Would home rule have been enforced on the whole island

jonniebgood1

As most are aware home rule was proposed for quite a while for Ireland and eventually the British method of passing bills in both houses was altered to facilitate the passing of the home rule bill. This created a situation that Ulster was against and brought with it many threats from more militant folk up north. I was looking into this and whether Home rule would have been enforced. I've heard reference to the Curragh incident before but not really looked into it so maybe someone can point towards/ link to more detail on it. It seems an interesting subject with the possibility of the crown army occupying parts of Belfast and enforcing Home rule from Dublin being intriguing.

A starting point summary is here

Curragh incident. Often known as the ‘Curragh mutiny’, though no direct orders of any kind were disobeyed, this occurred in March 1914 when, led by Brig. Gen. Hubert Gough, 60 British cavalry officers at the Curragh camp near Kildare resigned their commissions rather than obey orders which they believed were aimed at coercing Ulster unionists into accepting home rule. When the government planned to deploy troops throughout Ulster against the possibility of armed unionist action, the commander‐in‐chief in Ireland, General Sir Arthur Paget, had injudiciously conceded that officers domiciled in Ulster would be permitted to ‘disappear’ during this operation, but that no concession would be allowed otherwise, even for men like Gough with Irish family connections. The War Office refused to accept the resignations and told the officers that the government did not intend to take offensive action against Ulster. But this assurance was given without cabinet authority, by the secretary for war and the chief of the imperial general staff, both of whom were subsequently obliged to resign. Although the prime minister afterwards repudiated the assurance, in effect the affair meant that the army could not be used to quell Ulster opposition to home rule.

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Curragh_incident.aspx
All views welcome. Would the army have been persuaded to obey orders- I'm sure if the Irish forces refused they could have brought in troops from Britain?

owenc

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

Presumably, the Home Rule government would have included representatives from all political persuasions?

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

History actually tells us the exact opposite. Their were no shortage of unionists in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan etc as well as even Dublin where Carson was from and elected several unionists in the 1918 election gobbing off how there would be a blood bath etc if Home Rule/Irish Independence came about. But when the Brits said - We are going, if you want to fight to the last man etc, well you can do it without us. What happened the big, bad threatened violence on a massive scale ? Nothing of course, barely a whimper Indeed it says a lot about unionist 'loyalty' that they abounded their brethren in the border counties and the rest of the country without a thought.

Indeed here's a fine example of unionist mouthing in Donegal pre partition -" On October 2. 1913, Sir Edward Carson held a great rally at Raphoe. 1500 Donegal volunteers paraded under the command of the fifth Earl of Leitrim. The "Derry Standard" published the headlines" Sir Edward Carson at Raphoe – imposing view of Ulster Volunteers – Donegal's "NO SURRENDER."

http://ams2-aai-web-1.anu.net/reading-room/history-heritage/heritage-towns/the-heritage-towns-of-don/raphoe/the-laggan-and-the-ulster/

Judgement Day

In fairness, while there might have been 'plenty' of loyalists in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan they would have been an isolated minority in a sea of nationalists - pragmatism won out.

PatsytheNazi

Judgement Day wrote: »

In fairness, while there might have been 'plenty' of loyalists in Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan they would have been an isolated minority in a sea of nationalists - pragmatism won out.

Well the unionists were also pragmatic in Fermanagh, West Tyrone, South Armagh, South Down etc when the ratio wasn't so great. The vast majority of attacks that happened were in north Armagh, north Down and Antrim in places like Portadown, Larne, Ballymena and Belfast where nationalists back then would have been easily outnumbered.

One interesting point is, in general the RIC did try to stop the unionist mobs - until been ordered to remain in barracks by superiors appointed by the British army. This would probably have been due to the fact that the RIC been an all Ireland organization and would have been recruited from every part of the country and hence would have tried to carry out their role as a police force and not some unionist millita.

owenc

Well I don't think it's a sensible idea to compare donegal to the north coast as there are hardly any unionists in donegal and they would be of a different brand of culture to us ie they weren't ready to fight over it.. Plus they would fail over the amount of nationalists In donegal... Try comparing that to north antrim or around here were there is a very High unionist population alot of people would probably riot if there was a united Ireland I can see it now there's no Way.. I can't see us being in a ui either far to many Protestants around here Nd you can say whatever you like about Catholics rising but here there's no rise intact the catholic church is shrinking here versus the presbyterians and a substantial rise of C of I I can't see it this will never be a catholic area so we will never be involved in a ui here so I have no need to worry

