differences in a Catholic mass in Ireland - usual, or it depends?

Tomas2007

Hello,

I would like to ask someone to shed some light into the following:

I'm in Ireland for a temporary contract. so far I've seen four masses in three different churches in Cork, and I'm a bit surprised by some differences compared to Catholic masses in my country (I'm from the Czech Republic). Assumably customs can differ between national churches to some extent, but still I would like to know if what I've seen is this way for ages, or it differs city to city (or parish to parish).

1) No altar boys? Our country is one of the most atheistic in the world, but still in our village with 1,500 inhabitants and some 40 churchgoers there usually is at least one person to assist the priest.

2) No wishing of peace among people (hand-shaking before communion) - not sure if I name it exactly.

3) Communion typically served into hands, not into mouth (again sorry if I use incorrect terms). When I first saw that in the Cork Cathedral, I was a bit nervous if the other way would actually be allowed. I was aware that this would be common in catholically "advanced/progressive" countries like Germany, France or the Netherlands, but I thought Ireland is still one of the most traditional Catholic countries with less modern liturgical elements.

There might be some more but this was maybe most surprising. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't want to say this or that is wrong or right, just trying to find out the grounds or reasons for these, or if it actually has been the same in Ireland for decades or more, and someone from Ireland would be on the other hand surprised seeing altar boys in another country.

Thanks for any insights.

Tomas

BostonB

Its not done the same everywhere in Ireland. It can be very different from one parish to the next, in my experience.

Onesimus

Same everywhere. There is a mass distortion of the Liturgy here in Ireland. I'm guessing also that in the Czech rep they still using the Golden patins ( as directed by Vatican II ) to hold under the chin of the communicant when receiving?

They no longer do that here. But I did attend a polish mass in which they did this. The Church here is on its knees and needs your prayers. So pray for us whilst your here.

Onesimus

baalthor

I thought the 'sign of peace' was a post Vatican II introduction?

Asry

I know that in St Sylvester's, my church, there aren't altarboys, but in the church beside my nana's house that I go to when I'm staying there, St Lawrence's, there are. To be honest, I was glad to see their return.

You *can* still get your communion into your mouth, I know. In a carmelite convent off Grafton St, people take communion standing around the altar rail and the priest moves along the line. It's nice and old-fashioned.

We do the sign of peace in St Sylvster's. Emmmm. Not in St Augustine's, the church opposite my apartment in Galway, though? But there was a flu scare or something so maybe that's why.

Tomas2007

OK I see...

Well I managed to locate one Polish service near where I live in Cork and it seems it's closer to what I'm used to:

http://www.churchservices.tv/live/Augustinians
- there was an evening mass broadcasted now here (or available as a recording later) and here I actually saw the first altar boy in Ireland...

Or then I could perhaps give a try the Latin Mass at St. Peter and Paul, assuming they are providing some leaflets for orientation (I don't understand Polish much neither, but I can go thru the readings / thoughts in Czech at home anyway).

Needless to say I actually had quite high expectations when coming to a country where there reportedly is 85 % Catholics. But what I see is a bit sad (well, at least for me). At least I may earn to appreciate more what we have at home.

And yes, they usually use the patins in our country (although receiving into hands is a normal option anyway).

PS To Asry - I received the Communion into mouth every time, but it may raise somewhat a "black sheep" feeling or make one rather concerned about the situation than to dwelve more in spiritual thoughts.

tenchi-fan

1. Most Irish churches have altar boys and girls. There's really no excuse for a church not to have any and in my parish back home there is always at least one altar server, although the seat on the altar accommodates 3 (or 4 if they're small!) The mass I was at this morning had about 10 (mainly girls), but I think some of them were making their confirmation soon hence the big turnout.
2. A lot of Irish priests did away with this around the time of foot and mouth.. once again there is no good reason for this. I'm in Canada and the priest usually says "let us offer each other any sign of peace", most people shake hands but some just turn to the person next to them and make a peace sign with their hands or say "peace be with you" without shaking hands.
3. Before the 70s it was not permitted for a priest to hand someone communion (in their hand), it had to be given on the tongue. It is up to the Bishop to allow receiving communion in the hand but I think it is commonplace in ireland. Priests may not refuse to administer holy communion on the tongue and many older people still prefer this method.

