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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)
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A Christian model for slavery (!) is still slavery. Does any more need to be said on that point?
Nothing more needs to be said, you just need to actually read what's being said
You have responsibilities as a contracted employee.
I know, and I also have responsibilities as a Christian in respect to my work. It's not entirely secular is what I'm sayingYes Phil, I get that. Paul is telling slaveowners to be nice to their slaves, and is telling slaves to work well for their masters. This is hardly radical stuff, is it? Wasn't Seneca writing similiar earlier in the century? And didn't Cato eat with his slaves? Indeed, a good slave was considered valuable property, and hard to replace. The only new element that Paul is adding to this is the concept of Christ (not, tellingly, Jesus, but Christ).
BTW, would Jesus have kept slaves?
Paul or Peter aren't adding anything to Christ. What they are saying is we are Christians, this is what Jesus has done for us, how does this apply to the world around us.
They aren't instituting slavery, rather all they are saying is that it is a reality in the world around them that needs to be engaged with as a Christian.
Paul's statement precludes an abusive relationship between masters and slaves in verse 9.0 -
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philologos wrote: »Nothing more needs to be said, you just need to actually read what's being said
This is what I read.philologos wrote: »I believe that slavery if it was practiced as Paul describes in verses 5-9 isn't problematic. Where it becomes problematic is where there is inherent abuse involved.
I read this as meaning that you, an educated citizen of the 21st Century, have no problem with slavery if master and slave both follow Ephesians 6:5-9.
Have I got it right?philologos wrote: »Paul or Peter aren't adding anything to Christ. What they are saying is we are Christians, this is what Jesus has done for us, how does this apply to the world around us.
They aren't instituting slavery, rather all they are saying is that it is a reality in the world around them that needs to be engaged with as a Christian.
Paul's statement precludes an abusive relationship between masters and slaves in verse 9.
'Be nice to your slaves' was not exactly a radical idea for the 1st Century. A Roman slaveowner regarded a slave as valuable property, and capable of great mischief if abused, especially for domestic or household slaves (not so for the poor creatures down the mines, however). All Paul is doing is adding 'because, Christ' (if you'll pardon the brevity). Now, I notice you didn't answer my hypothetical question about Jesus keeping slaves; and, as I noted, Paul is talking about Christ, not Jesus. But that's a conversation for another time, perhaps.0 -
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Perhaps you could define what, exactly, a slave was in this time, in contrast to a free person. This does not require a scriptural interpretation, I simply want to know what a “slave” was in those days.
What Paul is saying is what matters. We don't need anything more than this.
Paul is saying that a slave should submit to his master as one submits to Christ.
Paul is also saying that a master should honour his slaves as Jesus honours us.
The last bit is what you, Zombrex and pauldla are ignoring.No. Were they slaves not? In simple terms, irrespective of how Paul told them to behave or how Paul told the master to treat them, were they owned by another person and did they have basic human rights restricted or removed.
Yes, they were, but Paul is offering us a definition of what slavery should look like from a Christian point of view in 6:5-9.What mistreatment am I talking about? A slave treated with respect is still a slave.
You seem to be applying assumptions from what you know about colonial slavery to what Paul has written which is radically different.I don’t think so, unless we are talking about some kind of slave that is not actually a slave.
Perhaps if you actually listen to what Paul is saying you'll understand what Paul is saying about what slavery should be like. What's astounding is your unwillingness to actually read what Paul is writing.So, just to confirm, you have no issue with one human being owning another human being, controlling what they do for a living, controlling who they associate with and not allowing them to go wherever they please?
I have no issue with what Paul is saying in Ephesians 6:5-9. It'd be great if we could actually discuss what Paul says rather than your assumptions
That's all I need to say. I also have no issue with Colossians 3:23-4:1 or 1 Peter 2:18-19, or indeed 1 Corinthians 7:21-23.Additionally, no comparison can be drawn between a person in the 21st century with a contract of service, protection of the law and the right to leave a job, move and associate with whomsoever one pleases and a slave in Roman times.
In the context of what Paul has already said, I couldn't agree. The early Christian perspective is summed up rather nicely on the Wikipedia article about Slavery in the Roman Empire:Both the Stoics and some early Christians opposed the ill-treatment of slaves, rather than slavery itself. Advocates of these philosophies saw them as ways to live within human societies as they were, rather than to overthrow entrenched institutions. In the Christian scriptures equal pay and fair treatment of slaves was enjoined upon slave masters, and slaves were advised to obey their earthly masters and lawfully obtain freedom if possible
I agree with that perspective, Christians didn't want to overthrow Roman government even when they were viciously persecuted by it. Rather Christians wanted to change peoples beliefs to see that if they are following Christ it should have implications for how they live in a godless world.Of course, one should work hard and loyally for one’s boss, and a boss should be respectful to his or her employees, but really, do we need a biblical passage about the proper treatment of slaves to tell us how we should behave in a modern workplace?
