Too many sets.

JoeyDoh

Hey,so basically i've been following a gym plan of 4 days a week 2 days devoted to chest/shoulders and the other 2 devoted to leg/back.

However in the gym on Sunday I received a helpful comment from a polish gentleman who I got talking to that I was doing far too many sets in my workouts.

His main gripe was that I was squating and deadlifting on the same day and following it up with the leg press and other various back exercises,his argument was I was overworking my body with so many compound exercises.

I have been following this workout since christmas and have made measurable strength and size gains, my question to you is,if I spread it out over more day would I see greater gains? Or should I stick to what I'm doing atm.

Chest/Shoulder day:
Dumbell Chest Press 3x6
Incline Chest Press 3x6
Military Press 5x5
Dumbell Flies 3x8
Incline Flies 3x8
Seated Shoulder press 3x8
Raised leg explosive clapping press ups 3x10
Lateral raises/ Dumbell Shrugs.

Chin ups(weighted), 2 bicep exercises.

Legs/Back Day:
Squats 5x5
Deadlifts 2 warmups sets,followed by 3x5 work sets
Leg press 3x8
Barbell rows 3x8
Leg Extensions 3x8
Wide grip pull ups, 3 sets,adding weight each time
Calves extensions
Inverted rows
Reverse Shrugs

Weighted Dips, skullcrushers, tricep pull down

Core work on a separate day.


Both workouts generally take 1hour -1 1/2 half depending on weighting times/mood

Am I doing too much? And if so should I spread it out into chest,legs,shoulder and back days?
Monday: Chest/shoulder
Tuesday: Leg/Back
Wednesday: Rest/Sprints
Thursday: Rest
Friday: Chest/shoulder
Saturday: Leg/Back
Sunday: Rest/ Sprints.

Any advice is much appreciated!

Scuba Ste

Listen to the helpful Polish gentleman.

JoeyDoh

Chest Day:
Dumbell Press 3x6
Incline Db press 3x6
Flies 3x8
Incline Flies 3x8
Raised leg Clapping pushups 3x10

Leg Day:
Squats 5x5
Leg Press 3x8
Bulgarian leg Squat 3x8
Leg Extension 3x8

Core/Bicep/Tricep Day:
Various Core exercises
Various Bicep/Tricep exercises(Dips,chinups,curls,skullcrushers etc)
All fitted into 45 min workout

Shoulders day:
Military Press 3x8 or 5x5?
Seated Shoulder Press 3x8
Lateral Raises Supersetted with Front raises 3x8
Dumbell Shrugs 3x12

Back Day:
Deadlift 2 warmup followed by heavy 3x5
Wide grip pullups 3 sets,various weights
Barbell Rows 3x8
Dumbell Rows 3x8
Inverted Rows.

Is this a more reasonable Split? And should I aim to get my workouts down to 45mins to 1 hour?

deadlybuzzman

fair play to the polish gent. yeah that looks better. on leg day though after squats you have 3 exercises that work quads but none for hamstrings so have a look at that.
Having both barbell and dumbell rows might be a bit of overkill too. Overall definitely much better though!

Scuba Ste

Looks worse to me. You'd have to question how much effort you can put into the extra exercises, I mean if you squat fairly heavy are you going to get much from leg presses, split squats and leg extensions?

Deadlifts are a leg exercise not back but having them on a different day to squats is more sensible. Your still doing a tonne of pressing work compared to pulling. Pullups followed by barbell rows followed by dumbbell rows followed by inverted rows, again how beneficial is doing so much?

I thought the Polish was saying do less overall not more over more days.

If you feel the other workout is working for ye maybe stick with it.

deadlybuzzman

Scuba Ste wrote: »

Deadlifts are a leg exercise not back .

really? gotta say you're the 1st person Ive ever heard say that. In normal stance the legs definitely do alot but to say its not a back exercise.....?

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

really? gotta say you're the 1st person Ive ever heard say that. In normal stance the legs definitely do alot but to say its not a back exercise.....?

They're neither. And they're both.

JoeyDoh

Thanks for all the help so far!

Do you think if I was to add some variety into the days, say perhaps work each body party twice per week,

eg:
Shoulders(Major)/ Legs (Minor)
Military Press
Lateral/Front Raises
Shrugs
Leg extension
Hamstring work.

Then later in the week have
Legs(Major)/ Shoulders(Minor)
Squat
Leg press
Calves Exercises
Dumbell Shoulder Press supersetted with a lower weighted arnold press?

I know everyone is different but I'm just trying to get a feeling as what the general consensus on training regimes would be!

Brian?

