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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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    #4172
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    philologos wrote: »
    Your question seems to be based on the position that God cannot be sovereign over all Creation whilst humans are freely willed?

    Why do you think that's true?

    Not really philologos ,I am probably coming at it from a more catholic background as in for example a person finds themselves in a position as a result of the exercise of their own free will and not liking the consequences, either they or someone else or both prays for a change or removal of those consequences.


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    #4173
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    marienbad wrote: »
    But God is'nt anyone else.

    No, God isn't anyone else. Who said otherwise, I wonder? You asked a seemingly string question and you got a straight answer.

    If you pray a petitionary prayer then it is because you want God to do something or act in a certain way. The clue is in the name. Now is this a genuine question or is there some other reasoning at play?


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    #4174
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    No, God isn't anyone else. Who said otherwise, I wonder? You asked a seemingly string question and you got a straight answer.

    If you pray a petitionary prayer then it is because you want God to do something or act in a certain way. The clue is in the name. Now is this a genuine question or is there some other reasoning at play?

    Your post implied it Fanny when you said ''no more than anyone else'', so no I did'nt get a straight answer .


    What difference does it make if it is a genuine question or not , the answer will be the same surely either way ? In any case I hav'nt asked an un-genuine question yet .

    So is a petitionary prayer a call to interfere with free will or the consequences of free will ?


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    #4175
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    marienbad wrote: »
    So is a petitionary prayer a call to interfere with free will or the consequences of free will ?

    Do you mean one only has a choice between two types of interference
    1 with free will
    or
    2. with the consequences of free will

    Isnt that a false dichotomy on the gro_unds of an excluded middle i.e. ther could be another choice -3?

    Or do you mean that

    A petitionary prayer is a call to interfere with free will
    or
    B. petitionary prayer is the consequences of free will

    Again that is a false dichotomy on the grounds of nonexclusivity i.e. it could be both A and B?


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    #4176
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    By free will and the consequences of free will I mean the actions that have come about because of the exercise of free will , for example a person chooses to take heroin and as a consequence becomes an addict and prays for the removal of that addiction .


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    #4177
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    ISAW wrote: »
    but he didn't!

    argument about what he didn't say has nothing to do with making a statement about rationality and backing it up by what he did say.



    the ideas that "god is good" and "god is reasonable" are two different things.



    no it does not seem reasonable at all.



    such a "watchmaker god" isnt the christian concept of god.



    See my last comment.



    Again you confalte two different issues

    1. that god is good
    2. that god is a hands off non interference god

    the christian god is 1 but not 2



    Again all dealt with in the "problem of evil" arguments earlier.



    In your opinion.
    Like the 3gos ordered rpe" argument Im sure others will take you up on this.
    Please dont resort to trying to use the skeptics bible in an attempt to prove a point.
    some fairly well versed biblical scholars will dismantle your theology 101 thesis if you do.


    Restating the above argument
    see my above comments.


    Again restating the "watchmaker god" argument.

    You are only fooling yourself.

    God does not even know you exist. This has already been discussed. You are unknown to the God you worship. That is kind of sad.


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    #4178
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    marienbad wrote: »
    Seeing as we seem to have ground to a halt on the historicity of Jesus and the bible can I ask another question ?

    Is the idea of prayer a call for God to interfere with free will ?

    I think it is more accurate to say that prayer is about getting God to prefer the will of one over another.


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    #4179
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    philologos wrote: »
    Your question seems to be based on the position that God cannot be sovereign over all Creation whilst humans are freely willed?

    Why do you think that's true?

    Because a whip can soon change your will. And the prospect of hell is like a whip.

    Or are you one of those people who wouldn't deny Jesus thrice before the cock crows? Are you so sure of what you say you believe that you would die defending it? I don't think so. Not one of you would but I would. I am cock sure that if you were threatened by real and present danger then you would abandon your God like a bad habit

    Let me ask you this: If you had a dream where God told you to kill your child, as in the case of Abraham, would you kill your child?

    Then you don't have free will do you? You simply do as your boss tells you.

    Religion is and always has been about subverting free-will.


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    #4180
    mylastparadigm
    Registered Users Posts: 164 ✭✭mylastparadigm


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    I think it is more accurate to say that prayer is about getting God to prefer the will of one over another.

    logically, because of free will, god cannot grant wishes. so prayers as requests dont really make sense.
    i think there is something there about grace being the benefit of prayer but im a little simple to understand that.


