Rail Safety Checks Not Carried Out

nanu nanu

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/watchdog-claims-key-safety-checks-on-rail-network-not-carried-out-2654582.html

:eek::eek:

LXFlyer

All the more reason for Dr Lynch to be sent on his way.

foggy_lad

nanu nanu wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/watchdog-claims-key-safety-checks-on-rail-network-not-carried-out-2654582.html

:eek::eek:

Wow. so their answer to this is we are improving our safety procedures by not doing any safety checks but thanks for being concerned.

nanu nanu

I believe that this is as serious at it gets. Who is in charge?

LXFlyer

The Executive Chairman as per post 2.

n97 mini

<Threads Merged>

By Paul Melia
Monday May 23 2011
IARNROD Eireann failed to carry out key safety checks across the rail network for more than a year after one of the country's busiest lines fell into the sea, the Irish Independent has learnt.

Audits carried out by watchdog the Railway Safety Commission (RSC) in May, September and October last year found "no evidence" that inspections of tracks and signalling equipment were being carried out as often as needed.

The audits found there was "no immediate risk" to people.

However, the RSC has ordered the railway company to make changes to its safety systems to ensure the travelling public are not put in jeopardy.

The reports were carried out after a section of one of the country's busiest rail lines fell into the sea at Malahide, north Dublin in August 2009 because the semi-state company forgot how it was constructed.

An investigation concluded workmen carrying out safety checks did not know how to properly assess the structure because the knowledge had been lost over time.

Iarnrod Eireann is required by law to implement a safety management system and prepare a safety case that the RSC must accept before it is permitted to operate train services.

Although the rail operator ran a safe network, it found, the three reports warned the safety case was not being followed, which posed a risk.

A report from September 2010 into the maintenance of railway points, which allow trains to be guided from one track to another, said there was "insufficient evidence" the points were being regularly inspected.

There was also no proof the crossings had undergone ultrasonic testing in the previous 12 months, which would identify flaws and problems.

"If points are not maintained they can, in certain circumstances, lead to a train derailing," the RSC said.

Of 17 derailments between 2006 and 2009, the condition of the tracks was a factor in five.

Iarnrod Eireann said the audits helped strengthen safety and that the company was updating its systems.

"Iarnrod Eireann has in recent times been actively transforming its safety management system, and the fact that this is in process is stated throughout the audits. The issues identified are being addressed."

- Paul Melia

Irish Independent

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/watchdog-claims-key-safety-checks-on-rail-network-not-carried-out-2654582.html

n97 mini

What exactly are we paying Dick Fearne for again?

LXFlyer

More importantly what are we paying Dr Lynch for?

The man should have gone when the viaduct collapsed.

As executive chairman he is the person with ultimate executive responsibility. How he has stayed in his position I will never know.

OurLadyofKnock

n97 mini wrote: »

What exactly are we paying Dick Fearne for again?

Setting up Railway Children specials for his chums from the Mainland?

Cookie_Monster

nanu nanu wrote: »

I believe that this is as serious at it gets. Who is in charge?

no one it seems

Judgement Day

Why am I not surprised? I asked about viaduct inspection vehicles in another thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67109674 and nobody was able to give me an answer. I firmly believe that there is still much of the railway infrastructure that is nearing the end of its life expectancy and CIE/IE are overwhelmed by the scale of the problem. Look at this item: http://www.citymayors.com/development/us-infrastructure.html which concerns problems with 1950/60s infrastructure in the USA and we are talking about problems with Irish railway infrastructure from the 1850/60s! :eek:

Just found this interesting e-tender from Iarnrod Eireann: http://www.ga.etenders.gov.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=FEB141975

Pineapple stu

All the report says that there wasnt any proof that the checks was made meaning it wasnt documented. It doesnt mean that checks wasnt done.
Saftey tours and saftey briefings are a daily occurance in all departments and has been stepped up .

-Chris-

I think it would have been "prudent" at the very least to document any safety checks that occurred, especially once you know there's been an issue and it's liable to be looked at closely by the media/public.

At the very best it's terribly poor management, at the worst it's severe negligance.

nanu nanu

Are the tracks safe or not? I thought that Lynch, Fearns and some new guy with a big folder told the Oireachtas Transport Team that all was in order.

Pineapple stu

A trackwalker would only document any defects that he sees and that would be handed to his Inspector who would then act on it depending how serious the defect was. As for the viaduct, the trackwalker wouldnt have any knowladge of what state the bridge was in underneath.

Pineapple stu

nanu nanu wrote: »

Are the tracks safe or not? I thought that Lynch, Fearns and some new guy with a big folder told the Oireachtas Transport Team that all was in order.

Yep, even more so since the whole network got relaid to CWR.

n97 mini

nanu nanu wrote: »

Are the tracks safe or not?

I think the point is that we don't know. They might be, they might not be.

There were 5 derailments between 2006 and 2009 where track condition played a part (was the cause?)

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Yep, even more so since the whole network got relaid to CWR.

