derrypatrick update

tismesoitis

http://www.agresearch.teagasc.ie/grange/researchfarms/sucklerdemo/updates/ read this and weep:mad: had a feelin this was goin to happen. i make it 17 dead calves out of 116 calvings(14.7%) and 14 c sections.

whelan1

nice to see our money is going to good use 10 sections ffs lads cop on....

tismesoitis

the 10 sections were on d original animals they also opened 4 of the 20 newly bought in replacements:eek::eek:

blue5000

They'll be in the market for an angus bull so!;)

No wonder they were keeping quiet in da comic!

bogman_bass

Interesting to see the weights with the stores. LMxFR still on top. just goes to show the importance of milk

bob charles

I got in a little trouble when they first mentioned this herd and there targets. I was told that what I was saying was unhelpful. Feeling smug now in the belief of "I told you so". Utter incompetence

whelan1

blue5000 wrote: »

They'll be in the market for an angus bull so!;)

No wonder they were keeping quiet in da comic!

really do not understand the mentallity of buying in 4 ch bulls ....after a calving history like that would you not want to be trying something easier for the next year

RobinBanks

whelan1 wrote: »

really do not understand the mentallity of buying in 4 ch bulls ....after a calving history like that would you not want to be trying something easier for the next year

Perhaps they will improve the way they manage the herd pre-calving. What struck me about the report was that they were feeding the cows ad-lib. Recipe for disaster.

However, you're point still stands. Easier calving bulls should be explored whilst still aiming for the DWG's that been published

pakalasa

You remember that clearance sale in Ennis a few weeks back. Well, the stock bull was 1050 Kgs, a fine big muscular BB. I went through all the pens and I didn't see a C-section scar on any of the cows. Not a single one. All the cows were exceptionally big at the hips. Mostly all were 1/2 bred Black Lims from Br/Fr types.
Hard to beat that system, if you ask me.....and that guy was getting out of suckling.:mad:

tismesoitis

you would wonder when the powers that be will call a hault to things and pull d plug. straight away the target of €1000 per ha is out of reach again. to b honest speaking as a farmer who is still waiting for his reps money from last year its depressing seeing our ag budget being pissed down the jacks like this!!:mad::(

whelan1

how many farmers on here have had 10 sections in this calving season ?

tismesoitis

whelan1 wrote: »

how many farmers on here have had 10 sections in this calving season ?

we had 1 with a heifer this year and 100% live calves from 71 calvings about 60% to belgian blues. (lost 1 at 10 days and 1 at about 10 weeks though:()
just lookin also at the bull performance ...i don't know where they got their figures! I make it DLGs range from 0.74 -0.89. paper won't refuse ink me thinks

RobinBanks

whelan1 wrote: »

how many farmers on here have had 10 sections in this calving season ?

0/11

Sometimes been a small part time farmer has its advantages! less risk I suppose, but same principles should apply whether its 10 cows or 100 cows

reilig

whelan1 wrote: »

how many farmers on here have had 10 sections in this calving season ?

Have not had a section on the farm since 1988 - it was on a dairy cow that had broken to a BB bull.

Calved over 60 cows this year. 40 were to Belgian Blue, the rest to Charolais. We didn't have to get the vet to assist with one of them - in fact, the majority of the BB's calved themselves. Lost 1 calf this year - last weekend. We had to pull the calf - had him to the hips and the cow fell awkwardly on top of the jack and broke it. Calf's air supply was cut off and the poor bugger smothered before we could get him out.

Most cows are black limousins from a freisian background - good calvers, good mothers and good milkers.

whelan1

0/130 2 left to calve .... also we have 20 sucklers and only had to handle 1 of them to calve

manjou

Just read report and think that someone should be employed who knows what there doing to start with.Whats going on there is a disgrace. these ch bulls dont stand a chance cause the problems are due to people wno are running it.All the grass measuring and dlwg is no good as dead calves have a very bad growth rate.they are losing money not making it. Changing breeds wont help if same people are in charge.

5live

I think they will continue to make a horses a#se of it. Do they suffer any financial penalty if there is 100% sections or all the calves die? Not a chance. So the 'performance' circus of the 'experts' will continue:mad:.

