Is the 2011 world cup squad our best yet?

badabing106

I know that that the 2007 team was touted as our best ever and that it would somewhow going to be the end of a golden age ...and it was a great team on paper but Eddie o sullivan clearly had zero faith in anyone other than the 15 on the pitch?

Is the 2011 team a far better team than the 2007 team? In what areas would you consider them better?

Unfortunately, though true, the problem is that each and every country should also raise the same claim.

Other than England and perhaps France, the above statement is true for the lot of us!

Such is the progression of professional rugby, the proliferation of the game amongst "the unwashed" and the improvements of the game at grassroots levels over the last 4 years.

Stev_o

Squad? Yes. Bar a few places we have 2 to up 4 very capable players competing for a spot.

To think the quality we have a 10 is fairly outstanding most nations would be quite jealous of riches. Just lack back up Tight Head to round it off.

Piliger

I think the last one was the best. But it doesn't matter a **** if the squad splits into factions, and individual's private lives get entangled with other teams player's lives etc.

If we are to succeed the squad has to be mentally top, never mind physically or skilfully.

Dr.Evil

Since 2007, Ireland have won a Grand Slam, three Heineken Cups, and two/three Magners Leagues, so you can only really conclude it would be our best squad I would say.

corny

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately, though true, the problem is that each and every country should also raise the same claim.

Other than England and perhaps France, the above statement is true for the lot of us!

Such is the progression of professional rugby, the proliferation of the game amongst "the unwashed" and the improvements of the game at grassroots levels over the last 4 years.

Think thats wide of the mark. The Argies were definitely better in 07, SA were 4 years younger in 07 (their team hasn't radically changed) and i'd argue the NZer's had just as good a side in 07. Also think England are far better now than they were in 07 despite reaching the final.

Leroy Lita

do ye think Damien Varley will be in the World Cup sqaud? his throwing was brutal tonight. pity Mike Sherry didnt get a bit more game time this season as he is a better player than Varley.
who know's, maybe Kidney might take a gamble and bring Sherry?

Spudmonkey

Leroy Lita wrote: »

do ye think Damien Varley will be in the World Cup sqaud? his throwing was brutal tonight. pity Mike Sherry didnt get a bit more game time this season as he is a better player than Varley.
who know's, maybe Kidney might take a gamble and bring Sherry?

I really rate sherry. I'd love to see DK bringing him.

PhatPiggins

Best, Cronin and A another will be the hookers. We all want it to be Flannery but realistically he's toast. Varley is next in line but he can't throw past 4 with confidence.

Actually he might just bring the 2 hookers and a pile of props instead.

LostPassword

We have little depth in the front row and have no clear outstanding player at scrum half - other than that we have great strength in depth everywhere. I figure we're much stronger than in 2007. We have 5 world class back rows. Our second rows are 4 years more experienced and 4 years older - which is a good thing in that position. Our starting centres are also 4 years older - which is a mixed thing in that position, but we now have 3 guys who are plausible replacements (McFadden, Bowe and Earls) which we didn't have before. Our back 3 is brimming with class and depth (Earls, Bowe, Fitz, Kearney, Jones, Murphy, Trimble). We have two genuine international class number 10s - one of which could be the complete package (Sexton is a good runner and tackler). We have a very good mix of youth and experience in the right positions. Most importantly, we have a coach who has a good appreciation of social and psychological aspects of management as against EOS who was an excellent technical coach, but one who ignored such matters and did stuff like basing the team in an anodyne hotel in an industrial estate.

Of the major teams, I think only Oz are much stronger than they were last time out - NZ and France are much of a muchness as they were last time, and a little weaker if anything. England are probably a bit stronger, but still no great shakes and SA are probably a bit weaker, with much the same personnel and little in the way of exciting new blood. Wales and Scotland are on a long term decline and the Argies are also getting a bit on. We are very unlucky to have to face Oz in the pool stages. But whatever happens, the fact that the Kiwis are at home probably means that nobody else has any chance at all.