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Well I don't think it's a sensible idea to compare donegal to the north coast as there are hardly any unionists in donegal and they would be of a different brand of culture to us ie they weren't ready to fight over it.. Plus they would fail over the amount of nationalists In donegal... Try comparing that to north antrim or around here were there is a very High unionist population alot of people would probably riot if there was a united Ireland I can see it now there's no Way.. I can't see us being in a ui either far to many Protestants around here Nd you can say whatever you like about Catholics rising but here there's no rise intact the catholic church is shrinking here versus the presbyterians and a substantial rise of C of I I can't see it this will never be a catholic area so we will never be involved in a ui here so I have no need to worry

So it would have been Antrim, north Armagh, north Down versus the rest of Ireland :eek:

Now won't it have been a bit of a different prospect instead of attacking vastly outnumbered almost defenseless nationalists in the north east - taking on the rest of Ireland

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So it would have been Antrim, north Armagh, north Down versus the rest of Ireland :eek:

Now won't it have been a bit of a different prospect instead of attacking vastly outnumbered almost defenseless nationalists in the north east - taking on the rest of Ireland

You forgot east londonderry.. Oh and we can just stay in the uk or northern Ireland cam just become independent or better more stay the same as it is because most people aren't bothered and your causing trouble for nothing!? And yes it would be as already stated donegal snit comparable way us.. Oh and you think were defensive we are not as I'm sure people have Been preparing!?

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

You forgot east londonderry.. Oh and we can just stay in the uk or northern Ireland cam just become independent or better more stay the same as it is because most people aren't bothered and your causing trouble for nothing!? And yes it would be as already stated donegal snit comparable way us.. Oh and you think were defensive we are not as I'm sure people have Been preparing!?

As per post #4, 1,500 Donegal unionists were shouting NO SURRENDER - plenty of surrender out of them and the rest of them in Dublin, Monaghan etc when daddy Britain said we're going, fight them to the last man now if you want

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

As per post #4, 1,500 Donegal unionists were shouting NO SURRENDER - plenty of surrender out of them and the rest of them in Dublin, Monaghan etc when daddy Britain said we're going, fight them to the last man now if you want

Well you can say whatever you Like but we will not be joining yous for a long time if ever so you can dream right on.. Ams it's up to us again not the mainland

purplepanda

We now have the situation of the usual threats & bluster that has been used over the last century & more towards the British Government by extreme loyalists, always threatening violence & lawbreaking against the state they profess to care about. Even recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. :rolleyes:

Only this time it appears that the bluster brigade have new allies, their former mortal enemies & now partners in devilment, SF & PIRA all suckling along on the teat & trying to get Osbourne, Clegg & Cameron & Co to make an exception whilst everyone else suffers :mad:

Which loyalist Paramilitary leader once said their last battle would be with the British Army?

A friend of mine from County Down always says none of the scumbags from either side should ever have been let out in the first place under the GFA.


My English Stepmother often mentioned that Ian Paisley (a supposed man of God) should have been locked up for years for inciting violence & hatecrimes. :eek:

Time to crack the whip I reckon;)

Judgement Day

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

No way absolutely not and if it did ever happen to happen there would be a riot up here and as well as that i would think that there would be people who would not listen to anything the irish government told them to do.. and so it would be pointless.

But if the army sent divisions over from England it could have been enforced. Or would it have been the opposite of the war of independence- i.e. trouble in the north east with the army being attacked by loyalists as they tried to keep order. The mutiny referred in OP indicates that it was a very real possibility. If WWI had'nt happened Britain could easily have enforced this order given their army strength in 1914. It would be interesting to see more about the reason for Pagets reaction- he obviously felt it was a real possibility.

owenc

Judgement Day wrote: »

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

Aye that's what I just said above everyones happy the way it is now and most Catholics don't even care anymore who cares if they vote for sf maybe it's Judy because they like their policies just like over in Scotland... Most of them think we're better off in the uk anyway and they are right ...