For pitys sake put a farmer in charge of that bloody asylum:( or pay them all based on the profit left at the end of the year (in this case, as in last years, probably E0)

vanderbadger

how does it work there i wonder in regard to staffing, is it a 9 to 5 type job or is someone always about the place, might explain alot if lads are just working regular hrs like missing cows in heat etc and calving problems,

Muckit

I had a great laugh reading Richard Booth's article in Da Comic last Thursday......

'The DerryPatrick Herd was going to be the shining light of suckling. The only problem was, they forgot to put the cows in calf.'

:D:D

leg wax

one thing it might do is stop more lads getting into the blues for export good news for me and lads at it already.:p

blue5000

manjou wrote: »

Just read report and think that someone should be employed who knows what there doing to start with.Whats going on there is a disgrace. these ch bulls dont stand a chance cause the problems are due to people wno are running it.All the grass measuring and dlwg is no good as dead calves have a very bad growth rate.they are losing money not making it. Changing breeds wont help if same people are in charge.

I agree, was up there last year at the open day and there isn't anything wrong with the cows. Don't know who is in charge, but it looks like a committee, all chiefs and no indians.

I still think the cows are under too much stress by stocking them so tightly. Wonder how far off the 1000 target they were last year?

babybrian

Im going to put my name foreward to take over the running of the herd, I'm a dairy man with no experience of sucklers but I cant do any worse than them useless f@+kers...3 weeks AI and have 91% served and then I see they have only 57% :eek: so that means already next years calving will be a disgrace!!!

That amount of calves dying and c-sections is bordering on animal cruelty...

Pat the lad

ad lib silage to contenital cows in calf to unknow calving history/experience of the bb blues, after spending the whole summer on good ground/ good grass!!! crazy stuff!!
no info on how many calves unassisted!!
won't think the bb society are too happy- given bb blues a bad name.

Muckit

There's too much emphasis placed on 'blues' and the export type weanling.

The reality is that less than 10% of our weanlings are exported. The m ajority of suckler farmers are also small and part-time. BB's don't suit, end of.

When will we see research facilities and farming media reflecting what is really happening on the ground?

vanderbadger

Pat the lad wrote: »

ad lib silage to contenital cows in calf to unknow calving history/experience of the bb blues, after spending the whole summer on good ground/ good grass!!! crazy stuff!!
no info on how many calves unassisted!!
won't think the bb society are too happy- given bb blues a bad name.

even the CH bulls they bought dont look over easy calvers on paper at least

vanderbadger

http://www.examiner.ie/business/farming/derrypatrick-just-like-a-normal-farm-155745.html

Muckit

vanderbadger wrote: »

http://www.examiner.ie/business/farming/derrypatrick-just-like-a-normal-farm-155745.html

Fair play for posting.

Some startling statistics, but ones that reflect REALITY on the ground nonetheless.

It's a tough game farming. But we didn't need to read this article to learn that

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

There's too much emphasis placed on 'blues' and the export type weanling.

The reality is that less than 10% of our weanlings are exported. The m ajority of suckler farmers are also small and part-time. BB's don't suit, end of.

?

Where did you get the 10% figure Muckit? I thought I saw a figure of 17% in a Farmers Journal last december. They broke it down further saying that over 30% of calves born to "suckler cows" as opposed to "dairy" were exported in 2010. the 17% figure was reached when they combined in the calves born to dairy cows.

Not to start an argument, but I think that you are wrong about too much emphasis being placed on "the export type weanling". As a suckler farmer who trys to breed the majority of his animals for export, if I, and the farmers around me did not totally focus on producing weanlings for export, then we would quite simply be unemployed. We'd be operating a loss making farm, selling beef for irish factories and below the cost of production.
Exports are hugely important to ireland. For 2 reasons:

1. They take away the glut of cattle that factories could have - meaning that factories have to compete for cattle and pay farmers what their cattle are worth.

2. Most export cattle are bought in marts (Keeping people in employment). Export buyers keep mart prices competative - which we need in order to be able to turn a small profit.