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    #4181
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    ISAW wrote: »
    Do you mean one only has a choice between two types of interference
    1 with free will
    or
    2. with the consequences of free will

    Isnt that a false dichotomy on the gro_unds of an excluded middle i.e. ther could be another choice -3?

    Or do you mean that

    A petitionary prayer is a call to interfere with free will
    or
    B. petitionary prayer is the consequences of free will

    Again that is a false dichotomy on the grounds of nonexclusivity i.e. it could be both A and B?

    Once again, you completely miss (evade) the point.

    People pray in order to subvert the free will of others. If God answers prayers then free will is rendered irrelevant.


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    #4182
    Wh1stler
    Closed Accounts Posts: 276 ✭✭Wh1stler


    And if He doesn't answer prayers, God is irrelevant.

    Sticky, huh?


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    #4183
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Once again, you completely miss (evade) the point.

    People pray in order to subvert the free will of others. If God answers prayers then free will is rendered irrelevant.

    I think you are the one missing the point. If I ask someone for something then they are free to give it to me or not - either way it does not violate anyone's free will.

    For example, I once needed money at 9am to pay a bill. I prayed for God to provide for my need. A friend, who knew nothing about that need, turned up at my house at midnight and explained that earlier in the evening, when they were praying, they felt God telling them they had to give me a sum of money. They handed me an envelope, and in that envelope was the exact sum I needed to pay my bill.

    No-one's free will was violated here. My friend was perfectly free to choose to act upon that feeling or to ignore it.


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    #4184
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    And if He doesn't answer prayers, God is irrelevant.

    Sticky, huh?

    I would call your reasoning defective rather than sticky, huh?


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    #4185
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    marienbad wrote: »
    By free will and the consequences of free will I mean the actions that have come about because of the exercise of free will , for example a person chooses to take heroin and as a consequence becomes an addict and prays for the removal of that addiction .

    That surely isn't that great an example, because the addict by their free will - is asking for intervention by God.


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    #4186
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    ISAW: my point isn't that Christianity is irrational but it isn't based on Greek philosophy. Rather John explains Christianity to a Greek world much in the missionary I spoke to does in Thailand.


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    #4187
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    philologos wrote: »
    That surely isn't that great an example, because the addict by their free will - is asking for intervention by God.

    Indeed he/she is philologos ( in a much as a addict still has free will , but that is another question alltogether) , but to intercede in that person's addiction is an interference of with the consequences of free will, is it not ?

    And the exercise of free will and consequence of free will are part of the same cycle surely ?

    .


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    #4188
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    philologos wrote: »
    ISAW: my point isn't that Christianity is irrational but it isn't based on Greek philosophy. Rather John explains Christianity to a Greek world much in the missionary I spoke to does in Thailand.

    and my point is that Thai science or Indian science or African science is still Greek science.
    the rational part of science and Christian Theology does trace to Greek philosophy.


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    #4189
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    You are only fooling yourself.

    God does not even know you exist. This has already been discussed. You are unknown to the God you worship. That is kind of sad.

    Again this "callous god" would not be a christian interpretation
    And dont bring MY beliefs into this. We are not discussing them.


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    #4190
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Wh1stler wrote: »
    Because a whip can soon change your will. And the prospect of hell is like a whip.

    Let me ask you this: If you had a dream where God told you to kill your child, as in the case of Abraham, would you kill your child?

    Then you don't have free will do you? You simply do as your boss tells you.

    Religion is and always has been about subverting free-will.

    Again this was dealt with under the deHellinisartion discussion of Benedict at Regensberg and discussed earlier.


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    #4191
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    ISAW wrote: »
    and my point is that Thai science or Indian science or African science is still Greek science.
    the rational part of science and Christian Theology does trace to Greek philosophy.

    Not wishing to interfere in a family discussion but I would have thought it is not Greek science but just science- no ?

    What about the egyptians arabs chinese etc ?


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    #4192
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    ISAW wrote: »
    Again this "callous god" would not be a christian interpretation
    And dont bring MY beliefs into this. We are not discussing them.

    You're wasting your breath responding, as Wh1stler has used his free will to close his boards.ie account.


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    #4193
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    marienbad wrote: »
    Indeed he/she is philologos ( in a much as a addict still has free will , but that is another question alltogether) , but to intercede in that person's addiction is an interference of with the consequences of free will, is it not ?

