Car/mechanic question

irol

This mightn't be the right place for this question..

Three times in the last month my car has failed to start. When I turned the key, the engine just clicked; it didn't even sound like it was going to start. I jump-started it each time and it worked perfectly for a while, before failing again.

Any ideas on what the problem might be?

R.O.R

irol wrote: »

This mightn't be the right place for this question..

Three times in the last month my car has failed to start. When I turned the key, the engine just clicked; it didn't even sound like it was going to start. I jump-started it each time and it worked perfectly for a while, before failing again.

Any ideas on what the problem might be?

I'm no mechanic, but my guess would be the battery............

Bruthal

Not a mechanic but....

It could be your own battery is gone, or connections from your battery onto the main leads(make sure the clamps are tight onto your battery), as jump starting bypasses this actual connection, or your alternator could be gone.

The clicking you hear is a relay(contactor) which actually is what closes to start the starter motor when you turn the key.

If you turn ignition on, and the headlights, and get someone to try starting the car, you look at the headlights, if they go very dim but not out then its likely your battery is too low, from either needing replacement, or an alternator problem.

If the connection is bad or loose at the main battery terminal clamps, when you try to start car, the lights will instantly go completely out.

I also seen starter motors stick, but if jump starting it is working then its probably not that, although i did have it happen to me a few years ago where my starter motor was sticking, but the second battery in parallel with my own battery when jump starting sometimes gave it enough to get it going.

cjt156

Yep, your battery is flat. It could be just old age, lots of short journeys failing to keep it charged, or (less likely) your alternator is dead. Either way a new battery will have you moving again short term.

mkdon05

Spark plugs maybe.

Owen

mkdon05 wrote: »

Spark plugs maybe.

It's not spark plugs.

robbie7730 wrote: »

The clicking you hear is a relay(contactor) which actually is what closes to start the starter motor when you turn the key.

The clicking you hear is the solenoid on the starter motor trying to engage, but can't because of lack of electricity. A relay's clicking is barely audible in the car.

robbie7730 wrote: »

I also seen starter motors stick, but if jump starting it is working then its probably not that, although i did have it happen to me a few years ago where my starter motor was sticking, but the second battery in parallel with my own battery when jump starting sometimes gave it enough to get it going.

That's not your starter motor sticking, that's just the solenoid not having enough power to push the gear out and then engage the motor.

OP, bring your car to a motor factors, and ask them to test the battery.

colm_mcm

mkdon05 wrote: »

Spark plugs maybe.

I think It's safe to say its not spark plugs

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The clicking you hear is the solenoid on the starter motor trying to engage, but can't because of lack of electricity. A relay's clicking is barely audible in the car.

And what is the solenoid doing? A solenoid is part of an electromagnetic switch. A solenoid itself is only a winding.

It is closing a set of contacts(hence contactor in brackets before) capabable of making and breaking the load to a 1kw+ starter motor, which at 12 volts will be up around 100 amps. So in effect it is actually a contactor, and a contactor is actually a large relay, believe it or not.

A low battery can easily close the contacts of the solenoid switch, which takes about 100-200 miliamps, and is clearly heard closing, where as it then cant turn the starter motor which takes 100 amps, and in fact takes far more just as its starting.

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

That's not your starter motor sticking, that's just the solenoid not having enough power to push the gear out and then engage the motor.

OP, bring your car to a motor factors, and ask them to test the battery.

Thats funny, because it was 6 years ago, when the car would not start, i tapped the starter motor with a hammer and sometimes it would start.

And then replaced it (starter motor). End of problem. Any other ideas what it was so?

A stuck starter motor that has a 100 amp full rating can demand up to 3 or 400 amps if held stopped, which hammered my battery. So a second one jump starting it sometimes got it going. Seems simple enough.

Owen

Oh god, I'll go back to bed. It's way too early on a Monday morning for this sort of crap.

Owen

Okay. I can't believe I'm getting into this, but I will.

The AA's website in the UK also agrees the clicking noise is the solenoid. So will any mechanic. The solenoid returns under a very strong spring. The battery energises the solenoid to push out the worm gear of the starter motor. If it doesn't have enough current to reach 100% of deflection and engage the gear, the strong spring pulls it back against itself and you hear the bang. The repeated bangs are attempts over and over again of the solenoid trying to engage.

There is no set of relay contacts anywhere in the car which when making and breaking an electrical circuit will make that sort of noise.

But I'm sure you're right, and the AA are wrong.