PatsytheNazi

purplepanda wrote: »

We now have the situation of the usual threats & bluster that has been used over the last century & more towards the British Government by extreme loyalists, always threatening violence & lawbreaking against the state they profess to care about. Even recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. :rolleyes:

Only this time it appears that the bluster brigade have new allies, their former mortal enemies & now partners in devilment, SF & PIRA all suckling along on the teat & trying to get Osbourne, Clegg & Cameron & Co to make an exception whilst everyone else suffers :mad:

:eek: Extraordinary. Since you brought it up, never heard on the news of " recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. " nor seen a thread about it on boards.ie or politics.ie :eek:

Who exactly said that, Martin McGuinness, Peter Robinson ? Link please

A friend of mine from County Down always says none of the scumbags from either side should ever have been let out in the first place under the GFA.

Well again since you brought it up - would you agree that too many scumbags in the British army, RUC etc who never served a day in prison should have been a higher priority than fellas who actually did serve time in prison - many of them loyalists put up to it by the Brit dirty tricks dept and RUC Special Branch ?

It should be pointed out that back in the ' good old days ' around 1920, the good old Tommy's never made any disguise about their neutrality and openly lead unionist mobs in attacks and looting on the nationalists in the north east. I'd recommend a book called The Burnings by Pearse Lawlor on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burnings-1920-Pearse-Lawlor/dp/1856356124

owenc

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

But if the army sent divisions over from England it could have been enforced. Or would it have been the opposite of the war of independence- i.e. trouble in the north east with the army being attacked by loyalists as they tried to keep order. The mutiny referred in OP indicates that it was a very real possibility. If WWI had'nt happened Britain could easily have enforced this order given their army strength in 1914. It would be interesting to see more about the reason for Pagets reaction- he obviously felt it was a real possibility.

No it couldn't have no one Wants to join you's anymore the uk has put too much money into us for us to join yous now plus everything is so different here it would cost a fortune to change everything over aswell as that yous canny afford us!? And I think the folk who want a ui would soon realize how much better the uk is and come crying to get back in again they are only
talking through their mouths... And even if we were to join yous northern
irelands population would shrink because of riots I'm not fee staying here of we do join you'd cuz there would be riots everywhere and my parents says they are not fer going through that **** again ... The immigrants would go back home swell... Also we did a survey in our school and most people planned to move away because it wouldn't be worth it...

westies4ever

owen please stop speaking for everyone in the north of ireland!!!!!!!!

your points should be 'I think', 'I believe' etc etc. as oppsed to 'everybody' and 'nobody'.

owenc

Flip me patsy it's as if the Catholics never did anything and it's all us all the time

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

:eek: Extraordinary. Since you brought it up, never heard on the news of " recently threatening a return to the bad old days of the troubles if the regions massive subsidies of 12 billion sterling a year are seriously cutback. " nor seen a thread about it on boards.ie or politics.ie :eek:

Who exactly said that, Martin McGuinness, Peter Robinson ? Link please

Well again since you brought it up - would you agree that too many scumbags in the British army, RUC etc who never served a day in prison should have been a higher priority than fellas who actually did serve time in prison - many of them loyalists put up to it by the Brit dirty tricks dept and RUC Special Branch ?

It should be pointed out that back in the ' good old days ' around 1920, the good old Tommy's
never made any disguise about their neutrality and openly lead unionist mobs in attacks and
looting on the nationalists in the north east.
I'd recommend a book called The Burnings by Pearse Lawlor on the subject
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Burnings-1920-Pearse
Lawlor/dp/1856356124

Well sure didn't they deserve it they were kicking up stirr And also you can say whatever you like about the ruc but they were a damn good police force and if it werent for them northern Ireland wouldve been in a far worse place than it was!? Oh and watch what you say or you will be reported

PatsytheNazi

owenc wrote: »

Well sure didn't they deserve it they were kicking up stirr And also you can say whatever you like about the ruc but they were a damn good police force and if it werent for them northern Ireland wouldve been in a far worse place than it was!? Oh and watch what you say or you will be reported

Oh, your just soooo funny.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

owenc

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Oh, your just soooo funny.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Whatever you don't gave a clue what your talking about

jonniebgood1

owenc wrote: »

No it couldn't have no one Wants to join you's anymore the uk has put too much money into us for us to join yous now plus everything is so different here it would cost a fortune to change everything over aswell as that yous canny afford us!? ...

Im not trying to be a smart ass but I doubt theres to many who would want NI. Most people I know see northern people of both faiths as a different breed of people who have more in common with each other in their ways, than with ordinary people here. I would be nationalistic and look at how things developed in the north with regret but at this stage things are as they are- the next problem in the north will be when the nationalist population exceeds loyaist.

