suckler shed design. 1st draught

johnpawl

Drew this yest, first draught for a slatted shed for 20 - 25 sucklers. Just lookin for advice on the design. I know I'll get slated for having cubicles in there but shur thats why I'm here . Anyway any advice appreciated!

vanderbadger

johnpawl wrote: »

Drew this yest, first draught for a slatted shed for 20 - 25 sucklers. Just lookin for advice on the design. I know I'll get slated for having cubicles in there but shur thats why I'm here . Anyway any advice appreciated!

nice looking job, will you have a entrance at side for creep area that you could get tractor in for cleaning out, also your creep area looks very big, you may not need it as big but sure you can always divide it up I guess or will you put more cubicles in there?

49801

not enough cubiles for 25 cows so why bother at all?
would 12ft 6" slats not be a lot cheaper?
could the foundation for the front of the shed pillars and load bearing wall for the slats be the same element.
open fronted sheds not much fun in the cold snaps.... where you sighting your drinkers?
think you'd better start off with 2 calve pens... would be handier if you could feed silage with machinery to the calve pens.
your creep area is a little big for 25 calves but probably not worth the saving of adjusting

i know I've said it elsewhere already but if you could have a straw area for cow and their calves to share until they are 10days old i would think it of benefit before going back into the slats with the creep. also a straw area for cows you are watching in late pregnancy.

just my thoughts.
best of luck with it

johnpawl

vanderbadger wrote: »

nice looking job, will you have a entrance at side for creep area that you could get tractor in for cleaning out, also your creep area looks very big, you may not need it as big but sure you can always divide it up I guess or will you put more cubicles in there?

Yeah, planning a side entrance alright to get the tractor in, I was thinking creeps too big alright, but would putting more cubicles in there be hassle for me with a hand scraper. I'm wondering about cubicles atall but coming from dairy its hard to plan to have the cows lying on the slats

johnpawl

49801 wrote: »

not enough cubiles for 25 cows so why bother at all?
would 12ft 6" slats not be a lot cheaper?
could the foundation for the front of the shed pillars and load bearing wall for the slats be the same element.
open fronted sheds not much fun in the cold snaps.... where you sighting your drinkers?
think you'd better start off with 2 calve pens... would be handier if you could feed silage with machinery to the calve pens.
your creep area is a little big for 25 calves but probably not worth the saving of adjusting

i know I've said it elsewhere already but if you could have a straw area for cow and their calves to share until they are 10days old i would think it of benefit before going back into the slats with the creep. also a straw area for cows you are watching in late pregnancy.

just my thoughts.
best of luck with it

I'd be getting a crowd in to shutter the tank and I'd do the shed myself, so the founds for the pillars will be put in later. Its well sheltered and we have another open fronted shed n its grand. Not sure about drinkers yet until I've a clearer idea on the layout. I'm thinking I could split that calf pen in two and have two pens of acceptable size, not sure of optimum size for a calving pen.
I take your point about an area for ten days for cow and calf, I can't see a way of accomplishing this without making the shed bigger, unless maybe I removed the cubicles and rearranged the layout.... Thanks for the ideas..

blue5000

Can I suggest an L shaped tank with the feed barrier where it is, and the second tank perpindicular to the tank at Left hand side of the plan.

Put cubicles along both sides of the second tank. Not sure how many cubicles you'll get in, about 22 I think. Your tanks can be narrower at 12'6 tractor slat.

bogman_bass

put a good slope on your straw beds to keep them dry and drop the floor a bit from the slats so the straw can build up without it getting dragged onto the slats

what happen

johnpawl wrote: »

Yeah, planning a side entrance alright to get the tractor in, I was thinking creeps too big alright, but would putting more cubicles in there be hassle for me with a hand scraper. I'm wondering about cubicles atall but coming from dairy its hard to plan to have the cows lying on the slats

whatever you do if you are putting in cubicles have them that you can lift them out of the cubicle bed dont set them in concrete.it will handy to replace them in years to come no breaking concrete.a crush would be good along back wall of creep area.

reilig

johnpawl wrote: »

Drew this yest, first draught for a slatted shed for 20 - 25 sucklers. Just lookin for advice on the design. I know I'll get slated for having cubicles in there but shur thats why I'm here . Anyway any advice appreciated!

