Finna Fails role in the Irish Recession(Articles,reports etc)

Seloth

Right firstly I'd like to state this is not a thread set up for a debate.Pretty much I'm posting it to find out if there are any credible papers/articles/reports etc that give FF role in the recession.

Now quite often we hear how FF are to blame but to be honest I've never heard many reasons as to why,besides people stating corruption,policy etc but neither of these are ever truly outlined.

Quite often FF does seem to get sole blame for the recession from Irish people(Especially on this site :pac:) ignoring factors such as the global recession,Bank corruption,the Property economy or Dept.Finance lacking.

Now again this is not a thread set out for debate or insult(Son dont post single post insults etc),I'm just hoping to see if anyone could provide me with direct reasons as I'd like to further understand this topic.

Thanks

later12

There is a list as long as your arm of articles, books and reports on this issue, and they do not always concur with one another. Such is politics, much of it is subjective and, at times the sequence of events and the interplay between factors can be opaque, rarely simplistic.

This is an interesting article which broadly summarises some important issues, pretty accurately I would say
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news/article/2010/nov/21/so-what-did-our-government-do-wrong-answer-everyth/

Then there are some reports which, although they do not necessarily blame Government in name, they describe the problems from which you can deduce or judge for yourself the extent to which Fianna Fail governments should be criticised.

If I were you I would start with The Honohan report, which although not a political analysis, gives an objective starting point from which one might ask the appropriate questions of the successive FF governments, and secure an objective insight into the general financial environment of that time, including that economic policy for which FF was responsible.
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBYQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bankinginquiry.gov.ie%2FThe%2520Irish%2520Banking%2520Crisis%2520Regulatory%2520and%2520Financial%2520Stability%2520Policy%25202003-2008.pdf&rct=j&q=honohan%20report&ei=TVrcTY30C5G7hAfJ5PmyDw&usg=AFQjCNFY9zvigCvXR1MYT51ozA3aHtExOQ&cad=rja

You could also read up on the Nyberg report, which is really an extension and a deepening of Honohan into the banking crisis and covers the 2008 Bank guarantee
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Ffocus%2F2011%2Fnyberg%2Findex.pdf&rct=j&q=nyberg%20report&ei=HVzcTYmRHIy3hAej2aizDw&usg=AFQjCNFDLL5h9lE-vc_vBKWXGBoQqnqv7g&cad=rja

The most insightful book that I have read on the crisis has been The FitzPatrick Tapes, which resulted from a series of interviews carried out with Sean FitzPatrick (you can rest assured that proceeds from the book will not go to Sean FitzPatrick) and although not a memoir, provide a fascinating insight into the world of a man who says he only ever happened to work in a bank because he wanted to secure a loan. The book has many references to Fianna Fail economic policy and gives a clear background to the crisis without assuming any specialist prior knowledge.

In general I would avoid more of our populist economic commentators who, although they are usually accurate on the fundamentals of government failures, do have an inclination towards histrionics and the use of emotive or populist language which may not always reflect the reality of a situation, or convey an accurate review.

Similiarly, FF have only recently left office and as yet there is no objective evaluation of their last three terms, and how they culminated in the Irish financial crisis, in publication. It will possibly take a few years before the blood has cooled for a publication which provides an honest historical analysis of that sort to arrive.

Drumpot

Unless we have a dictator ruling the country, as far as I know, only the people can elect a government or a lameass alternative opposition. .

To say "its all FF's fault" for crashing our economy is like ignoring the parents who consistantly gave their irresponsible son the keys to the car that the child eventually/inevitably drove into a wall. . If you keep ignoring the glaringly obvious warning signs and choose risk over prudency, you will most likely eventually pay down the road.

careca11

Drumpot wrote: »

Unless we have a dictator ruling the country, as far as I know, only the people can elect a government or a lameass alternative opposition. .

To say "its all FF's fault" for crashing our economy is like ignoring the parents who consistantly gave their irresponsible son the keys to the car that the child eventually/inevitably drove into a wall. . If you keep ignoring the glaringly obvious warning signs and choose risk over prudency, you will most likely eventually pay down the road.

FF did ignore all the warnings

what was it Bertie Ahern said in 2007 " I'm amazed these maverick economists don't comment suicide" , this came out after McWilliams and others warned of an impending property and market crash

FF their advisor's Department of Fin officals ,the finanical Reg , the golden circle , the property developers, top bankers , are all the main culprits for the current recession ,

FF PREDICTED A SOFT LANDING just prior to the crash , and then buried their head in the sand , claiming everything was under control , nama was set up (renting a building from a property dev , that owed the bank's Millions) ,
things got worse by the day , but still the Gov had its head in the sand ,
it got worse and worse and worse .........................unempolyment at 450,000 , denied a bailout , 2 days before the bailout was annonounced (sold out soul to the devil)
then FF got the boot
and now FG and us taxpayer's have to clean up the mess (and so far we are pretty much getting nowhere fast)

later12

careca11 wrote: »

what was it Bertie Ahern said in 2007 " I'm amazed these maverick economists don't comment suicide" , this came out after McWilliams and others warned of an impending property and market crash

Between that interpretation and the equally bizarre interpretation that Ahern 'told people' to commit suicide, this is probably the most misquoted line from any Irish politician in recent times.