Finally on BB's.
There are quite a few farmers out there successfully breeding BB's. They use the right cows, the right bulls, feed the right way, have successful calvings with little or no assistance. But we only ever hear about the problem calvers. We are never told how the farmer put a high muscle sire on a narrow dam,. We never hear about how the cow was fed ad lib high quality silage.

There's no question about BB's not suiting part-time farming if the farmer knows what he or she is doing. At the end of the day, people produce BB's because that what the exporters want. They aren't successful for some people - buy 99.9% of the time its not the fault of the breed, nor is it the breed of the cow. Its the farmers fault.

Although, as someon suggested earlier this week on a thread here, its good to see people being discouraged from producing high quality weinlings because it leaves the market small and contained and maintains prices for those producing these weinlings.

tismesoitis

reilig wrote: »

Where did you get the 10% figure Muckit? I thought I saw a figure of 17% in a Farmers Journal last december. They broke it down further saying that over 50% of calves born to "suckler cows" as opposed to "dairy" were exported in 2010. the 17% figure was reached when they combined in the calves born to dairy cows.

Not to start an argument, but I think that you are wrong about too much emphasis being placed on "the export type weanling". As a suckler farmer who trys to breed the majority of his animals for export, if I, and the farmers around me did not totally focus on producing weanlings for export, then we would quite simply be unemployed. We'd be operating a loss making farm, selling beef for irish factories and below the cost of production.
Exports are hugely important to ireland. For 2 reasons:

1. They take away the glut of cattle that factories could have - meaning that factories have to compete for cattle and pay farmers what their cattle are worth.

2. Most export cattle are bought in marts (Keeping people in employment). Export buyers keep mart prices competative - which we need in order to be able to turn a small profit.

Finally on BB's.
There are quite a few farmers out there successfully breeding BB's. They use the right cows, the right bulls, feed the right way, have successful calvings with little or no assistance. But we only ever hear about the problem calvers. We are never told how the farmer put a high muscle sire on a narrow dam,. We never hear about how the cow was fed ad lib high quality silage.

There's no question about BB's not suiting part-time farming if the farmer knows what he or she is doing. At the end of the day, people produce BB's because that what the exporters want. They aren't successful for some people - buy 99.9% of the time its not the fault of the breed, nor is it the breed of the cow. Its the farmers fault.

Although, as someon suggested earlier this week on a thread here, its good to see people being discouraged from producing high quality weinlings because it leaves the market small and contained and maintains prices for those producing these weinlings.

+1 could'nt agree more

Muckit

Just to clarify, I'm not knocking the Belgian Blue breed, or it's place in Irish beef sector.

Also I might be slightly off with my 10% figure for live shipping from Ireland.

But even if the figure is closer to 17%, there's another 83% there. All cattle that are sold to domestic factories, who also by the way, offer alot of employment to Irish citizens.

83%..... that's the majority if I'm not mistaken. My point if that suckler farming research institutes and the various farming media should focus more on these (not to the exclusion of the minorities though).

Afterall that's what concerns the majority of beef/suckler farmers.

There are farmers and then they're are exceptional farmers. They're are dreams, then there is reality.

I don't mind being an ordinary farmer with realist expectations. Nether do over 80% of beef/suckler farmers in Ireland apparently.

It's a pity DerryPatrick and the likes wouldn't sit up and take note.

But they say the best lessons are learnt the hard way

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

offer alot of employment to Irish citizens

I'm not having a go at you Muckit by any means. You're a sound lad and you contribute an awful lot to this forum.

A relative of mine was doing a Masters in Human resources (+ something else that I can't remember) 2 years ago in a University. She did a focus on a number of meat factories - a large beef and sheep facility in Roscommon, a beef facility in Cavan, a pig meat facility in Monaghan, 2 poultry facilities in Monaghan and 1 poultry facility in Galway. Surprising results:

* 3700 people identified as working on site in the 7 facilities (on the intake, lines, security, administration and management).

* 415 people identified had been born in Ireland. The majority of these people were working in either Management administration or supervisory roles.

* 99% of the other people identified were born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Brazil.

* She did a cross section survey and found that the average wage of the 415 irish people identified was €22500. The average wage from the other 3000+ people was just over €18000.