I have a shed identical to that, except that mine is a 4 bay. We find the cubicles great for suckler cows - we have mats on them. The majority of them lie on them. We keep the bull in this shed over the winter too and its good to have a cubicle with a rubber mat for his comfort.

Slopes from the creep area to the tank are very important too - as mentioned above.

I'm quite happy with my shed. I have 14ft 6" slats on it. I can clean out the creep area with the tractor and box.

Your design is pretty much a standard design - around here anyway. It has been tried and tested and works well.

Juniorhurler

johnpawl wrote: »

Drew this yest, first draught for a slatted shed for 20 - 25 sucklers. Just lookin for advice on the design. I know I'll get slated for having cubicles in there but shur thats why I'm here . Anyway any advice appreciated!

Will be building a shed for an additional 30 sucklers but it will probably be summer 2012 before the funds allow it. Had almost this exact design in mind except instead of the canopy I was putting a feed passage in front of the feed barrier as our yard is extremely windy. Let me know how you get on with this re price etc. and how practical it is for the winter.

49801

johnpawl wrote: »

I'd be getting a crowd in to shutter the tank and I'd do the shed myself, so the founds for the pillars will be put in later. Its well sheltered and we have another open fronted shed n its grand. Not sure about drinkers yet until I've a clearer idea on the layout. I'm thinking I could split that calf pen in two and have two pens of acceptable size, not sure of optimum size for a calving pen.
I take your point about an area for ten days for cow and calf, I can't see a way of accomplishing this without making the shed bigger, unless maybe I removed the cubicles and rearranged the layout.... Thanks for the ideas..

we've a slatted shed for sucker cows. only ever had an issue with mastitus when a rogue cow starts sucking a cow that is springing. so i'd not put the cubicles in. but thats just my opinion. completely different story for dairy cows but i've not first hand experience of them.

we set up a creep area for calves with straw ontop of boards ontop of slats for when the calves are strong enough and navels are dry enough to go into the slats to suck their cows. works ok. just a pain cleaning the creep area out each year!!!

It is a tall order to ask a calve to creep ontop slats when the navel is not dry which can take a good few days.

3.6m x 4m is the minimum size for a calving pen on teagus web site. smaller pens i belive are easier to keep clean, use less straw and easier to observe calving on cctv. so you should be able to fit 2 pens in the one pen you have.

might be an idea to have some barrier for the cows so you can feed to body condition score pre start of calving and also keep calved cows and uncalved cows separate. makes checking them more straight forward.

might also be no harm to have a small 2ft creep gate a the left hand side so calves can creep through more than on entrance and would also allow you to put a barrier down the calve pen to keep stronger cows&calves to one pen.

my thoughts are worth what you've paid for them;)

vanderbadger

johnpawl wrote: »

Yeah, planning a side entrance alright to get the tractor in, I was thinking creeps too big alright, but would putting more cubicles in there be hassle for me with a hand scraper. I'm wondering about cubicles atall but coming from dairy its hard to plan to have the cows lying on the slats

ya i have cubicles and to be honest half the cows wont go up onto them, not used to them i guess, i never have a problem with the ones that stay on the slats ( I dont have slat mats either) really so you might be as well off with slat mats

barryoc1

Johnpawl, what kind of centres are you proposing for your columns? 4.8 metres? For sucklers i imagine your cubicles would need to be 1.2m c/c, depending on the size of your cows, that means approx. 4 cubicles per bay.

johnpawl

barryoc1 wrote: »

Johnpawl, what kind of centres are you proposing for your columns? 4.8 metres? For sucklers i imagine your cubicles would need to be 1.2m c/c, depending on the size of your cows, that means approx. 4 cubicles per bay.