As for the Paten, it's a nice idea but it's a bit redundant. It was originally placed under a person's chin when they were accepting communion in case it fell. It was continue to be used when handing the person communion, but the fact is if someone is going to fumble the communion it will possibly get flicked or roll (thanks to the shape of it) and just embarrass the altar server.

If you are unhappy with the priest not bothering to find altar servers, or allowing parishioners to give each other the sign of peace maybe you should bring it up with him. As for the communion on the tongue, it's your choice and the priest (and anyone else giving out communion) will be aware of this.

Donatello

Tomas2007 wrote: »

1) No altar boys?

2) No wishing of peace among people (hand-shaking before communion) - not sure if I name it exactly.

3) Communion typically served into hands, not into mouth

Sadly, the altar boys tend to desert when the girls come in. It's just the way with boys. They need encouragement and they need an all-boys environment which, in the company of a priest, helps foster vocations. Girls really should have something of their own. There's a discussion about this on the comments section of Fr. Z's blog.

The sign of peace handshake is optional in the New Mass. I find it a distraction and a fairly meaningless gesture.

No priest can refuse you Holy Communion on the tongue, even in bird flu season. There was a letter about this from the Vatican to confirm this. You are to be praised for receiving in the tongue. Many people do, but most receive in the hand. The tongue is the norm, whilst the hand is allowed by an indult.

tenchi-fan wrote: »

2. A lot of Irish priests did away with this around the time of foot and mouth.. once again there is no good reason for this.

As for the Paten, it's a nice idea but it's a bit redundant. It was originally placed under a person's chin when they were accepting communion in case it fell. It was continue to be used when handing the person communion, but the fact is if someone is going to fumble the communion it will possibly get flicked or roll (thanks to the shape of it) and just embarrass the altar server.

That's hilarious.

Regarding the paten:

[93.] The Communion-plate for the Communion of the faithful should be retained, so as to avoid the danger of the sacred host or some fragment of it falling.[180]

-- Redemptionis Sacramentum, On certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Most Holy Eucharist

tenchi-fan

Donatello wrote: »

That's hilarious.

Naturally I could be talking nonsense

This was one of the times priests asked people not to give the sign of peace, but come to think of it, guidelines were probably issued which curbed their use of it... I just remembered how priests used to come down from the altar and shake the hands of half the people until they were instructed not to do this anymore.

Donatello wrote: »

Regarding the paten:

Well there ya go. I wonder why it's not used any more.

Donatello

tenchi-fan wrote: »

Naturally I could be talking nonsense

This was one of the times priests asked people not to give the sign of peace, but come to think of it, guidelines were probably issued which curbed their use of it... I just remembered how priests used to come down from the altar and shake the hands of half the people until they were instructed not to do this anymore.

Well there ya go. I wonder why it's not used any more.

I just thought it was funny because I'm pretty sure it was suspended due to bird/swine ful and not foot and mouth.

I think Communion in the hand and the abuse of Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion damage Catholic faith in the Real Presence. I suppose the paten then comes to look like an unnecessary, embarrassing, and old fashioned accessory in support of something that is perhaps not so widely believed as it once was. I dunno but it seems to me that this may be the reason why it is not used in most places. Surveys show that many Catholics have lost faith in the Eucharist. I wonder if the changes had anything to do with it? (Actually, I don't wonder very much.;))

Tomas2007

tenchi-fan wrote: »

1. Most Irish churches have altar boys and girls. There's really no excuse for a church not to have any

I wished so! I was in the cathedral twice in a 100 000+ city here (for a Sunday mass), assuming this would be more "massive" compared to our village, and no altar boy (nor girl). If this is not happening even in a cathedral, where then (well now I know about the Polish parish here, but if anyone's some experience with "more usual" masses in Cork, I'll be happy to read about that). Sure I understand it's only a detail compared to the Eucharist, but still.