Having said all that, I fear that we will, yet again, fail to perform at the WC as we have done every time that we have had a good team. The horrors of sitting through that game at Parc Des Princes still torment me.

Leroy Lita

New Zealand will have a very strong squad for the world cup. as will Austrailia. wouldnt be too impressed with South Africa.
personally, i think Ireland will perform this time around in the World Cup and will do the best of the Northern Hemisphere teams.

SomeFool

badabing106 wrote: »

Is the 2011 team a far better team than the 2007 team? In what areas would you consider them better?

They have the advantage of having learned the lessons of 2007.

The 2003 team came within inches of becoming legends against the Ozzies, ROG's crossfield kick to Horgan/Humph's DG attempt. All we can ask of the '11 team is that they give themselves the same oppertunities but convert them clinically.

Dr.Evil

Obviously the 2011 squad isn't announced, I'm going on mostly the probables. And I've just put in the number for each position as there was in 2007, i.e. there were three second rows and six back rows brought in 07, so I'll list three second rows and six back rows for the 11 squad. Gives an idea of what you're comparing.

2007 props: Simon Best, John Hayes, Marcus Horan, Bryan Young.
2011 props: Cian Healy, Mike Ross, Tom Court, Tony Buckley/John Hayes.

2007 hookers: Rory Best, Jerry Flannery, Frankie Sheahan
2011 hookers: Rory Best, Jerry Flannery, Sean Cronin.

2007 second rows: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Malcolm O'Kelly
2011 second rows: Donnacha O'Callaghan, Paul O'Connell, Leo Cullen.

2007 back rows: Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Denis Leamy, Alan Quinlan, Neil Best, Simon Easterby.
2011 back rows: Sean O'Brien, Stephen Ferris, David Wallace, Shane Jennings, Jamie Heaslip, Kevin McLoughlin.

2007 scrum halves: Peter Stringer, Isaac Boss, Eoin Reddan.
2011 scrum halves: Tomas O'Leary, Isaac Boss, Eoin Reddan.

2007 fly halves: Ronan O'Gara, Paddy Wallace.
2011 fly halves: Ronan O'Gara, Johnny Sexton.

2007 centres: Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Gavin Duffy.
2011 centres: Brian O'Driscoll, Gordon D'Arcy, Paddy Wallace.

2007 wings/fullbacks: Brian Carney, Denis Hickie, Shane Horgan, Andrew Trimble, Girvan Dempsey, Geordan Murphy.
2011 wings/fullbacks: Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Tommy Bowe, Fergus McFadden/Andrew Trimble, Rob Kearney, Geordan Murphy.

I'd rate the 2011 squad as much better looking between the two. Looking at players like Brian Carney, Bryan Young or Gavin Duffy, were they ever going to start/play? I could see nearly anybody out of the 2011 squad play. Much stronger.
Also out of interest, 14/15 return from the 07 squad there.

danthefan

I think we possibly have our strongest playing panel.

Shame about the coach though.

DDC1990

danthefan wrote: »

I think we possibly have our strongest playing panel.

Shame about the coach though.

:rolleyes:

Grand Slam not enough for ya?

Not even played a game in the World Cup and you slate him.
Come WC time, if Ireland are successful you'll be jumping in the streets praising Kidney.

Realistically This years 6 Nations didn't matter a tap, it was all about WC prep.
Only for a dropped ball against France and a Dodgy quick lineout against Wales, we could have won a Grand Slam this year! Kidney didn't drop the ball Cronin did. Kidney didn't fall asleep at lineout time, 15 Irish players did.

Kidney knows what it takes in big tournaments. He showed that in 08. Leave the man do his job, and if he does it badly, then criticize him all you like, but he's been successful when it counts for Ireland and Munster.

we didn't win a Grand Slam this year. That's what matters coming into WC, not past history.

We actually took a massive step back during this year's 6N when we reverted to a kicking game vs Wales, everything had been going fine until then (bar penalties), Rome wasn't built in a day, it took Leinster over a month of games to get the gameplan together, but you have to back yourself to play the game that they do. That reversion to type showed a lack of faith/confidence in our abilities.