No offence man but if you are unsure about how to build a routine, it's probably a good indication that you shouldn't be doing it.

Why not use find. A routine designed by someone who knows how?

JoeyDoh

No offence taken! You're perfectly right, I've not got the greatest knowledge with regards building a routine.

Cheers

Mellor

There's plenty of acceptable routine out there.
I don't think you need all those minor excercises. You'd be fine with just the main coumpounds tbh

compaqlaptop1

briankeating wrote: »

No offence man but if you are unsure about how to build a routine, it's probably a good indication that you shouldn't be doing it.

Why not use find. A routine designed by someone who knows how?

+1.

I think you should get yourself a tried and trusted routine thats been put together by someone who is at the top of their field, whether it be for strength, bodybuilding, etc...it is guaranteed to give better results.

I used to make my own routines until I realised that anything I come up with is not going to be nearly as good as what an elite coach/athlete who has been doing it for years or decades and who has ten times more knowledge than me comes up with.

shootermacg

Fair play to you. I'd personally be shagged even attempting that kind of volume. I'd doubt you are currently able to give all the presses 100%.
If I spend more than an hour in the gym I find myself starting to wane. I like Doug's four day spread myself. You could use it as a starting point and add some more exercises to it (deads should be added to back day, don't know why he left that )

Justin1982

Positives:
If your making gains and you feel that your able for your programme then I wouldnt be stressing too much. How are you measuring your progress?
What are your aims? Strength? Or bodybuilding?
How long have you been doing this programme?
It looks like a lot of volume currently. If your able for it and your lifting heavy and your making progress then thats a very good sign.

Negatives:
Nothing too negative really but it looks like your doing too many exercises. You dont need to be doing all the different exercises that target one muscle.
Raised leg Clapping pushups, these made me laugh. Sorry

Suggestions:
Go to Bodybuilding.com and get educated. It takes a while but its really worth it to know what your at.
Examine your diet. Very important. I know you didnt mention it here but just in case you dont know the facts about what you should be eating.
Powercleans, get them into any programme that you do! They are the king of all exercises in the gym.

Exercises:
Powercleans, Squats, Deadlifts - These are the key primary compound barbell exercises.
Pullups, Barbell Standing Overhead Press, Barbell Rows, Barbell Bench Press - Secondary exercises, I'd work these into programme around the primary exercises.
Personally, I dont bother with any other exercises except for the above. Do them correctly in a well designed programme and they'll make a man out of you

shootermacg

Power cleans very enjoyable, but I had to give them up because they were killing my shoulders joints, Rarely have I had joint pains after any exercise but these will do it to me every time.
Anyone else have this happen? And have you been able to figure out a way to get around it.

Scuba Ste

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

really? gotta say you're the 1st person Ive ever heard say that. In normal stance the legs definitely do alot but to say its not a back exercise.....?

I was probably generalising a bit too much there. I don't mean deadlifts are not a back exercise at all, it's a full body exercise really but I wouldn't ever consider it purely a back exercise.

In what stance are the legs not used a lot?

Justin1982

shootermacg wrote: »

Power cleans very enjoyable, but I had to give them up because they were killing my shoulders joints, Rarely have I had joint pains after any exercise but these will do it to me every time.
Anyone else have this happen? And have you been able to figure out a way to get around it.

Cant say for definite.
I get joint pains in my elbow when I do them sometimes. Its basically cos my form is not perfect. When I get my elbows under the bar at the top of the exercise, I should be resting it on my chest, but due to lack of flexibility at the moment my arms are holding the weight so there is a lot of pressure on the elbow joint. Also seen as I was doing too many sets of arm work for a few weeks before I started into the cleans, my elbow joint was a bit weakened to start with.
It could be a similar problem for your self. Your shoulders could be a weak point that you may need to work on or your form could be slightly off. Get someone to spot you and see if they notice anything.
Alternatively, can you work at a lower weight and avoid the pain in shoulder that way?
There could be other reasons as well which I'm no expert on.

Hanley

Justin1982 wrote: »

Alternatively, can you work at a lower weight and avoid the pain in shoulder that way?

What's the point of doing power cleans at significantly sub max weights?

Hanley

Ugh actually I better expand...

If he can't do power cleans above say... *picks arbitrary number that sounds right outta the air*... 80%, then there's not much point in doing them.

They're never gonna be a great muscle building exercise, if you want to just get bigger in the areas involved there's easier ways to do it.

If you want to get more 'explosive' and use power cleans to train RFD, which is the reason most people do, then again there's no point operating under 80%. The load isn't significant enough to drive adaptation.

