Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files

dlofnep

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has told the Dáil that the information supplied by the British government on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings is all the relevant information that they intend to supply.

Mr Kenny said he did not have the authority to instruct them to supply any other files they hold and he told Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin that he would have been provided with similar information when he was Minister for Foreign Affairs and he did not object.

Mr Martin said the position was unacceptable and he asked the Taoiseach if he had expressed such sentiments to British Prime Minister David Cameron.
He suggested the refusal to release documents was fueling conspiracy theories about what had happened and that the Taoiseach's response was weak and accused him of washing his hands of the issue.

Whatever about the friendship-building recent visit by The Queen and David Cameron, to continue to withhold information on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings is unacceptable. This act saw the needless murder of 33 civilians, and there has always been a strong suspicion of British state collusion.

We must look to the future, but that future must be built on mutual respect and trust. Withholding information on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings to our Government, after we extended our hand to the Queen at a great expense to the Irish tax payer is highly insulting.

If Britain really aspires to clear it's name in this matter, it would be forthcoming and hand over all of the information involved on the issue. The Oireachtas Committee on Justice called it originally an 'act of international terrorism colluded in by British Security Forces'. It's time to put this behind us, and for that to be possible - Britain must release the files. This is certainly not an unreasonable request.

KeithAFC

It seems to me the British government and also the Irish government have decided they have nothing else to say about this case. Otherwise, surely it would be opened up like Bloody Sunday was?

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

It seems to me the British government and also the Irish government have decided they have nothing else to say about this case. Otherwise, surely it would be opened up like Bloody Sunday was?

It would seem that way to you, wouldn't it? There are a number of cases which Britain has not re-opened or investigated correctly - Ballymurphy & Springhill are just two of those cases. The matter was voted on by a private members motion in the Dáil, in support of seeking the files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. If the Irish Government had nothing else to say about it, they would not have voted in support of the bill, nor would Enda Kenny have stated:

Enda Kenny wrote:

“I will continue to raise this issue with the British government in the interests of truth”

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

It would seem that way to you, wouldn't it? There are a number of cases which Britain has not re-opened or investigated correctly - Ballymurphy & Springhill are just two of those cases. The matter was voted on by a private members motion in the Dáil, in support of seeking the files on the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. If the Irish Government had nothing else to say about it, they would not have voted in support of the bill, nor would Enda Kenny have stated:

Its the same with many Protestant/Unionist cases too Dlofnep. Everyone wants justice if we can get it but we can't. Time to let it go. The war is over. Its time to draw a line in the sand to be honest.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Everyone wants justice if we can get it but we can't.

Um, they can get it. That's the point. Britain is withholding information, which may implicate it in state collusion.

Godge

I would hope that the British Government would either release further information or confirm that there is no further information to release. We do not need this attempt to cover things up. Justice must be seen to be done.

Similarly, I would hope that the IRA (or whoever) would release any information in their possession on the killings of Mountbatten, McCabe, the disappeared and many other unsolved crimes so that similar justice could be seen to be done.

Would it be too much to expect for contributors to this thread to call for such release of information by both sides?

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Um, they can get it. That's the point. Britain is withholding information, which may implicate it in state collusion.

Um, no we can't. We have murderers in stormont and obviously information on them but everyone is working towards peace. Its in the past. Like i said, a line in the sand has to be drawn and has to be honest.

Bottle_of_Smoke

What's really pathetic is he isn't forcing Cameron to give an explanation for not releasing the files. Typical Paddy don't wanna rock the boat attitude.

SDLP/Sinn Fein should be holding them accountable through Westminister too.

Imagine the Irish government had information about an IRA atrocity in the UK and refused to hand it over. The British people and particularly the victims would be rightly outraged.

dlofnep

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

What's really pathetic is he isn't forcing Cameron to give an explanation for not releasing the files.

The issue would have even been discussed if it wasn't for a motion that forced Enda to discuss it. He would have let it slide otherwise. Withholding information on a terrorist attack is not the actions of a friend. We have gone above and beyond to normalise relations with Britain, but it is really disrespectful of them to not release these files.

My name is URL

Presumably they'd need to make their sources known too if they were releasing the files? Perhaps they feel that the risk of further retribution is too high..

dlofnep

My name is URL wrote: »

Presumably they'd need to make their sources known too if they were releasing the files? Perhaps they feel that the risk of further retribution is too high..

Should that be the basis for information disclosure? Fear what the backlash might be? What sort of justice system is that?

My name is URL

dlofnep wrote: »

Should that be the basis for information disclosure? Fear what the backlash might be? What sort of justice system is that?