Thought it was a disaster tbh

sock puppet

DDC1990 wrote: »

Kidney knows what it takes in big tournaments. He showed that in 08. Leave the man do his job, and if he does it badly, then criticize him all you like, but he's been successful when it counts for Ireland and Munster.

Every other coach also does. It hardly sets us apart.

danthefan

DDC1990 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Grand Slam not enough for ya?

Not even played a game in the World Cup and you slate him.
Come WC time, if Ireland are successful you'll be jumping in the streets praising Kidney.

Realistically This years 6 Nations didn't matter a tap, it was all about WC prep.
Only for a dropped ball against France and a Dodgy quick lineout against Wales, we could have won a Grand Slam this year! Kidney didn't drop the ball Cronin did. Kidney didn't fall asleep at lineout time, 15 Irish players did.

Kidney knows what it takes in big tournaments. He showed that in 08. Leave the man do his job, and if he does it badly, then criticize him all you like, but he's been successful when it counts for Ireland and Munster.

You obviously have a fairly selective definition of "when it counts".

The Grand Slam was fantastic btw, but the failure to kick on from there has been shameful.

Stev_o

Deleted User wrote: »

we didn't win a Grand Slam this year. That's what matters coming into WC, not past history.

We actually took a massive step back during this year's 6N when we reverted to a kicking game vs Wales, everything had been going fine until then (bar penalties), Rome wasn't built in a day, it took Leinster over a month of games to get the gameplan together, but you have to back yourself to play the game that they do. That reversion to type showed a lack of faith/confidence in our abilities.

Thought it was a disaster tbh

Really doesn't. History has shown on two occasions that the country that produces the the Heinekin Cup final gets to the World Cup final.

Winning a 6N in a World Cup year is pretty meaningless on past examples. I don't see how performances from 4/5 months ago can effect you latter on during a world cup. The warm up games are a far better barometer.

TheHighRoad

If Murphy and Kearney were fit it would be. However like with 2007 theres no point in having a great squad if the manager won't pick the right 22.

Quint2010

danthefan wrote: »

You obviously have a fairly selective definition of "when it counts".

The Grand Slam was fantastic btw, but the failure to kick on from there has been shameful.

I think we have kicked on in our playing philosphy-backboned by Leinsters playing philosphy. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. The team improved immeasurably in the six nations culminating in our blistering performance against England. I think we have a great chance of doing well in the world cup.

irishbucsfan

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think we have kicked on in our playing philosphy

Apart from the game against England there has been very little evidence of this.

I can't remember the precise stat, but the amount of times we kicked the ball away against Wales was ludicrous.

jolley123

I don't really think Kidney has been too impressive recently. I'll wait till after the WC to give him a chance to prove me wrong, but I'm not that optimistic.

He's quite reluctant to incorporate the bench. He seems to use it as cover more than as a weapon. I think that's clear with his decision to use Wallace ahead of McFadden in the 6nations. Also, how much game-time did Cullen get?

Coming in to these WC warm-up games, Tuohy should have had more game-time. Hagan should have a cap. Jennings and Cullen should have way more minutes clocked up, as should McFadden.

I'm not in favor of dishing out test caps, but the names I've mentioned deserve more opportunities.

Quint2010

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Apart from the game against England there has been very little evidence of this.

I can't remember the precise stat, but the amount of times we kicked the ball away against Wales was ludicrous.

True but Kidney realised the error and we played superb heads up high-intensity rugby in out final match.

Burgo

Quint2010 wrote: »

True but Kidney realised the error and we played superb heads up high-intensity rugby in out final match.

I hope you're right mate I really do.

danthefan

Quint2010 wrote: »

I think we have kicked on in our playing philosphy-backboned by Leinsters playing philosphy. Sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. The team improved immeasurably in the six nations culminating in our blistering performance against England. I think we have a great chance of doing well in the world cup.

Don't agree with this at all.

We put in a very good performance against England, in my mind the best since France in 2009. What came before that was dreadful.

And apart from that one game we've no evidence at all that the team has taken on a new style of play.

rebel girl 15

danthefan wrote: »

Don't agree with this at all.