Bruthal

No you probably are right. But this means the car ignition switch directly switches the load to the starter motor so? And there is no electrical contact switching by the solenoid? Somehow i doubt the ignition switch is switching between 100 and 200 amps.

Owen

This video also shows the noise. If you watch at the end when he connects the battery to the starter motor/solenoid (With no other ancillary electrical devices at all) - you can hear the click once when the starter engages, and once when it stops. That's the solenoid at full deflection, and at zero deflection hitting it's own bump stops.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WQlATTWKJc

The solenoid in my Mother's extractor fan over her cooker I replaced last year made exactly the same noise.

Bruthal

What about this.

Down a little it says electric starter. It even mentions the solenoid is like a relay. I guess thats wrong.

But anyway, how does the ignition switch deliver 100 amps to a starter motor? The ignition switch certainly does not deliver this directly. Because the solenoid does not only engage the drive gear, it operated a set of contacts also. Or does it not? Just curious now.

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Okay. I can't believe I'm getting into this, but I will.

The AA's website in the UK also agrees the clicking noise is the solenoid. So will any mechanic.

I was not saying its not the solenoid, i was saying the solenoid is actually a type of relay. Now if it does not perform any sort of electrical switching to the starter motor, then i will say yes, i was incorrect. But i say it does perform the high current electrical switching to the starter motor, as well as engaging the pinion gear.

Its only a discussion, not a row. I will of course say mechanics etc will call it a solenoid. I was just calling at a relay as it does perform a relay function. Solenoid is the more accurate term for car people.

YbFocus

Without a shadow of a doubt you need a battery, if it was a starter problem then jumping it wouldn't change anything. Your solenoid clicking out due to battery not being able to turn her over :-)

cjt156

Any of you ladies wanna dance?

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

If you watch at the end when he connects the battery to the starter motor/solenoid (With no other ancillary electrical devices at all)

No ancillary services needed when the starter is on the bench, the solenoid coil just needs to be connected in parallel with the motor winding, and then jump leads are connected to battery in that video.

The copper bar contact can be seen where it closes which starts the starter motor.

The blue switch is the ignition switch, and can clearly be seen it does not switch the load of the starter, but closes the solenoid switch. Im not starting an arguement, just saying what is.

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

That's not your starter motor sticking, that's just the solenoid not having enough power to push the gear out and then engage the motor.

Here is another interesting one about that. I was stuck with the sticking starter motor mentioned above at intel while working with contractors there in 2005.

The tapping the starter motor with hammer was not working which it had sometimes but not every time. I could obviously of got lads to push start the car, but had been thinking of an experiment.

You know the way the starter pinion has an over-run clutch, to allow the engine to rev above the starter motor at starting, well i tried the following....

I got a couple of lads to gently push the car backward, but the car was actually in 4th i think, and let the clutch out at the same time engaging the ignition, to sort of kick the starter motor, and this actually did free it and i was able to start it. But i had to change the starter motor within a few days anyway as it just would not move even with hammer taps.

Anan1

In fairness, I would have thought a solenoid was a type of relay too. It's always called a solenoid when it's on a starter though; in the context of cars a relay will be used for the likes of headlights. I think this makes robbie 50.1% right in this very important discussion.;)

Bruthal

Anan1 wrote: »

In fairness, I would have thought a solenoid was a type of relay too. It's always called a solenoid when it's on a starter though; in the context of cars a relay will be used for the likes of headlights. I think this makes robbie 50.1% right in this very important discussion.;)

Only 50%:D, i didnt think the solenoid was a relay, it is a relay on a starter motor, as well as an actuator. It has a high current switch in it, operated by the low current ignition switch, as well as engaging the pinion gear, so it is in fact, a relay.

In the electrical field a relay would technically be a switch that is a secondary switching mechanism, so it relays the first switching mechanism(ignition switch in this case), normally as a means of isolation, or in the subject here, to relay the ignition switch which is a low current small switch, to enable the switching of a very high current starting motor.

So a 5 amp ignition switch can operate a 100 amp, or 200 amp for a tdi starter, or up to 1000 amps for large trucks etc via the solenoid relay contacts. The same method is used in a huge range of motor starting scenarios in every situation motors are used.

A relay is an electrically operated switch, and the relay has a solenoid coil. A solenoid is simply a wire winding, nothing more, and has many uses, solenoid valve, solenoid switch, solenoid actuator etc. They call that part a solenoid in a car, but a solenoid is just one part of the device, it has a relay contact, and a pinion gear engaging mechanism. So the solenoid in a car is actually both a solenoid switch and actuator in this application.