Hey barry, ya its 4.8 metres alright, thats not good news when I was already short on cubicles..some cows'll be parthenaise and part crosses so i'll need bigger cubicle spaces I guess...

johnpawl

reilig wrote: »

I have a shed identical to that, except that mine is a 4 bay. We find the cubicles great for suckler cows - we have mats on them. The majority of them lie on them. We keep the bull in this shed over the winter too and its good to have a cubicle with a rubber mat for his comfort.

Slopes from the creep area to the tank are very important too - as mentioned above.

I'm quite happy with my shed. I have 14ft 6" slats on it. I can clean out the creep area with the tractor and box.

Your design is pretty much a standard design - around here anyway. It has been tried and tested and works well.

I was thinking about that, would i be better off with a wall on one side instead of two doors so I could back the tractor and box up against the wall and save the dungfork...
Also how many cubicles did you fit in in your shed?

pakalasa

Just a thought on cubicles. Better to have them so that you can adjust both the width and length of them down the road, if you want to. We have them in a shed fro sucklesr and with bigger cows (~700Kgs), they find them a bit too tight. Cows need to lunge forward too when they get up, so a head rail is much better than a solid wall so set the length.

Nice design overall though - did you use Autocad?

johnpawl

pakalasa wrote: »

Just a thought on cubicles. Better to have them so that you can adjust both the width and length of them down the road, if you want to. We have them in a shed fro sucklesr and with bigger cows (~700Kgs), they find them a bit too tight. Cows need to lunge forward too when they get up, so a head rail is much better than a solid wall so set the length.

Nice design overall though - did you use Autocad?

Ya I used Autocad 2006. I used to draw them out for teagasc back in the grant days, I had a load of them stored so it was a case of copy and paste, then moving things around. Prob is every one of those was dairy, plus I used to always get a freehand sketch with rough measurements from teagasc advisor so this is the first time I've had to design myself.
How can you have the cubicles adjustable in length and width?

pakalasa

johnpawl wrote: »

Ya I used Autocad 2006. I used to draw them out for teagasc back in the grant days, I had a load of them stored so it was a case of copy and paste, then moving things around. Prob is every one of those was dairy, plus I used to always get a freehand sketch with rough measurements from teagasc advisor so this is the first time I've had to design myself.
How can you have the cubicles adjustable in length and width?

Have you tried any of the 3D design packakes like Solidworks or Pro-E? Would make designing something like this even easier.
About the cubicles - have a look at the following video, at 1:56 for width adjustable (bolt down joints) and 2.44 for length adjustment (head rail). Both combined at 2:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPqqTHyFKmg&list=PL56C4B64B4D98EFF6

johnpawl

pakalasa wrote: »

Have you tried any of the 3D design packakes like Solidworks or Pro-E? Would make designing something like this even easier.
About the cubicles - have a look at the following video, at 1:56 for width adjustable (bolt down joints) and 2.44 for length adjustment (head rail). Both combined at 2:53
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPqqTHyFKmg&list=PL56C4B64B4D98EFF6

I get it now, thanks for the link. Ya I can use solidworks alright, well I'm not great with it now tbh, was thinking about it but came to the conclusion that drawing all the parts and assembling them might be a bit head wreckin. Would look the job when done alright tho. Are you into that side of things?

pakalasa

johnpawl wrote: »

...Are you into that side of things?

