Bus Shelters

Clareboy

Why are bus shelters in this country built of such poor materials? They are only flimsy constructions of glass and light metals, which can be easily demolished by a few well placed kicks from a vandal's boot. In other countries, bus shelters are erected by the local authorities and they are designed to compliment the local architecture. In Ireland, they are erected up by a Dublin based advertising company. Bus shelters should be part of the local infrastucture like footpaths and street lighting. They are like everything else in the country - cheap, vulgar and plasticy. Many bus stops in rural areas do not have any kind of shelter. Its no wonder that people are not using public transport.

Run_to_da_hills

I guess its down to vandalism, alternatively you could have a solid reinforced concrete structure that would inevitably double up as a public toilet and magnet for graffiti artists.

One must also remember that many of these shelters are sponsored by Adshell advertising which would require glass panels which would be subject to vandalism.

It could be worse, in Scotland you can get a £1000 fine if you are caught smoking in a bus shelter.

Cookie_Monster

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

It could be worse, in Scotland you can get a £1000 fine if you are caught smoking in a bus shelter.

that's a great idea, but would be one more unenforced law and nothing more.

They're cheap cos they get destroyed so often, no point spend 100k's on something that'll only last 8 weeks before being smashed up. You can thank the knackers and scumbag of the country for that and the Gardai, courts, gov and parents for refusing to deal with them and their behaviour

BrianD

Most of the shelters used in Dublin are used internationally and are of the same design.

Unfortunately the glass is prone to being vandalised and when replaced with plexiglass looks cheap.

They newer Adshel shelters look very modern and befitting of a capital city. However, I have heard that there are no shelters in some parts of the city centre due to a lack of agreement on the shelters complimenting the local architecture. There are plenty of other countries where the provision of bus shelters is by a provide company and not the local authority.

Victor

There are some early 20th century concrete bus shelters out there, but its a long time since I've seen one.

Quite a few bus shelters in Dublin City Centre are owned by the council.

bk

All bus shelters and bus stops should be owned and maintained either by the Dublin City Councils or the NTA.

They should be a shared resource used by all bus companies, including DB, BE and the private operators, regulated by the NTA.

Dublin city has far too much street furniture and junk that clutters up the city center and makes it look less attractive. The recent installation of the RTPI signs just adds to that clutter.

Bus shelters shouldn't exist in the city center, you shouldn't have to wait long for a bus and should only exist in the suburbs of the city where there is a long wait for a bus.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

All bus shelters and bus stops should be owned and maintained either by the Dublin City Councils or the NTA.

They should be a shared resource used by all bus companies, including DB, BE and the private operators, regulated by the NTA.

Dublin city has far too much street furniture and junk that clutters up the city center and makes it look less attractive. The recent installation of the RTPI signs just adds to that clutter.

Bus shelters shouldn't exist in the city center, you shouldn't have to wait long for a bus and should only exist in the suburbs of the city where there is a long wait for a bus.

So they should be an additional public expense rather than provided FOC as by Adshel in return for the advertising space?

I would agree with you that they should indeed be a common resource between operators - the current set up is nonsensical.

As for no shelters in the city centre - I could not disagree more.

Why would a person's wait time in the city be shorter than in the suburbs for the same route? That's pure nonsense! I have 20-30 minute gaps between buses on my route in both the city and in the suburbs.

Should I have to stand in the wind/rain as I have to do on O'Connell Street / D'Olier Street at times because DCC will not allow bus shelters to be installed unless they get the advertising revenues?

And as for the poor citizens waiting on a 4 or 7 on O'Connell Bridge? Are they not entitled to some shelter either?

I'm sorry, but the lack of provision of any shelter facilities on many city streets is disgraceful.

LXFlyer

BrianD wrote: »

Most of the shelters used in Dublin are used internationally and are of the same design.

Unfortunately the glass is prone to being vandalised and when replaced with plexiglass looks cheap.

They newer Adshel shelters look very modern and befitting of a capital city. However, I have heard that there are no shelters in some parts of the city centre due to a lack of agreement on the shelters complimenting the local architecture. There are plenty of other countries where the provision of bus shelters is by a provide company and not the local authority.

It's not the architecture - it's the advertising revenue. DCC want it.

Capt'n Midnight

They aren't bus shelters.
They are advertising billboards disguised as bus shelters.
Their function is to generate revenue, protecting fare paying pasengers from the elements is a secondary function.


Rules say they have to be transparent even when against a wall - hence the glass that used to get broken on a regular basis.

Clareboy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

They aren't bus shelters.
They are advertising billboards disguised as bus shelters.
Their function is to generate revenue, protecting fare paying pasengers from the elements is a secondary function.