The actual quote
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/economy.html

"I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something"

Personally, I think the reference to suicide was in poor taste (clearly Ahern did too, he apologized), but I actually agree entirely with the spirit of what he was saying in terms of people who constantly moan, and moan, and moan, and to this day see their (often happenstance) predictions being realised as a justification to moan even more, and more and more.

**NI FEIDIR LINN!!!!!11!!!!**

Drumpot

careca11 wrote: »

FF did ignore all the warnings

what was it Bertie Ahern said in 2007 " I'm amazed these maverick economists don't comment suicide" , this came out after McWilliams and others warned of an impending property and market crash

FF their advisor's Department of Fin officals ,the finanical Reg , the golden circle , the property developers, top bankers , are all the main culprits for the current recession ,

FF PREDICTED A SOFT LANDING just prior to the crash , and then buried their head in the sand , claiming everything was under control , nama was set up (renting a building from a property dev , that owed the bank's Millions) ,
things got worse by the day , but still the Gov had its head in the sand ,
it got worse and worse and worse .........................unempolyment at 450,000 , denied a bailout , 2 days before the bailout was annonounced (sold out soul to the devil)
then FF got the boot
and now FG and us taxpayer's have to clean up the mess (and so far we are pretty much getting nowhere fast)

And what did the people do ? Hmmm . . Or were we all just innocent bystanders ? Did we not know about the Galway tent ? About Councellors (from all parties) rezoning every bit of land possible for building ? Were there not a few warning signs with some bank scandals that they could not be trusted ? (overcharging, poor financial advice etc). The reason that Jedward are front story news is not because they are important to the running of the country, its because they are what the people want to read. Likewise, people didnt want to read (or vote) about how our government were going to cut back on spending and put a halt to our "boom" because everybody was happy to go along with it while the going was good (or not bad).

Perhaps it would be a better country if we actually didnt just take what our government says as fact and actually showed interest and questioned their policies/comments ? Yes ? Maybe if , as a people, we encouraged , no demanded proper debate and clearly defined reasons why certain strategies were chosen over others, we might not be in this mess ? Maybe ? Ah but sure, X-Factor is on . . Sure Westlife are standing beside Bertie, so it must be true . . If the people of Ireland paid more attention to the substance (or lack of) in our politicians we might end up with better parties ? (not be demanding new ones!).

In fact, what exactly were FG and Lab promising in the 2007 election manifestos ? Were they promising to reel in spending and stop the property bubble ? I certainly remember them promising to spend more more more, which wouldnt of left us in a much better situation now . .

Basically, FF gave the people what they wanted and our opposition tried to promise us more (not try to enlighten us to the folly of our ways). .

Its like you have 6 great friends and they are always trying to outdo each other on a nights out, loads of drink, loads of laughs and loads of craic. Sometimes, things get a little wild, but nobody ever calls a halt as everybody is enjoying themselves. Sometimesy you wake up and wonder how somebody wasnt hurt, but sure it all worked out so lets just count down the days to the next night out!. If anybody has reservations on the night out, they dare not say it, or be on the end of a barrage of abuse from the partygoers. Then, somebody eventually gets hurt. Some of the lads say "well its not my fault he got injured, he is not my responsibility" and the more responsible ones think "god, I feel so bad because I could of helped prevent this by being a bit more prudent in our nights out and not trying to push things as far as they could go". I think this is a good representation of people who think not voting for FF in the past, obsolves them of any responsibility of how our country is today.

As leaders, FF take the blame for walking us through the halls of bankrupcy, but as the money drunk focused people that we were, we were only too happy to follow them down the path that has lead us to where we find ourselves now. How can we expect accountability in government, if as a people, that elects all representitives, we dont even take responsibility for our own role played ?

raymon

Another Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite the treason and corruption.

The lies, corruption , perjury, forgery , misrepresentation , tax evasion, is well documented.

In fact your present leader was putting political donations into his wife's bank account.
Your second in command was one of the architects of the financial treason.
Your third in command lied under oath.

Come on , stop trying to rewrite the past

johnnyskeleton

Seloth wrote: »

Now quite often we hear how FF are to blame but to be honest I've never heard many reasons as to why,besides people stating corruption,policy etc but neither of these are ever truly outlined.

The bank guarnatee, which made private banking debts a public responsibility, is the primary cause of our dire financial position. Here is an article about how Lenihan did it despite advice. Says it all really:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0716/breaking33.html

johnnyskeleton

later10 wrote: »

Personally, I think the reference to suicide was in poor taste (clearly Ahern did too, he apologized), but I actually agree entirely with the spirit of what he was saying in terms of people who constantly moan, and moan, and moan, and to this day see their (often happenstance) predictions being realised as a justification to moan even more, and more and more.