No, absolutely not. And it's hard to know if that even is the reason for withholding the dossiers. But if it were, I could understand the reasoning behind it.. even though I don't agree with it.

The Scientician

KeithAFC wrote: »

Um, no we can't. We have murderers in stormont and obviously information on them but everyone is working towards peace. Its in the past. Like i said, a line in the sand has to be drawn and has to be honest.

The single bloodiest serious of atrocities of the Troubles, and you think a line should be drawn in the sand. I know our societies need to move on and forgiveness is key to that, but that doesn't mean we should just forget about what happened, nor should we stop trying to find out the truth of the matter. Official intransigence with regard to the case has been omnipresent since the events took place, hence there are people still almost 40 years later trying to find out all the available information.

The Waltzing Consumer

Lads, is it not possible that Britain has released all the files regarding the bombings and the only ones they are not handing over is files which may name informants etc.?

The one humorous thing about all of this is Gerry Adams.
""If that is true then the British Prime Minister, as a good neighbour, should respond positively to the request by all of the parties in the Dáil to that information being made available so that victims and families can have closure."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/adams-refusal-to-release-files-on-dublin-and-monaghan-bombs-wholly-unacceptable-506287.html

Fair enough if it was Mary Lou McDonald or some other young SF, but for the man named as the top PIRA leader by many politicians, authors, IRA members etc., and the man accused of ordering many deaths and god knows how many attacks and bombings, to start throwing mud for not giving information about one particular event is bizarre when he has spent his whole political life concealing information, giving many different accounts of events, lying and never fully coming clean about his role in the Troubles.

The Waltzing Consumer

The Scientician wrote: »

The single bloodiest serious of atrocities of the Troubles, and you think a line should be drawn in the sand. I know our societies need to move on and forgiveness is key to that, but that doesn't mean we should just forget about what happened, nor should we stop trying to find out the truth of the matter. Official intransigence with regard to the case has been omnipresent since the events took place, hence there are people still almost 40 years later trying to find out all the available information.

But would you not find that in any horrific attack, people, most often relatives, will spend years and years chasing the "truth". It may be a way of coping and they would certainly have my empathy, but are they not just looking for someone to blame even if the blame might not be there? Is this not just "chasing the dragon" for the bereaved? It is hard to see them ever catching the truth they really want, because what will satisfy them?

dlofnep

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

but are they not just looking for someone to blame even if the blame might not be there?

If Britain was not involved at a state level, then it has nothing to fear by releasing the files. But everyone, including our own Government (both past and present) suspects involvement from the British state - So with that being said, are you suggesting that the families of the bereaved are that desperate for justice, that they are conjuring up a conspiracy theory?

PomBear

So much for being in a peace process, British government show themselves to disregard any sight to progress in it. If they want to keep their dirty little secrets locked away like this, then they are holding back the peace process completely.

loldog

To be honest I think they should let this go.

.

LondonIrish90

dlofnep wrote: »

The issue would have even been discussed if it wasn't for a motion that forced Enda to discuss it. He would have let it slide otherwise. Withholding information on a terrorist attack is not the actions of a friend. We have gone above and beyond to normalise relations with Britain, but it is really disrespectful of them to not release these files.

Because normal relations with Britain are absolutely vital to Ireland's security and prosperity going forward. Nothing more to it than that.

Anyway, why would Cameron need to give an explanation as to why his government are withholding the files? In reality there could be all manner of reasons why the British government has decided not to as of yet. For Enda Kenny to go around demanding things from the British Prime Minister would not do the "close relationship" as both men called it last week any good.

dlofnep

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

For Enda Kenny to go around demanding things from the British Prime Minister would not do the "close relationship" as both men called it last week any good.

How dare our Taoiseach go around demanding files on the single largest terrorist atrocity of the troubles on Irish soil. What a brazen fella he is!

LondonIrish90

dlofnep wrote: »

How dare our Taoiseach go around demanding files on the single largest terrorist atrocity of the troubles on Irish soil. What a brazen fella he is!

Indeed. But would the British government necessarily see it in the same way?

The Scientician

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

But would you not find that in any horrific attack, people, most often relatives, will spend years and years chasing the "truth". It may be a way of coping and they would certainly have my empathy, but are they not just looking for someone to blame even if the blame might not be there? Is this not just "chasing the dragon" for the bereaved? It is hard to see them ever catching the truth they really want, because what will satisfy them?

That's a fair point. However, there are ongoing investigations into various Troubles-era deaths and I'm not a relative of a victim but I believe some (many?) have found some closure from knowing better what happened. I also think its their prerogative to pursue such actions even if it's ultimately a folly. Not entirely relevant in this particular instance, but in other cases, finding that their loved ones were in no way culpable in their own demises, helps. In many deaths, rumours were bandied about of people being terrorists, informers, and otherwise up to dodgy dealings, when in many instances this was not the case.

