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Renunciation Log.
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21-05-2011 11:52am#1
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Thank you
I hope to make this a case in point as regards this issue. I don't know whether I should also document the reactions of the Christian community as I am in communication with them, on the boards.ie forum. This is probably a very giant "no, no" and in this case I will leave it out.0 -
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I should reaaaallllllllly be taking two buses to Beaumont hospital to see my great uncle right now but it's all windy and it's my day off and I don't want to! /tantrum.
As for renunciation/excommunication, I need to check the veracity of an article I found on it, posted on the Australian Atheist Foundation website. To paraphrase:
a) "As of 1983 there are nine canons under which excommunication can take place. Five of them only apply to priests or bishops." [ok that wasn't a paraphrase at all]
b) 1 - attack the pope. Obviously this has criminal repercussions so em, no thanks. No jailbait for Asry just yet.
c) 2 - desecration of the host. Again. Probably involving criminal damage and kind of really not on my list of options.
d) 3 - Abortion. I don't really want to get knocked up and get it aborted just so that I can get kicked out of the club. But apparently that extends to advocating abortion, aiding women to get abortions (by what? giving them info or monies for the flight?).
e) 4 - Apostasy, heresy, or schism. Here's the big one. Embrace another religion, like Islam or Judaism. But I don't want to be Muslim or Jewish. "It is your task to convince the church that you, as an atheistic secular humanist, (or whatever) are in the same 'non-Catholic' category as a Muslim or Buddhist. In your favor is a nineteenth century ruling which stated that ":those who make a public renunciation of all religion may be subsumed under this category [apostates].""
f) action to take: You will need to write a letter to your current parish. It should include the necessary information to meet all of the criteria for deserving to be excommunicated. You may also present this to your birth parish, if this is convenient.0 -
philologos wrote: »Asry, having seen much of your posts both in the Christianity forum and in the LGBT forum although I might disagree with some of what you have had to say I have gained a lot of respect for you over the last while and I wish you the very best.
Thank you Philo I respect you very much also. At least you seem to be sane and rational about things. That'll be the Protestantism! /appropriate pirate-related arm action.
I would warn you to be careful over there in your defense of my choice to leave as you might get ripped apart.0 -
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hypersquirrel wrote: »I can't pretend to know what it feels like to turn away from the church and it's teachings because I never followed them but I can say that when you sit down and think through it all you will find something that you know in your heart to be right whether it be a slight adjustment to the teachings of the Catholic faith or a complete overhaul of your faith. It is a great weight off your shoulders but also a great comfort to have something that you can believe in without those niggling doubts. If everybody's relationship with God is unique then surely everybody's interpretation of their faith should be too.
I'm extremely tired when I'm writing all this so I have no idea if I'm even making sense but long story short, I admire your courage and hope it works out as well for you as it did for me. It's not easy but nothing good ever is.
Thank you, tired squirrel I should be in bed also. It's going to be difficult. I don't think I really realised how much until I actually began to think about it. I will require a complete overhaul of the way I view myself, my sexuality, the world and the people in it.
But in that, there is a strange joy. I might begin to be able to live my live as the person I am, the person God made, rather than the person so many other people seem to want me to be.
I admit that I am afraid. I know that I could be sanctioning my own condemnation into eternal hell, but to be frank, it's not hell I'm worried about right now. It's my life. I'm coming to think that the mental ill-health issues I have been experiencing for over a decade might very well come down to what I have been trained (brainwashed?) to believe about myself.
There comes a time when you need to let go.
Even today I've been flicking through moments of terror where I wonder what the hell I'm doing, and of course I won't leave the Church, and of course I will subjugate myself to the RCC's interpretation of the will of God.
If I do send that letter, and it's done and over, and I am outcast from divine grace then that's something I'm going to have to deal with when it happens.0 -
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Just saw this on a friend's facebook page, and I thought I'd share it here -
Truth is not doctrine, truth is a person, love is not a concept, love is a person, the word of God is not a book, the word of God is a person....are you following things or a person?