I think you've summed it up quite nicely. FF supporters think that anyone who disagrees with them is merely moaning, even when they are warning about serious impending disaster. It's good to see that there are some people out there who still believe that if it wasn't for all the negative publicity, we would still be riding high on the crest of the neverending celtic tiger wave.

loldog

Why are people still talking about Fianna Fáil? The electorate finally threw them in the bin at the last election.

Their core vote (the confused elderly) is dying off fast. Ireland is now going to develop a proper centre-left/centre-right political system, the politics of the scuts ands sleeveens is now dead.

.

later12

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I think you've summed it up quite nicely. FF supporters think that anyone who disagrees with them is merely moaning

Who said anything about either Fianna Fail supporters or dissenters?

I am talking, personally, about people who just moan constantly about the economic situation and have no logical proposals of how to change it, or can imagine no other response but complaining.

You'll notice that BA was not criticising FG, Labour or even Sinn Fein, as far as i can see, he was criticising those who moan to no end and fail to get involved or work out a solution. Although I disagree with the suicide comment, I find such a criticism perfectly appropriate generally.

It's good to see that there are some people out there who still believe that if it wasn't for all the negative publicity, we would still be riding high on the crest of the neverending celtic tiger wave.

Tell me where you are getting this from... seriously, where?

Drumpot

raymon wrote: »

Another Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite the treason and corruption.

The lies, corruption , perjury, forgery , misrepresentation , tax evasion, is well documented.

In fact your present leader was putting political donations into his wife's bank account.
Your second in command was one of the architects of the financial treason.
Your third in command lied under oath.

Come on , stop trying to rewrite the past

Im not a member of any party. To presume I am is to highlight that you simply cannot understand what I am saying.

Unless I am mistaken, I dont remember FF getting into power without the people of Ireland voting them in and I dont remember too many people marching on the streets when the good times were rolling.

Unless I am mistaken, there were plenty of corruption charges within politics, banks and property that never seemed to cause much outrage during the boom (where were all the FF haters ? Too busy enjoying the good times to bother getting onto their moral high horse, but in future years, these hindsight warriors will fight a good battle to denounce our FF villians when its too late!).

Unless I am mistaken, there were plenty of FG/Lab councellors only too happy to rezone land innaprorpiatly that dont seem to be held accountable .

Unless I am mistaken, I dont recall the public service giving out about benchmarking, that was funded by the private sector (namely the property sector), that was being pushed forward by our government. Ah the Galway tents, they annoyed so many, that well, nothing really happened did it ?

Unless I am mistaken, in 2007 Lab and FG were not promising to cut spending, higher taxes and bring a halt to the bubble, but in fact spend more . .

But sure maybe Im just making it up . . Nobody saw or heard anything that suggested things mightnt be stacking up . . The opposition partys were pleading with FF to stop the madness and the public service were forced to take money from a booming economy that was booming because of a few brown paper envelopes being passed around!

I can just see that part of the problem with our society, is its own ignorance to the role it played in our countries demise. . Your post pretty much confirms this sentiment. Thanks for reminding me that there are still many in this country who choose to learn nothing from the past . . .

dsmythy

Drumpot wrote: »

I can just see that part of the problem with our society, is its own ignorance to the role it played in our countries demise. . Your post pretty much confirms this sentiment. Thanks for reminding me that there are still many in this country who choose to learn nothing from the past . . .

I'm going to learn from the past. By never voting Fianna Fáil again.

later12

dsmythy wrote: »

I'm going to learn from the past. By never voting Fianna Fáil again.

Unfortunately, that's probably all that many people will really take away from this whole disaster.

Good, don't vote for a party engaging in the silly economic policies of FF, that's an excellent start. But what about personal responsibility, what about wage restraint, what about dodgy loans, what about personal choice, is the population prepared to face up to these responsibilities and take lessons from previous mistakes?

Kicking FF out on its tail was a good start, but it was only one quick event.
Unfortunately, many people seem to believe, or wish to believe, that the question of blame has now been answered, and will take nothing further away from this crisis. Of course FF were to blame - hugely so - but there were many, many very willing participants in the boom who, I would suggest, would be only too willing to go back to 2005 in the morning.

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

Unless we have a dictator ruling the country, as far as I know, only the people can elect a government or a lameass alternative opposition. .

To say "its all FF's fault" for crashing our economy is like ignoring the parents who consistantly gave their irresponsible son the keys to the car that the child eventually/inevitably drove into a wall. . If you keep ignoring the glaringly obvious warning signs and choose risk over prudency, you will most likely eventually pay down the road.

That's the problem though, isn't it?

Some of us didn't trust the son with the keys, but we were over-ruled, and yet we're being punished too.

As for FF's roles, they're pretty obvious - stoking the property fire, dismissing warnings, wasting cash, giving us bankers debts and their developer mates' properties, etc. And they STILL pretend that the property bubble will return.

Liam Byrne

later10 wrote: »

Personally, I think the reference to suicide was in poor taste (clearly Ahern did too, he apologized), but I actually agree entirely with the spirit of what he was saying in terms of !!!!**

Ahern's "apology" was farcical, because he still claims that no-one warned him, despite "apologising" for snidely undermining those who warned him!

He's like a rapist "apologising" to his victims while claiming he didn't rape anyone.

