Fault with new car - what are my rights?

McSpud

I collected new car today but I was unable to take for a drive until this evening (I live very close to dealer). It has developed a fault less 1 kms from home so I need to bring it back to the (VW) dealer tomorrow. If it requires a significant parts replacement what are my rights? Hopefully I am being premature but at what stage would I be entitled to a new replacement?

Delancey

What car ? Details of fault ?

-Corkie-

Is it brand new??

McSpud

Brand new Golf TSI. fault developed on first days after a few kms. Service centre have checked it out & unless I misunderstood needs replacement turbo (I feared this might be the case) due to manufacturer fault.

I think i've answered my own now question as clearly its defective so I am sure full refund is available now.

coylemj

McSpud wrote: »

I think i've answered my own now question as clearly its defective so I am sure full refund is available now.

They will replace the defective part and claim the cost of the parts and labour back from VW. If by 'refund' you mean they will take the car back and give you a full refund i.e. give you your money back, dream on.

Twin-go

coylemj wrote: »

They will replace the defective part and claim the cost of the parts and labour back from VW. If by 'refund' you mean they will take the car back and give you a full refund i.e. give you your money back, dream on.

The Dealer will under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 be in their rights to first offer a repair then if that does not work a replacement. A refund would be the last resort.

godtabh

I remember a mate of mine bought a brand new Saab 93 in 2004/2005 (cant remember the year but think it was 2005).

He drove it 10km from a certain dealer in Sandyford up the M50 heading northbound.

All the electronics in the car went while in the right hand land during peak rush hour traffic. Anything controlled by electrics would not operate.

Saab want the car for a couple of weeks to figure the problem and fix it. He kicked up an almighty fuss and get a different car with the same specs (all in top of the line aero) plus about a grand compo.

Dont settle for we are sorry here is your broken car back. Keep pushing but dont expect to get a full refund.

Anan1

Twin-go wrote: »

The Dealer will under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 be in their rights to first offer a repair then if that does not work a replacement. A refund would be the last resort.

I was under the impression that the Sale of Goods Act entitled the consumer to a refund, repair, or replacement, at the consumer's discretion? http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_retailers.html#not_our_Fault

McSpud

I haven't approved the repairs yet & waiting until tomorrow to speak to the Sales department. I don't want to be rushed into a decision...

I think a refund will be difficult so i'd say I am looking at new replacement (I already had to wait something like 13 weeks for this car) or repair. If its repair I feel will need to get significant concessions on extended warranty & others. If I push for replacement VW would have to take a big hit on reselling the car.

andyseadog

i hated having customers like this.

if you want a refund you are absolutely pissing into the wind, and the dealer will be much less likely to be helpful if you keep pushing for something that is, to them, virtually impossible for various reasons.

when a car (even one with delivery mileage) develops a fault (maunfacturing faults can and do occur on a regular basis with all manufacturers) the dealer has 3 chances to rectify the fault before you can get consumer rights etc involved.

VW i asume should have a very good parts network so i asume given 2 days they could successfully diagnose and rectify your problem with ease while offering you a courtesy car in the meantime.

there will be no rushing into things or mulling your options, the above is what will happen. seen it before countless times, i've actually seen cases where the car was unable to be repaired through parts unavailability within the acceptable timeframe and the manufacturer has been prepared to offer another brand new car before they offer a refund.

-Corkie-

McSpud wrote: »

I haven't approved the repairs yet & waiting until tomorrow to speak to the Sales department. I don't want to be rushed into a decision...

I think a refund will be difficult so i'd say I am looking at new replacement (I already had to wait something like 13 weeks for this car) or repair. If its repair I feel will need to get significant concessions on extended warranty & others. If I push for replacement VW would have to take a big hit on reselling the car.