We put in a very good performance against England, in my mind the best since France in 2009. What came before that was dreadful.

And apart from that one game we've no evidence at all that the team has taken on a new style of play.

My abiding memory of the start of the 6N was poor execution from nearly every player - the team were trying to play too high a tempo game when basic errors were being made, which made it look dreadful. The potential for greatness was there, but some basic errors ruined it.

the performance against England, things came together and the error count was less. The potential is there, but imo, we can't say that the 2011 WC squad is the greatest until they play. I think there is massive potential there alright

tolosenc

DDC1990 wrote: »

Only for a dropped ball against France and a Dodgy quick lineout against Wales, we could have won a Grand Slam this year

But for a missed drop goal, we WOULD have lost to Italy this year.

Coulda woulda shoulda.

antogz1979

danthefan wrote: »

I think we possibly have our strongest playing panel.

Shame about the coach though.

Stupid comment. Typical fat boy at home in front of the computer. Would you say it to Kidneys face, doubt it.

padraig.od

jolley123 wrote: »

I don't really think Kidney has been too impressive recently. I'll wait till after the WC to give him a chance to prove me wrong, but I'm not that optimistic.

He's quite reluctant to incorporate the bench. He seems to use it as cover more than as a weapon. I think that's clear with his decision to use Wallace ahead of McFadden in the 6nations. Also, how much game-time did Cullen get?

Coming in to these WC warm-up games, Tuohy should have had more game-time. Hagan should have a cap. Jennings and Cullen should have way more minutes clocked up, as should McFadden.

I'm not in favor of dishing out test caps, but the names I've mentioned deserve more opportunities.

Tuohy was injured all tournament, Ross had 0 international experience prior to this 6N, don't know why you would play Hagan to get experience ahead of him, Cullen is good enough to be parachuted in but will never start as long as POC is fit (for loads of reasons). I agree on Jennings though

Podge_irl

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

My abiding memory of the start of the 6N was poor execution from nearly every player - the team were trying to play too high a tempo game when basic errors were being made, which made it look dreadful. The potential for greatness was there, but some basic errors ruined it.

the performance against England, things came together and the error count was less. The potential is there, but imo, we can't say that the 2011 WC squad is the greatest until they play. I think there is massive potential there alright

Don't really agree either. They were trying something against Italy, but it didn't really come off. I have no idea what they were playing at against Scotland and Wales but it was a complete regression in playing style.

England was very much a one-off. They didn't build up to it at all. They didn't seem to know what kind of game plan they were trying to play for most of it.

irishbucsfan

antogz1979 wrote: »

Stupid comment. Typical fat boy at home in front of the computer. Would you say it to Kidneys face, doubt it.

Is that supposed to say "Stupid Comment:"?

irishbucsfan

padraig.od wrote: »

Tuohy was injured all tournament, Ross had 0 international experience prior to this 6N, don't know why you would play Hagan to get experience ahead of him, Cullen is good enough to be parachuted in but will never start as long as POC is fit (for loads of reasons). I agree on Jennings though

I don't see how Hagan would have been able to play in the 6N either. He should have been played in the AIs though. As should Mike Ross.

Tuohy has missed his chances this season through poor form and injury. I don't think there's been any game this year where he has been unlucky to miss out. His bad luck started before the SH tour and it seems to be continuing. He should be concentrating on WC 2015 now I think.

On paper though, this squad is better than the 2007 one. No doubt.

jolley123

padraig.od wrote: »

Tuohy was injured all tournament, Ross had 0 international experience prior to this 6N, don't know why you would play Hagan to get experience ahead of him, Cullen is good enough to be parachuted in but will never start as long as POC is fit (for loads of reasons). I agree on Jennings though

I'm not talking about the 6 nations. I'm talking about the 6nations + Autumn int + Summer int etc. Ross should have had int exp before this years 6 nations. So should Hagan. I can concede to the Tuohy point just because we have so many locks, and the fact that he was injured. It's not a case of Cullen starting, it's a case of bringing him on with enough time for him to have an impact.

