers marriage to be a sacred union before God then spiritual healing and growth are essential because there has been a break in vows which are grounded in God. That is to say, they are spiritual in nature. That the kids get hurt is inevitable given the nature of a marriage breakdown (which, let's face it, is often preceded by some sort of infidelity). The answer to prayer might just be that in x amount of years the relationship is healed between the spouses and between their children. Given the complexities of our personal interactions, I can't see how one could expect anything more. It ain't quick or pretty.

I suspect that if one is expecting miracles, then one will be disappointed. They are by definition rare events.

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

Well for starters if you don't have the faith to ask for spiritual graces, you may not receive them : "give us each day our daily bread" , "forgive us our trespasses" , "lead us not into temptation" , "deliver us from evil"



Maybe you can explain how you arrived at that strawman argument ?

There was a woman who had so much faith that she was cured by merely touching Jesus' garments. She had faith which was obviously bigger than a mustard seed-but, we don't know how bigger. Now a Christian may have faith the size of a mustard seed and be healed and a Christian may have faith the size of a mountain and not be healed-they both might pray like the clappers and one gets healed-the other doesn't-if so, what's the point in praying? Am not trying to be antagonistic but trying to understand...

Can't do double quotes (though Fanny did explain it to me some time ago :rolleyes: ) but my 'strawman' argument as you see it, comes form you saying that we have to figure some things out ourselves in life. Sorry, but as a Christian, I would like to think that all life difficulties are answered in the bible-else we may as well make up our own rules!

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I say this because I can speak from some degree of experience, but I would have thought that seeking to heal and grow spiritually is exactly what the husband and wife should be seeking to do if they want to try to repair their relationship. If one considers marriage to be a sacred union before God then spiritual healing and growth are essential because there has been a break in the vows. That the kids get hurt is inevitable given the nature of the breakdown (which, let's face it, is often preceded by some sort of infidelity).

The answer to prayer might just be that in x amount of years the relationship is healed between the spouses and between their children. Given the complexities of our personal interactions, I can't see how one could expect anything more. It ain't quick or pretty.

I suspect that if one is expecting miracles, then one will be disappointed. They are by definition rare events.

So in the case of a couple who are divorced years and one party (non Christian) absolutely hates the (Christian) other and the children are going to therapy-are we to believe that God works all things together for good? I'm not saying one should expect anything more in worldly terms but with God I don't get how it's 'working for good'. The scars can be too deep to heal in many cases...

Quo Vadis

Splendour wrote: »

There was a woman who had so much faith that she was cured by merely touching Jesus' garments. She had faith which was obviously bigger than a mustard seed-but, we don't know how bigger. Now a Christian may have faith the size of a mustard seed and be healed and a Christian may have faith the size of a mountain and not be healed-they both might pray like the clappers and one gets healed-the other doesn't-if so, what's the point in praying? Am not trying to be antagonistic but trying to understand...

And if she did not touch Jesus's garments and thought "what's the point" ?, he should come to me ?

Splendour wrote: »

Sorry, but as a Christian, I would like to think that all life difficulties are answered in the bible-else we may as well make up our own rules!

Free will is necessary and God's gift to us, otherwise we're just programmed robots. You have to experience some things in life to fully understand them, that's the point I was making. As a parent you can try to teach a child many things, but at some point, if you truly love them, and want their freely chosen love in return, you let them experience life and make choices for themselves.

Splendour

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I suspect that if one is expecting miracles, then one will be disappointed. They are by definition rare events.

Maybe I'm hanging around with too many spirit filled Christians! They believe God can cause multiple miracles!! Oh me of little faith...

Keylem

I think this summerises the order in which we should pray! Pray first for our Spiritual needs, then everything else will be added if it be for the good of our souls.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Splendour

Keylem wrote: »

I think this summerises the order in which we should pray! Pray first for our Spiritual needs, then everything else will be added if it be for the good of our souls.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Seek ye therefore first the kingdom of God, and his justice, and all these things shall be added unto you.

Yes, we must obviously pray for our spiritual needs first but it doesn't mean that everything else will be added unless it's Gods will which brings me back to my original point. Most Christians will at some point pray for a special intention e.g. 'Dear Lord will you cure Mary from cancer which is eating away at her body'
And Mary may be cured or she may not. However if God's will surpasses ours why do we pray about specifics? Why not just ask God to be with Mary while His will is being done?