I would be fairly miffed after paying out my hard earned cash on a brand new motor and then it fails within a few Kms. I hope they look after you.

coolbeans

Why doesn't the OP just let the dealer repair the car and ask for a replacement in the meantime? It's just a fault that will be rectified, I don't see why you need to stress or ask for a refund. Things go wrong, it'll be fixed with new parts and will therefore be like new as before. What's the problem?

andyseadog

coolbeans wrote: »

Why doesn't the OP just let the dealer repair the car and ask for a replacement in the meantime? It's just a fault that will be rectified, I don't see why you need to stress or ask for a refund. Things go wrong, it'll be fixed with new parts and will therefore be like new as before. What's the problem?

exactly.

stuff like this happens every day, in every dealer in the country. it wasn't intentional and they will be only too happy to rectify this a.s.a.p. they have a reputation to keep up.

Anan1

andyseadog wrote: »

when a car (even one with delivery mileage) develops a fault (maunfacturing faults can and do occur on a regular basis with all manufacturers) the dealer has 3 chances to rectify the fault before you can get consumer rights etc involved.

Any chance of a source for this?

slimjimmc

Anan1 wrote: »

I was under the impression that the Sale of Goods Act entitled the consumer to a refund, repair, or replacement, at the consumer's discretion? http://www.consumerassociation.ie/rights_retailers.html#not_our_Fault

No.
It's at the consumer's discretion to request a preferred option.
It's at the retailer's discretion to offer either of the three.
It's at the consumer's discretion to to accept or reject the retailer's offer and request their preferred option.
It's at the retailer's discretion to to accept or reject the consumer's request and continue offering the same.

It's a process of negotiation. If no middle ground can be agreed the consumer can seek a judgement from the S.C.C. In making their judgement the S.C.C. will consider whether either party's offer/demand is reasonable or unreasonable.

andyseadog

Anan1 wrote: »

Any chance of a source for this?

i'm afraid not, it what i was told from management at the last main dealer i worked for that that was the stance on things. it could be nonsense but it makes good sense.

Anan1

slimjimmc wrote: »

No.
It's at the consumer's discretion to request a preferred option.
It's at the retailer's discretion to offer either of the three.
It's at the consumer's discretion to to accept or reject the retailer's offer and request their preferred option.
It's at the retailer's discretion to to accept or reject the consumer's request and continue offering the same.

It's a process of negotiation. If no middle ground can be agreed the consumer can seek a judgement from the S.C.C. In making their judgement the S.C.C. will consider whether either party's offer/demand is reasonable or unreasonable.

This seems to flatly contradict the info in the Consumer Association website I linked to, though?

Max Power1

Anan1 wrote: »

This seems to flatly contradict the info in the Consumer Association website I linked to, though?

slimjimmc is correct.

If the CAI website is not in agreement with his post, someone should really tell them they are wrong.

Thats the problem with consumer websites, they are only offering someone's opinion of a law/act, and masquerading it as "FACT"

Anan1

Max Power1 wrote: »

slimjimmc is correct.

If the CAI website is not in agreement with his post, someone should really tell them they are wrong.

Thats the problem with consumer websites, they are only offering someone's opinion of a law/act, and masquerading it as "FACT"

Can anyone link to a trustworthy source, so?

jaffa20

Hmm, it's a grey area but the customer doesn't get to choose between a refund/repair/replacement. It's really up to the retailer and if the customer rejects a repair, then looks like court is the only option.

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Hot_Topics/FAQs/Faulty-goods/

Ghost Train

Anan1 wrote: »

Can anyone link to a trustworthy source, so?

This might be better

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/

Says this on first section

It is important to note that there are no hard and fast rules as to which remedy you should be entitled to. When seeking redress for problems with goods or services the circumstances of each individual case must be taken into account.

The National Consumer Agency (NCA) replaced the Office of the Director of Consumer Affairs (ODCA) in May 2007. It is the statutory office with responsibility for providing advice and information to consumers on their rights. In addition, the NCA is responsible for the enforcement of a wide range of consumer protection laws. The NCA does not intervene or become involved in individual issues or disputes between consumers and sellers of goods or services providers. The NCA can however, advise you if you have a particular consumer problem.