Lovely to meet you last night, Asry. 0 -
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I think you should p1ss off both denominations, just to be safeAs for making a formal renunciation though, it could prove complicated. I was born 3 months premature, and was baptised Catholic in the hospital because they thought I would die. But then when I was ok, I had a formal Protestant christening. So...is it first come first served or what? And then which parish would I write to? And where the hell would I find my baptism certificate?
Thanks for the update. Hope you are keeping well - hope this stuff is getting easier for you.0 -
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There are organisations I could get involved in, but to be honest, as a lay woman, I feel I will not be listened to or, if I was, I wouldn't be taken seriously. Like your grandmother (maybe), I genuinely do feel I have a vocation to the priesthood, which of course is nonsense, as I can't because of my gender. Talk about disenfranchisement.
In fairness though, the RCC do base their views entirely on the Bible itself, where it states very clearly, many times, why homosexuality is morally wrong and unnatural.
As a side note, here's interesting wiki on 'Ego-dystonic Sexual Orientation':
I just emailed the entire following text to a friend. I find it very informative, and I can definitely see their point. It should have made me angry but oddly I find myself agreeing, and somewhat placated. Are the key points of the document right, or am I in some form of repressed denial (the way some of my friends keep telling me I am!)?
EXTRACTS FROM "Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination:
Guidelines for Pastoral Care"
Issued by USCCB, November 14, 2006
Copyright © 2006, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
[Entire Text:
http://www.usccb.org/doctrine/Ministry.pdf]
The Bible and All
Jesus taught that “from the
beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female. For this reason a man shall leave his
father and mother [and be joined to his wife], and the two shall become one flesh’” (Mk 10:6-8).
The purpose of sexual desire is to draw man and woman together in the bond of marriage,
a bond that is directed toward two inseparable ends: the expression of marital love and the
procreation and education of children. “The spouses’ union achieves the twofold end of
marriage: the good of the spouses themselves and the transmission of life.”
6
This is the order of
nature, an order whose source is ultimately the wisdom of God.
Immorality:
The fact that homosexual acts are
immoral may never be used to justify violence or unjust discrimination. p14
More Immorality:
Because of both Original Sin and personal sin, moral disorder is all too common in our
world. There are a variety of acts, such as adultery, fornication, masturbation, and contraception,
that violate the proper ends of human sexuality. Homosexual acts also violate the true purpose of
sexuality. They are sexual acts that cannot be open to life. Nor do they reflect the
complementarity of man and woman that is an integral part of God’s design for human
sexuality.
8
Consequently, the Catholic Church has consistently taught that homosexual acts “are
contrary to the natural law. . . . Under no circumstances can they be approved.”
***REALLY IMPORTANT***
It is crucially important to understand that saying a person has a particular inclination that
is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. Nor does it mean that one has
been rejected by God or the Church. Sometimes the Church is misinterpreted or misrepresented
as teaching that persons with homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, as if everything
about them were disordered or rendered morally defective by this inclination. Rather, the
disorder is in that particular inclination, which is not ordered toward the fulfillment of the natural
ends of human sexuality.
We are all damaged by the effects of sin, which causes desires to become disordered.
Simply possessing such inclinations does not constitute a sin, at least to the extent that they are
beyond one’s control. Acting on such inclinations, however, is always wrong.
1
Anti-Gay Violence
In keeping with this conviction, the Church teaches that persons with a homosexual
inclination “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.”
2
We recognize that
these persons have been, and often continue to be, objects of scorn, hatred, and even violence in
some sectors of our society. Sometimes this hatred is manifested clearly; other times, it is
masked and gives rise to more disguised forms of hatred. “It is deplorable that homosexual
persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment
deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs.”