Splendour

Quo Vadis wrote: »

And if she did not touch Jesus's garments and thought "what's the point" ?, he should come to me ?

The point is no matter how much she faith she had she would not have been cured if it were not God's will. Sorry if I sound antagonistic with this thread but am trying to understand and develop my faith.

Fanny Cradock

Splendour wrote: »

So in the case of a couple who are divorced years and one party (non Christian) absolutely hates the (Christian) other and the children are going to therapy-are we to believe that God works all things together for good? I'm not saying one should expect anything more in worldly terms but with God I don't get how it's 'working for good'. The scars can be too deep to heal in many cases...

Again, I can't answer that. It's above my pay scale. But who is to say what will happen down the line? I've certainly known people who have been radically transformed because of Christ - be they wife beating drug addicts or whatever. It seems to me that the common thread that ties these people together is that they were in some way open to the idea of allowing God in. That didn't happen in Mark 6:1-6. At the risk of repeating myself, I would think that all the people in your example (not just the non-Christian) require spiritual healing.

Whatever about all the other links I've posted, I think you should watch this talk given by D Carson on suffering. I would hope that the Romans 8:28 verse you quoted will take on a different meaning in light of this explanation.

Splendour wrote: »

Maybe I'm hanging around with too many spirit filled Christians! They believe God can cause multiple miracles!! Oh me of little faith...

:pac: Maybe! I've certainly known people who thought that every green light and every free parking space was a miracle. I don't deny that God can do multiple miracles, but the point is that they type of grandiose events that we consider to be miracles are rare, even in the Bible! I think it is more likely that God, for whatever reason, works in the details.

Splendour wrote: »

'Dear Lord will you cure Mary from cancer which is eating away at her body'...

Again, have a listen to the talk above. In particular pay attention to the story of his wife, her battle with cancer and her prayer to another victim of cancer. I won't say more. Please listen to it.

Keylem

When my dad was in hospital last year and wasn't very well, I went to Church to pray. I prayed that he would die a happy death IF it was the will of God that he wouldn't be cured. I felt his immortal soul was more important should the worse happen, even though I wanted him cured. 2 days later he died peacefully in his sleep in hospital! God knows the bigger picture, even if we don't!

Fanny Cradock

That was pretty much the thrust of Ms Carson's prayer (sorry, I don't know her name) alluded to above.

antiskeptic

Splendour wrote: »

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

A couple of thoughts..

It struck me a few years back that the core aim of worship isn't that God can enjoy his creation holding him in high regard. Rather, worship is something provided by God to us in order that we can express outwardly that which is in us - in this case, love for and wonder of God.

If we didn't have that means of expressing out what was within it would result in our confinement. Just as not being able to express out (by means of a YELL!!) a mis-aimed hammer blow to the thumb would be confining.

It strikes me somewhat similarily now that the ultimate prayer is the one which seeks that the will of God be done but that 'permission' to express our own (perhaps) contradictory-to-God's-will goals is provided us in prayer in order that we can express out our hearts to God. Not being able to express so would be confining for us.

Consider it perhaps, a pressure relief valve, just as worship could be considered a pressure relief valve.

TravelJunkie

Splendour wrote: »

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

we need to rely on God to shape our lives, which is why we pray to him really. Sometimes the words of what we ask for don't really matter, if you think about it, it is the fact that we're going to Him that's important.
If you didn't pray, you would eventually draw away from God. His will wouldn't be done in your life, only your mistakes.
Gods will is perfect, and will bless us with every spiritual blessing.
As for the other things, well, we have to rely on Him. Financial troubles... we all have them nowadays, I suppose, but the important thing is we have a roof over our heads and we're not on the street. You know what I mean? And if someone lost their thumb, at least they didn't lose their hand?

Even the apostle Paul had a thorn in his side, there was something he was praying for (speculation was it may have been an ailment), but he never received his answer to prayer. But, he was all the better for it (spiritually).

God's bigger picture for us isn't a mansion on earth but a mansion in heaven.

x

eyescreamcone

Splendour wrote: »

Maybe he did but I would like to think God would've recorded it in the bible if he had done so.

Human beings wrote the bible not any deity. FACT!

Fanny Cradock

Yes, we believe that humans like Paul wrote the Bible. You have had your warnings in the past. Stop trolling this forum.

PDN

Splendour, there are several key points we need to understand here.