So the options are - work on whatever issue is causing the pain, and unless you've got someone experienced looking at you and working with you, it's probs not gonna be an option.

Orrrr you can train exercises that drive similar adaptations, box jumps, broad jumps etc etc... But without a good strength base you're not doing to have a much 'power' to train anyway.

So... for beginners, and in the OPs case I'm classing him in that bracket because I'm assuming he's not that strong, there's very little to be gained from power cleans. And you don't even get the benefit of practicing and learning the exercise to use down the road because most guys with no coaching are gonna make a balls of it and develop a ton of bad habits so the exercise never really does what it's supposed to do for them.

I wish people could just read my mind and I didn't have to explain stuff!

shootermacg

I have been staying away from them recently. I would say it's form alright.
Still at this point I can't afford to screw up my shoulders, so I'll let them be.
I was using them as a bit of an alternate to upright rows on shoulder day to mix things up. So upright rows will do fine, I've had plenty of injuries(was wearing a wrist strap for about a year) Now my first reaction when it comes to joint pain is to back away.

Hanley

If you've a history of bad shoulders stay away from upright rows.

You've already got tonnes of shoulder stuff in there anyway.

deadlybuzzman

Scuba Ste wrote: »

I was probably generalising a bit too much there. I don't mean deadlifts are not a back exercise at all, it's a full body exercise really but I wouldn't ever consider it purely a back exercise.

In what stance are the legs not used a lot?

I wouldnt go as far as saying theyre not used alot but by going sumo theyre used less

Brian?

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying theyre not used alot but by going sumo theyre used less

Not entirely correct, as afar as I know pulling sumo takes the emphasis off the quads and onto the glutes and hams.

Hanley

deadlybuzzman wrote: »

I wouldnt go as far as saying theyre not used alot but by going sumo theyre used less

A good sumo deadlift is pretty much 100% hips and legs.

deadlybuzzman

briankeating wrote: »

Not entirely correct, as afar as I know pulling sumo takes the emphasis off the quads and onto the glutes and hams.

agreed, come to think of it Im wondering why I dont do it more as thats exactly where I want to start hitting harder. Thats something new for deadlift day!

Scuba Ste

Hanley wrote: »

A good sumo deadlift is pretty much 100% hips and legs.

That's what I would have thought. I've never used a sumo stance but I'd think being more upright keeps the back out of it more.

shootermacg wrote:

I have been staying away from them recently. I would say it's form alright.
Still at this point I can't afford to screw up my shoulders, so I'll let them be.
I was using them as a bit of an alternate to upright rows on shoulder day to mix things up. So upright rows will do fine, I've had plenty of injuries(was wearing a wrist strap for about a year) Now my first reaction when it comes to joint pain is to back away.

Not being smart but I'd say there's a fair chance your upright rowing the bar instead of cleaning it if it's hurting your shoulders and like Hanley said they can be sh*t for the shoulders. You might not but based on what most people think of as power cleans it's possible. Actually that you think they're an upright row alternative suggests your doing them with the emphasis on your shoulders so I'd definitely think your upright rowing them. Cleans are more a squat or deadlift alternative tbh, it's all hip extension.

Plus there's just a lot to get wrong with them and like anything, if your doing it wrong you could be more likely to injure yourself.

shootermacg

Scuba Ste wrote: »

That's what I would have thought. I've never used a sumo stance but I'd think being more upright keeps the back out of it more.


Not being smart but I'd say there's a fair chance your upright rowing the bar instead of cleaning it if it's hurting your shoulders and like Hanley said they can be sh*t for the shoulders. You might not but based on what most people think of as power cleans it's possible. Actually that you think they're an upright row alternative suggests your doing them with the emphasis on your shoulders so I'd definitely think your upright rowing them. Cleans are more a squat or deadlift alternative tbh, it's all hip extension.

Plus there's just a lot to get wrong with them and like anything, if your doing it wrong you could be more likely to injure yourself.

Agree totally, I'd say my form is shocking, i would say they do indeed start with a bit of a push off the legs and enter into an upright row rather than me getting under the bar. Probably using too much weight on them too.
As you say there's a lot that can be done wrong, I might restart them with only a few kg and work on my form.

Justin1982

Hanley wrote: »

What's the point of doing power cleans at significantly sub max weights?

What I was proposing was he reduce the weight to something he is comfortable with (as in a weight that isnt causing him pain/injury) and work his way back up over a period of time and see if the pain is still there when he gets back up to working in the >90% range. I think the term I should have used was "deload".
As well as that, if his form is not perfect then its probably best to work on the form for a few weeks at a low weight until you get form bang on and are comfortable enough to progress.