This attack was different in that it was an atypical attack for loyalists, in the Republic, ending in more casualties than any other atrocities, and there has always been the whiff of collusion about it for these reasons and more. Also, if collusion were confirmed, presumably compensation, or at the very least, an apology on the part of the British government would be appropriate.

dlofnep

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

Indeed. But would the British government necessarily see it in the same way?

In the interests of their reputation, one should hope so.

LordSutch

All this talk about Britain withholding files on the Dublin & Monaghan atrocities (plural) begs the question "Is Ireland withholding files on other atrocities"? Bloody Friday, Lord Mountbatten's murder, Garda McCabes murder, The Guildford bombings, etc, etc etc . . .

Is Ireland withholding files?

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

All this talk about Britain withholding files on the Dublin & Monaghan atrocities (plural) begs the question "Is Ireland withholding files on other atrocities"? Bloody Friday, Lord Mountbatten's murder, Garda McCabes murder, The Guildford bombings, etc, etc etc . . .

Is Ireland withholding files?

.....well, if you can't actually name an instance, that really puts you a good deal closer towards the probable answer.

Why did you feel compelled to do a 'But Ireland is....'? Is there some reason as an Irish citizen you feel the need to cover for the British failure to hand over the files?

Bottle_of_Smoke

LordSutch wrote: »

All this talk about Britain withholding files on the Dublin & Monaghan atrocities (plural) begs the question "Is Ireland withholding files on other atrocities"? Bloody Friday, Lord Mountbatten's murder, Garda McCabes murder, The Guildford bombings, etc, etc etc . . .

Is Ireland withholding files?

Off the top of my head McCabe's killer's were imprisoned. The Guilford bombing was admitted to by the IRA members who did it when on trial for other bombings in London.

I don't know the details of the other cases but the Irish government have generally been co-operative as they have always been staunchly anti-IRA with the exception of Haughey and the arms tribunal.

There's actually a tribunal ongoing into suspected collusion between gardai and IRA for the killing of a high ranking RUC man. A hardline unionist politician recently said he is very happy with the progress being made.

True Sinn Fein surely have info that could be of help to solving historical cases - but that is not comparable as they are not the Irish government.

I'm surprised you would go with the whataboutery answer on this topic to be honest. The victims of Dub/Mon were random civilians not IRA members

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

.....well, if you can't actually name an instance, that really puts you a good deal closer towards the probable answer.

Why did you feel compelled to do a 'But Ireland is....'? Is there some reason as an Irish citizen you feel the need to cover for the British failure to hand over the files?

My sole point is the misuse of the term 'Britain' as in "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" > hence my retort with the equally silly "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", that's all . . . .

I have no idea if the British or Irish governments are (or are not) withholding files on anything, I was just highlighting the silly use of the term 'Britain' which implies that there may be something inherrently corrupt about 'Britain' as opposed to certain authorties within Britain & Northern Ireland who are allegedly withholding files on two of the many atrocities comitted during the Troubles.

Bottle_of_Smoke

LordSutch wrote: »

My sole point is the misuse of the term 'Britain' as in "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" > hence my retort with the equally silly "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", that's all . . . .

I have no idea if the British or Irish governments are (or are not) withholding files on anything, I was just highlighting the silly use of the term 'Britain' which implies that there may be something inherrently corrupt about 'Britain' as opposed to certain authorties within Britain & Northern Ireland who are allegedly withholding files on two of the many atrocities comitted during the Troubles.

You genuinely thought the OP meant something other than the British government with the use of "Britain" in a post that references the British leader authorising release of files held on a bombing in Ireland? Pull the other one.

And it really doesnt look like that's what you meant in that post.

LordSutch

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You genuinely thought the OP meant something other than the British government with the use of "Britain" in a post that references the British leader authorising release of files held on a bombing in Ireland? Pull the other one.

Yes seriousy! I think its rediculous to say "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" in the same way as it would be equally misleading to say "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", just a small point about the term - thats all . . .

I would have titled the thread "British Government to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files".

lugha

dlofnep wrote: »

If Britain was not involved at a state level, then it has nothing to fear by releasing the files. But everyone, including our own Government (both past and present) suspects involvement from the British state

If the British were not involved then they can reasonably say we have no business asking for papers.

If they were involved then it is a little bit more than collusion. I don't see how a state conspiring to launch at attach of any kind on another sovereign state can be interpreted as anything other than an act of war. Whatever about the criminal aspect and any hope of holding someone accountable, I think on a political level, any Irish government would not be all too keen on having to deal with the fall out, in the unlikely event that Britain fesses up.