3
This bit's kind of long, but it's about Western culture and homosexuality:
The Church’s teaching on homosexuality is attentive to the natural law imprinted in
human nature and faithful to the Sacred Scriptures. This teaching offers a beacon of light and
hope in the midst of considerable confusion, intense emotion, and much conflict. Within our
culture, however, there are various obstacles that make it more difficult for some people to
recognize the wisdom contained in this teaching
At the same time, there are features specific to contemporary Western culture that inhibit
the reception of Church teaching on sexual issues in general and on homosexuality in particular.
For example, there is a strong tendency toward moral relativism in our society. Many do not
admit an objective basis for moral judgments. They recognize no acts as intrinsically evil but
maintain that judgments of good and bad are entirely subjective. In this view, matters of sexual
morality should be left for individuals to decide according to their own preferences and values,
with the only restriction that they not cause manifest harm to another individual.
Because Church teaching insists that there are objective moral norms, there are those in
our culture who portray this teaching as unjust, that is, as opposed to basic human rights. Such
claims usually follow from a form of moral relativism that is joined, not without inconsistency,
to a belief in the absolute rights of individuals. In this view, the Church is perceived as
promoting a particular prejudice and as interfering with individual freedom.
In fact, the Church actively asserts and promotes the intrinsic dignity of every person. As
human persons, persons with a homosexual inclination have the same basic rights as all people,
including the right to be treated with dignity. Nevertheless “‘sexual orientation’ does not
constitute a quality comparable to race, ethnic background, etc., in respect to nondiscrimination.”
33
Therefore, it is not unjust, for example, to limit the bond of marriage to the
union of a woman and a man. It is not unjust to oppose granting to homosexual couples benefits
that in justice should belong to marriage alone. “When marriage is redefined so as to make other
relationships equivalent to it, the institution of marriage is devalued and further weakened. The
weakening of this basic institution at all levels and by various forces has already exacted too high
a social cost.”
Another common characteristic of Western societies that poses an obstacle to the
reception of Church teaching is the widespread tendency toward hedonism, an obsession with the
pursuit of pleasure. This tendency is closely related to the consumerism of our culture, which
promotes an approach to life that is marked by a concern to maximize pleasure. Viewed from
this perspective, sexual relations are seen as simply another form of pleasure. Promiscuity is
regarded as not only acceptable but normal. The virtue of chastity becomes incomprehensible. It
can even appear to be an unhealthy and unnatural denial of pleasure. Moreover, there are many
in our society, particularly in the advertising and entertainment industries, who make enormous
profits by taking advantage of this tendency and who work to promote it by their actions.
Given such strong influences in our culture, it is not surprising that there are a number of
groups active in our society that not only deny the existence of objective moral norms but also
aggressively seek public approval for homosexual behavior. The message of such groups
misleads many people and causes considerable harm. In the face of this challenge the Church
must continue her efforts to persuade people through rational argument, the witness of her life,
and the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.0 -
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Killer_banana wrote: »Well if the Catholic God exists and is all knowing and whatnot surely he would know you want to renounce your faith and therefore oyu would no longer be Catholic in his eyes?
Then again what do I know? My own religious beliefs have gotten a bit confusing and complicated of late.
I don't know if it works that way
Maybe I should talk to my priest? Or one of them? There's like 3 in Malahide or something. Or more? Je ne sais pas, I'm only thinking of the village church, not the Seabury one as well......
And yeah, things are really confusing and complicated lately. What is WITH that anyway! Come on, Universe, stop messing us about here!0 -
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I modded parrotsnormal too, I might be able to help exorcise your demons as a bonus.
in response to your dilemma, as an Irish citizen there is nothing prohibiting me from acquiring citizenship of another country, all I have to do is live there for an amount of time or fulfill other obligations that entitle me to it and there is no clause which requires me to renounce my Irish citizenship in order to do so. Your religion is much the same.
I have been considering other countries. The climates there are so much better than this one, you know, where there is nothing but RAIN. {mmm metaphorical}
But which country? I've been thinking of all of them and rejecting all of them because I see them as going against my belief system...which is rigidly Catholic.
It's been suggested I need a cult deprogrammer
Or Catholic detox!0 -
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