Mind you, his word is worth less than zero, and hopefully we'll see him suitably dealt with whenever the conveniently-years-late Mahon report finally arrives to be added to the OP's list.

Seloth

@Later10.Thanks for your genuine and helpful posts.

Jaysus effin Christ lads this is exactly what I said not to do...are ye effin half illiterate or somthing!!!

The first post was more than sufficient!Did we honestly need to create a feckin debate when stated and asked not to do so.I'd ike to come to Politics to debate, discus and talk about things rationally.Not have a feckin blame game where even the slightest mention of one party is Taboo.

Another Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite the treason and corruption.

The lies, corruption , perjury, forgery , misrepresentation , tax evasion, is well documented.

In fact your present leader was putting political donations into his wife's bank account.
Your second in command was one of the architects of the financial treason.
Your third in command lied under oath.

Come on , stop trying to rewrite the past

I'm sorry are you an idiot?How exactly is this an Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite history?You are honestly blind to your own stupidity!

I asked for people to provide clear examples of FF's role in the recession so I can understand it better.How in anyway did I try and re-write history by doing this or in anyway deny their role in it.

I'm sorry but maybe your the one who needs to do the history lesson before jumping on a bandwagon.Yes I'm in Ogra FF(Which has nothing to do with this thread), joining just a few months ago infact,but instead of hearing blind accusations from people who dont know squat that scream FF caused this recession and dont give reasons why, I'd rather hear it from people who can explain what went wrong and give adequate reasons as to how they played an heavy role in this.I'd like to learn the truth rather than the four reasons which in general people give which are "They are corrupt greedy idiotic *****!" and when you ask how they just simply repeat that statement with maybe one or two facts,yet knowing little of the opposition at the times plans etc or how FF directly aided in Irelands economic "Downfall".

And just to add did you read those parts about Martin wifes bank account off a tabloid headline/intro and never follow them up again?You are everything that is wrong with the Irish electorate.You claim the Irish people are blind for voting FF over and over yet you walk on the same tracks of lunacy.

I'm sorry but I laugh when people say they will never vote for FF in their lives.In the near future I can perfectly understand but forever...Lol I'm sorry but thats just comical.Why I find it comical is that in general its the same people who say that the only people who vote for FF are idiots or those who's parents did which then presents the comical scenario where later in your life you could fully agree with FF proposals but simply because they "Dun goof'd" many moons ago,with different people totally involved at the time you decide not to vote.That is the exact same thing.But I'm guessing your one of those who assume that because anyone who joins FF,Including myself as I stated up further that we are corrupt greed ridden bastards who know nothing.I'm sure if you met myself or any others in the youth branch you'd be quite surprised and if you made contact with our friends or any that know us you'd be laughed away at such stupidity.Now I'm not claiming you are but in general those who say it are.My Father is outright against FF,he feels they destroyed the agricultural industry of Ireland(Being a farmer himself) and dislikes very much the fact that I have joined said party but even he would never say he'd never vote for them again as that is just plain ignorance.

Now lads please.I asked for papers,articles,documents,reports etc.Not...and I repeat NOT a debate.I know its a bit much asking this over boards but have a bit of cop on will ye.


Even if you gaved biased reports or whatever that would have been more sufficient that this argument.So can we please get this back to being civil.

...Or will people even bother to read this and just continue to argue :rolleyes:

Edit-I cant believe I even bothered to reply ><

end a eknny

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the problem though, isn't it?

Some of us didn't trust the son with the keys, but we were over-ruled, and yet we're being punished too.

As for FF's roles, they're pretty obvious - stoking the property fire, dismissing warnings, wasting cash, giving us bankers debts and their developer mates' properties, etc. And they STILL pretend that the property bubble will return.

liam you claim that you werent involved and shouldnt be punished. but that clearly isnt true. for one if you where in employment you where probably getting a wage higher than most of your european counterparts, a wage that wasnt justifiable, did you complain, did you say you didnt want it, did you give it back. if you where unemployed then you where simalarily getting paid an unjustifiable sum much greater than european counterparts. actually what punishment are you actually taking because the wages and welfare payments or still too high and will mean that instead of taking drops incremently there will come a time when they will drop drastically and then there will be some moaning.sure the first thing this overment was to raise the minimum wage

careca11

Some people on this thread ( like the OP) seem to be still living in cloud cuckoo land ,

The Government where in charge of the economy ................................THE BUCK STOP'S WITH THEM

Bertie Ahern , Brian Clowen , the financial regulator's , Seanie Fitz , Drumm , etc , etc
Economic Terrorists the lot of them

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That's the problem though, isn't it?

Some of us didn't trust the son with the keys, but we were over-ruled, and yet we're being punished too.

As for FF's roles, they're pretty obvious - stoking the property fire, dismissing warnings, wasting cash, giving us bankers debts and their developer mates' properties, etc. And they STILL pretend that the property bubble will return.

But being the quiet housewife that doesnt protest your concerns while the husband gives the keys to the son, doesnt mean people can ignore what they did or didnt do to try and change the status quo.