    Not at all. How can giving someone what they ask for possibly be construed as an interference with their free will?

    "I'm hungry. Please give me something to eat."

    "Ok, here's a sandwich."

    "Waaah! You interfered with my free will by giving me a sandwich!"


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    #4194
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    PDN wrote: »
    Not at all. How can giving someone what they ask for possibly be construed as an interference with their free will?

    "I'm hungry. Please give me something to eat."

    "Ok, here's a sandwich."

    "Waaah! You interfered with my free will by giving me a sandwich!"


    As people we interfere with free will all the time. But God is'nt someone


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    #4195
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    marienbad wrote: »
    As people we interfere with free will all the time. But God is'nt someone

    That isn't an answer, it's a cop out. And, since you're on the Christianity Forum, you might take a note that God is someone - otherwise you're arguing about some non-Christian concept of God and you're in the wrong forum.

    How exactly does granting someone's request interfere with their free will? (Other than saying, "Well it just does because it's God")


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    #4196
    Northclare
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭Northclare


    It seems to me that some people interpret freewill and God's will differently.

    Free will can be like self will, such as a person acting out on their selfish desires or addictions.

    But when a person goes through a lot of self discovery and let's go of all the negatively guilt and loss in their lives then they can come to a situation in their life where they accept their defects of character and shortcomings.

    Thats like a clean out of all the **** in their lives that they wish to detach from then they trust in God or the universe to guide their thoughts and actions etc.

    Sorry about lack of quotation marks etc


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    #4197
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    PDN wrote: »
    That isn't an answer, it's a cop out. And, since you're on the Christianity Forum, you might take a note that God is someone - otherwise you're arguing about some non-Christian concept of God and you're in the wrong forum.

    How exactly does granting someone's request interfere with their free will? (Other than saying, "Well it just does because it's God")

    Come on PDN - are you seriously saying the God is a person like everyone else ?

    It is not someone granting a request - like a bank giving a loan- Is it a divine interference with the consequence of a choice arrived at through the exercise of free will ?

    At least that is the question I am asking.


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    #4198
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    marienbad wrote: »
    Not wishing to interfere in a family discussion but I would have thought it is not Greek science but just science- no ?

    What about the egyptians arabs chinese etc ?
    They are not science i would argue.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66629219

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72865981&postcount=24508

    http://books.google.ie/books?id=67Mr-fhfZmQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22the+unnatural+nature+of+science%22&hl=en&ei=dUngTKndIIqecJfN3JcM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
    see Chapter 3

    i would argue chalmers has a similar position

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/12834586/Chalmers-AF-1999-What-is-This-Thing-Called-Science-3e-0872204537


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    #4199
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    marienbad wrote: »
    Come on PDN - are you seriously saying the God is a person like everyone else ?

    I d venture to suggest PDN would say "three persons"
    It is not someone granting a request - like a bank giving a loan- Is it a divine interference with the consequence of a choice arrived at through the exercise of free will ?

    At least that is the question I am asking.

    i dont understand that question. could you rephrase or explain it?


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    #4200
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    My original question was -'' Is the idea of prayer a call for God to interfere with free will '' and I give the example of the person choosing to take drugs and thus as a consequence of their free will becoming an addict.

    -Is prayer by a 3rd party to influence the decision to take drugs in the first place

    -or the decision having been made and the inevitable addiction having happened,that to pray for the removal of that addiction by the person themselves or a 3rd party

    is calling for overriding the exercise of free will, as the choice and the consequence are part of the same act.


    Thats as clear as I can make it really .


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    #4201
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    marienbad wrote: »
    Come on PDN - are you seriously saying the God is a person like everyone else ?
    Nobody is a person 'like everyone else'. Everyone is different.

    The President of a country is not like anyone else, but if he grants a request for you that does not somehow invalidate your free will.

    You made the statement that somehow God answering a request is interference with free will. I've asked you to show some semblence of logic or reason to justify that extraordinary claim. So far you've not done so, but have simply advanced the irrelevant notion that God is somehow different.
    It is not someone granting a request - like a bank giving a loan- Is it a divine interference with the consequence of a choice arrived at through the exercise of free will ?

    At least that is the question I am asking.

    Answered prayer is someone granting a request. I'm waiting to hear some coherent reason why that contravenes free will.


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