Not sure how you can answer that with such authority given the facts.

nanu nanu

Pineapple stu wrote: »

All the report says that there wasnt any proof that the checks was made meaning it wasnt documented. It doesnt mean that checks wasnt done.
Saftey tours and saftey briefings are a daily occurance in all departments and has been stepped up .

So not recording checks means that they are done and there is no need to worry especially when efforts have been stepped up to eliminate holes in the system?
That is idiotic.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

I think the point is that we don't know. They might be, they might not be.

There were 5 derailments between 2006 and 2009 where track condition played a part (was the cause?)

What was the locations for those ? sidings? mainline?

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

Not sure how you can answer that with such authority given the facts.

Not much facts there now is there? some chap goes and makes a survey by asking people questions and doesnt go out and look at the conditions on the railway himself.
Trust me, the railway is safe

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Trust me, the railway is safe

Ah grand. I'll tell the RSC they've nothing to worry about. The lack of records isn't important when you have some anonymous bloke on an internet forum you can trust.

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

What was the locations for those ? sidings? mainline?

I witnessed one of them myself in Pearse Station, on the mainline. But shur we have some bloke on an internet forum that tells us it's all sorted now.

Pineapple stu

nanu nanu wrote: »

So not recording checks means that they are done and there is no need to worry especially when efforts have been stepped up to eliminate holes in the system?
That is idiotic.

Like i said , if there is a defect it will be recorded, if there isnt then it wont track wise. If an engineer has to go and look at a bridge or something for whatever reason then im sure the result would be recorded somehow. If points dont work then they will be fixed straight away , if there is a broken rail , then it would be fixed straight away, if there is any part of the track that is deemed dangerous and needs to be fixed it would be fixed straight away.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

I witnessed one of them myself in Pearse Station, on the mainline. But shur we have some bloke on an internet forum that tells us it's all sorted now.

Do you know the cause of it ? do you know if it was down to defective rail ? What derailed? engine? train? dart in service ? Train in service ?

Fulton Crown

Just another example of ongoing public service cock ups that this poster has been banging on about

Common theme to them all....nobody responsible and no heads roll no matter how serious.

Look ...Fas...Continued and blatent misuse of taxpayer money...head honcho walks away with an Audi 6 and a trouser full of loot.

Banks ..Continued reckless lending over an extended period...Regulator retires on a trouserfull of loot and a 200k per annum pension.

Senior bankers retire with trouserfulls of loot and huge pensions.

Education chiefs spend over 100k on taxis over an extended period...nobody picks it up.....nobody responsible for approving......nobody resigns.

Music wallah spends over 200k on "entertainment" and trousers huge salary for a part time position......

What the Faaaaaaaaaak ! :mad:

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

Ah grand. I'll tell the RSC they've nothing to worry about. The lack of records isn't important when you have some anonymous bloke on an internet forum you can trust.

Yep, you do that what is the injury or death amount recorded ?

-Chris-

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Yep, you do that what is the injury or death amount recorded ?

How many people need to die before it's considered good sense to keep a record of safety inspections?

Fulton Crown

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Yep, you do that what is the injury or death amount recorded ?

The problem pal is that there is nothing recorded...but I have no worries now that you are on the case :rolleyes:

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Do you know the cause of it ? do you know if it was down to defective rail ? What derailed? engine? train? dart in service ? Train in service ?

I was on my way to work so I didn't have time to stop and ask. It was a carriage off a mainline rail train, on the main line through the station, afair.

Pineapple stu

Fulton Crown wrote: »

The problem pal is that there is nothing recorded...but I have no worries now that you are on the case :rolleyes:

But you dont know if that is true now do you

Pineapple stu

-Chris- wrote: »

How many people need to die before it's considered good sense to keep a record of safety inspections?

None.

They do keep a record of saftey inspection more so lately like i said above. It all depends whats been inspected and by who. There isnt a need for a trackwalker to report anything unless he finds something that needs attention. An engineer would document the results of whatever checks that he/she was doing and where and on what.

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

There isnt a need for a trackwalker to report anything unless he finds something that needs attention

This is where you are wrong. The track-walker needs to report that he/she did the inspection in the first place, else no-one knows. This is the whole point of that article.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

I was on my way to work so I didn't have time to stop and ask. It was a carriage off a mainline rail train, on the main line through the station, afair.

Which end? or was it in the middle?

Solair

It's this line that made me really worried :

The reports were carried out after a section of one of the country's busiest rail lines fell into the sea at Malahide, north Dublin in August 2009 because the semi-state company forgot how it was constructed.

shamwari

Solair wrote: »

It's this line that made me really worried :

The reports were carried out after a section of one of the country's busiest rail lines fell into the sea at Malahide, north Dublin in August 2009 because the semi-state company forgot how it was constructed.

That was bad alright. But the fact that nobody in a senior position took anything like a rap was perhaps worse. For a start, I felt Lynch should have been fired.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

This is where you are wrong. The track-walker needs to report that he/she did the inspection in the first place, else no-one knows. This is the whole point of that article.

He knows

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

He knows

Does he post anonymously on an internet forum, or how is anyone else to know?