Nothing our opposition party did or tried to do suggested they would of done things differantly. And saying that they didnt have the opportunity proves nothing. They tried to get into power by promising more goodies and didnt at any stage strongly suggest they would call a halt to all this madness this is the only way we can try to gauge what they might of done or what might have happened had we chosen an alternative to FF. Unless of course you are suggesting they were lieing to the electorate in 2007 and had they gotten in they would of trumped us all with prudent policies against our wishes ?

My main point is that people seem to have learned little from the whole crisis. FF facilitated the desires of its people and the opposition parties promised anything to try and get into power. Nothing absolves FF of their actions or responsibilities, but ignorance on behalf of the electorate (of all parties) is not an excuse. Responsibility should start from the top and only the people of the country can elect a government and a lame opposition party. If you voted for anybody or didnt vote, you didnt do much to encourage change or a halt to what went on as few (if any) we were heading for a huge collapse. One could actually argue that in 2007 when FG/Lab were promising the soon/moon and stars, we might of ended up with an even bigger deficit by the time the crash started.

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Unless I am mistaken, I dont remember FF getting into power without the people of Ireland voting them in and I dont remember too many people marching on the streets when the good times were rolling.

Ah this old 'we are all to blame' chestnut again. When will you stop banging that drum? We are to blame for our personal finances, the government is to blame for our national finances. The information exchange from government is controlled and was overwhelmingly optimistic with talk of fully capitalised banks, strong sound fundamentals and soft landings.

I don't hear patients who are told they don't have cancer complain, oddly enough it's those who are told they don't have cancer and then it turns out they do that are likely to be angry. We are angry now because we were sold a pup with the FF government. Can you agree the FF party were at best incompetent and cannot be trusted?

Funnily enough from an unrelated thread

Scofflaw wrote: »

Finding out whether a national government is cooking the books is really beyond the powers of anybody bar that national government - if the government wants to hide the fact, it can and will do so.

end a eknny

Drumpot wrote: »

But being the quiet housewife that doesnt protest your concerns while the husband gives the keys to the son, doesnt mean people can ignore what they did or didnt do to try and change the status quo.

Nothing our opposition party did or tried to do suggested they would of done things differantly. And saying that they didnt have the opportunity proves nothing. They tried to get into power by promising more goodies and didnt at any stage strongly suggest they would call a halt to all this madness this is the only way we can try to gauge what they might of done or what might have happened had we chosen an alternative to FF. Unless of course you are suggesting they were lieing to the electorate in 2007 and had they gotten in they would of trumped us all with prudent policies against our wishes ?

My main point is that people seem to have learned little from the whole crisis. FF facilitated the desires of its people and the opposition parties promised anything to try and get into power. Nothing absolves FF of their actions or responsibilities, but ignorance on behalf of the electorate (of all parties) is not an excuse. Responsibility should start from the top and only the people of the country can elect a government and a lame opposition party. If you voted for anybody or didnt vote, you didnt do much to encourage change or a halt to what went on as few (if any) we were heading for a huge collapse. One could actually argue that in 2007 when FG/Lab were promising the soon/moon and stars, we might of ended up with an even bigger deficit by the time the crash started.

its quite possible they where lying in their 2007 manifesto they where certainly lying in their 2011 one

Laminations

@OP the fact you need to ask for 'evidence' so you can 'better understand it' calls your motivations into question so don't be surprised if people look for Ogra FF behind the curtain

Evidence abounds

Drumpot

careca11 wrote: »

Some people on this thread ( like the OP) seem to be still living in cloud cuckoo land ,

The Government where in charge of the economy ................................THE BUCK STOP'S WITH THEM

Bertie Ahern , Brian Clowen , the financial regulator's , Seanie Fitz , Drumm , etc , etc
Economic Terrorists the lot of them

And who gave the government the power ?

Who protested against cheap loans, against the Galway tent, against the expenses scandals, the bank scandals (overcharging etc), the wastage within the public service, the TD scandals ?

Ah but sure, you had no responsibility to care about how our country was being run . . Thats somebody elses job ! ! :rolleyes:

Voodoo_rasher

Seloth wrote: »

Right firstly I'd like to state this is not a thread set up for a debate.Pretty much I'm posting it to find out if there are any credible papers/articles/reports etc that give FF role in the recession.

Now quite often we hear how FF are to blame but to be honest I've never heard many reasons as to why,besides people stating corruption,policy etc but neither of these are ever truly outlined.

Quite often FF does seem to get sole blame for the recession from Irish people(Especially on this site :pac:) ignoring factors such as the global recession,Bank corruption,the Property economy or Dept.Finance lacking.

Now again this is not a thread set out for debate or insult(Son dont post single post insults etc),I'm just hoping to see if anyone could provide me with direct reasons as I'd like to further understand this topic.

Thanks

the soldiers of infamy govt kept hiding behind Lehman bro's collapse. In a way, luckily it did collapse (though not soon enough) ; otherwise the S.of I. would have been pumping up the 'bubble until...