Rules say they have to be transparent even when against a wall - hence the glass that used to get broken on a regular basis.

So true! Its a pity that our local authorities do not provide the shelters as part of the general street furniture. I have seen some lovely old bus shelters in parts of Spain that date back to the 1930s and are built in the same style as the local vernacular architecture. The ugly modern advertising shelters in this country are just typical of the attitude to public transport in general - " If you don't like it, well tough luck! ".

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

So they should be an additional public expense rather than provided FOC as by Adshel in return for the advertising space?

They could continue to be provided free of charge by Adshel *, they would just be owned by either DCC or the NTA and more effectively used by multiple bus operators.

We could get rid of ridiculous situation where you literally have three bus stop poles within a meter of one another for different bus operators. All would share one pole.

* Are you sure this is the case, is it not the case DB pay for and install the shelters and rent out the space to advertisers via Adshel.

lxflyer wrote: »

As for no shelters in the city centre - I could not disagree more.

Why would a person's wait time in the city be shorter than in the suburbs for the same route? That's pure nonsense! I have 20-30 minute gaps between buses on my route in both the city and in the suburbs.

Should I have to stand in the wind/rain as I have to do on O'Connell Street / D'Olier Street at times because DCC will not allow bus shelters to be installed unless they get the advertising revenues?

And as for the poor citizens waiting on a 4 or 7 on O'Connell Bridge? Are they not entitled to some shelter either?

I'm sorry, but the lack of provision of any shelter facilities on many city streets is disgraceful.

With the new RTPI signs you should be able to see that the bus is 20 minutes away and therefore step into a nearby shop/cafe, etc. while you wait.

In suburban areas there maybe no nearby shops, therefore the need for shelters.

DCC pretty much already enforce this policy. There are no bus shelters in the city center core, as their simply isn't enough room for bus shelters on crowded, narrow paths and there are often way more people waiting, then could be facilitated by bus shelters anyway.

Even on O'Connell St with it's wide paths, it would be normal for 30 people to be waiting at each bus stop, far more then a bus shelter could handle.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

They could continue to be provided free of charge by Adshel *, they would just be owned by either DCC or the NTA and more effectively used by multiple bus operators.

We could get rid of ridiculous situation where you literally have three bus stop poles within a meter of one another for different bus operators. All would share one pole.

* Are you sure this is the case, is it not the case DB pay for and install the shelters and rent out the space to advertisers via Adshel.



With the new RTPI signs you should be able to see that the bus is 20 minutes away and therefore step into a nearby shop/cafe, etc. while you wait.

In suburban areas there maybe no nearby shops, therefore the need for shelters.

DCC pretty much already enforce this policy. There are no bus shelters in the city center core, as their simply isn't enough room for bus shelters on crowded, narrow paths and there are often way more people waiting, then could be facilitated by bus shelters anyway.

Even on O'Connell St with it's wide paths, it would be normal for 30 people to be waiting at each bus stop, far more then a bus shelter could handle.

As I said above - I don't disagree regarding the crazy requirement of separate stops.

I am pretty sure Adshel provide the shelters FOC - that certainly was the case in the past.

With respect I will still disagree with you regarding the city centre. There are few places to go into and wait near O'Connell Street or D'Olier Street at 9, 10 or 11pm at night without incurring expense.

I do not think that it is too much to expect some form of shelter to be provided.

Look at central London - they manage shelters at every stop and they do not particularly impact on the landscape. They usually have the adverts facing parallel to the pavement edge so that the space taken up on the footpath by the structure is minimal.

Bus shelters in my view are one part of making using the bus an attractive proposition. Expecting people to stand in the wind and rain is not.

The DCC policy relates to advertising revenues - they have refused DB/Adshel permission to install shelters unless they get the revenue!

overshoot

hannover D-line has a great system, a standard frame construction, which is then clad in some material which references to its context. Its gonna cost more than a dublin bus shelter but it at least gives an area some identity.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/janthemanson/2510427009/in/photostream/
theres all 12 on someone's flicker account, they are black and white tho and dont show any context

L1011

Victor wrote: »

There are some early 20th century concrete bus shelters out there, but its a long time since I've seen one.

I'm nearly sure there's still a few not quite so "early" 20th century, but still precast concrete, ones in the 1950s sprawl areas of Dublin (Raheny, Harmonstown, Terenue, Templeogue areas roughly)

BrianD

FAIK Adshel/Clear Channel provide the shelters either free or subsidised. If you look at their web site you'll see the range of shelter types that they can provide.