So we think of relays as the little electrically operated switches in the car which operate wipers, indicators, cooling fan etc, but in reality a relay can be any electrically operated switch, larger ones we call contactors. But they are simply bigger relays, and they also make a far bigger clatter on closing than the small relays many familiar with car relays would think of as relays.

An interesting use of car relays here before xmas in a project.

How do people think the actual load of the starting motor was switched? Directly with the ignition switch?

Bruthal

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The clicking you hear is the solenoid on the starter motor trying to engage, but can't because of lack of electricity. A relay's clicking is barely audible in the car.


That's not your starter motor sticking, that's just the solenoid not having enough power to push the gear out and then engage the motor.

I see a few thanks on this quote, but the starter motor was in fact proven to be seized, so thats that out of the way, and there was nothing wrong with the battery. It was 6 years ago.


Now, you say there are no ancillary electrical devices used for the starter motor, ok so, would you or one of the mechanics i assume that thanked the above post be willing to tell me what actually does switch the starter motor in when the ignition key is turned?

Its always a good day to learn something new and im more than willing to.

You said your starter motor was sticking but that two batteries in parallel gave it enough to start. That makes no sense unless the first battery wasn't charged sufficiently to provide enough current.

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

You said your starter motor was sticking but that two batteries in parallel gave it enough to start. That makes no sense unless the first battery wasn't charged sufficiently to provide enough current.

Ok, and i will try my best to explain the actual facts. And you tell me if its remotely possible, or absolutely impossible.

Firstly, the starter was absolutely sticking, no doubt about that. As it was removed after a few weeks, and proven to be stuck.

Now, when i tried to start the car, it was starting sometimes, and sticking sometimes. And a few taps of a hammer often freed it, but not every time.

Now as it sticks, the car battery will be very severely loaded, and it probably was not as good as new anyway, but still easily capable of starting if the motor was not sticking, as a 100 amp starting motor can draw 2 or 3 times this when held stopped, and we noticed the battery leads getting very hot on several occasions.

Add in the second battery, and the now stuck starter motor will have a higher amp capacity to draw from, and again, sometimes started, but it sometimes still did not, and the insulation began to melt on my battery leads also in this scenario.

Another way to look at it would be try starting your car with a 12v alarm battery, it wont have the capacity to turn it over, but add several in parallel and eventually there will be enough capacity to turn it.

It may not make sense, but as im from an electrical backround, it makes sense to me. Electrical properties dont change just because they are in a car.

A car battery capabable of delivering 200 amps, in parallel with another capable of delivering 200 amps, will still be a 12 volt battery, but now capabable of delivering 400 amps. Thats a fact. So a stuck starter motor could if its just sticking enough to oveload the car battery, can possibly be given an extra kick by 2 batteries in parralel.

As it happens, i replaced the starter motor, and the same car battery worked away for another few months with no problem.

PARKHEAD67

irol wrote: »

This mightn't be the right place for this question..

Three times in the last month my car has failed to start. When I turned the key, the engine just clicked; it didn't even sound like it was going to start. I jump-started it each time and it worked perfectly for a while, before failing again.

Any ideas on what the problem might be?

Fiat?:D

Bruthal

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Fiat?:D

My one with the sticking starter was a brava funny enough.

PARKHEAD67

robbie7730 wrote: »

My one with the sticking starter was a brava funny enough.

Your a brave man to purchase a Fiat.;).The reputation they have is for a very valid reason,

Bruthal

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Your a brave man to purchase a Fiat.;).The reputation they have is for a very valid reason,

You could be right, although that one got to 176k miles, so it was not too bad. I wouldnt spend money on any car now, 1k at the most.

PARKHEAD67

robbie7730 wrote: »

You could be right, although that one got to 176k miles, so it was not too bad. I wouldnt spend money on any car now, 1k at the most.

Jayzus that must be a world record for a Fiat:eek:

Bruthal

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Jayzus that must be a world record for a Fiat:eek:

I know, i remember it well, the differential went in it at the end and that was the end of it. I had it from 16k miles.

Anan1

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Fiat?:D

This may be news to you, but FIAT manufacture neither batteries nor starter motors.

Bruthal

Anan1 wrote: »

This may be news to you, but FIAT manufacture neither batteries nor starter motors.

I actually had 2 brava`s in a row and found both quite good in fact. The starter motor problem was something that can happen any car.

PARKHEAD67

Anan1 wrote: »

This may be news to you, but FIAT manufacture neither batteries nor starter motors.