Laminations

@OP

http://journalist.ie/2010/05/fianna-fail-laissez-faire-policy-led-to-our-downfall/

Laminations

A nice quiz, to test if you know how bad FF are for the country.

http://www.quizazz.com/quiz.php/825582/Fianna-Downfall-Quiz/

Voodoo_rasher

Laminations wrote: »

A nice quiz, to test if you know how bad FF are for the country.

http://www.quizazz.com/quiz.php/825582/Fianna-Downfall-Quiz/

just done this and my result:

mark of 71% & the recognition

"
you know a brown envelope when you see one" *guffaw!*, *chortle!*

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

Ah this old 'we are all to blame' chestnut again. When will you stop banging that drum? We are to blame for our personal finances, the government is to blame for our national finances. The information exchange from government is controlled and was overwhelmingly optimistic with talk of fully capitalised banks, strong sound fundamentals and soft landings.

I don't hear patients who are told they don't have cancer complain, oddly enough it's those who are told they don't have cancer and then it turns out they do that are likely to be angry. We are angry now because we were sold a pup with the FF government. Can you agree the FF party were at best incompetent and cannot be trusted?

Funnily enough from an unrelated thread

I most certainly do agree that FF were incompetent and lied. I agree that some of their highest level members were dodgy and treated the Irish people with complete contempt. I have no problem with people giving them a large slice of blame pie in this whole affair.

But, I also believe that as a people we ignored warning signs that things were not being done right.

On the point of FF cooking the books, I am not sure what this refers to, unless we are talking about the banks. The governments biggest mistake was trusting the banks in the first place. The banks lied and whatever government we had could only go on what they were being told. Maybe there is something I missed on this issue, I am open to correction on that one !

A huge problem with this country is the way people vote and who they vote for. People vote for candidates that promise them the most and say what they like to hear. The concept of debate and learning more about how our country is run, is lost on the majority. We should be trying to get as many people as possible involved in the politicial system. Until people change the way they vote , we will end up with alternative versions of the former FF party that people so despise, of that I have no doubt!

Seloth

Laminations wrote: »

@OP the fact you need to ask for 'evidence' so you can 'better understand it' calls your motivations into question so don't be surprised if people look for Ogra FF behind the curtain

Evidence abounds

I'm sorry but your twisting my words.Did I say evidence?No.

As I said I want to understand how they played a role in it.I did not say "Give me proof they were involved"

Jesus lads will ye stop the feckin argument please and start your own threads if ye wish to do so.

This thread honestly does make me depress for Irish politics as it shows how people clearly cant read or take in others ideas.Honestly I hope most of ye are only this radical over the internet as you all constantly dismiss others points while creating false ones that others haven said..for example me apparantly "Asking" for "Evidence" when I clearly explained multiple times how wish to understand it.This may b quite an over the top example but its like a german asking for stuff about the holocaust and then being called a denier of it(And the thread should fall from here with that mention hopefully)..thats how idiotic this thread has fallen ><

raymon

Seloth wrote: »

I'm sorry are you an idiot?How exactly is this an Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite history?You are honestly blind to your own stupidity!

Dear seloth , i am neither stupid or an idiot , but thank you for asking.

Also it is customary for people to learn how to spell before calling others illiterate.

As for the Ogra FF work , keep it up ...... great job

raymon

By the way let us know when Ogra FF has enough credible papers/articles/reports etc that give FF a role in the recession.

Sully

Wasn't there a link floating around during the election about this, there was an actual full list online?

transylman

Fianna fail are clearly the most responsible by far for the mess we are currently in, no doubt about it. Not just through their incompetence in not being able to run the country properly, but also in continually supporting members who were corrupt, and their well documented corrupt links to bankers and developers, which most likely impaired their ability to act in the best interests of the country.

Holding them responsible for what they have done and getting rid of them is a good first step to establishing a properly functioning country. The next steps will need to be taken by the current government and include

1. Urgently getting our budget in balance. Default (restructuring) is inevitable at this point, but our spending and income needs to be balanced when that time comes
2. Imprisoning some of the bankers who were clearly breaking laws, as well as investigations into the other major players
3. Establishing an independent economic body responsible for vetting government spending and developing new economic policy
4. A whole series of political reforms to ensure incompetents like the last lot never get a chance to do as much damage again.

I will be judging the current government by how they tackle these problems.

raymon

Drumpot wrote: »

Im not a member of any party. To presume I am is to highlight that you simply cannot understand what I am saying.
.

Drumpot ,the ogra FF comment was directed at the op, not you. He is a member of ogra FF .
Occasionally FF people start threads like this to try gloss over the murky past

Laminations

@OP

You have not been honest with your inquiry. You are a member of Ogra FF and so have obviously felt it appropriate to join the youth organisation of the party you now want to 'understand'. Tad late? Anyway you have your views on why the recession happened

Seloth wrote: »

Ok I'm gonna go a bit out of my way even though I said this little debate should stop but Monty honestly you cant blame the past on someone in the present(By which I mean in reference to the future of said party))If you take a little look back both FG and Lab had similar economic plans(Least forgetting this was a global recession with Ireland being a small open economy relying on larger ones) to FF,and even FG gave out to FF for not spending more money.