Donatello wrote:

The sign of peace handshake is optional in the New Mass.

OK then, one surprise solved.

tenchi-fan

Tomas2007 wrote: »

If this is not happening even in a cathedral, where then

To be honest, it's the priest's fault.

When I was an altar server a woman used to do a lot for the church.. she was involved with the church and the GAA and knew everyone's parents. She made sure every boy who made their communion served as an altar boy. She washed the gowns the altar servers wear... as well as washing the jerseys for all the local GAA players.

She did up the roster for altar boys, made sure there was always someone to do weddings and funerals and if anyone was sick she'd phone around until she found a replacement.

The fact the priest in your parish simply says "oh well, no altar servers" it's pretty sad.

Donatello

tenchi-fan wrote: »

To be honest, it's the priest's fault.

When I was an altar server a woman used to do a lot for the church.. she was involved with the church and the GAA and knew everyone's parents. She made sure every boy who made their communion served as an altar boy. She washed the gowns the altar servers wear... as well as washing the jerseys for all the local GAA players.

She did up the roster for altar boys, made sure there was always someone to do weddings and funerals and if anyone was sick she'd phone around until she found a replacement.

The fact the priest in your parish simply says "oh well, no altar servers" it's pretty sad.

Committed lay-folk should get together and do it. Say a father with sons or somesuch could set up a group for altar boys. Encourage all the local youth to serve the Mass. Priests can't do everything, and whilst it is fitting and such that the priest should oversee such a group, if he's not prepared to, then lay folk ought to take up the challenge.

Quo Vadis

The general standard of liturgy in Ireland has severely slipped.

When celebrating The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, we need more of this :









And less of this pure dribble :








It's time we all started demanding that our Priests restore a more respectful and sacred mass and liturgy, and get rid of anything that resembles the failed and disrespectful 1970/80's "Father Trendy" Happy Clappy Tambourine and Guitar hippy rubbish. Woodstock is over.

Donatello

Quo Vadis wrote: »

The general standard of liturgy in Ireland has severely slipped.

[...]

It's time we all started demanding that our Priests return to a more respectful mass and liturgy, and get rid of anything that resembles the failed and disrespectful 1960/70's "Father Trendy" Happy Clappy Tambourine and Guitar rubbish.

I agree. A culture of numb, ignorant lay-folk and a 'Father knows best' attitude prevailed and still prevails. We the layfolk need to let our pastors know what we expect and what we need, respectfully, of course, so that all our spiritual needs may be met and the mission of the Church advanced.

Who is going to save our Church?

Not our Bishops,
not our priests and religious.
It is up to the people.
You have the minds, the eyes,
the ears to save the Church.
Your mission is to see that
your priests act like priests,
your bishops like bishops,
and your religious act like religious.

~Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen

It is sad to say it, but with the invention of the internet, layfolk are now better catechised and of superior liturgical formation than most of the priests and even bishops. That's a guess, but I've reason to believe that layfolk who follow the orthodox Catholic blogs and read widely have more insight and understanding than the average parish priest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEdyIvvUJB0

lmaopml

Are those pictures of mass being said somewhere in Ireland Quo Vadis?

lol, I've never seen anything like that where I'm from, actually I travel to go to mass sometimes to avoid the poor sound in our local church and the tone of the priest along with the bad sound has the effect of making me doze off...all I can hear is 'mumble mumble mumble mumble mumble' mostly, and my hearing is perfect!