SomeFool

jolley123 wrote: »

I don't really think Kidney has been too impressive recently. I'll wait till after the WC to give him a chance to prove me wrong, but I'm not that optimistic.

He's quite reluctant to incorporate the bench. He seems to use it as cover more than as a weapon. I think that's clear with his decision to use Wallace ahead of McFadden in the 6nations. Also, how much game-time did Cullen get?

Coming in to these WC warm-up games, Tuohy should have had more game-time. Hagan should have a cap. Jennings and Cullen should have way more minutes clocked up, as should McFadden.

I'm not in favor of dishing out test caps, but the names I've mentioned deserve more opportunities.

To be fair, I think McFaddan got good game time this 6n, not his fault the team malfunctioned against Italy and he impressed against France but looking at the England game it was right to field the team that played and leave him out, Trimble was massive I thought.

On the Jennings issue I reckon it will be Wallace or SOB at 7. He's 3rd choice for that shirt. Wallace on Saturday was fantastic, giving a McCaw like diaplay of bending the rules. As quality a player as Jennings is he is to the 7 shirt what Ian Humph is to the the 10 shirt. I agree on Touhy but not Cullen, I don't think he needs lots of game time, he'll be grand if needed, not a character anyone would doubt - I'm sure he'll get quality time in the warm ups to stay sharp/challenge DOC.

As for Hagan, maybe a year or two too soon but no doubt about his future.

tolosenc wrote: »

But for a missed drop goal, we WOULD have lost to Italy this year.
Coulda woulda shoulda.

Coulda woulda shoulda indeed, how many more games would we all have won or lost! They didn't win, Ireland did, nothing wrong with that imo - game was well deserved on balance of play/posession !

ambid

SomeFool wrote: »

...On the Jennings issue I reckon it will be Wallace or SOB at 7. He's 3rd choice for that shirt. Wallace on Saturday was fantastic, giving a McCaw like diaplay of bending the rules. As quality a player as Jennings is he is to the 7 shirt what Ian Humph is to the the 10 shirt...

Wow! I don't really understand this comment. Could you expand on what you mean? I don't see the comparison at all.

Ian Humphries and Jennings have very little in common in my opinion. Humphries is a talented but very flawed player as he lacks the basic skills of a defence adequate to ether Heineken or test level, and consistency.

Jennings in contrast is among the best players in his position in Europe. He is strong in both attack and defense, is a leader, and is consistent. He has been successful in the Magners League and Premiership.

Jennings is probably one of the most unlucky players around to have picked up so few test caps. Humphries is just not international standard.

I see very little in common between them both.

Richarz

I'd argue that Jennings brings out the best in O'Brien and for that reason alone he should get a chance to stake his claim in a backrow alongside O'Brien and Heaslip. O'Brien at his best is quite literally a match winner who can turn teams on their heads.

Also, he was absolutely brilliant on Saturday! I'm suprised no one has said it yet but if that game had been in any other venue Jennings would have gotten man of the match. He really deserved it despite being on the losing team.

Richarz

DDC1990 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Grand Slam not enough for ya?

Not even played a game in the World Cup and you slate him.
Come WC time, if Ireland are successful you'll be jumping in the streets praising Kidney.

Realistically This years 6 Nations didn't matter a tap, it was all about WC prep.
Only for a dropped ball against France and a Dodgy quick lineout against Wales, we could have won a Grand Slam this year! Kidney didn't drop the ball Cronin did. Kidney didn't fall asleep at lineout time, 15 Irish players did.

Kidney knows what it takes in big tournaments. He showed that in 08. Leave the man do his job, and if he does it badly, then criticize him all you like, but he's been successful when it counts for Ireland and Munster.

The rugby we played to win that Grand Slam in 2009 was dire and thanks to a lot of luck we made it. We then beat a poorly performing South African team and suddenly we were world beaters. Unfortunately we continued to play that dire rugby in 2010 and 2011 except this time luck was not on our side. There has been absolutely no improvement, in fact, I'd argue that the performance against England was simply down to Sexton having an utter stormer rather than tactics paying off.