But they do manufacture cars that regularly break down.This may be news to you:)

Anan1

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

But they do manufacture cars that regularly break down.This may be news to you:)

You'd probably get a good laugh if you said that to your mates down the pub - why expose yourself to needless ridicule here?

Bruthal

Anan1 wrote: »

why expose yourself to needless ridicule here?

Because i truely believe the starter solenoid does indeed have a motor starting relay in it:D

PARKHEAD67

Anan1 wrote: »

You'd probably get a good laugh if you said that to your mates down the pub - why expose yourself to needless ridicule here?

Fiat make terrible cars.Thats my opinion.Ridicule me for this if you want.A workmate of mine had his gearstick fall off in a punto.The mechanic who services my car said to avoid Fiat like the plague.I presume he knows what hes talking about.

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

You said your starter motor was sticking but that two batteries in parallel gave it enough to start. That makes no sense unless the first battery wasn't charged sufficiently to provide enough current.

I will say if i had a brand new battery in my car, it would of provided more starting current capacity to the starter motor. And a stuck starter will of course only take a certain amount of current, not an infinite amount, but this will still be several times its normal rated full load current.

But when you parallel 2 batteries, you also increase their ability to maintain a higher voltage under load. The 12 to 13v will go down on the battery the higher the load, and so 2 in parallel will maintain the output voltage level better, and so have more chance to force the stuck starter to free itself. Dont forget, its a stuck starter motor here, not a normal running one. So the higher the amp capacity (obviously up to a certain amount which after a certain level of capacity would then make no difference when its well above the stuck starter amps draw), the more chance of freeing the starter, but again, it did not always free it even with the jump leads on.

I guess it still makes no sense?

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

.............
Add in the second battery, and the now stuck starter motor will have a higher amp capacity to draw from, and again, sometimes started, but it sometimes still did not, and the insulation began to melt on my battery leads also in this scenario. .........................
It may not make sense, but as im from an electrical backround, it makes sense to me. Electrical properties dont change just because they are in a car.

......................

So sometimes the car started with one battery and sometimes it started with two, sometimes it wouldn't start with two. On removal the starter was found to be w*nked. But because you are from an electrical background it makes sense why the car sometimes started with one battery, sometimes with two and sometimes not at all. OK.

Anan1

robbie7730 wrote: »

Because i truely believe the starter solenoid does indeed have a motor starting relay in it:D

FWIW, I think you're right.;)

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Fiat make terrible cars.Thats my opinion.Ridicule me for this if you want.A workmate of mine had his gearstick fall off in a punto.The mechanic who services my car said to avoid Fiat like the plague.I presume he knows what hes talking about.

That's fair enough, and I respect your right to your opinion. Would you, for your part, concede that it's not a very well-informed opinion? It was obvious from the first post that the battery is the most likely culprit, so your FIAT remark really didn't make much sense. Maybe wait until someone's Punto HG goes and try saying it then?

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

So sometimes the car started with one battery and sometimes it started with two, sometimes it wouldn't start with two. On removal the starter was found to be w*nked. But because you are from an electrical background it makes sense why the car sometimes started with one battery, sometimes with two and sometimes not at all. OK.

Well done on the twisting words. I said i understand why a higher capacity battery will be more likely to have more available amps to supply to a stuck motor. I dont remember mentioning understanding why the motor was intermitently sticking.

I guess starter motors cant intermitently stick? Not possible?

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

Well done on the twisting words. I said i understand why a higher capacity battery will be more likely to have more available amps to supply to a stuck motor. I dont remember mentioning understanding why the motor was intermitently sticking.

I guess starter motors cant intermitently stick? Not possible?

I didn't twist any words. My point was as you say, it was sticking intermittently, once the first battery was adequate the 2nd was providing no help.


I can picture you standing there with your two batteries in parallel and when it starts you thinking you're Albert Einstein, a week later when it didn't what changed??

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

I didn't twist any words. My point was as you say, it was sticking intermittently, once the first battery was adequate the 2nd was providing no help.

So is it true 2 batteries under heavy load will maintain a better voltage, yes, no, or you dont know?

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

I didn't twist any words. My point was as you say, it was sticking intermittently, once the first battery was adequate the 2nd was providing no help.


I can picture you standing there with your two batteries in parallel and when it starts you thinking you're Albert Einstein, a week later when it didn't what changed??

I will tell you what changed a week later, the starter.

As for the albert einsten rubbish, again, will 2 batteries in parallel, with 200 amps load, maintain a better voltage than 1 on its own, yes or no? Very simple question for you there.