This from NCA website
http://www.nca.ie/eng/Business_Zone/Guides/Full%20List/Sale%20of%20Goods.html

whippet

why is anyone really debating the merits of what the customer might want etc .. the reality is they will get their new car back with a brand new turbo and a big apology from the dealer .. probably a free first service as a good will gesture.

The reality is that no dealer in their right mind will be in a position to offer a refund or a new car as a replacement ... it's just not going to happen.

Should the OP want a refund, the Small Claims Court will not be available as a course of action as I am guessing the refund will be in the region of 20k.

therefore you will have to be prepared to fork out big bucks and go down the proper legal route. I wouldn't imagine any legal brief will be willing to do this on a 'no win - no fee' basis as the chances of winning are very much minimal.

Don't waste you time looking for recourse you are not going to get and make sure you get a free service and something nice from the Accessories brochure as a gesture of goodwill.

R.O.R

Plus - don't forget that VWGI aint going to be really that bothered with one unhappy customer. Their cars have that magic badge on the front that make people go batsh1t crazy to buy them, therefore they can give decidedly average customer service and it makes no difference at all.

Hopefully the OP will be looked after by the supplying dealer.

Henree

andyseadog wrote: »

i hated having customers like this.

if you want a refund you are absolutely pissing into the wind, and the dealer will be much less likely to be helpful if you keep pushing for something that is, to them, virtually impossible for various reasons.

when a car (even one with delivery mileage) develops a fault (maunfacturing faults can and do occur on a regular basis with all manufacturers) the dealer has 3 chances to rectify the fault before you can get consumer rights etc involved.

VW i asume should have a very good parts network so i asume given 2 days they could successfully diagnose and rectify your problem with ease while offering you a courtesy car in the meantime.

there will be no rushing into things or mulling your options, the above is what will happen. seen it before countless times, i've actually seen cases where the car was unable to be repaired through parts unavailability within the acceptable timeframe and the manufacturer has been prepared to offer another brand new car before they offer a refund.

"i hated having customers like this", What do you mean? I presume you are in car sales? Very arrogant, I am in sales too but realise that this man has handed over a large sum of money for a car. Try be more empathetic. I, unlike you appreciate every customer for spending their hard earned money to buy a car off me.

Voodoomelon

It has a defective turbo from the factory and needs to be replaced, and the customer wants a refund for the whole car?

I hate customers like this too. Infuriatingly illogical.

Henree

Voodoomelon wrote: »

It has a defective turbo from the factory and needs to be replaced, and the customer wants a refund for the whole car?

I hate customers like this too. Infuriatingly illogical.

I know that, you know that, but if you were in his position before you were in the trade, you would be the same, worried about the next thing to go wrong.

Max Power1

Voodoomelon wrote: »

It has a defective turbo from the factory and needs to be replaced, and the customer wants a refund for the whole car?

I hate customers like this too. Infuriatingly illogical.

The guts of 20k+ is a lot to pay oout, you'd expect trouble free motoring.

If it were me I'd be worried i'd got a dud, and what was next to fail (probably just outside of warranty)

McSpud

Thanks for all the comments above.

Refund is off the table & I don't believe it is on my interest.

The Replace or Repair choice seems from what I read to be mine. I don't think the law is separate for cars. I don't see this as a warranty issue as fault developed after less than 2km so its unsuitable for sale. If I had driven it longer on the day of collection i'd have noticed within a few minutes. If it was something small that was fixed today there would be no debate. Its obvious the distributer will not want to accept replacement.

I might yet accept repair but I am concerned that I taking a car which may have other problems in the future. There are probably ways that can be rectified but will have to see. I still wonder how the problem was not found beforehand.

cabrwab

Funnily enough i know somebody who successfully held out and got a full refund from a dealer, during the better times, after going down the legal route, they accepted there attempts at repairing the car.
It kept not being right.

