A Champions League Playoff?

The Volt

http://www.teamtalk.com/arsenal/6949489/Prem-pondered-CL-play-off?

"" Premier League chiefs considered the idea of introducing a play-off for the competition's fourth and final Champions League berth.

The plan would have involved the teams finishing fourth through to seventh in the Premier League vying for the right to enter the qualifying rounds of Europe's elite club competition.

This season, that would have resulted in fourth-placed Arsenal facing Everton, who came seventh, and Tottenham (fifth) playing Liverpool (sixth), with the winners of those matches advancing to the play-off final.

According to a report in the Daily Telegraph, a number of top-flight clubs were in favour of the idea, although Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal are thought to have voiced opposition.

Premier League chief executive Richard Scudamore said: "We had a look at it. There was some interest but ultimately it was felt to stick with [the current system].""

Although this would have been good for my own interests I think it is a bit daft (Probably a bit daft that 4 teams qualify for the Champions League in the first place). I'd much rather see a place given to the FA Cup winners.

Kiwi_knock

Would have been interesting idea but probably a little unfair, could be a massive difference in points between the team that finishes 4th and the team in 7th.

everdead.ie

I'd much prefer to see the fourth spot awarded to the FA cup winners

GavRedKing

I wouldnt be in favour of it anyway TBH. The point difference between 4th through to 7th could be huge. Its a bit unfair for the team who have narrowly missed out on 3rd ( Arsenal this year ) to have to play 2 extra games that might see them not get into Europe at all.

Le King

It's fine the way it is. The team that finishes fourth deserves a place in the CL.

That_Guy

Le King wrote: »

It's fine the way it is. The team that finishes fourth deserves to be in the qualifying round for the Champions League

FYP

gimmick

I like the idea tbh. It would add in extra excitement at the end of a season, and fior teams who try "avoid" Europa league, they now have an incentive to keep on plugging away until the bitter end with the carrot of CL football still being bandied about.

It is no less fair than the play off system in the lower leagues.

Melion

Ridiculous idea.

What have Everton, Liverpool or Spurs done this season to deserve to even be considered for the CL?

The 4 best teams finished in the top 4

The Volt

The only thing I can say for it is that it would give some teams more of a chance to earn much needed cash, thus go someway to leveling the playing field but still, not a runner for me.

OhNoYouDidn't

Its clearly designed to break up the top 4 cartel in England thats choking the game. The clubs will obviously go for it, so I think this has legs.

Mitch Connor

Melion wrote: »

Ridiculous idea.

What have Everton, Liverpool or Spurs done this season to deserve to even be considered for the CL?

The 4 best teams finished in the top 4

Agree - giving it for fourth rewards consistency over the season.

If you introduce a playoff you have the potential of the team finishing 7th being in the CL. Would Everton qualify through, or do well next season? If they don't it puts the actual 4th CL spot at risk.

Though I imagine the sides that voiced in opposition are probably comfortable with their top 4 placings.

OhNoYouDidn't

Melion wrote: »

The 4 best teams finished in the top 4

You could say the same about the promotion slots in the lower leagues...

The Volt

The Champions League currently serves to strengthen the domination of the top teams, its financial doping in effect and to break that structure even a little isn't the worst idea. Maybe this isn't the proposal to do it but I certainly think it needs an overhaul...perhaps that just means going back to Champions only qualifying.

pickarooney

I don't think teams in 4th should be rewarded with a CL (qualifying) place as it stands to to that extent I don't care that they would feel hard done by. I'm kind of unimpressed with the idea of the team in 7th getting into the CL as well though.

Overall I think it's a bit ridiculous for a team's objective in a competition to be fourth place and find it even worse that teams will deliberately sabotage their chances of winning one competition in an attempt to gain 4th place.

They should just let the UEFA cup winners into the CL already. Since they 'relegate' CL group losers to the UEFA, why on earth not promote UEFA winners to the CL?