They won't want to compromise relations with GB but if they do nothing they, and the country, will look weak.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

My sole point is the misuse of the term 'Britain' as in "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" > hence my retort with the equally silly "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", that's all . . . .

I have no idea if the British or Irish governments are (or are not) withholding files on anything, I was just highlighting the silly use of the term 'Britain' which implies that there may be something inherrently corrupt about 'Britain' as opposed to certain authorties within Britain & Northern Ireland who are allegedly withholding files on two of the many atrocities comitted during the Troubles.

To use the colloquial - in me eye.

dlofnep

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes seriousy! I think its rediculous to say "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" in the same way as it would be equally misleading to say "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", just a small point about the term - thats all . . .

I would have titled the thread "British Government to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files".

You might take your faux-outrage up with RTÉ, who originally titled the news story as 'Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files': http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0524/bombings.html

The Scientician

LordSutch wrote: »

Yes seriousy! I think its rediculous to say "Britain to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files" in the same way as it would be equally misleading to say "Ireland to withhold etc etc etc", just a small point about the term - thats all . . .

I would have titled the thread "British Government to withhold Dublin-Monaghan files".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pars_pro_toto

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

To use the colloquial - in me eye.

If the Dublin Government was withholding files I would not expect the broadsheets in Britain to headline, "Ireland withholding files".

kelko1916

LordSutch wrote: »

If the Dublin Government was withholding files I would not expect the broadsheets in Britain to headline, "Ireland withholding files".

that is true , we would have headlines like ,
'' LYING PADDIES REFUSE TO HAND OVER TERROR FILES ''

LordSutch

kelko1916 wrote: »

that is true , we would have headlines like ,
'' LYING PADDIES REFUSE TO HAND OVER TERROR FILES ''

I said Broadsheets, not Tabloids :rolleyes:

dlofnep

LordSutch - Why are you deflecting from the issue at hand? The title is apt. It's quite clear that it is in reference to the British Government. If someone said "The United States launched an offensive against Afghani insurgents" - There is absolutely no way in hell you would be up here muddying the waters, because you'd know damn well that we'd mean The US armed forces on behalf of the US.

The fact that you're more worried about a news headline, rather than the issue at hand - Withholding files on the single largest terrorist attack of the troubles, says a lot.

Wise up, and enough of the red herrings.

KeithAFC

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Lads, is it not possible that Britain has released all the files regarding the bombings and the only ones they are not handing over is files which may name informants etc.?

The one humorous thing about all of this is Gerry Adams.
""If that is true then the British Prime Minister, as a good neighbour, should respond positively to the request by all of the parties in the Dáil to that information being made available so that victims and families can have closure."

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/adams-refusal-to-release-files-on-dublin-and-monaghan-bombs-wholly-unacceptable-506287.html

Fair enough if it was Mary Lou McDonald or some other young SF, but for the man named as the top PIRA leader by many politicians, authors, IRA members etc., and the man accused of ordering many deaths and god knows how many attacks and bombings, to start throwing mud for not giving information about one particular event is bizarre when he has spent his whole political life concealing information, giving many different accounts of events, lying and never fully coming clean about his role in the Troubles.

I can't stand the man. He should keep his mouth shut.

KeithAFC

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Off the top of my head McCabe's killer's were imprisoned. The Guilford bombing was admitted to by the IRA members who did it when on trial for other bombings in London.

I don't know the details of the other cases but the Irish government have generally been co-operative as they have always been staunchly anti-IRA with the exception of Haughey and the arms tribunal.

There's actually a tribunal ongoing into suspected collusion between gardai and IRA for the killing of a high ranking RUC man. A hardline unionist politician recently said he is very happy with the progress being made.

True Sinn Fein surely have info that could be of help to solving historical cases - but that is not comparable as they are not the Irish government.

I'm surprised you would go with the whataboutery answer on this topic to be honest. The victims of Dub/Mon were random civilians not IRA members

And so was the Shankill bombing, so was Claudy. Innocent people struck down. People need to let it go. I have come to terms now that the PUL community is being denied the information about the slaughter of many of our people.

The Irish government and UK government is looking to the future. If we look to the past, then a lot of people in stormont are going to be in trouble.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

And so was the Shankill bombing, so was Claudy. Innocent people struck down. People need to let it go. I have come to terms now that the PUL community is being denied the information about the slaughter of many of our people.

Care to cite examples of where your community is being denied information about the slaughter of your people by the Irish Government? I would love to hear them.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Care to cite examples of where your community is being denied information about the slaughter of your people by the Irish Government? I would love to hear them.