Id tell the garage i want to be looked after a free service as a good will gesture?!!! Really Expensive couple of miles for the OP.

OP is dragging his heals alright i would get it repaired as soon as possible, but id imagine the OPs confidence is completely gone in the car and they are not happy with it.

Voodoomelon

Henree wrote: »

I know that, you know that, but if you were in his position before you were in the trade, you would be the same, worried about the next thing to go wrong.

I'm not even in the car trade, I am in retail and the same things apply across the board. Why would you have reason to believe something else would go wrong? Its one part, if its replaced it has no bearing on the rest of the car.

Its a somewhat childish attitude of stamping feet and demanding ridiculous things and I see it all the time, its like they never even wanted that product in the first place!? If I had a new car on order and some part that makes up a tiny % of the value of the car is defective, I wouldn't go looking for a refund and waltzing back out onto the street, id want my car fixed! If the dealer offers a courtesy car and maybe a free service as good will, happy days, whats the problem?

A refund or replacement, this isn't a jumper with a loose thread for god sake.

Henree

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'm not even in the car trade, I am in retail and the same things apply across the board. Why would you have reason to believe something else would go wrong? Its one part, if its replaced it has no bearing on the rest of the car.

Its a somewhat childish attitude of stamping feet and demanding ridiculous things and I see it all the time, its like they never even wanted that product in the first place!? If I had a new car on order and some part that makes up a tiny % of the value of the car is defective, I wouldn't go looking for a refund and waltzing back out onto the street, id want my car fixed! If the dealer offers a courtesy car and maybe a free service as good will, happy days, whats the problem?

A refund or replacement, this isn't a jumper with a loose thread for god sake.

ok, you right

Absurdum

Voodoomelon wrote: »

It has a defective turbo from the factory and needs to be replaced, and the customer wants a refund for the whole car?

I hate customers like this too. Infuriatingly illogical.

what's illogical about expecting their brand new €20k+ car to work?

Voodoomelon

You're twisting words, I wouldn't mind if it was a catastrophic failure of suspension, ECU or some major electrical problem, its a turbo.

Swap her out, job done, the car is still a high quality 20k car, the turbo just had a manufacturing fault.

R.O.R

McSpud wrote: »

Thanks for all the comments above.

Refund is off the table & I don't believe it is on my interest.

The Replace or Repair choice seems from what I read to be mine. I don't think the law is separate for cars. I don't see this as a warranty issue as fault developed after less than 2km so its unsuitable for sale. If I had driven it longer on the day of collection i'd have noticed within a few minutes. If it was something small that was fixed today there would be no debate. Its obvious the distributer will not want to accept replacement.

I might yet accept repair but I am concerned that I taking a car which may have other problems in the future. There are probably ways that can be rectified but will have to see. I still wonder how the problem was not found beforehand.

You'll be offered repair, and unless you want to be without a car for a good while, you are best to accept repair. Hopefully, that will be the end of it, and the car will run perfectly for the rest of it's time with you.

If you're unlucky, you'll keep having problems with it, and eventually you'll have grounds to reject the car.

We've rejected 2 cars in the last 2 years, and it's the dealers who've taken the hit as the manufactuer didn't care. The dealer is only willing to take the hit as we buy more than just the occasional car....................

Personally, I wouldn't even think of looking for anything other than repair until you've had further issues. It will be like p1ssing in to the wind.

paddydriver

andyseadog wrote: »

i hated having customers like this.

if you want a refund you are absolutely pissing into the wind, and the dealer will be much less likely to be helpful if you keep pushing for something that is, to them, (that unfortunately is)virtually impossible for various reasons.

Above is the problem...

OP - I would be looking for at least an extra year warranty and 2 free services. What would annoy me is that the dealer is going to put their monkeys on the job and treat your brand new car the same way as the oul one with a 10 year old Golf. Likely they will manage to leave a rattle or two behind them too.