1. God's will does not always come to pass. This might seem shocking to some, but the idea that everything that happens has been willed by God is much more of an Islamic concept than a Christian one. For example, God is not willing that any should perish but wants everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Yet we know that some people will perish, and fail to come to repentance, because they use their free will to choose something other than God's will.

2. The New Testament also reveals that prayer changes things. Through prayer we receive things that we would not otherwise have received. And, conversely, if we don't ask then we will miss out on receiving some things from God (James 4:2).

3. We don't receive absolutely everything we ask for. Sometimes God may refuse a request because He knows it is not for our good. You, as a mother, would not have given your children a sharp knife when they were very young, no matter how much they asked for it. Therefore, it makes perfect sense, when we pray, to ask that our prayers might only be answered positively if they are in accordance with God's will.

eyescreamcone

Why bother praying if... wishing will give just as good results... maybe better!

Fanny Cradock

Stop elevating the situation by trolling this forum.

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

Disclaimer - Atheists speaking

My understanding of this has always been that you pray to God for things to happen not because you actually believe this action will cause God to do something he would not have done otherwise, but merely as a demonstration of faith, that you turn to God rather than turning to anyone else (ie other Gods, witchcraft, idols).

It is not specifically what you ask for that is important, but the fact that you ask God. Like your parents saying that if you have any trouble in college they want you to ring them first. They might not be able to do anything about it, but they want to be the first person you rely on.

So saying "Please God cure my mums cancer" is not really saying "I know you weren't going to do this unless I asked so now I'm asking", but more a demonstrate that in troubling times when you are concerned about something distressing you turn to God, rather than say turning to a false prophet and saying "Please David Blane cure my mums cancer" or "Please Zeus cure my mums cancer"

God may or may not do it, the important thing is that you ask him not another false idol or god or witch or devil.

georgieporgy

Splendour wrote: »

Out for a walk earlier and praying to God as I normally do while walking and as I prayed the 'Our Father' this thought came to mind: Why do we pray for certain intentions while we also pray 'thy will be done'. What is the point in praying for a cure or guidance or anything if Jesus told us to pray that God's will be done?

There's more to prayer than asking for things. Prayer as you know is basically communicating with God. Much like a small child talks to a parent, much of what we say is rubbish but the very act of communication is what is important.
There are generally understood to be 4 types of prayer

1 adoration and praise
2 reparation (for failings of mankind)
3 intercession ( for others)
4 petition (gimme this)

All those monks and nuns holed up in monasteries spend their lives praying for the rest of us. If you spend more time on types 1,2,3 you may find that you will get better results with number 4.

Wicknight's last post is pretty much on the ball too. Put it into action Wick, and soon you'll be one of us

Splendour

antiskeptic wrote: »

It strikes me somewhat similarily now that the ultimate prayer is the one which seeks that the will of God be done but that 'permission' to express our own (perhaps) contradictory-to-God's-will goals is provided us in prayer in order that we can express out our hearts to God. Not being able to express so would be confining for us.

I can see the sense in what you say but if God already knows our needs there really is no need to express them in prayer. Instead of it being a 'release valve' as you say, it can be frustrating at times. Not to mention what God must think of the constant asking!

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

Splendour, there are several key points we need to understand here.

1. God's will does not always come to pass. This might seem shocking to some, but the idea that everything that happens has been willed by God is much more of an Islamic concept than a Christian one. For example, God is not willing that any should perish but wants everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Yet we know that some people will perish, and fail to come to repentance, because they use their free will to choose something other than God's will.

2. The New Testament also reveals that prayer changes things. Through prayer we receive things that we would not otherwise have received. And, conversely, if we don't ask then we will miss out on receiving some things from God (James 4:2).

3. We don't receive absolutely everything we ask for. Sometimes God may refuse a request because He knows it is not for our good. You, as a mother, would not have given your children a sharp knife when they were very young, no matter how much they asked for it. Therefore, it makes perfect sense, when we pray, to ask that our prayers might only be answered positively if they are in accordance with God's will.

I appreciate God does not grant answers to every prayer and has good reason for it. Reminds me of the film Bruce Almighty; Jim Carey as God answered 'yes' to everyone's prayers. Amongst other things, half of the state won the lotto and chaos ensued!

I'm not concerned here about God answering prayers but rather why we make requests at all if, as you say, we don't know what is God's will and what's not.