I think you ticked all FF buzzwords

All parties wouldve done the same
It was a global recession
Look to the future, ignore the past

Personally I joined FF as like it's centralist views and that its beginning to reform.while FG does have some great people as does FF its party views and leadership are not to my liking.SF,well they seem to have a more primary goal and labor,despite being a left party are very conservative.ULA,well they are a bit too extreme to my liking

You don't care what FF have done to this country, you like their 'centralist (some may read as populist) views.

thebman

It does seem the only people that don't blame FF for the recession, are those in the organisation.

Still in denial then, good luck with that reform :pac:

jmayo

Seloth wrote: »

...

Jaysus effin Christ lads this is exactly what I said not to do...are ye effin half illiterate or somthing!!!

Pot kettle ?

Seloth wrote: »

The first post was more than sufficient!Did we honestly need to create a feckin debate when stated and asked not to do so.I'd ike to come to Politics to debate, discus and talk about things rationally.Not have a feckin blame game where even the slightest mention of one party is Taboo.

No you came here to try and push BS and when we don't buy that BS you then insult us.

Eh what is wrong with blame when it is well founded and well aimed ?
I can't wait to see your opinions on criminal punishment.
Would you rather we don't blame anyone, but play some silly game of yours.

Seloth wrote: »

I'm sorry are you an idiot?How exactly is this an Ogra FF thread trying to rewrite history?You are honestly blind to your own stupidity!

Ehhh nice to see ogra soldiers of dysentery are still attracting such non arrogant types.

Seloth wrote: »

I asked for people to provide clear examples of FF's role in the recession ....

THEY WERE IN CHARGE.
THEY WERE THE ONES DECIDING POLICY.
THEY WERE THE PRIMARY GOVERNMENT PARTY THAT CREATED THE
BUBBLE, MISMANAGED THE BUDGET AND FAILED TO REGULATE THE BANKS.

Now do I need to continue shouting the bleedin obvious ?

Seloth wrote: »

...
Yes I'm in Ogra FF(Which has nothing to do with this thread), joining just a few months ago infact,

That confession makes your attack on raymon all the more ridiculous.

Seloth wrote: »

And just to add did you read those parts about Martin wifes bank account off a tabloid headline/intro and never follow them up again?

Please tell us the follow up to that one ?
Did martin not have his own bank accounts ala bertie ?
Please tell us why a young TD had been half the average industrial wage by a property developer, a property developer that was later to be linked to charges of corruption with future taoiseach ?

Seloth wrote: »

Now lads please.I asked for papers,articles,documents,reports etc.Not...and I repeat NOT a debate.I know its a bit much asking this over boards but have a bit of cop on will ye.

The more I read you the more I think your comic talents are wasted.

end a eknny wrote: »

liam you claim that you werent involved and shouldnt be punished. but that clearly isnt true. for one if you where in employment you where probably getting a wage higher than most of your european counterparts, a wage that wasnt justifiable, did you complain, did you say you didnt want it, did you give it back. if you where unemployed then you where simalarily getting paid an unjustifiable sum much greater than european counterparts. actually what punishment are you actually taking because the wages and welfare payments or still too high and will mean that instead of taking drops incremently there will come a time when they will drop drastically and then there will be some moaning.sure the first thing this overment was to raise the minimum wage

So basically anyone that lived and worked here is responsible ?

Laminations wrote: »

A nice quiz, to test if you know how bad FF are for the country.

http://www.quizazz.com/quiz.php/825582/Fianna-Downfall-Quiz/

81% the questions on bertie's women got me.
Nice to see foley, o' keefe and ellis included.
Fine ffers who screwed us.

Seloth wrote: »

I'm sorry but your twisting my words.Did I say evidence?No.

As I said I want to understand how they played a role in it.

You do know they were in government from 1997 to 2011 ?
And you do know the role the government plays in running the country ?

Sorry that should have been ...
You do know the role the government used to play in running the country before the last government caused us to be beholden to IMF/ECB ?

Seloth wrote: »

This thread honestly does make me depress for Irish politics as it shows how people clearly cant read or take in others ideas...
And the thread should fall from here with that mention hopefully)..thats how idiotic this thread has fallen ><

Imagine how depressed it makes most of us when we hear that young people are still joing the party that wrecked our country ?

I reckon this thread was idiotic from the start.

Drumpot

raymon wrote: »

Drumpot ,the ogra FF comment was directed at the op, not you. He is a member of ogra FF .
Occasionally FF people start threads like this to try gloss over the murky past

My bad ! Sorry ! !

Drumpot

jmayo wrote: »

Imagine how depressed it makes most of us when we hear that young people are still joing the party that wrecked our country ?

I reckon this thread was idiotic from the start.