Stick to your guns and play hard. Cannot see any chance in you getting a new car but you can likely get a fair amount more out of them.

Best of Luck. Customer is King! Don't forget that.

0230774

Paddy Driver is correct. Your best bet is to stay on-side with the dealer. It is a near impossibility to get a refund but if you keep a good working relationship with the dealer, they will be more than happy to rectify the situation. If not, contact the SIMI.

Drummerboy08

OP, you can forget about the bullsh1t advice of pushing for an extra's year warranty.

There are massive fleet customers in Ireland and the UK with 100+ VW's on their fleet, and even they don't get an extra years warranty. VW won't be bothered about one customer with a turbo fault.

The best thing to do is allow the dealer to repair the car. Ask for the first 2 or 3 services to be carried out FOC.

I would also, in writing, point out that you have lost confidence in the car.

One of two things will happen. The ar will be repaired and you'l have many miles of trouble free motoring, or the car will never be right.

If it's the second case, you've already laid the foundation to reject the car.

paddydriver

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

OP, you can forget about the bullsh1t advice of pushing for an extra's year warranty.

There are massive fleet customers in Ireland and the UK with 100+ VW's on their fleet, and even they don't get an extra years warranty. VW won't be bothered about one customer with a turbo fault.

Who said anything about VW providing the 3 year warranty? What does the dealer prefer - the hassle of dealing with a customer that is insisting on returning their car or taking the path of least resistance and offering a token 3rd year warranty. Most dealers have extended warranty services and most also deal in 2nd hand and would therefore need to be in position to give extra warranty.

As above though - do document everything and keep a record of it and then send them a record of everything too so they know your not just forgetting about it.

coylemj

I think we need to step back and consider what it is we're talking about here. A car is a collection of components many of which operate independent of one another. If one of those components fails and the dealers replaces it with a brand new version and the car then operates as expected then there isn't much the OP can do beyond ask for some gesture of goodwill as compensation for the inconvenience. It would be completely unreasonable to ask for a full refund if the only fault is with a part that the dealer can replace in an hour or so.

You also need to read the sales contract you signed, I'm sure there's stuff there that deals with arbitration in the event that you are not happy with the remedy offered by the dealer.

Before any amateur lawyers come running back to say that the contract can't reduce his rights under the Sales of Goods etc. Act, I know this but I'm sure that the standard SIMI contract has clauses that lay out how disputes are to be tackled and the OP needs to read this document before talking about refunds or full (different car) replacement.

Drummerboy08

paddydriver wrote: »

Who said anything about VW providing the 3 year warranty? What does the dealer prefer - the hassle of dealing with a customer that is insisting on returning their car or taking the path of least resistance and offering a token 3rd year warranty. Most dealers have extended warranty services and most also deal in 2nd hand and would therefore need to be in position to give extra warranty.

As above though - do document everything and keep a record of it and then send them a record of everything too so they know your not just forgetting about it.

I'd be amazed if the dealer offers a third year warranty. In my experience of it, I've never seen it happen.

Henry Ford III

Is a turbo failure so early "normal"?

If I'd bought a new car and it broke down so soon, it'd take the "gloss" off the entire new car experience. Not too sure I'd trust or even like the repaired car either.

Perception is a big thing. If you think "I've bought a lemon here" you'll never ever be happy with it.

Vicxas

Not to sound like an idiot, but im just glad this happened the OP in the first day or two and not a year or 2 later when Turbos can get pricey to replace...

TouchingVirus

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Is a turbo failure so early "normal"?

If I'd bought a new car and it broke down so soon, it'd take the "gloss" off the entire new car experience. Not too sure I'd trust or even like the repaired car either.

Perception is a big thing. If you think "I've bought a lemon here" you'll never ever be happy with it.