It would make a lot of sense for the local authority to take control of the bus stops and do their own deal with an advertising contractor. This means we could have a stop with one shelter and sign serving a number of different bus companies and avoid the pavement clutter.

The local authorities control RTPI (hence they are stand alone displays and not integrated into the shelters) so why not the shelters?

Niles

BrianD wrote: »

It would make a lot of sense for the local authority to take control of the bus stops and do their own deal with an advertising contractor. This means we could have a stop with one shelter and sign serving a number of different bus companies and avoid the pavement clutter.

The local authorities control RTPI (hence they are stand alone displays and not integrated into the shelters) so why not the shelters?

Is this not already the case, at least in some situations? I recall when the issue was raised over there being no bus shelters in Arklow (there is one now) Bus Éireann claimed it was a matter for the local council, I would have thought it was the same in Dublin. Especially considering the stops used by a variety of operators.

BrianD

Niles wrote: »

Is this not already the case, at least in some situations? I recall when the issue was raised over there being no bus shelters in Arklow (there is one now) Bus Éireann claimed it was a matter for the local council, I would have thought it was the same in Dublin. Especially considering the stops used by a variety of operators.

It seems that in Dublin the bus shelters are provided by Dublin Bus or Bus Eireann. This would explain why you have situations you'll have a Dublin Bus shelter and then a few meters up the road an Aircoach stop and even other stops for other private operators. Looking at the DCC web site, all the applications for planning permission for shelters are by the bus company.

In Wicklow, all the bus stop applications are in the name of Bus Eireann. In the case you mentioned, it may have been that Wicklow CC had not yet granted permission for a shelter. Interesting that Clear Channel Ltd. is listed as the architect in some applications - they are also the advertising company.

Mind you it seems that the local authority can spend a fortune facilitating bus stops like this one for Bus Eireann that cost €170,000. The shelter itself was paid for by Bus Eireann and cost €30,000.

Victor

The bus companies and the advertising companies usually cooperate. The councils are unlikely to allow street furniture that the advertising companies dream up by themselves - you'd have a bus shelter every 5 metres.

BrianD wrote: »

The local authorities control RTPI (hence they are stand alone displays and not integrated into the shelters) so why not the shelters?

I'd love to see the bus pole and the RTPI poles integrated.

snappieT

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

no point spend 100k's on something

*ahem*

PseudoFamous

Clareboy wrote: »

In other countries, bus shelters are erected by the local authorities and they are designed to compliment the local architecture. In Ireland, they are erected up by a Dublin based advertising company.

From my experience, bus shelters in other countries tend to be either ugly cement monstrosities, or similar to the Adshel ones. A bonus to Adshel ones is the fact they don't cost the government a penny, when built in sensible places.

Clareboy wrote: »

They are only flimsy constructions of glass and light metals, which can be easily demolished by a few well placed kicks from a vandal's boot.

I was very surprised when they put a bus shelter on the Wexford Rd. in Arklow. I thought it would be kicked in in a matter of days. It's still there, a year later, with no damage done to it. On the same note, many shopping centres have flimsy glass and metal fronts, why aren't they kicked in?

Clareboy wrote: »

They are like everything else in the country - cheap, vulgar and plasticy.

I disagree entirely. My experience of Bus shelters shows the ones in Manchester and Liverpool to be of far, far worse on the design front than the ones in Ireland.

Clareboy wrote: »

Many bus stops in rural areas do not have any kind of shelter. Its no wonder that people are not using public transport.

Move to a decent urban area if you want decent public services. If you want to live in a sparsely populated area, you should know that you're denying yourself certain benefits. A friend of mine from Dunlavin was complaining about he couldn't get fibre broadband, and you could in Dublin. People who live in rural areas seem to think that infrastructure should be built to suit them, and this is causing far more problems than it's solving. Any normal government would outlaw construction and development outside of towns except in the interest of agriculture. There is no reason for you to have a bus which picks you up from your door outside Ballybackarsenowhere and brings you to work, and people who live in rural Ireland seem to have a hard time getting this into their skulls.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

I'd love to see the bus pole and the RTPI poles integrated.

+1 and like so many other cities, have the RTPI built into shelters sides/roofs

Niles

PseudoFamous wrote: »

I was very surprised when they put a bus shelter on the Wexford Rd. in Arklow. I thought it would be kicked in in a matter of days. It's still there, a year later, with no damage done to it. On the same note, many shopping centres have flimsy glass and metal fronts, why aren't they kicked in?

I was surprised too! The Knockmore stop is surely a candidate for one also, it sees a good bit of custom on weekday mornings. Not much room in the main street I suppose (at least not in the Dublin direction). Strangely Ferns had shelters (serving both directions) long before Arklow, and Gorey is still devoid of any!