Im actually surprised at your einstein reference as if your rubbishing the idea, like its not possible. I thought it simple, a 1kw motor stuck, likely taking over 200 amps from my battery, and you can not see how 2 in parallel will have a better high current capacity. And you mention einstein.

Do you think your albert einstein when something you do works? No wonder we treasure our mechanics here

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

I can picture you standing there with your two batteries in parallel and when it starts you thinking you're Albert Einstein, a week later when it didn't what changed??

Another thing i can say is, the 45 AH battery in that car had a 300 amp capacity. That would be when brand new. They wont have that when they are a year or more old.

A 1kw 12 v starter motor takes close enough to 100 amps. A motor can actually take around 6 times its full load current at the instant of starting, or the same if its held stopped.

From this maybe you can see how its possible for 2 paralled 300 amp batteries connected in parallel, which can now deliver 600 amps, although i was using jump leads which wont deliver a full 300 amps through them clips, not standing there with 2 batteries like you suggested.

And also, from trying to start the starter when its stuck, the battery will rapidly lose charge, and with that alone, 2 in parallel may be a help.

You point blank say its not possible, that fair enough, but keep the einstein stuff for yourself, in case you do finally understand it might just be remotely possible. Its ironinc you use that name, when you cant even remotely see the even slight possibility that 2 batteries have a much better current delivery, than 1 alone. I get the feeling you are just laughing about it and dismissing it, again, fair enough, no doubt you know everything about it, and as such can dismiss it without a thought.

PARKHEAD67

Anan1 wrote: »

FWIW, I think you're right.;)That's fair enough, and I respect your right to your opinion. Would you, for your part, concede that it's not a very well-informed opinion? It was obvious from the first post that the battery is the most likely culprit, so your FIAT remark really didn't make much sense. Maybe wait until someone's Punto HG goes and try saying it then?

Ill put it like this-I certainly wouldnt buy a Fiat.Would you?

CSU

I have used this garage in Dublin for info in the past...

http://auto-mechanic-dublin.com

worth a shot

Anan1

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

Ill put it like this-I certainly wouldnt buy a Fiat.Would you?

We had a Tipo in the family from new, it was reliable for the 160k+ miles we had it. Same with the Alfa 156 that followed it, although that was sold at only 135k miles. And that was back in the supposedly bad old days. Like I said, your opinion on FIAT is pub talk - standard, Irish, heard-it-through-the-grapevine waffle.

robbie7730

robbie7730 wrote: »

but it sometimes still did not, and the insulation began to melt on my battery leads also in this scenario............

robbie7730 wrote: »

I will tell you what changed a week later, the starter.

As for the albert einsten rubbish, again, will 2 batteries in parallel, with 200 amps load, maintain a better voltage than 1 on its own, yes or no? Very simple question for you there......................

robbie7730 wrote: »

Another thing i can say is, ................ bla bla electrical background bla bla ohms law bla bla

When it started with the two batteries in parallel are you sure it was due to the extra battery or was it the intermittent fault in the starter you already observed playing ball? Yes or No, are you sure

Bruthal

Anan1 wrote: »

We had a Tipo in the family from new, it was reliable for the 160k+ miles we had it. Same with the Alfa 156 that followed it, although that was sold at only 135k miles. And that was back in the supposedly bad old days. Like I said, your opinion on FIAT is pub talk - standard, Irish, heard-it-through-the-grapevine waffle.

The biggest killer of cars was years ago when they rotted away with rust. Sinse they galvanized them etc, that has ended that, and these days i think they are all close enough to the same reliability. I actually had a 127, an uno, and 2 brava`s amongst others, and found them all grand. I dont see any problems myself, pub jokes is right.

Bruthal

RoverJames wrote: »

When it started with the two batteries in parallel are you sure it was due to the extra battery or was it the intermittent fault in the starter you already observed? Yes or No, are you sure

Yes i think thats it.

Just to answer the question you asked about why was the problem intermittent and what was wrong with the starter (which you have now edited out), I'd hazard a guess it was corrosion on the copper contacts. Many cars are fitted with a nippon denso starter that has an intergrated solenoid body, on these the copper contacts are quite prone to corrosion, rebuild kits comprising of replacement copper contacts and a new plunger are widely available and a common fix, a decent auto spark charges €70/€80 to repair a starter with this kit.

You just did a monster edit their dude, pity I didn't quote it, ah well. At least I read all three versions before you edited it, nice.