When it comes down to it, the customer's 'perception' they bought a lemon is not valid grounds for a rejection. It's quite obvious that the turbo shouldn't have got through QA because it failed so soon, it's not normal that a turbo failed after 2km. But it is an independent part, it has no bearing on the windscreen wipers for example, so if they stop working then it's a separate issue. Of course if more issues happen then the proof is there that the car is a dud and it's time to reject it.

Rejecting on a minor issue, no matter how soon, is unreasonable IMO and I'm fairly sure a judge would see it that way too.

Bruthal

andyseadog wrote: »

i hated having customers like this.

Customers like what? That want to know their rights and options when paying €23k or so for a brand new car which is defective? I am guessing you can only view it from a salesman point of view so.

L-M

I remember back in 08 my Uncle collected a new Focus in June. Some faults appeared in the car and they tried fixing it a few times to no avail. In August they finally agreed to give him a replacement and he got another new Focus (albeit in a different colour).

If they replace the turbo (which I can't imagine it being a big hassle for them) and another fault appears, then i'd look for a replacement.

Edit: Also the new turbo should be covered under manufacturers warranty itself, so yo should get a warranty on the turbo from the day it was installed (ie and extra week or two)

Bruthal

Limerick man wrote: »

Edit: Also the new turbo should be covered under manufacturers warranty itself, so yo should get a warranty on the turbo from the day it was installed (ie and extra week or two)

Its hard to see that being right anyway, you get a manufacturers warranty on all parts from the date of purchase of the car, not from the date of replacement of a new part thats under that warranty. If thats the case, what happens if you get a part replaced 6 months before warranty expires, still a full warranty on the newly replaced part from date its installed?

Different if you pay for a new part to be installed in the car, but that wont be happening while the car is under its own warranty.

L-M

Why wouldn't there be warranty on the part? It's a new part, therefore it gets warranty. It's like not like if your warranty ended today, and your 2 week old turbo goes tomorrow that it wouldn't be covered???

JustAddWater

slimjimmc wrote: »

It's a process of negotiation. If no middle ground can be agreed the consumer can seek a judgement from the S.C.C. In making their judgement the S.C.C. will consider whether either party's offer/demand is reasonable or unreasonable.

SCC no good here. SCC only covers claims up to €2k and unless the OP got a bargain then it's very doubtful the car was less than €2k

http://www.consumerconnect.ie/eng/Get_Your_Rights/Going_To_Court_Guide/

The amount of the claim must not exceed the sum of €2,000

whippet

Limerick man wrote: »

Why wouldn't there be warranty on the part? It's a new part, therefore it gets warranty. It's like not like if your warranty ended today, and your 2 week old turbo goes tomorrow that it wouldn't be covered???

if a part was replaced under warranty .. you have no recourse to look for a new 'full' warranty on the replaced part - as you didn't actually buy this replaced part from anyone. The only item that you would have bought would have been the car from day one.

Generally though, parts replaced under warranty would be covered under warranty for at least 90 days or when the orginal warranty expires which every comes last.

So, if a turbo goes after 18 months (6 months left on a 24 month warranty) the new replaced turbo would be covered only until the original 24 month warranty ran out.

The essence of the argument is that the customer has not purchased the replacement part, they only purchased the orignal part from the dealer.

Stevie Dakota

I'd be pissed if this happened to me, only as I know of people who have had turbos replaced (by main dealers) only to have other engine related troubles due to lousy workmanship.

OP, just keep a close eye on your car when you get it back, and have a good look around the engine bay for leaks, loose cables or anything that looks unusual.

Mechanics are also going to in and out of the car, so insist that everything is covered in plastic, steering wheel included, or else that new car smell will be no more...

bryaner

Voodoomelon wrote: »

You're twisting words, I wouldn't mind if it was a catastrophic failure of suspension, ECU or some major electrical problem, its a turbo.

Swap her out, job done, the car is still a high quality 20k car, the turbo just had a manufacturing fault.

Providing the impeller didn't disintegrate and get sucked into the head and cylinders and cause problems further down the line, personally I'd be looking for a new long motor and turbo..