Coming up to communion and confirmation time, you may see some of the childrens art put up on the wall - it would have a 'theme' though and is pleasing and not 'astonishing' like some of those pics are...You might see representations of a dove for example, or pictures the children draw with a relevant quote from scripture below..

I bet those people didn't fall asleep. Ha...mad, but where do they celebrate mass like this?

Quo Vadis

More cringeworthy examples :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQPkYwIOCRM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeP_EdQc5so

Quo Vadis

lmaopml wrote: »

Are those pictures of mass being said somewhere in Ireland Quo Vadis?

No, I don't want to directly embarrass any Irish Parish, but I'm sure we've all seen similar elements at many Irish masses over the years. (Granted the examples posted are examples of the worst type , but I'm sure you get the idea)

Asry

I agree with a form of modernisation but I'm picky on how it happens, you know? I do agree also with the pictures that we need more of. They have a grave dignity.

lmaopml

That has to be in the states somewhere? Was one of the priests minding children or something beforehand and that's why he's wearing a red nose? and the scissors thing is very odd. There's a woman priest in there too I think...

lol.....the pink floyd soundtrack was the best bit. I love pink floyd.

Surely extreme examples like that are very isolated and not endemic?

Mass in Ireland is not quite as extreme or em, colourful and chaotic?

Donatello

lmaopml wrote: »

That has to be in the states somewhere? Was one of the priests minding children or something beforehand and that's why he's wearing a red nose? and the scissors thing is very odd. There's a woman priest in there too I think...

lol.....the pink floyd soundtrack was the best bit. I love pink floyd.

Surely extreme examples like that are very isolated and not endemic?

Mass in Ireland is not quite as extreme or em, colourful and chaotic?

It can be. At the Galway 'Solemn' Novena, they had Barney and a few other characters on the altar, and that was fairly recently.

In the Diocese of Orange, USA, there was the Halloween Mass (with a demon distributing Holy Communion), and the Barney blessing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8

The text referred to at the beginning of the video is from Cardinal Ratzinger's Spirit of the Liturgy:

Man himself cannot simply "make" worship. If God does not reveal himself, man is clutching at empty space. …But real liturgy implies that God responds and reveals how we can worship him.
...

In the Old Testament there is a series of very impressive testimonies to the truth that the liturgy is not a matter of "what you please." Nowhere is this more dramatically evident than in the narrative of the golden calf (strictly speaking, "bull calf"). The cult conducted by the high priest Aaron is not meant to serve any of the false gods of the heathen. The apostasy is more subtle. There is no obvious turning away from God to the false gods. Outwardly, the people remain completely attached to the same God. They want to glorify the God who lead Israel out of Egypt and believe that they may very properly represent his mysterious power in the image of a bull calf. Everything seems to be in order. Presumably even the ritual is in complete conformity to the rubrics. And yet it is a falling away from the worship of God to idolatry. This apostasy, which outwardly is scarcely perceptible, has two causes. First, there is a violation of the prohibition of images. The people cannot cope with the invisible, remote, and mysterious God. They want to bring him down into their own world, into what they can see and understand. Worship is no longer going up to God, but drawing God down into one's own world. He must be there when he is needed, and he must be the kind of God that is needed. Man is using God, and in reality, even if it is not outwardly discernible, he is placing himself above God.

This gives us a clue to the second point. The worship of the golden calf is a self-generated cult. When Moses stays away for too long, and God himself becomes inaccessible, the people just fetch him back. Worship becomes a feast that the community gives itself, a festival of self-affirmation. Instead of being worship of God, it becomes a circle closed in on itself: eating, drinking, and making merry. The dance around the golden calf is an image of this self-seeking worship. It is a kind of banal self-gratification.

The narrative of the golden calf is a warning about any kind of self-initiated and self-seeking worship. Ultimately, it is no longer concerned with God but with giving oneself a nice little alternative world, manufactured from one's own resources. Then liturgy really does become pointless, just fooling around. Or still worse it becomes an apostasy from the living God, an apostasy in sacral disguise. All that is left in the end is frustration, a feeling of emptiness. There is no experience of that liberation which always takes place when man encounters the living God.