Splendour

Wicknight wrote: »

Disclaimer - Atheists speaking

My understanding of this has always been that you pray to God for things to happen not because you actually believe this action will cause God to do something he would not have done otherwise, but merely as a demonstration of faith, that you turn to God rather than turning to anyone else (ie other Gods, witchcraft, idols).

It is not specifically what you ask for that is important, but the fact that you ask God. Like your parents saying that if you have any trouble in college they want you to ring them first. They might not be able to do anything about it, but they want to be the first person you rely on.

So saying "Please God cure my mums cancer" is not really saying "I know you weren't going to do this unless I asked so now I'm asking", but more a demonstrate that in troubling times when you are concerned about something distressing you turn to God, rather than say turning to a false prophet and saying "Please David Blane cure my mums cancer" or "Please Zeus cure my mums cancer"

God may or may not do it, the important thing is that you ask him not another false idol or god or witch or devil.

Very impressive Wicknight! There's a slot free in our church on Sunday if you fancy doing a spot of preaching

Splendour

georgieporgy wrote: »

There's more to prayer than asking for things. Prayer as you know is basically communicating with God. Much like a small child talks to a parent, much of what we say is rubbish but the very act of communication is what is important.
There are generally understood to be 4 types of prayer

1 adoration and praise
2 reparation (for failings of mankind)
3 intercession ( for others)
4 petition (gimme this)

All those monks and nuns holed up in monasteries spend their lives praying for the rest of us. If you spend more time on types 1,2,3 you may find that you will get better results with number 4.

Wicknight's last post is pretty much on the ball too. Put it into action Wick, and soon you'll be one of us

You're right georgie, as Christians we should concentrate more on the first three and leave number four out of it as God knows our needs anyway. I find a lot of prayer groups focus a quite a bit on number four.

Splendour

PDN wrote: »

3. We don't receive absolutely everything we ask for. Sometimes God may refuse a request because He knows it is not for our good. You, as a mother, would not have given your children a sharp knife when they were very young, no matter how much they asked for it. Therefore, it makes perfect sense, when we pray, to ask that our prayers might only be answered positively if they are in accordance with God's will.

Of course a parent wouldn't give their young child a knife but if they saw their kid struggling and knew they could help-they would!! God obviously can help but chooses not to in some cases for whatever reason. But this is not really what my thread is about anyway.

Keylem

IMHO I think that if God gave us everything unconditionally without the asking, then like spoiled children we would take it for granted and not appreciate it. God is always happy to give many graces to those who ASK!! Sometimes what we ask for comes after many supplications, and granted only if it be for the good of souls. In the bible there is a parable of the widow who wore down the king until she got justice!

Luke 18:1-8
Douey Rheims

AND he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint, Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me. And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge saith. And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard? I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

PDN

Keylem wrote: »

IMHO I think that if God gave us everything unconditionally without the asking, then like spoiled children we would take it for granted and not appreciate it. God is always happy to give many graces to those who ASK!! Sometimes what we ask for comes after many supplications, and granted only if it be for the good of souls. In the bible there is a parable of the widow who wore down the king until she got justice!

Luke 18:1-8
Douey Rheims

AND he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint, Saying: There was a judge in a certain city, who feared not God, nor regarded man. And there was a certain widow in that city, and she came to him, saying: Avenge me of my adversary. And he would not for a long time. But afterwards he said within himself: Although I fear not God, nor regard man, Yet because this widow is troublesome to me, I will avenge her, lest continually coming she weary me. And the Lord said: Hear what the unjust judge saith. And will not God revenge his elect who cry to him day and night: and will he have patience in their regard? I say to you, that he will quickly revenge them. But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

And the point of the parable, of course, is that prayer changes things. That has been the position of Christians for 2000 years (and of Jews for thousands of years before that).

What Wicknight posted (that prayer doesn't actually change things but that God wants you to pray to Him to do what He's already decided to do anyway, irrespective of whether you pray or not) is a deeply unbiblical parody of historic Christian belief concerning prayer. I personally find it depressing that some professing Christians in this thread agree with it.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

And the point of the parable, of course, is that prayer changes things. That has been the position of Christians for 2000 years (and of Jews for thousands of years before that).

Isn't that more a parable about continuing to have faith even if you do not initially get what you want? (which is entirely consistent with what I said)

You aren't suggesting someone can wear down God, or cause him to do something he wasn't going to do, through constant praying to him? I don't think you are supposed to equate God with the unjust judge. God is an atemporal eternal being. He doesn't change his mind.