I am depressed because I dont feel confident joining ANY party and I would like to get involved in politics in some form . . I just dont trust any of them to do whats right. .

end a eknny

of course it was all fianna fail problem. they where definetly to blame for the world recession. why do people forget that we are a small island on the very outskirts of europe.without any natural resources and we priced ourselves out of the job market through pure greed. we where never a rich country and never will be. if people think things are bad here take a look at the standard of living in america or britain i think irish people are just good whingers

Hermy

We do have natural resources and the worldwide recession is only part of the Irish problem.

end a eknny

Hermy wrote: »

We do have natural resources and the worldwide recession is only part of the Irish problem.

what natural resources

later12

end a eknny wrote: »

of course it was all fianna fail problem. they where definetly to blame for the world recession.

and they eat babies.

Drumpot

end a eknny wrote: »

what natural resources

Gas my friend . .

We have loads of cows (and we know cows are full of gas) in this country, unfortunatley a byproduct of this is that Ireland is full of Bullsh*t . .

Liam Byrne

end a eknny wrote: »

liam you claim that you werent involved and shouldnt be punished. but that clearly isnt true. for one if you where in employment you where probably getting a wage higher than most of your european counterparts, a wage that wasnt justifiable, did you complain, did you say you didnt want it, did you give it back. if you where unemployed then you where simalarily getting paid an unjustifiable sum much greater than european counterparts. actually what punishment are you actually taking because the wages and welfare payments or still too high and will mean that instead of taking drops incremently there will come a time when they will drop drastically and then there will be some moaning.sure the first thing this overment was to raise the minimum wage

Pathetic.

You claim "clearly isn't true" and then you state two examples that have the word "if" in them.

Neither of the statements with the if in them are applicable.

So therefore your entire post is nonsense.

I work for myself - have done since 2001 - and I never took "a wage that wasnt justifiable"; I therefore had no reason to "complain", "say I didn't want it", and I didn't give it back because I didn't rip people off.

So I'd advise looking up the definitions of "if" and "clearly" before talking rubbish.

Liam Byrne

end a eknny wrote: »

of course it was all fianna fail problem. they where definetly to blame for the world recession.

No-one claimed they were. But remind me again why FF fuelled the boom ? Remind me again why the world recession has hit Ireland so, so badly ? Remind me again why Ahern didn't bother his arse taking heed of the warnings to the point of wondering publicly why they didn't commit suicide.

end a eknny wrote: »

we priced ourselves out of the job market through pure greed.

No, we didn't. We priced ourselves out of the market because FF pushed policies whereby the price of houses were pitched to make maximum profits for developers.

The people working in this country then had to find ways to pay for a roof over their heads.

end a eknny wrote: »

i think irish people are just good whingers

Ah yes......complaining about the debts of bankers and developers being foisted on us by FF is just "whinging" :rolleyes:

Most decent people in this country can pay THEIR OWN debts; those who budgetted properly and acted sensibly. I turned down an "extra" €35,000 on a loan because I knew I couldn't afford it.....the bank said it would "only" be an extra €400 a month. I said no.

And yet FF and their apologists blame me, and rip money from my wages through their USC tax and increased road tax and other ****e, making my earlier budgetting impossible, and all because THEY and THEIR MATES couldn't act sensibly and wrote people warning them off as "whingers".

FF have a lot to answer for, and the "new" FF is a joke considering that the first thing Micheál Martin did was reinstate a perjuror onto his front bench.

Some things change, some stay the same......

galwayrush

end a eknny wrote: »

of course it was all fianna fail problem. they where definetly to blame for the world Irish recession. why do people forget that we are a small island on the very outskirts of europe.without any natural resources and we priced ourselves out of the job market through pure greed. we where never a rich country and never will be. if people think things are bad here take a look at the standard of living in america or britain i think irish people are just good whingers

Had to fix that for ya.
I know the FF people in general had/have massive megamelonia type problems, but to suggest they were responsible for a world wide recession is giving them way more credit than they deserve.

Liam Byrne

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

just done this and my result:

mark of 71% & the recognition

"
you know a brown envelope when you see one" *guffaw!*, *chortle!*

I got the same......although I've never seen one because I have ethics and don't hang out with the likes of Callely & Ahern & their cronies!

raymon

This thread is really turning into a trainwreck.

The op masquerading as an innocent punter asking if FF really caused the recession , unmasked as a bona fide Ogra FFer.

Once exposed as an imposter he launches attacks on everyone.

Meanwhile the old pro FFers appear to agree that FF didn't cause the collapse of our economy while the rest of the world rebounds nicely .

The arrogance of the ops posts is expected and traditional for FF

Not a very nice bunch at all

end a eknny

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Pathetic.

You claim "clearly isn't true" and then you state two examples that have the word "if" in them.

Neither of the statements with the if in them are applicable.

So therefore your entire post is nonsense.

I work for myself - have done since 2001 - and I never took "a wage that wasnt justifiable"; I therefore had no reason to "complain", "say I didn't want it", and I didn't give it back because I didn't rip people off.

So I'd advise looking up the definitions of "if" and "clearly" before talking rubbish.

there is no if's buts or maybes you have hit the nail on the head liam. see irish people have been ripping their fellow irish men off and while they often felt like they where ripped of they always felt justified in the price they where charging. despite it being twice what are nearest neighbours were charging. these are the same people who are nodding their heads and agreeing with cutting wages and welfare just not the ones applicable to them.