DubDani

The dutch have been doing the same for a few years to give away the last remaining EL place.

The teams finishing 4th-7th in the league get the chance to play out the last remaining spot. 4th vs 7th and 5th vs. 6th, and the winner play a "winner takes it all" game to qualify.

keane2097

Has to be good for the game.

invinciblePRSTV

everdead.ie wrote: »

I'd much prefer to see the fourth spot awarded to the FA cup winners

Even better, give the 3rd automatic slot to the FA Cup winners and give the 4th qualifying spot to the winners of a play off between teams that finish 3-6.

It's crazy the champions league has cloggers finishing 3rd or 4th and miles behind the front 2 getting CL places when they don't really deserve it. Playoffs and an FAC cup slot makes things all that bit more fairer.

GLaDOS

I think it has its merits, might help make the league a bit more competitive.

As said before, it's no less fair than the playoffs in lower leagues.

Pauleta

It depends what league it is. In a 4 spot league then 4th v 5th would be good fun. Nobody lower.

v3ttel

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

It's crazy the champions league has cloggers finishing 3rd or 4th and miles behind the front 2 getting CL places when they don't really deserve it. Playoffs and an FAC cup slot makes things all that bit more fairer.

You could have said the same about Spurs, 4th, miles behind Chelsea last season, and they ended up doing pretty well.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Playoffs and an FAC cup slot makes things all that bit more fairer.

So, its a problem that the "cloggers" in 3rd or 4th could be involved, but you'd happily have a playoff system, where potentially the team in 6th or 7th can qualify, who could even be miles behind 4th, nevermind 1st....

keane2097

Rooney10 wrote: »

So, its a problem that the "cloggers" in 3rd or 4th could be involved, but you'd happily have a playoff system, where potentially the team in 6th or 7th can qualify, who could even be miles behind 4th, nevermind 1st....

I assume he's pointing out the logical fallacy in the idea that third or fourth are close enough to auto-deserve their place, but sixth and seventh aren't.

KaiserGunner

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Even better, give the 3rd automatic slot to the FA Cup winners and give the 4th qualifying spot to the winners of a play off between teams that finish 3-6.

It's crazy the champions league has cloggers finishing 3rd or 4th and miles behind the front 2 getting CL places when they don't really deserve it. Playoffs and an FAC cup slot makes things all that bit more fairer.

I completely disagree with that. How does an FA cup winner deserve a place? You can win the F.A cup by playing only six matches and half of them could include lower league sides.

You also say that it would be fairer to have a playoff competition between teams that finish 3rd - 6th, but how do "cloggers" finishing 5th or 6th deserve an opportunity to qualify for the champions league? As you did say that 3rd and 4th dont really deserve a champions league place.

Edit: Rooney10 got in there before me.

keane2097

The greater the variation in CL qualifiers a league has the more balanced the league will be, it's clearly good for the game to give more teams a fighting chance to get in.

KeithAFC

The team which finishes 7th would probably win it.

invinciblePRSTV

Rooney10 wrote: »

You could have said the same about Spurs, 4th, miles behind Chelsea last season, and they ended up doing pretty well.

Yeah but I'm taking a more holistic overview of the past 10 yrs or so, Spurs could have been in the CL multiple times if my proposal had been implemented. Their 2005/06 vintage in particular were a far more entertaining team then boring old Liverpool were for instance.

Rooney10 wrote: »

So, its a problem that the "cloggers" in 3rd or 4th could be involved, but you'd happily have a playoff system, where potentially the team in 6th or 7th can qualify, who could even be miles behind 4th, nevermind 1st....

It's generally the same cloggers there or there abouts year after year, at least with an expanded means of an entry more teams would get a crack of the whip which is fairer imo. If the CL isn't for champions then at least allow more teams a crack of competing in it, after all it does get rather tiresome to see the same names qualify time after time without ever actually threatening to win the PL.

invinciblePRSTV

KaiserGunner wrote: »

I completely disagree with that. How does an FA cup winner deserve a place? You can win the F.A cup by playing only six matches and half of them could include lower league sides.