Pineapple stu

I like this bit

the rail operator ran a safe network,

Iarnrod Eireann said the audits helped strengthen safety and that the company was updating its systems.
"Iarnrod Eireann has in recent times been actively transforming its safety management system, and the fact that this is in process is stated throughout the audits. The issues identified are being addressed."

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Which end? or was it in the middle?

TBH I don't really remember that well. It was to the southern end of the station. Don't ask me which track(s) it was on.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

Does he post anonymously on an internet forum, or how is anyone else to know?

I dont know but i doubt if he would post on here his results after walking all day .
How do you know that he doesnt ring his Inspector and tell him that he is finished and all is well or banjaxed ?

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

I dont know but i doubt if he would post on here his results after walking all day .
How do you know that he doesnt ring his Inspector and tell him that he is finished and all is well or banjaxed ?

And how do we know his inspector doesn't say "talk to the hole cos the hand aint listening?"

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

TBH I don't really remember that well. It was to the southern end of the station. Don't ask me which track(s) it was on.

Sounds like a shunt mishap to me. Shunter done a boo boo.

Pineapple stu

n97 mini wrote: »

And how do we know his inspector doesn't say "talk to the hole cos the hand aint listening?"

Why do you want to know what the inspector says?

n97 mini

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Why do you want to know what the inspector says?

Why do you answer a question with a question?

Pineapple stu

seems the right thing to do at the time.

I cant believe this thread has gone this far considering it says in the article that Irish Rail have done something about it.

Thoie

Even the toilets on the bloody trains have records stating the time they were last checked, and by who, but we can't say the same about the tracks they're running on?

foggy_lad

Pineapple stu wrote: »

All the report says that there wasnt any proof that the checks was made meaning it wasnt documented. It doesnt mean that checks wasnt done.
Saftey tours and saftey briefings are a daily occurance in all departments and has been stepped up .

Safety tours or briefings do not occur at all without evidence that they have been done.

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Yep, even more so since the whole network got relaid to CWR.

At least when old rail is replaced with CWR someone notes it down somewhere so it is not replaced every few months!

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Not much facts there now is there? some chap goes and makes a survey by asking people questions and doesnt go out and look at the conditions on the railway himself.
Trust me, the railway is safe

No faith in Irish rails safety practices when they keep no records of basic checks!
And those inspectors were there to check records of safety checks(which as far as we know were never carried out) not to do the checks for lazy Irish rail staff!

Pineapple stu wrote: »

None.

They do keep a record of saftey inspection more so lately like i said above. It all depends whats been inspected and by who. There isnt a need for a trackwalker to report anything unless he finds something that needs attention. An engineer would document the results of whatever checks that he/she was doing and where and on what.

Everyone testing or checking track points etc should be keeping records even if it is "nothing to report" but maybe that would stop them going home early at the end of a shift?

Pineapple stu wrote: »

He knows

Like they knew the Malahide viaduct was supported underneath the water and would be eroded by the force of water?

You are making a very strong case for taking the safety of the railways out of the incompetent hands of Irish rail staff when they can't keep simple records.

Pineapple stu

Thoie wrote: »

Even the toilets on the bloody trains have records stating the time they were last checked, and by who, but we can't say the same about the tracks they're running on?

Do you want check cards placed at various locations on the routes so you can see who inspected the tracks and at what time? you wont see them from a passing train would you.

Pineapple stu

foggy_lad wrote: »

Safety tours or briefings do not occur at all without evidence that they have been done.

At least when old rail is replaced with CWR someone notes it down somewhere so it is not replaced every few months!

No faith in Irish rails safety practices when they keep no records of basic checks!
And those inspectors were there to check records of safety checks(which as far as we know were never carried out) not to do the checks for lazy Irish rail staff!
Everyone testing or checking track points etc should be keeping records even if it is "nothing to report" but maybe that would stop them going home early at the end of a shift?

Like they knew the Malahide viaduct was supported underneath the water and would be eroded by the force of water?

You are making a very strong case for taking the safety of the railways out of the incompetent hands of Irish rail staff when they can't keep simple records.

You are way off the mark dont be assuming things

Thoie

Pineapple stu wrote: »

Do you want check cards placed at various locations on the routes so you can see who inspected the tracks and at what time? you wont see them from a passing train would you.

That'd be lovely thanks - I've great eyesight.

Alternatively, for those less blessed, the track walker could have preprinted sheets on which he fills out the date, route, his name and pertinent details such as "no problems" or "jesus, that bit's going to fall off arrrrgh it's on my foot". These would then be signed off by a supervisor and filed on his return to base. That's the cheap and cheerful solution.

A more high tech solution is a GPS enabled device which bleeps every x distance, where he stops and fills in the details since the last bleep. This magical device allows him to take photos if he encounters anything problematic. The data is transmitted back to a central database and shows a handy record that things have been checked if anyone comes asking later. At the same time, problem areas are highlighted on the system using the GPS coordinates from the picture or from his waypoint. These problem areas could then be used for coordinating engineering crews/random passing experts.

There are a multitude of ways that checks can be documented and records kept.