Following this study, she did some further research on willing participants from the group of people identified as being born outside of ireland.

She found:

The average wage to these people was €8.65 per hour
The average person sent at least 45% of their take home pay back to their family in their home country.
52 out of the 70 people that she interviewed were not being employed directly by the meat processing facility that they worked in - instead they were working for some type of agency. They had no union, no pension, some received only a training wage which was less than the minimum wage of €8.65 at the time.


Now you cannot say that the above is good for our economy. People are being brought directly into this country to work in these facilities. Irish people aren't wanted there because they know their rights about minimum wage and JLC rates. These imported workers spend very little in our economy. They send most of their wages home.

In comparison to the farmer who sells his cattle to an exporter. This money is spent in the local economy, in shops, co-ops and hardwares that continue to provide work for Irish Citizens.

Not alone are the factories screwing the farmers, they are also screwing the unwitty foreign workers that work for them while the factory owners pockets swell with profit. Don't ever think for one minute that meat factories put a lot into local economies.

Tora Bora

reilig wrote: »

I'm not having a go at you Muckit by any means. You're a sound lad and you contribute an awful lot to this forum.

A relative of mine was doing a Masters in Human resources (+ something else that I can't remember) 2 years ago in a University. She did a focus on a number of meat factories - a large beef and sheep facility in Roscommon, a beef facility in Cavan, a pig meat facility in Monaghan, 2 poultry facilities in Monaghan and 1 poultry facility in Galway. Surprising results:

* 3700 people identified as working on site in the 7 facilities (on the intake, lines, security, administration and management).

* 415 people identified had been born in Ireland. The majority of these people were working in either Management administration or supervisory roles.

* 99% of the other people identified were born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Brazil.

* She did a cross section survey and found that the average wage of the 415 irish people identified was €22500. The average wage from the other 3000+ people was just over €18000.


Following this study, she did some further research on willing participants from the group of people identified as being born outside of ireland.

She found:

The average wage to these people was €8.65 per hour
The average person sent at least 45% of their take home pay back to their family in their home country.
52 out of the 70 people that she interviewed were not being employed directly by the meat processing facility that they worked in - instead they were working for some type of agency. They had no union, no pension, some received only a training wage which was less than the minimum wage of €8.65 at the time.


Now you cannot say that the above is good for our economy. People are being brought directly into this country to work in these facilities. Irish people aren't wanted there because they know their rights about minimum wage and JLC rates. These imported workers spend very little in our economy. They send most of their wages home.

In comparison to the farmer who sells his cattle to an exporter. This money is spent in the local economy, in shops, co-ops and hardwares that continue to provide work for Irish Citizens.

Not alone are the factories screwing the farmers, they are also screwing the unwitty foreign workers that work for them while the factory owners pockets swell with profit. Don't ever think for one minute that meat factories put a lot into local economies.

Yearra, what are you on about? Didn't the dept enterprise and employment or was it the competiton authority carry out a big investigation into the meat factories a few years back. Found nothing amiss. No price fixing. Not a scent of a monopoly in the industry, etc,.

You shouldn't spread misinformation about the meat industry, when you know full well it's got a clean bill of health from our regulators in government.:rolleyes:

pakalasa

If there's one thing that always bugged me about the IFA, it's their constant moaning about factory beef prices. If it's so profitable, why aren't other people rushing in to open factories. We live in a free market economy after all. Did it ever occur to the IFA to actually set up their own factory and run it as a non-profit entity. They might be far better lighting a few candles of their own, instead of constantly cursing the dark.:mad:
As for exporting weanlings, I'm now getting paid the same price for spring-born weanlings, as I was paying for 18 month old stores before I got into suckling. I'd hate to think what would happen if the live exporting trade stopped over night.

blue5000

Justin Mccarthy has an article this wk on p5 of da comic. He's better informed than the rest of us as he names a few of the 'committee' involved. Best of luck to Denis Minogue who has the unenviable job of managing the herd.

At least teagasc are learning the hard way that beef farming is not straight forward!:D

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

I'm not having a go at you Muckit by any means.