Yeah and what's wrong with that? imo FA cup winners are far more deserving of a place in the CL then a team that limps home in 4th.

KaiserGunner wrote: »

You also say that it would be fairer to have a playoff competition between teams that finish 3rd - 6th, but how do "cloggers" finishing 5th or 6th deserve an opportunity to qualify for the champions league? As you did say that 3rd and 4th dont really deserve a champions league place.

I don't think teams that finish 5th or 6th are any more worthy of a place in the champions league then a team finishing 3rd or 4th, hence why i think a playoff would be a fairer and more entertaining prospect.

KaiserGunner

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yeah and what's wrong with that? imo FA cup winners are far more deserving of a place in the CL then a team that limps home in 4th.



I don't think teams that finish 5th or 6th are any more worthy of a place in the champions league then a team finishing 3rd or 4th, hence why i think a playoff would be a fairer and more entertaining prospect.

Fair enough but why should runners up be deserving of a place then? Why not divide the four places up this way, give the Champions a place, F.A. cup winners, League cup winners a place and then have a playoff between the teams from 2nd - 5th?

I dont agree with the playoff idea as I think the way the places are distributed now are fine, but if a playoff system was brought in id like the spots distributed as above.

invinciblePRSTV

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Fair enough but why should runners up be deserving of a place then? Why not divide the four places up this way, give the Champions a place, F.A. cup winners, League cup winners a place and then have a playoff between the teams from 2nd - 5th?

At least in theory the runners up will probably have been in the race for the title most seasons so i suppose it's fair enough to give them CL qualification.

But hey i'd be more then happy to see LC winners get a CL spot, the thought of Birmingham City getting ripped apart by some slovenian part timers entertains me no end:pac:.

KaiserGunner wrote: »

I dont agree with the playoff idea as I think the way the places are distributed now are fine, but if a playoff system was brought in id like the spots distributed as above.

Being an Arsenal fan I am not surprised you support keeping the status quo, just like i as a Villa supporter, or the OP as an Everton supporter would like to see the CL spots distributed in a more equitable manner.

inforfun

DubDani wrote: »

The dutch have been doing the same for a few years to give away the last remaining EL place.

The teams finishing 4th-7th in the league get the chance to play out the last remaining spot. 4th vs 7th and 5th vs. 6th, and the winner play a "winner takes it all" game to qualify.

Not entirely true.
There is a play off for the last remaining europa League ticket (actually on its way as we speak) between places 5 to 8. Home and away for each round.
There used to be a play off for the CL as well but that was short, only 2 years if i remember right.
1 year Feyenoord finished 3rd, which would have meant CL qualifiers but they lost the play off against number 6 in the league, a team they had beaten 2x during the season in the league.
Totally unfair imo.

Dont be at yourself

I'd be in favour of it. It's ridiculous that finishing 4th is considered success for big teams (my own included).

OK, the team in 7th place is in most seasons lacking in the quality needed to play CL football, but the only way that will improve is to dole out the CL money outside the typical big 4. If the likes of Everton, Spurs etc can get into the CL every few seasons, it will drastically increase the standard of the top half of the league.

I'd go even further, and have the matches played abroad in an end-of-season tournament. The 39th game the league has been looking for.

The other solution, and I'd love to see it happen, is to revert European football to the way it was:

Champions League - only for champions, two-legged knockout the whole way. Next year, we'd have United, Barca, Milan, Dortmund, Ajax, and a whole load of other teams. People will tune in: because you have massive games like United - Barca, and because even the lower games, like United - Standard Liege would be massive due to the pure knock-out nature.

UEFA Cup - 2nd-5th: We'd have Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Madrid, Valencia, Inter, Napoli and a load other top-class continental teams. It would be of almost the same calibre of the current CL. TV interest would be massive, inflating the prize money, and so making it a competition worth winning again.