Thats not the point though that this thread was about but I suppose it may find its way back to the OP at some stage. I don't agree that the British would'nt have enforced home rule. After all they did give in to Irish demands after the war of independence despite unionist pockets in Dublin and Cork. They could have met unionist pressure with martial law and who knows where we would have been. If this was not a possibility then what was the Curragh mutiny about then?

owenc

Well I canny see is being overtaken by Catholics anytime soon sure the catholic church is shrinking massively here the only places it is rising in Is republican areas but I'm sure it'll start falling their too when people realise that they want a modern church.. sure I've been told that there is only one catholic pastor to cover the whole of Coleraine I think they used tay have six priests or something the congregation is really small too they haddy get rid of a pile of wee country catholic churches too recently I can see things getting serious here I'd the decrease does not stop The dup seen a massive rise here by 4percent recently aswell...

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc by the tone of your comments i think you are a bit of a biggot. by the way i'm not anti British/Unionist/Protestant

owenc wrote: »

... I'm not fee staying here of we do join you'd cuz there would be riots everywhere and my parents says they are not fer going through that **** again ... The immigrants would go back home swell... Also we did a survey in our school and most people planned to move away because it wouldn't be worth it...

Slan Abhaile.

dont let the door hit you on the way out

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

owenc by the tone of your comments i think you are a bit of a biggot. by the way i'm not anti British/Unionist/Protestant



Slan Abhaile.

dont let the door hit you on the way out

Honestly no I'm not because my mother Is a Catholic lol... And I'm just saying it the way it Is most unionists are worse than me... You obviously haven't met many unionists.. Watch that and you'll see what a bigot is: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00zq2cx (and no I'm not supporting them they are an embaresment I can't believe they were aloud to say the things they did on national television .. They have some bones on them too even day it on the first place)

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Honestly no I'm not because my mother Is a Catholic lol...

so what.
Lenny Murphy the leader of loyalist heroes the "Shankill Butchers" had a Catholic ,or is it Papist, granny. another of Ulsters heroes Michael Stone had a Catholic granny.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

so what.
Lenny Murphy the leader of loyalist heroes the "Shankill Butchers" had a Catholic ,or is it Papist, granny. another of Ulsters heroes Michael Stone had a Catholic granny.

Yea big woop tay him but I think it's bit different fer your parents now come on!? I think it's good for me because I can see the arguments from both sides but it has been annoying listening to my grandmother and her biased opinions about Protestants ... Aw well anyway id suggest getting back on topic I hope you now know that I am by far bitter compared to other unionists

purplepanda

Judgement Day wrote: »

purplepanda - I'm confused, why is it time to crack the whip now when we have relative peace? Who does it need cracking with apart from the dissident republicans and to what purpose?

Maybe the term of phrase is wrong but there has been recent news reports of NI politicians & also political commentary suggesting that the province should be in some way sheltered or exempted from UK central goverment cuts & the threat of a return to violence has been mentioned in regards to this issue.

Hence me making the point in my post.

Anyway back to the subject perhaps Gladstone was right when he suggested Dominion status during the Home Rule period, which would have saved a long of bloodshed over the years.

CDfm

This is a very interesting question as people assume we operated and the UK operated as a democracy -which was not the case.

My grandfathers beef was with the Ascendency , a small elite that controlled the country and when he was growing up the poverty was such that 10% plus of his neighbours lived in mud/sod huts.

His father had a pub.

Of those with the vote , while it is hard to find the figures, at a maximum I estimated 1/3 of men had the vote.

Things were not like that in Northern Ireland and you had the "Ulster Custom " which may have made things more civilised.

The ascendency controlled the army whereas the police were more impartial.

Post 1918 in Ireland and Britain men over 21 and women over 30 all had the vote.

So would things have played out differently - they ought to because the UK parliment would have been more representative and probably had more sympathetic ears in parliment.

In Britain by 1930 when the franchise was extended to all women over 21 in a little over 12 years a democracy had emerged and the ascendency were adjusting and I doubt they would have viewed Ireland which such importance.

The British changed and by 1939 they were prepared to hand over the North if Ireland entered the War.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

This is a very interesting question as people assume we operated and the UK operated as a democracy -which was not the case.
.

Exacty- take WWI as the prime example of needless serving of the upper classes wishes. It was'nt just here and England though- France & Germany were the same at the time. It is a point that suggests they would have enforced home rule though.