We are going out in the QFs, possibly even the group stages if we're not very careful. Kidney is still playing Munster rugby with his favourite Munster players. Cullen should be ahead of O'Callaghan who is too inconsistent to be deemed irreplacable and the entire Leinster backrow should be starting. Reddan or Boss and not O'Leary should be there.

Its quite sad that Healy, O'Brien and Ross only got their chances through injury. Healy and Ross were able to finally fix our scrum problems and O'Brien has become the best player in europe, everyone was screaming for their selections yet Kidney was forced to play them. Horan, Leamy and Buckley could very well have been playing to this very day were it not for a bit of luck. The Sexton call was the only one he had to make and that was basically made for him as O'Gara's form was so utterly poor at the time.

This is why Ireland needs a manager from outside of Ireland. We have been scuppered in one world cup by a manager who refused to budge from his starting 15 and now it seems we have another one who is similar.

JustinDee

The team is not picked by one person alone but by the senior management in consensus.
The manager is Paul McNaughton, by the way. Not Dec Kidney.

Write them off if you want. No worries with that. Belittle what they've achieved as lucky though? Rubbish. The game vs France showed the expansive mixture of tactics and the England game showed they could match up with the most physical of ten-man sides. Came back at Wales with two tries in a tight tight game.
Drew against a rejuvenated Wallabies side and beat a South African side with the strongest pack and deadliest backrow.
Lucky? Whatever floats your boat.

Richarz

You mean that same South African side who lost to Saracens the week before? We drew with an Australia who were on the losing end of most of their games that year and even then we were extraordinarily luckly to get the draw. Wales are an absolutely terrible team.

Kidney makes the final call. Justindee how on earth can you defend the fact that Ross, Healy and O'Brien only got their chances through injury? Hayes and Buckley were our two first choice tightheads going into the Autumn internationals!!

irishbucsfan

JustinDee wrote: »

The team is not picked by one person alone but by the senior management in consensus.

Declan Kidney takes responsibility for picking the team. He will always take the criticism for it and he never feels the need to hide behind comments like that.

He is ultimately responsible for choosing the team and for selecting squads and far under his management team selection has been extremely conservative. Yet when he is forced to select new players through injury it has shown to be extremely succesful.

endabob1

This years squad is stronger in places but much weaker in places than what's gone before, as pointed out elsewhere we don't have an outstanding scrum-half, I'd love to see Kidney take a punt on Conor Murray as the 3rd scrum half, he really looks the part.

Our front row is in for a very difficult time, especially against the Italians and against anyone else if we get out of the group.

No major worries in the second or back rows, although like a lot of people I think Cullen has done enough to warrant his inclusion ahead of DOC.

10 is fine, 2 top players who both bring something different, slight worry about ROG's temperament on occasion but he's been a class act for us down the years.

Plenty of options on the wings & Bowe on form is top class, not many better in the world. I have serious reservations about D'Arcy at 12, his defence is not up to scratch any more.

Full back should be one of our strongest slots but with Kearney's injury and Murphy seeming to be out of favour again I guess we're looking at Earls or Fitzgerald, neither fill me with confidence at 15.

Of the other teams I think the All-Blacks will be stronger, they're at home and they haven't made the mistake of resting players in the super 15 like they did 4 years ago, hard to see any real weak points, they have the best 10 in the game an awesome pack and some strong runners behind the scrum, it's theirs to lose imo, the only downside is the sheer weight of expectation.
Australia are coming good at the right time but I think their pack isn't strong enough and I think they'll struggle on their set-pieces (a bit like ours)
Write of the Bok's at your peril, if you think Ireland's grand slam in 09 & 4 Heineken cups are a measure of strength, SA (ok the Bulls) have won 3 of the last 4 Super 14 & 2 of those have been all SA finals, a relatively poor tri-nations last time round but they won 5 out of 6 in '09 to win it at a canter. Their pack is rock solid, their weak point is Smith although he is apparently the best captain in the world at communicating with officials (according to Allain Rolland) he's not first choice for the Sharks. The other potential weakness is Bakkies Botha, a real hot head and can be got at, he shouldn't be first choice anymore but De Villiers (like Kidney) is conservative and resists change.