European Super Cup: Would be a much more prestigous competition again.

Cup Winner's Cup: For the winner of the domestic cup competition.

keane2097

KaiserGunner wrote: »

Fair enough but why should runners up be deserving of a place then? Why not divide the four places up this way, give the Champions a place, F.A. cup winners, League cup winners a place and then have a playoff between the teams from 2nd - 5th?

I dont agree with the playoff idea as I think the way the places are distributed now are fine, but if a playoff system was brought in id like the spots distributed as above.

The idea is to have as entertaining a league as possible. Currently, there's a top four that everyone wants to be in, a 5th place spot that the team that misses out on the top 4 ends up in even though they don't want to, and a 6th spot that everyone wants to avoid.

After that there's about six or seven spots where nobody ever really has anything to play for, towards the end of the season a team in 10th are likely just plodding along, no real chance to be relegated, nothing else to look up to.

Having the potential to qualify for CL from as low as 7th would add so much spice to seasons that can (and ridic often do) become complete processions.

Tbh, one of the only days you can be guaranteed of excitement in the EPL is the relegation decider day, which is essentially a playoff anyway. Adding another one of these, only between better quality sides, would be great for the league.

Le King

This would run the risk of England losing its 4th CL spot. Obviously its good in the sense that more clubs are in the mix for the CL, which could only help some teams. It would add extra incentive to finish 3rd but I still think that by not giving it to the 4th placed team its unfair.

parker kent

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

The other solution, and I'd love to see it happen, is to revert European football to the way it was:

Champions League - only for champions, two-legged knockout the whole way. Next year, we'd have United, Barca, Milan, Dortmund, Ajax, and a whole load of other teams. People will tune in: because you have massive games like United - Barca, and because even the lower games, like United - Standard Liege would be massive due to the pure knock-out nature.

UEFA Cup - 2nd-5th: We'd have Chelsea, Arsenal, City, Madrid, Valencia, Inter, Napoli and a load other top-class continental teams. It would be of almost the same calibre of the current CL. TV interest would be massive, inflating the prize money, and so making it a competition worth winning again.

European Super Cup: Would be a much more prestigous competition again.

Cup Winner's Cup: For the winner of the domestic cup competition.

In that system, the UEFA Cup is likely to be better than the Champions League. That genie is never getting out of the bottle again.

I would decrease the Champions League to the top 3 of the big leagues, 2 from a few leagues and then the Champions from the rest. Turn the Europa League into a knockout competition and have the winner qualify for the Champions League.

inforfun

keane2097 wrote: »

The idea is to have as entertaining a league as possible. Currently, there's a top four that everyone wants to be in, a 5th place spot that the team that misses out on the top 4 ends up in even though they don't want to, and a 6th spot that everyone wants to avoid.

After that there's about six or seven spots where nobody ever really has anything to play for, towards the end of the season a team in 10th are likely just plodding along, no real chance to be relegated, nothing else to look up to.

Having the potential to qualify for CL from as low as 7th would add so much spice to seasons that can (and ridic often do) become complete processions.

Tbh, one of the only days you can be guaranteed of excitement in the EPL is the relegation decider day, which is essentially a playoff anyway. Adding another one of these, only between better quality sides, would be great for the league.

Kind of agree with that.
In Holland this year my favourites had a dreadfull 1st half of the season. normally they would have had nothing to play for anymore after january but after a string of good results, 8th place showed up at the horizon.
They didnt make it in the end but even on the last day of the league they could have done it.
It does keep the league more interesting for more teams than just the top 4 and bottom 5 or 6 at the run in of the season.

flahavaj

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

You could say the same about the promotion slots in the lower leagues...

Then change the rules in the lower leagues. Don't extend the bullsh*t rules to include the PL as well.

Charisteas

The top four teams in England should enter into the Champions League, otherwise you risk great danger of England losing that fourth spot through UEFA's league coefficient point system, which is-

Qualifying for the Champions League group phase (4 bonus points).