As for it not being vandalized, yet it is surprising, not that I'm complaining! Though there doesn't seem to be as much, eh, "poor misguided souls" hanging around that area compared to other parts of the town. I can't imagine one surviving long at a certain other stop in Arklow.

bk

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

+1 and like so many other cities, have the RTPI built into shelters sides/roofs

+1 on the RTPI poles replacing bus stops.

The RTPI poles should become bus stops for the routes indicated. And should be bus stops for all operators including BE and private operators and not just DB.

All the other old bus stops should then be removed, nicely clearing up the city.

All non RTPI bus stops and shelters should be owned by DCC/NTA and they should be consolidated, allowing them to be used by all operators.

As for building RTPI signs into bus shelters, well there is another reason why they didn't want to do that (other then the bus shelters currently being owned by DB), they want the time table to be easily viewable from the road by passing cars, to help promote public transport to motorists.

BTW DCC really need to reduce the amount of road "junk" furniture on our fotopaths. They should also remove the paid parking ticket machines, going purely text/online system. Remove all the unnecessary paid parking signs and moving to road markings instead and move other paid parking signs, etc. to existing lighting poles.

Victor

The sign can't really be part of the shelter, as the message needs to be readable from inside the shelter. Its one of the problems with Luas stops - the shelters obstruct the view of the totem pole that has the next 'tram display'. Adding a projecting RTPI-style display onto the side of the totem might be useful.

charlemont

I think its real Irish the way Mahon Point bus stop has absolutely no shelter, Its on an incline and the wind howls down with added rain to make the waiting crowd feel even more looked after by Bus Éireann.

Its a very busy stop, I always see a large crowd there but no shelter and to make matters worse the next bus stop never has anyone at it and its got a grand bus shelter.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

The sign can't really be part of the shelter, as the message needs to be readable from inside the shelter. Its one of the problems with Luas stops - the shelters obstruct the view of the totem pole that has the next 'tram display'. Adding a projecting RTPI-style display onto the side of the totem might be useful.

I meant as in hang down from the roof, screen on both sides. On the side of the shelter away from the advert

roof
===============
|

---

Here
|
|seat
|

---

|

noelfirl

They tried that with the Q-time displays from a decade ago, some of them got vandalised and/or graffiti sprayed over due to their accesibility. At least with the current displays relatively high up on a pole there's a bit less risk of that happening.

cbl593h

snappieT wrote: »

*ahem*

One thing about the picture in that piece-why is "BUS" written on the ground coming from the wrong direction??? Exactly the same can be seen at the new bus stop opposite the WIT main campus in Waterford.

Back on topic,the glass in the shelter has been broke for 2 weeks and the council haven't even swept up the glass,let alone have Adshell/Clearchannel/whoever they are called this week been around.

BrianD

cbl593h wrote: »

One thing about the picture in that piece-why is "BUS" written on the ground coming from the wrong direction??? Exactly the same can be seen at the new bus stop opposite the WIT main campus in Waterford.

It's normally written at both ends of the box marking the stop. I presume it's because we don't have any rules regarding parking in the direction of travel.

cbl593h

BrianD wrote: »

It's normally written at both ends of the box marking the stop. I presume it's because we don't have any rules regarding parking in the direction of travel.

Or climbing out the fire escape when the bus drives on the wrong side of the road.......:D

LXFlyer

cbl593h wrote: »

One thing about the picture in that piece-why is "BUS" written on the ground coming from the wrong direction??? Exactly the same can be seen at the new bus stop opposite the WIT main campus in Waterford.

Back on topic,the glass in the shelter has been broke for 2 weeks and the council haven't even swept up the glass,let alone have Adshell/Clearchannel/whoever they are called this week been around.

Well have you given them a buzz / email to let them know?

They may not necessarily inspect every bus shelter every week - it could be monthly?

cbl593h

lxflyer wrote: »

Well have you given them a buzz / email to let them know?

They may not necessarily inspect every bus shelter every week - it could be monthly?

Rang Waterford Corpo.

parsi

charlemont wrote: »

I think its real Irish the way Mahon Point bus stop has absolutely no shelter, Its on an incline and the wind howls down with added rain to make the waiting crowd feel even more looked after by Bus Éireann.

Its a very busy stop, I always see a large crowd there but no shelter and to make matters worse the next bus stop never has anyone at it and its got a grand bus shelter.

I'm being pedantic but the next stop up ( outside RCI) is busy but the one after that is rarely used.

Of course the No.2 stop southbound in town doesn't have any shelter.