I think England are stronger, they had a poor side in 2007 despite getting to the final, the draw fell kindly for them imo and they only really played well against the Wallabies, France were done for after their Quarter with the Blacks. That said I don't think England are good enough to win it but they do appear to be peaking at the right time and Johnson is a fearless man, he's not worried about giving youth a chance. They'll need to be at their best though, Argentina in the group and either France or All Blacks in the quarters.....

France are the most likely of the European sides, they have a tough group but I think they will beat either England or Argentina and make the last 4 and after that you never know..
Argentina are not as strong as they were in 07 thanks to the continued freezing out of regular competition, hopefully the changes in the Tri-Nations will help them develop in the future but they should still get out of the group at Scotland's expense.

There you have it New Zealand to win but the Boks & France would be my next in line. Ireland to make the Quarters, but here's a thing IF we beet Australia it would probably be Wales in the Quarters & then one from England/France/Argentina in the Semi's......

JustinDee

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Declan Kidney takes responsibility for picking the team. He will always take the criticism for it and he never feels the need to hide behind comments like that

Just telling the poster how the team is picked.

JustinDee

Richarz wrote: »

You mean that same South African side who lost to Saracens the week before?

It wasn't the same side. Saracens beat a mid-week selection. Ireland beat the first-choice test side.

Richarz wrote: »

We drew with an Australia who were on the losing end of most of their games that year

Again, a changed squad which included most of the current Wallabies side.

Richarz wrote: »

Wales are an absolutely terrible team

They were the Six Nations and Grand Slam champions at the time. France weren't so bad either.

d'Oracle

JustinDee wrote: »

Ireland beat the first-choice test side.

That is debatable.

OT, I haven't seen a huge amount to get carried away with tbh.

Front row is suspect. They are better than they were, but nowhere near the standard of some past Irish teams. Plus Jerry Flannery is near the breakers yard now and he is the only hooker around who can hit his man consistently.

Second row is still undersized and while decent, nothing special.

Backrow is looking great, but then we have had a strong backrow for ages.

9's....I'd don't believe any of them will worry any team in the world.
I'd like to see Murray in the squad, but I know it won't happen.

10's Great choice provided one doesn't get hurt.

Back 3 is good, albeit broken and/or a tad inconsistant in some spots, but it depends on who is picked. It could be a very exciting back 3...

Centres....well I just hope nothing happens to BOD, but we have some depth.

totallegend

I think in two or three years, we'll be looking back at the 2011 World Cup squad and thinking "why the hell was XXXX picked when YYYY was sitting at home?", much the same way you're looking at Neil Best and Brian Carney going in 2007 when Jamie Heaslip and Tommy Bowe were kicking their heels. While these calls may have seemed reasonable at the time, they're ludicrous in hindsight (yes, I know hindsight is great etc etc)

For me, the Autumn Internationals 2010 were a wasted opportunity to really see who was in contention for a place. The team against Samoa was:

Fitzgerald; Bowe, O'Driscoll (capt), Wallace, Trimble; O'Gara, Stringer, Court, Cronin, Hayes, O'Callaghan, Toner, Leamy, Heaslip, O'Brien.

With the notable exception of Toner and possibly Cronin, we knew full well what every single member of that team is/was capable of. The team against Argentina two weeks later was even more conservative:

Geordan Murphy; Tommy Bowe, Brian O'Driscoll (Capt), Gordon D'Arcy, Andrew Trimble; Jonathan Sexton, Peter Stringer; Jamie Heaslip, David Wallace, Stephen Ferris; Donncha O'Callaghan, Mick O'Driscoll; Tony Buckley, Sean Cronin, Cian Healy.

By that stage, we were all well aware of what Buckley and Hayes could do; why not give Hagan a go (the Ross issue is already put to bed)? We all know that Ferris, Wallace and Heaslip is an awesome back-row, why not let Shane Jennings or Donncha Ryan show that they can hack it at international level?