Reaching the second round of the Champions League (5 bonus points).

Reaching the quarter, semi and final of either the Champions League or the Europa League (1 bonus point).

They then determine the average over the past 5 seasons.

If the Champions League spot went to the FA Cup winners, this year by default it would be Stoke City, as Man City have already qualified. Or, if we had a play-off between Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and Everton, somehow Everton could win it.

Which brings into the problem of an average team such as Everton or Stoke being in the Champions League.... they may or may not even scrap past qualifying stages but even if they do, most probably wouldn't get out of the group stages.

This meaning England gets less league coefficient points, and in danger (but very unlikely in the near future) of losing their 'fourth' Champions League spot to other countries who only have three (Germany, France, Russia).

Probably rambled on a bit there, but bottom line is, the best four teams should be in the CL, and it can't see the FA changing there plans anytime soon.

Charisteas

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

Champions League - only for champions,

UEFA Cup - 2nd-5th: It would be of almost the same calibre of the current CL.

Is there any point having two seperate European competitions with the same level of quality?

With the Champions League format of today, anybody can play anybody if they escape the group stages. But with two different competitions of great quality, I would just become increasingly frustrated at the separation of the best teams in Europe.

amacachi

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its clearly designed to break up the top 4 cartel in England thats choking the game. The clubs will obviously go for it, so I think this has legs.

Ya think? It's a big 5 now and all this would do is give the worst of the top 5 an extra chance to qualify when they weren't good enough over the season.

pickarooney

Charisteas wrote: »

The top four teams in England should enter into the Champions League, otherwise you risk great danger of England losing that fourth spot through UEFA's league coefficient point system

Great danger indeed.

Helix

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Its clearly designed to break up the top 4 cartel in England thats choking the game. The clubs will obviously go for it, so I think this has legs.

they didnt go for it when it was brought up a few years back

i think as many as 16 voted against it

101001

Charisteas wrote: »

The top four teams in England should enter into the Champions League, otherwise you risk great danger of England losing that fourth spot through UEFA's league coefficient point system, which is-

Qualifying for the Champions League group phase (4 bonus points).

Reaching the second round of the Champions League (5 bonus points).

Reaching the quarter, semi and final of either the Champions League or the Europa League (1 bonus point).

They then determine the average over the past 5 seasons.

If the Champions League spot went to the FA Cup winners, this year by default it would be Stoke City, as Man City have already qualified. Or, if we had a play-off between Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool and Everton, somehow Everton could win it.

Which brings into the problem of an average team such as Everton or Stoke being in the Champions League.... they may or may not even scrap past qualifying stages but even if they do, most probably wouldn't get out of the group stages.

This meaning England gets less league coefficient points, and in danger (but very unlikely in the near future) of losing their 'fourth' Champions League spot to other countries who only have three (Germany, France, Russia).

Probably rambled on a bit there, but bottom line is, the best four teams should be in the CL, and it can't see the FA changing there plans anytime soon.

The FA cup getting the CL spot is a decent solution. I'd hazard a guess that if a CL position was up for grabs Stoke wouldnt have reached the Final. The FA cup is becoming just like the league cup. There is no incentive to win it. It would help the profile and desire to win the FA cup no end.

And you mention stoke... They didnt win the FA Cup though. It should be for the winner. Stoke are also somewhat of an anomoly. there's been a top 4 team in the final every year bar 1 in the last 20 years and they won almost all if not all... everton? 1994 or 95 maybe?

Having an odd team like stoke or portsmouth every ten years would effect coefficents that much.

And 4 places are going to germany next year I believe italy down to 3. I cant see italy being too much of a threat in years to come

Mr. Guappa

I'd consider a play-off between the 4th and 5th placed teams, anything more would be a bit of a farce really. A 4-team play-off would probably favour Spurs over the next few years but I'd rather return to the CL following a stellar league season than getting lucky over a couple of one-off games after sneaking into 7th.