Ya, I use Pro-E a lot in my 'other life'. It's more practice than anything, I guess, but I would use 3D for everything except maybe floor layouts or other 2D things.

reilig

On cubicles.
I've seen loads of sheds with just rubber mats on the lying area - no steel cubicles to make a space for each cow. A simple scrape down once a week leaves them very clean. Cows are more encouraged to lie up there when there are no steel cubicles blocking their path.

vanderbadger

what are you expecting to put the shed up for Johnpawl?..heard of chap at home who got a 4 bay tank like your done with slats for 12k right or wrong, seems to be better value now that during grant days

johnpawl

vanderbadger wrote: »

what are you expecting to put the shed up for Johnpawl?..heard of chap at home who got a 4 bay tank like your done with slats for 12k right or wrong, seems to be better value now that during grant days

I got a quote of e100 per linear foot for a 14ft6 tank, that consists of shuttering done and concrete and steel paid for. Same crowd were apparently e220 per foot during the grant days...... I havent priced slats yet so haven't a clue about them. Anyone know of a good place to source slats?

vanderbadger

johnpawl wrote: »

I got a quote of e100 per linear foot for a 14ft6 tank, that consists of shuttering done and concrete and steel paid for. Same crowd were apparently e220 per foot during the grant days...... I havent priced slats yet so haven't a clue about them. Anyone know of a good place to source slats?

mcgraths quarries in Clare make them but I dont know what quality is like, banagher slats were fairly popular but dont know if they are still going

49801

who makes the slat with a rounded bottom profile. suppose to be a very clean slat.

we've kiely slats from blarney. they are ok but they are a dirty slat http://www.wmkiely.ie/home.html

Pat the lad

reilig wrote: »

On cubicles.
I've seen loads of sheds with just rubber mats on the lying area - no steel cubicles to make a space for each cow. A simple scrape down once a week leaves them very clean. Cows are more encouraged to lie up there when there are no steel cubicles blocking their path.

yeah seen this for done for the calves in a creep area - 3 span shed with 10ft wide pad for cubicles but cubicles not in. instead had rubber mats for calves to lie on. good slope on cubicle pad, falling into slatted tank with feed barrier for calves. he had autum calving herd some calves were 2-3 months old when being housed. I would think you might need straw if calves were being born in doors.
reilig - how was it working for cows??

johnpawl

Well lads, heres another draught taking on board some of the suggestions I got. Whats the consensus, better or worse.....

what happen

johnpawl wrote: »

Well lads, heres another draught taking on board some of the suggestions I got. Whats the consensus, better or worse.....

ya thats the job now will you go for fibre cement sheeting or the cladding .the fibre cement sheeting is a lot queiter in the rain and will last 80 years.will you use space sheeting on the roof.i have the cubicles with the rubber mats and cows that didnt go into them before rubber mats do now.

bogman_bass

Just a couple of ideas. you could have the floor sloping to the middle of the creep area to a heavy manhole grate with a wooden lid on top.

maybe move the front of the crush away from the wall so you can work both sides

pakalasa

bogman_bass wrote: »

...maybe move the front of the crush away from the wall so you can work both sides

I was going to say the same thing. Very handy, especially when calving cows, great to be able to open back crush gates (sides of crush) on both sides if the cow goes down. Also handy when skulling cattle, to be able to get at the head of an animal easily from both sides.

Other thing too - location - keep shed away from farm boundry, hedges etc. You may want to expand in any direction in a few years time. Try and keep things as flexible as possible too. Have barriers, gates etc removable.

Grecco

johnpawl wrote: »

Well lads, heres another draught taking on board some of the suggestions I got. Whats the consensus, better or worse.....

Well lads,
I notice that theres a nice bit of concrete between the feed barrier and the edge, about half a meter? If you leave that much floor there the sh1t builds up there and the cattle will lie there also; its not a major issue but it tends to make the cattle very dirty.