This may seem like the wackier end of the spectrum, but across Ireland are abuses of every kind which can rival anything that happens in America.

Quo Vadis

lmaopml wrote: »

Was one of the priests minding children or something beforehand and that's why he's wearing a red nose?

Afraid not.

E.g. This so-called "Clown Mass," was a Mass being said for professional clowns who travel with the circus, and the priest thought it would be a novel idea (in the "sprit" of Vatican II no doubt) if everyone dressed up in clown costumes to celebrate the holy sacrifice of the mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ6KWt49wIA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPgQIceN2KM

The term "clown mass" is now used to describe any disrespectful mass full of liturgical abuses.

Perhaps not as extreme in Ireland as of yet thank God, but there are lots of examples of abuses of the liturgy that have crept into Ireland. RTÉ recently broadcast a Catholic Sunday mass in their studio by a Dublin parish where "liturigal dancing" was performed during the holy mass.

Donatello

In case people think this is not a big deal, it is. Let me explain why.

Recently, I had the opportunity to attend the Easter Vigil at a conservative parish somewhere in Ireland. For the first time in ages, I was able to connect with God at the New Mass. The priest simply offered the Mass as the Church requires, and the individual soul is able to encounter the living God, most especially in Holy Communion.

What liturgical abuse does is remove the focus from God and place it right on the priest and the congregation. What has the priest to offer me in terms of salvation, mystery, and healing? Of himself, nothing. What have I to offer anybody else? Nothing. Only an encounter with Christ in His Eucharistic mystery, His Real Presence, is to be found the worship in spirit and truth. Anything else is narcissistic naval gazing, which might feel good in the moment if dressed up as entertainment, but is ultimately meaningless and unsatisfying. That is why there is constant novelty and experimentation to find new forms of religious entertainment - clown Mass, Barney Mass, dancing Mass, Dorito Mass etc...

By removing the focus from God, we remove (or at least make it so difficult as to be virtually inaccessible) the possibility of the individual soul from encountering His God. This is really bad, because it impedes the soul's progress in holiness, and thus risks his eternal salvation.

When I attend Mass locally, I usually leave Mass upset, having gained virtually nothing from having attended. Even though Christ is there, the abuses disrupt the peace and focus of the soul, such that he is not properly disposed to receive grace, nor to converse with God. It's that serious.

Quo Vadis

How about

Cheesehead “ Mass” in which the performer of the Mess wears a mitre of cheddar cheese. Archbishop Timothy Dolan Milwaukee, Wisconsin September 26, 2002



or how about

Dorito "Mass" in which a "Dorito" corn chip was used. Religious Education Congress, Cathedral, Los Angeles, California October 21, 2003



Its not just America btw, you get versions of these abuses all over the world, including Ireland.

partyatmygaff

Donatello wrote: »

It can be. At the Galway 'Solemn' Novena, they had Barney and a few other characters on the altar, and that was fairly recently.

In the Diocese of Orange, USA, there was the Halloween Mass (with a demon distributing Holy Communion), and the Barney blessing:

That's nigh on unbelievable.

I'm not a Catholic but how is he still a Priest? How is his Bishop still a Bishop?

How can the RCC allow such blatant disrespect for the liturgy by a Priest of all people?

Donatello

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's nigh on unbelievable.

I'm not a Catholic but how is he still a Priest? How is his Bishop still a Bishop?

How can the RCC allow such blatant disrespect for the liturgy by a Priest of all people?

I think it is a difficult balancing act for the Pope. Pope John Paul II tolerated an awful lot of funny business. He also appointed some really bad bishops, some say as part of a strategy.