MrP
The point towards the end of Ephesians is to look at what impact following Jesus should have on their daily lives in three areas. This is one of them.
I think we do need Ephesians. I think that even today people aren't following these, and I think that if people did, the workplace would be a much better place.0 -
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Wow, this thread took a some what unexpected turn. I expected to post the slavery issue and for Phil to come up with some rather convoluted explanation as to why Paul is not actually supporting slavery, and then I would compare this to the convoluted explanations for why Paul is not actually condemning loving homosexual unions.
I genuinely never expected for a second that Phil would actually start arguing that slavery is fine and good if done properly, if slave masters don't "abuse" their slaves.
Their slaves!. Even a description of slavery demonstrates the inherent immorality of slavery. In 2013 I'm having a discussion with someone about the right way to operate slavery. Let me just say that again, the right way to operate slavery. The "not problematic" way to own people.
It has been a while since I've genuinely be flabbergasted by this forum. Religion posions everything, and Phil you are a walking example of that. What the hell happened to you? :mad:
Welcome to my ignore list.
The outrage doesn't suit you. I know you have more to you than the post above, and that a thoughtful poster like yourself would recognise that a poster like Phil deserves the opposite of being ignored. I also think of all those people who get outraged about this stuff, I hope you are not wearing Nike, Levis, GAP etc. In many respects, a lot of people pontificate about these things while reaping the rewards of global slavery, child labour and all sorts of morally questionable regimes etc. So before casting stones from high horses, I think you need to check for greenhouses (Wow, that was cliché-tastic ) Anyway...
Below is from the book of 1 Samuel. It details how the circumstance with which God allowed Israel have a King. Notice that it is not what God actually wants, but rather he allows it, and in turn legislates for it.1 Samuel 8 wrote:When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[a] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.”
6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the Lord. 7 And the Lord told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”
10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the Lord. 22 The Lord answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”
Then Samuel said to the Israelites, “Everyone go back to your own town.”
Below is From Matthew 19, where Jesus tells us what marriage truly is in terms of God, and that divorce etc, are allowances that Moses gave because of their hard hearts.Matthew 19 wrote:Now when Jesus had finished these sayings, he went away from Galilee and entered the region of Judea beyond the Jordan. 2 And large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.
3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful to divorce one's wife for any cause?” 4 He answered, “Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.” 7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?” 8 He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”[a]
10 The disciples said to him, “If such is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 But he said to them, “Not everyone can receive this saying, but only those to whom it is given. 12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”
So there are things that God has allowed to happen, that are not things that he actually wants for us. In terms of slavery and God, well we are all slaves anyway. Slaves of Christ, or slaves of sin. In terms of slavery as defined as being the possession of a master, well I can't disagree that there is no explicit 'Though shall not keep a person as a servant', but just because there are guidelines for something, does not mean that something is actually something that is desired, as exemplified by the above scriptures. Paul, when talking about the qualification criteria for being a leader in a congregation, he says, 'They should be the husband of one wife'. That doesn't condemn people with more than one wife, and implies that polygamy was present and not condemned in the law. As we seen from Jesus however, he told us what Gods will was on the matter, and that was for one man and one woman in lifelong union. 'One flesh' as he called it. When we then consider Christs words about 'Do unto others...' etc, I do think it becomes clear that something like slavery is not compatible with Christianity, and its something Christians sought to outlaw based on Christian teaching. Paul never said, 'You should keep slaves', but rather Paul told slaves and masters of the time, their responsibilities as followers of Christ. No such thing could be said of the both implicit, AND explicit condemnation of sexual sin.
Also, while we live in a world so fixed on the self, and what your rights are; God, IMO, is much more fixed on us being humble and loving in light of Christ, and Gods ways, and in light of The Kingdom to come:1 Corinthians 7 wrote:17 Only let each person lead the life[c] that the Lord has assigned to him, and to which God has called him. This is my rule in all the churches. 18 Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. 19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. 20 Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. 21 Were you a bondservant[d] when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) 22 For he who was called in the Lord as a bondservant is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a bondservant of Christ. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become bondservants[e] of men. 24 So, brothers,[f] in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.Ephesians 5 wrote:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.
25 Husbands, love I]To get an idea of the concept of Love Paul refers to, please see the Corinthians verses below this Ephesians quote[/I your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.[a] 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.1 Corinthians 13 wrote:Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.0 -
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