The British and Irish government is holding files on lots of incidents during the Troubles. Like Bloody Friday, Claudy (the inside job with that priest) and many more.

cardwizzard

IMO they have something to hide, otherwise they would hand them over and let the families see them. Why hide if you have nothing to hide from?

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

The British and Irish government is holding files on lots of incidents during the Troubles. Like Bloody Friday, Claudy (the inside job with that priest) and many more.

Give me a specific example, with sources of where the Irish Government is withholding files from the British Government on terrorist attacks, and where a British request for such files has been denied.

I want specifics, not made up fairy stories by Keith.

Sir Oxman

It's sounds horribly similar to the "appaling vista" crap that kept innocent Irish people behind bars in Britain not too long ago.
Kenny better not let down the relatives and friends of the victims, and the Irish public.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Give me a specific example, with sources of where the Irish Government is withholding files from the British Government on terrorist attacks, and where a British request for such files has been denied.

I want specifics, not made up fairy stories by Keith.

Irish Military Intelligence on the PIRA, Bloody Friday and who took part in it and who organised it. Gerry Adams involvment in the PIRA movement, his part in organising terrorist campaigns.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Irish Military Intelligence on the PIRA, Bloody Friday and who took part in it and who organised it. Gerry Adams involvment in the PIRA movement, his part in organising terrorist campaigns.

You didn't read my question - I asked you to show me specific examples (not made up Keith fairy stories), of where the British Government has requested files on terrorist attacks, and has been refused by the Irish Government. I highlighted the important part for you in bold, so that you don't conveniently fail to answer it for the third time.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

You didn't read my question - I asked you to show me specific examples (not made up Keith fairy stories), of where the British Government has requested files on terrorist attacks, and has been refused by the Irish Government. I highlighted the important part for you in bold, so that you don't conveniently fail to answer it for the third time.

I didn't say the British government WANTED Irish Government files. I said the Irish government are holding onto intelligence papers on incidents during the troubles. Most Irish Republicans on the ground would admit that.

Some even think a certain person in the Irish government helped the UVF during this bombing.

cardwizzard

KeithAFC wrote: »

I didn't say the British government WANTED Irish Government files. I said the Irish government are holding onto intelligence papers on incidents during the troubles. Most Irish Republicans on the ground would admit that.

Some even think a certain person in the Irish government helped the UVF during this bombing.

Lol.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

I didn't say the British government WANTED Irish Government files. I said the Irish government are holding onto intelligence papers on incidents during the troubles. Most Irish Republicans on the ground would admit that.

Of course they have intelligence papers on the troubles. Every state in the world has intelligence papers relating to any attacks on their soil. To not do so, would be irresponsible.

I asked you for an instance where the Irish Government has denied a request from the British Government to provide it with files relating to terrorist attacks. You could not do so.

The Irish Government have requested files pertaining to a terrorist attack on Irish soil which saw the deaths of 33 people, (34 if you include an unborn child) and which suspects British state involvement. The British Government refuses to hand over the said files, and thus - it is highly insulting, especially after the warm welcome the British state received last week.

I refuse to spend another thread going around in circles with you, on what everyone else except you, can see is a noteworthy issue. You've been placed back on my ignore list to avoid another thread being ruined by you.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course they have intelligence papers on the troubles. Every state in the world has intelligence papers relating to any attacks on their soil. To not do so, would be irresponsible.

I asked you for an instance where the Irish Government has denied a request from the British Government to provide it with files relating to terrorist attacks. You could not do so.

The Irish Government have requested files pertaining to a terrorist attack on Irish soil which saw the deaths of 33 people, (34 if you include an unborn child) and which suspects British state involvement. The British Government refuses to hand over the said files, and thus - it is highly insulting, especially after the warm welcome the British state received last week.

I refuse to spend another thread going around in circles with you, on what everyone else except you, can see is a noteworthy issue. You've been placed back on my ignore list to avoid another thread being ruined by you.

I didn't say the Irish government have rejected the British government from getting files. Perhaps you should read what is posted up.

Perhaps it is just time for you to come to terms with it and move on and into the future. Nothing is going to change. It was a disgraceful attack and waste of life but it happened. Collusion or no collusion (which i do doubt).

RMD

Not a wise move at all. This is going to piss off a lot of people, it gives off the message that there is sufficient evidence to prove collusion, they just don't want it known.

Gerry Adams is a fool getting involved, tell us Gerry if you're looking for hidden information, what was your main role in the Republican cause during the 70s? Hardly peaceful politics to say the least. Hypocritical scumbag.