I know well Reilig . I'm all on for a bit of healthy debate

Nothing is ever cut and dry. It's a complex web this farming lark;)

This a foolish man that thinks he knows it all. Good to hear all sides

BeeDI

blue5000 wrote: »

Justin Mccarthy has an article this wk on p5 of da comic. He's better informed than the rest of us as he names a few of the 'committee' involved. Best of luck to Denis Minogue who has the unenviable job of managing the herd.

At least teagasc are learning the hard way that beef farming is not straight forward!:D

Time to subcontract the management of the herd to one of the IFJ's "better farmers".
Monthly reports on performance in the IFJ.
Compare the performance with the same farmers home farm performance.

Then we get to see what is what:)

pajero12

whelan1 wrote: »

how many farmers on here have had 10 sections in this calving season ?

10+ 3 since last thursday!

whelan1

pajero12 wrote: »

10+ 3 since last thursday!

well do you work in the derrypatrick herd:D

pajero12

whelan1 wrote: »

well do you work in the derrypatrick herd:D

No, Wish I had their money though :P

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

I'm not having a go at you Muckit by any means. You're a sound lad and you contribute an awful lot to this forum.

A relative of mine was doing a Masters in Human resources (+ something else that I can't remember) 2 years ago in a University. She did a focus on a number of meat factories - a large beef and sheep facility in Roscommon, a beef facility in Cavan, a pig meat facility in Monaghan, 2 poultry facilities in Monaghan and 1 poultry facility in Galway. Surprising results:

* 3700 people identified as working on site in the 7 facilities (on the intake, lines, security, administration and management).

* 415 people identified had been born in Ireland. The majority of these people were working in either Management administration or supervisory roles.

* 99% of the other people identified were born in Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Brazil.

* She did a cross section survey and found that the average wage of the 415 irish people identified was €22500. The average wage from the other 3000+ people was just over €18000.


Following this study, she did some further research on willing participants from the group of people identified as being born outside of ireland.

She found:

The average wage to these people was €8.65 per hour
The average person sent at least 45% of their take home pay back to their family in their home country.
52 out of the 70 people that she interviewed were not being employed directly by the meat processing facility that they worked in - instead they were working for some type of agency. They had no union, no pension, some received only a training wage which was less than the minimum wage of €8.65 at the time.


Now you cannot say that the above is good for our economy. People are being brought directly into this country to work in these facilities. Irish people aren't wanted there because they know their rights about minimum wage and JLC rates. These imported workers spend very little in our economy. They send most of their wages home.

In comparison to the farmer who sells his cattle to an exporter. This money is spent in the local economy, in shops, co-ops and hardwares that continue to provide work for Irish Citizens.

Not alone are the factories screwing the farmers, they are also screwing the unwitty foreign workers that work for them while the factory owners pockets swell with profit. Don't ever think for one minute that meat factories put a lot into local economies.

Isn't it truely amazing that foreign workers can work for minimum wage and still save (send it home) 45% of their income?? They still have to live in this country - buy food housing ESB etc in this country Truely amazing.

That tells me that the minimum wage is way too here (and taking it further social welfare rates)

This country will continue to be in a mess until it can make itself economically competitive again - minimum wage workers being able to save 45% of their income highlights just how far we have to go before we will be anywhere near competitive.

The biggest problem facing irish farmers at the moment is the huge costs that are being incurred from getting the produce from the field to the plate via the processors and supermarkets. Wages are too high, energy costs are too high, our processors are paying huge rates to county councils. this is a result of direct government policies which are completely distorting business in this country.

Until the mindset of the majority of Irish people (with their huge wage expectations) and the mindset of the government (whatever party) changes then we will never get out of this mess. And Irish farmers are going to find it increasingly difficult to compete on the world stage - not because of their cows, their grass, their wheat. But because of all the wastage inbetween

blue5000

Tipp Man wrote: »

Isn't it truely amazing that foreign workers can work for minimum wage and still save (send it home) 45% of their income?? They still have to live in this country - buy food housing ESB etc in this country Truely amazing.

That tells me that the minimum wage is way too here (and taking it further social welfare rates)

This country will continue to be in a mess until it can make itself economically competitive again - minimum wage workers being able to save 45% of their income highlights just how far we have to go before we will be anywhere near competitive.