I think it is like a 'game', only a very serious one. Pope JPII risked a schism in the American Church. If he clamped down too hard, then the rebel bishops could have gone into schism. Imagine if the entire US Catholic Church went into schism! Bit of a disaster. We see with the Orthodox what happens when whole particular Churches go into schism - it is very difficult for them to come back, though certainly not impossible, and we hope and pray that in the future re-union may be possible. The Lord prayed that they may be one, but sadly we see that divisions and strife and heresies come and the body of Christ is torn. Once it is torn, it is very difficult to put the bits back together -- to call and to bring back to the one flock of Christ those who have strayed, under the one earthly shepherd, the Pope, for this was the will of Christ, Who said to Peter, ''Feed my sheep.''

I guess Pope JPII had to balance the dangers to individual souls who suffered the loss of faith and all the abuses under bad bishops and priests, versus the need to retain the corporate US Catholic Church so as to save more souls in the long run once normal service resumes, which is slowly happening, continuing under Pope BXVI, who, you may have heard, removed one bad bishop in Australia recently. I wouldn't like to be making those sorts of decisions - I'm glad I'm not the Pope!

Quo Vadis

Thankfully, there are still some beautiful examples of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

lmaopml

Quo Vadis, yeah I'd say that some people have some pretty hairy ideas about including everybody to extremes in the mass. Of course everybody should be included, but then there is the tail wagging the dog too. Maybe they tend to over do it a tad. I don't know if it's endemic though, it hasn't been my experience to be honest....Perhaps these clips go viral simply because of their extra exhuberant celebrants There's exhuberant and then there is...well wearing cheese.

However, I have to add that although I mentioned that I thought it was the 'States' that it by no means indicates that I believe it could 'only' happen there..The American Catholics are the salt of the earth to be honest, and they've managed to use the internet and media better than anybody else in the Catholic english speaking countries that I am aware of so far, which is refreshing and a great resource. The likes of EWTN both the channel and the online community are brilliant. So grateful they exist, and not a little due to the efforts of a tiny nun with a big heart and attitude

Quo Vadis

lmaopml wrote: »

Quo Vadis, yeah I'd say that some people have some pretty hairy ideas about including everybody in the mass. Maybe they tend to over do it a tad. I don't know if it's endemic though, it hasn't been my experience to be honest....Perhaps these clips go viral simply because of their extra exhuberant celebrants There's exhuberant and then there is...well wearing cheese.

However, I have to add that although I mentioned that I thought it was the 'States' that it by no means indicates that I believe it could 'only' happen there..The American Catholics are the salt of the earth to be honest, and they've managed to use the internet and media better than anybody else in the Catholic english speaking countries that I am aware of so far, which is refreshing and a great resource. The likes of EWTN both the channel and the online community are brilliant. So grateful they exist, and not a little due to the efforts of a tiny nun with a big heart and attitude

These abuses can happen anywhere, and you're right, the American Catholic Church has also much to be proud of.

My motive for posting the outlandish examples is to show what is allowed to creep in under the false excuses of “fashion”, “modern” and "entertainment", and to better inform Irish Catholics to encourage their local Bishops and Clergy to always strive to perform a sacred and dignified Holy Sacrifice of Mass, consistent with the beautiful time served traditions of the Catholic Church.

lmaopml

Very many of the churches allow you to view in real time online where I'm from Quo Vadis. It's lovely for those who can't actually get out at all due to illness, or are old and house bound but have somebody with the savy to give them the option of their familiar parish church - and it can mean so much too.