49801

am glad you've take on the idea of a cow&calf nurse area.
will you be able to use your crush/race as a funnel for fresh born calves to the nursing area?
will you use an up and over barrier on the slats?
not sure about the fall of the cow calf area leading to the calf area. how about a fall towards the water trough with a greese trap with an outlet pipe to the tank.

still dont see why your bothering with the cubicles.
in dairy its a hygiene issue and also saves on initial building cost as you scrap to a tank which you wont be doing. are you not suppose to have more than 1 cubicle per animal due to potential bullying? but you know what you want to do and i've already tried to talk you out of them. maybe its saving you a little on the cost of the tank?

will you be able to feed silage to the calving pens and nurse pen where the sliding door is?

you could probably have a shared water trough for the two calving pens too. its handy if you can just reach in through the barriers to clean any dung out.

looks like its coming into shape nicely!

good luck
49801

49801

just thought of one other feature that would be on my wish list.
some stile's.... fed up of climbing through the barriers;)

johnpawl

49801 wrote: »

am glad you've take on the idea of a cow&calf nurse area.
will you be able to use your crush/race as a funnel for fresh born calves to the nursing area?
will you use an up and over barrier on the slats?
not sure about the fall of the cow calf area leading to the calf area. how about a fall towards the water trough with a greese trap with an outlet pipe to the tank.

still dont see why your bothering with the cubicles.
in dairy its a hygiene issue and also saves on initial building cost as you scrap to a tank which you wont be doing. are you not suppose to have more than 1 cubicle per animal due to potential bullying? but you know what you want to do and i've already tried to talk you out of them. maybe its saving you a little on the cost of the tank?

will you be able to feed silage to the calving pens and nurse pen where the sliding door is?

you could probably have a shared water trough for the two calving pens too. its handy if you can just reach in through the barriers to clean any dung out.

looks like its coming into shape nicely!

good luck
49801

I think I might just go with having rubber mats on the lying area and doing away with the cubicles here yet....

futurefarmer

That €100 per foot is that for digging out shuttering and pouring the concrete ? just doing some rough figures myself to have an idea of what i might need

Thanks

johnpawl

futurefarmer wrote: »

That €100 per foot is that for digging out shuttering and pouring the concrete ? just doing some rough figures myself to have an idea of what i might need

Thanks

It doesn't include digging out, it includes shuttering and concrete and steel. By the way does anyone know if I need planning for this shed? Its going in a greenfield site.I rang cork county coucil planning twice and they couldnt give me an answer.....

johnpawl

vanderbadger wrote: »

what are you expecting to put the shed up for Johnpawl?..heard of chap at home who got a 4 bay tank like your done with slats for 12k right or wrong, seems to be better value now that during grant days

got a quote back today for the complete shed inluding vat and delivery -e14,300. Shed just needs to be erected and bolted together. That includes 2 extra pillars in the gables, all steel cut to size, all sheeting, galvanised box gutters, nuts bolts etc. 200mm x 100mm H irons, shot blasted, primed and painted... No idea if this a good price....
edit. Another price of e10,500, excluding delivery

blue5000

Are you not goin to get galv pillars, I haven't done it yet on anything I've built but it might be worth getting a quote for it?

You won't feel another grand or two going on dividing gates, water troughs, doors etc. don't forget to factor it in if you have to borrow for the shed.

Planning will take 3 months minimum before you can start so did you find out yet if you need it? You could be under pressure for this winter......

vanderbadger

johnpawl wrote: »

got a quote back today for the complete shed inluding vat and delivery -e14,300. Shed just needs to be erected and bolted together. That includes 2 extra pillars in the gables, all steel cut to size, all sheeting, galvanised box gutters, nuts bolts etc. 200mm x 100mm H irons, shot blasted, primed and painted... No idea if this a good price....
edit. Another price of e10,500, excluding delivery

I think there is good enough value in sheds at the moment, I have ordered a 63x30 portal shed, galvanised pillars, large sliding door fitted at one end, all erected and inc VAT for 10k euro and 500 extra for non drip sheeting. whatever you do get the galvanised pillars I reckon.