I really feel that we're in danger of not being in a position to translate the success at provincial level into international performances because we just don't know who our best 30 players are. If Kidney has a fault, that's it. Loyalty is great to a point but there comes a time when certain players have to be dropped and other have to be tried. We now have three more matches from which to pick our squad. That's three matches to see if Kearney and/or Murphy are sufficiently back to fitness or if Jones is really up to international standard, three matches to see if McFadden can dislodge Wallace or Fitzgerald, three matches to see if Hayes is still up to the task, if Buckley is fit or if Hagan is any use and three matches to decide which three from five scrum-halves go. It's not enough.

GerM

If we're comparing the entire side then I don't think there's much in it. We have the benefit of hindsight as well as the cloud that the 2007 lies under skewing our perspectives somewhat also.

For what it's worth in my opinion:

Horan, Flannery/Best Hayes vs Healy, Best/Flannery, Ross

The big thing here is how the scrum has reemerged as a weapon and teams need to be on the top of their game moreso in relation to it. I think it's pretty even or the 2007 vintage shades it. Healy is probably a better player than Horan. He's become quite capable in the scrum and is massive outside of it. However, the hookers were better in 2007 and Hayes was simply an immense figure when he was at his peak. His workrate and line out work takes it over Mike Ross and his scrummaging.

POC/DOC vs POC/DOC

Whilst some think that the two lads will have improved with the extra age, I would be more cautious. DOC's form has slipped overall. He's not at the level or consistency he once was and if a Lions squad was selected tomorrow, I don't think many people would have him in it. POC has suffered a shocking injury run in the last 18 months and is only recovering now. He has shown that he still has the ability but will need a good WC preparation to be at the level he was. Would give the nod to the 2007 team again.

Back row: 2011 would win this clearly for me in terms of depth and overall class. Wallace has discovered the fountain of youth and his performance levels have only dipped marginally from where they were. He's still a force to be reckoned with. Heaslip is significantly better than Leamy at the base of the scrum and is one of our most important players now. Easterby was a class act and is underrated hugely by so many in this country but in 2007 he was 32 and starting to fade slightly. In SOB and Ferris, we have two of the top blindsides in the world when fit.

Halfbacks: Whilst ROG on his own a few years ago was probably a better player than ROG today and possibly Sexton today also, the options provided by ROG and Sexton together outweigh the impact of a younger, on form ROG. Scrum half is a less clear cut situation. We don't even know who our first choice is and in 2007 we didn't really know either by the end of the tournament. I would say it's about even unless Murray comes in and replicates his form for Munster.

Centres: The two boys were untouchable in 2007. They're still pretty handy but nothing in the 2011 class could match what they offered in 2007. There's better depth this time around but I think the quality of the BOD and Darce back then still shades it.

Back 3: I'd call this one even. In 2007, the back three were absolutely scintillating in the 6N. Hickie/Trimble, Horgan and Murphy/Dempsey were a great mix of defensive solidity, pace and all round ability. The back three at the moment are certainly talented but perhaps haven't done it at international level consistently yet. But they probably possess a larger threat in terms of broken field running and there is greater depth there now. Fitz, Kearney, Jones, Earls, Trimble, Bowe and McFadden. I wouldn't be too upset if our back three in a WC was made up of any 3 of these.

thebaz

the squad four years ago , for me , was far more talented and supposedly in prime - we are due a good world cup - hopefully POC and BOD can go out with a serious dent in the pinnacle of rugby

Quint2010

Interestingly, there is bonus points being awarded at this years WC. Think thats a first

Risteard

Quint2010 wrote: »

Interestingly, there is bonus points being awarded at this years WC. Think thats a first

I think they've been awarded since 2003.

If I remember correctly it was used in the SH beforehand and introduced at the WC, after which it was introduced into NH competitions.

totallegend

Quint2010 wrote: »

Interestingly, there is bonus points being awarded at this years WC. Think thats a first

Nope, 2007 as well, the whole thing about the Ireland v Argentina game was that we had to win and score four tries having missed out on a bonus point vs Georgia.