I understand highlighting a genuine concern, and giving forewarning..I hope it's isolated and not a new trend too.

brianthelion

The reason that we are seen these happenings in the church is because we are living under the Anti Pope and we have been since 1958.In 1958 following the death of Pope PiusX11 the man elected to be Pope was Cardinal Siri of Genoa who took the name of Gregory XV11 but under threat from French Cardinals he was not allowed to take his place as Pope 2 days later Pope John XX111 was elected Go to the red pope on Google

Donatello

brianthelion wrote: »

The reason that we are seen these happenings in the church is because we are living under the Anti Pope and we have been since 1958.In 1958 following the death of Pope PiusX11 the man elected to be Pope was Cardinal Siri of Genoa who took the name of Gregory XV11 but under threat from French Cardinals he was not allowed to take his place as Pope 2 days later Pope John XX111 was elected Go to the red pope on Google

Not according to Cardinal Siri. He accepted Pope John XXIII as Pope. There was no issue of the Pope not being valid, not for him, anyway.

Note that I do not endorse the contents of this site, nor necessarily the views of John Vennari, but it is interesting all the same:

After the 1958 election, Cardinal Siri gave public obeisance to Pope John XXIII and recognized him as Vicar of Christ. He did likewise with Popes Paul VI, John Paul I and John Paul II. If Cardinal Siri were truly a “Secret Pope”, what sort of scoundrel was he to give public obedience to men whom he knew to be impostors? This theory actually defames Cardinal Siri rather than honors him.

Cardinal Siri reportedly received the majority vote in 1963, but declined to accept because of what Malachi Martin called, “a little brutality”. Nonetheless, Cardinal Siri participated in all the post-1958 conclaves: 1963 and the two in 1978. Why would Pope Gregory XVII take part in false conclaves when he was already Pope?

Cardinal Siri participated in the Second Vatican Council, which was called, if the Siri Thesis is correct, by a Holy Father who was neither Holy nor the Church’s Father. Siri accepted the decisions of Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition. He adopted the reforms, celebrated the Novus Ordo Mass, ordained priests in the New Rite, and consecrated bishops in the New Rite. Why would Pope Gregory XVII adopt sacraments and liturgical re-forms enacted by men whom he knew were false Popes? What sort of man does “our last true Pope” turn out to be?

Cardinal Siri recognized Vatican II to be a disaster. He said, “If the Church were not Divine, the Council would have buried her.” Why would he in any way submit to this destructive Council if he knew it to be the work of papal impostors? Archbishop Lefebvre and Bishop de Castro Mayer manfully resisted the destruction of Vatican II, with no personal claim to the papacy at all.

In Cardinal Siri’s book Gethsemane, in which he was exceedingly critical of modern theologians such as Father Karl Rahner, Father Henri de Lubac and Jacques Maritain, Siri repeatedly refers to “Pope Paul VI”, something no honest man would do who knew himself to be the true Pope.

URL="http://www.cfnews.org/Siri.htm"]Source[/URL

brianthelion

According to Cardinal Siri He recoginized John the XX111 as Pope under threats to his family.The guy in charge of getting things ready for the next Pope was said to have tried to let the news out but mysteriously burned to death on his bed,Pope John Paul 1 was heard to say daily that his reign would be short as he was waiting for the Foreigner,Pope jp11.We know the masons infiltrated the Vatican and there is proof that Both John XX111 and Pope paul V1 were masons then we got the foreigner and now we have the German

tenchi-fan

brianthelion wrote: »

According to Cardinal Siri He recoginized John the XX111 as Pope under threats to his family.The guy in charge of getting things ready for the next Pope was said to have tried to let the news out but mysteriously burned to death on his bed,Pope John Paul 1 was heard to say daily that his reign would be short as he was waiting for the Foreigner,Pope jp11.We know the masons infiltrated the Vatican and there is proof that Both John XX111 and Pope paul V1 were masons then we got the foreigner and now we have the German

While a very interesting topic, the topic under discussion is "differences in a Catholic mass in Ireland".

Why not create a new post here.

Asry

I'm really finding some of the examples of the abuses in here quite shocking. Maybe I'm more conservative than I thought! :rolleyes:

But I don't remember pre-Vatican II, being a child of the 80s and all that. To think that the folk group music provided at some of the masses irritates me enough - I wonder what shinanegans like the examples above would do....