Another question is what happens if say Arsenal win the CL (therefore qualifying automatically) but only finish 5th in the league. Does the 3rd-placed team go into the play-offs or do you abandon the play-offs and give the spot to Arsenal?

citytillidie

None runner as it was a couple of years ago.

Englands ranking could also take a hit next season with what is looking like 2 Championship sides in the Europa League.

So if they did lose 4th spot for the Champions League will they then do a play off for the 3rd spot?

Pepe LeFrits

How about give the CL 4 places to the 4 best teams (a radical notion) and instead just spread the money out more evenly, including teams who aren't in Europe (this would need to be done Europe wide, though).

Reverting the CL back to the EC style is a bad idea. The current system may not be perfect, but even with its focus on including as many of the best teams as possible there are still plenty of matches that are duds, even in the 'pressure' of the knock-out stages. Next season the best possible QF line up in that scenario would be something like Barcelona, Milan, Dortmund, Lille, Porto, Man United, Zenit St Petersburg and Anderlecht, but realistically half of them would meet before then and you'd end up with Barcelona humping the champions of Albania 15-0. It wouldn't improve the spectacle any.

noodler

There really should be a CL place for the FA Cup and UEFA Cup winners as already mentioned in the thread.

That would add so much to those competitions.

Het-Field

I have always believed the title "Champions League" has been somewhat of a misnomer. I believed that in 1997 when UEFA began allowing some second placed teams to enter the competition, even though they were "Champions" of nothing. The entry of the third placed teams into the competition gave more creedance to my belief that the league was no longer a "Champions League". The last straw was the entry of some fourth placed teams into the competition.

There is no way a fourth placed team can be considered "Champions". In many leagues, the fourth placed team has fought its own private battle with the teams placed directly below them, and they have never even come into the reckoning vis-a-vis the Championship race. I dont think there is anything objectionable about the fourth place team having to go an extra-mile to copperfasten its dubious credentials as Champions, and play-off against three teams below them.

I believe it would be interesting to shake the fourth place up a bit, however, the logistics would be a pain vis-a-vis, cup finals, entry into the Europa League, pre-season plans, and international tournaments which take place directly after the season ends.

Dont be at yourself

Charisteas wrote: »

Is there any point having two seperate European competitions with the same level of quality?

Is there any point in having a European competition that teams actively avoid trying to qualify for?

M5

I think its a great idea (in the current format), the top for sides automatically get a minimum 30 million extra in revenue every season because of it. The top four was basically the same for 6 years, until last year, because of it with a massive gap back to fifth. That had never happened before in England and i attribute that to the extra revenue and the ability to attract a better class of player just by being in the competition. It would leave some possibility of success open to clubs outside the traditional big clubs where at the moment there is none.

As has been said before though, Champions league should be for champions only.

Paully D

What should happen is the top 2 get Champions League spots, along with the FA Cup and Carling Cup winners.

Charisteas

Paully D wrote: »

What should happen is the top 2 get Champions League spots, along with the FA Cup and Carling Cup winners.

Do you really want Birmingham in the Champions League? They wouldn't get past the qualifying round. And seeing as FA Cup winners Man City finished 3rd and already qualified for the CL, then would you have that remaining spot go to runners-up Stoke?

The only positive aspect is that it would increase the glamour of the domestic cups, but in reality and from an entertainment perspective, why would anyone not want the best 4 teams in England (top 4 in the premiership) to be in the CL?

noodler

Charisteas wrote: »

Do you really want Birmingham in the Champions League? They wouldn't get past the qualifying round. And seeing as FA Cup winners Man City finished 3rd and already qualified for the CL, then would you have that remaining spot go to runners-up Stoke?

The only positive aspect is that it would increase the glamour of the domestic cups, but in reality and from an entertainment perspective, why would anyone not want the best 4 teams in England (top 4 in the premiership) to be in the CL?

FA Cup yes.

Carling Cup no.

I'd love to see the FA cup being taken so seriously again - it would be epic imo.