49801

is there not a problem with galvanised and sh1t. or is it galv and silage... i forget.
might be worth looking into painting the bottom couple of feet of pillars with a bitumen type paint if they will be exposed.

theMountain

I recommend galvanizing the steel and use fiber cement sheeting for the roof. Forget about the non drip sheeting as it dripped last year during the heavy frost in a friend shed that he was using for machinery. Wasn't happy !

Supertech

johnpawl wrote: »

By the way does anyone know if I need planning for this shed? Its going in a greenfield site.I rang cork county coucil planning twice and they couldnt give me an answer.....

Certain conditions apply to exemption from planning, mainly relating to the floor area of buildings already existing on your farm and to distances from public roads and other buildings.

Handy link here - http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/Planning/FileDownLoad,1587,en.pdf

You seem to be just below the floor area limit, and you're under the maximum height, so the rest depends on the location of the proposed shed, and what you have on site already.

pakalasa

Just a small thing, but use standard 12" gates where possible in the shed. Move the gates from the fields then during the winter. It will save you having to buy gates for the shed and they wont be stolen either from the fields during the winter. I do it the whoel time. I've brackets welded onto the side of the Ifor Williams to carry them.:D

johnpawl

Just checked with the council and I'll be exempt from planning alright. I'm going to get a price next week of just buying all the stuff and making the shed myself, see will the difference be worth the hassle....

johnpawl

Some people were asking me to let them know how I was getting on with prices on this, so current price on tank is ; 3 bay with agitation point on one end, tank roughly 53ft long is e10k. This consists of; digging out, steel supplied and tied, concrete supplied and shuttered, tractor slats supplied and fitted, tank backfilled. What ye think of this?

blue5000

how deep and wide is the tank?

barryoc1

Johnpawl, considering what i paid for my 3 bay tank back in the time of the grant that sounds very reasonable. I presume it will be 8 foot deep. How wide? Think the steel for mine cost about 4500 at the time. Also, put an agitation point at both ends. Far better. Can be difficult to agitate beyond 2 bays unles the stuff is very watery.

johnpawl

tank wide enough to accommodate 14ft6 slats, 8ft deep. 12 inch thick walls, 30 newton concrete. Steel in tank to roughly two thirds grant spec....

blue5000

Sounds ok to me, do a few cubes on the readymix just in case.

aneala

Hi all,

First time on here, just looking at your drawings and reading comments. Looks like a mighty job, costs seem fairly keen too. 1 or 2 things I'd add:

-Don't bother with non drip as it's not great (I use to sell it, back in good old grant days:)) you don't need it as when the shed is open at the front condensation will be minimal, also the noise is greatly reduced with this design (waves dissipate) so fibre sheeting not really worth extra €€€,(IMO). Plastisol (plastic) coated sheeting will have 30-40 yr life expectancy min.
-Unless you have MIG welder and are set up for cutting all bevels etc you'd be hard pressed to do it cheaper and definately will be more hassle.
-Defo agree about the 2nd agitation point, spent the last 3 years lifting out a slat at the far end to get the s**t stirred:mad:

johnpawl

aneala wrote: »

Hi all,

First time on here, just looking at your drawings and reading comments. Looks like a mighty job, costs seem fairly keen too. 1 or 2 things I'd add:

-Don't bother with non drip as it's not great (I use to sell it, back in good old grant days:)) you don't need it as when the shed is open at the front condensation will be minimal, also the noise is greatly reduced with this design (waves dissipate) so fibre sheeting not really worth extra €€€,(IMO). Plastisol (plastic) coated sheeting will have 30-40 yr life expectancy min.
-Unless you have MIG welder and are set up for cutting all bevels etc you'd be hard pressed to do it cheaper and definately will be more hassle.
-Defo agree about the 2nd agitation point, spent the last 3 years lifting out a slat at the far end to get the s**t stirred:mad:

Thanks for the info. Just wondering why you think the MIG has such an advantage over the arc welder? I have both by the way.
Thanks,
JP.