The biggest problem facing irish farmers at the moment is the huge costs that are being incurred from getting the produce from the field to the plate via the processors and supermarkets. Wages are too high, energy costs are too high, our processors are paying huge rates to county councils. this is a result of direct government policies which are completely distorting business in this country.

Until the mindset of the majority of Irish people (with their huge wage expectations) and the mindset of the government (whatever party) changes then we will never get out of this mess. And Irish farmers are going to find it increasingly difficult to compete on the world stage - not because of their cows, their grass, their wheat. But because of all the wastage inbetween

Ah come on Tippman, you don't seriously expect Irish ppl to work in a meat plant, for any money, never mind the min wage? We are off topic I know.

Tipp Man

blue5000 wrote: »

Ah come on Tippman, you don't seriously expect Irish ppl to work in a meat plant, for any money, never mind the min wage? We are off topic I know.

Its not that long ago that a job in the nearest meat plant to me was one of the best jobs you could get - they paid top dollar and people were glad of it

blue5000

I agree with you, Irish ppl have much higher expectations now, nobody wants to get their hands dirty anymore.

pakalasa

I just read Justin McCarthy's comments in the Journal. I love the way he just states the facts without passing judgement, especially the "Cows were fed second cut silage ab-lib over the winter". I'd say he got his knuckles wrapped over his initial scathing article a while back.:)

My God, how many suckler farmers don't know, that if you feed cows too well before calving, they will have calving problems. Even the cows know that at this stage.....What are they at?

towzer2010

Could the reason that ad lib silage was being fed to do with working hours.

The lads working there want to knock off so put in loads of silage before they go and forget about it.

tismesoitis

pakalasa wrote: »

I just read Justin McCarthy's comments in the Journal. I love the way he just states the facts without passing judgement, especially the "Cows were fed second cut silage ab-lib over the winter". I'd say he got his knuckles wrapped over his initial scathing article a while back.:)

My God, how many suckler farmers don't know, that if you feed cows too well before calving, they will have calving problems. Even the cows know that at this stage.....What are they at?

i could'nt help thinkin the same!! he seems very unjudgemental in total contrast to the other article. its a pity cos someone really should b able to say it as it is...A DISGRACE

pakalasa

Update in yesterday's Independent;

http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/derrypatrick-can-still-hit-e1000ha-insists-manager-2661446.html

Min

pakalasa wrote: »

Update in yesterday's Independent;

http://www.independent.ie/farming/news-features/derrypatrick-can-still-hit-e1000ha-insists-manager-2661446.html

I read that yesterday, they claim the dead calves and, C sections and the other stuff that went wrong will not stop them making €1,000 per hectare this year...must be getting special grants...

blue5000

Min wrote: »

I read that yesterday, they claim the dead calves and, C sections and the other stuff that went wrong will not stop them making €1,000 per hectare this year...must be getting special grants...

Or it could be due to cull cows making good money this year?;)

bogman_bass

Just to add some balance, It was never claimed that it would hit the 1000 euro target in the first or indeed second year.

Also the new manager said that the the target is still possible but he said nothing about achiving it this year.

LostCovey

bogman_bass wrote: »

Just to add some balance, It was never claimed that it would hit the 1000 euro target in the first or indeed second year.

Also the new manager said that the the target is still possible but he said nothing about achiving it this year.

....and furthermore, I think that Mr Minogue's point about establishing a new herd is a very important one.

I know some people who were depopulated in the past by TB and BSE and they got a cheque and set about building up a new herd. It should be a dream situation you would think - fresh start, big wallet.

They all had severe bother for a few years
- they were sold pups, re pregnancy, age, breed of bull
- they brought in diseases they never had before
- they brought in animals that had never in their lives encountered simple diseases on the new farm like redwater, and in one case had huge losses

I would not try to defend what is indefensible in Derrypatrick (what they paid for bulls for example) , but I think that as a demonstration farm, it is an excellent example of what could well happen to someone who buys or rents or inherits a holding of land and sets out to establish a new herd from scratch.

And I have no doubt that if any of us took on that farm, similar (but different) things would happen.

LostCovey