CDfm wrote: »

The British changed and by 1939 they were prepared to hand over the North if Ireland entered the War.

Maybe they wanted rid of it- Would have saved them alot of money!!! Whether this would actually have happened is very debatable. You are correct to mention it as it is from the same gene pool of not really caring about the peoples wishes (democracy as you put it) as the orders/ rumours behind the 'curragh incident'.

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Yea big woop tay him but I think it's bit different fer your parents now come on!? I think it's good for me because I can see the arguments from both sides but it has been annoying listening to my grandmother and her biased opinions about Protestants ... Aw well anyway id suggest getting back on topic I hope you now know that I am by far bitter compared to other unionists

so its your Catholic grandmother that's the bigot and not you ?? those dirty "taigs" eh.
you couldn't see both sides of any story if it was the size of Belfast city hall.
and "well anyway id suggest getting back on topic" after you did a bit of sh1t stirring and ruin a good question from the OP.

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Exacty- take WWI as the prime example of needless serving of the upper classes wishes. It was'nt just here and England though- France & Germany were the same at the time. It is a point that suggests they would have enforced home rule though.

Maybe, you always have had elites. John Bruton the former Taoiseach has said Ireland is ruled by civil servants who us the Dail & Seanad to rubber stamp their rule.

Democracy was not a widely used system of government back then.

Maybe they wanted rid of it- Would have saved them alot of money!!! Whether this would actually have happened is very debatable. You are correct to mention it as it is from the same gene pool of not really caring about the peoples wishes (democracy as you put it) as the orders/ rumours behind the 'curragh incident'.

I dont think the money was an issue to those in power as MP's hadnt been been a paid job very long.

You need agreement in society or some type of cohesive force to agree a form of government. Like it or not the ascendency in Southern Ireland had not fostered that bond but they had that bond in the north.

So the democracy concept had yet to catch on. The organs of state had reported to the ascendency and now reported to parliment.

In one way the Unionists were saying dont mess with our winning formula.

By 1939 Britains political system had changed.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

so its your Catholic grandmother that's the bigot and not you ?? those dirty "taigs" eh.
you couldn't see both sides of any story if it was the size of Belfast city hall.
and "well anyway id suggest getting back on topic" after you did a bit of sh1t stirring and ruin a good question from the OP.

Sorry what? Stop judging my family we have better things to do than talk about Catholics and if I said anything about Catholics I would get hit... My folks are of the conservative variety you won't find us using the word taig infact I didn't find out about that until I came to school sorry to dissapoint you but we are not of the bitter orange order variety infact my dad dosnt even like them so you can retract your statement... And what has this got to do with that? I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all In the orange order when about an ninth of us are In it seriously you have no clue so don't even bother saying anything because yous have no clue what your talking about your just listening to your grandparents or something.

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

Sorry what? Stop judging my family we have better things to do than talk about Catholics and if I said anything about Catholics I would get hit... My folks are of the conservative variety you won't find us using the word taig infact I didn't find out about that until I came to school sorry to dissapoint you but we are not of the bitter orange order variety infact my dad dosnt even like them so you can retract your statement... And what has this got to do with that? I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all In the orange order when about an ninth of us are In it seriously you have no clue so don't even bother saying anything because yous have no clue what your talking about your just listening to your grandparents or something.

sorry sweetheart i'm not judging your family, i'm giving an opinion on what you are saying and nothing else.
i think its you that are making sweeping statements about Catholics and not me making comments about other faiths. So your parents had to discipline you for saying bigoted comments about Catholics? i think your mask is starting to slip there.
and sorry i dont think i need to retract any statement.

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

I don't think Catholics down south have a clue about us really and this proves my point everytime I come on here yous are constantly bitching about us and saying how we hate Catholics and all that and that we are all

Owen. Now I used to go to the north for work and an ex-collegue of mine from my time living in London is in the Orange Order and we are friends.


I have no real problem with Unionists believing what they do politically and it does not bother me.

What we would see of the Orange tradition is what is reported in the media and usually such pieces have interviews with members or political representatives of both communities.

However, the Orange Order do have a tradition of not being open to Catholic membership and here is a quote from ABC Australia

The Orange Orders were founded in 1795 and are avowedly sectarian. A member cannot marry a Catholic and faces expulsion for attending a Catholic mass.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/perspective/stories/2006/1776931.htm

Visiting Derry last year I was struck at how small it was. Belfast was sadder cos you have the "peace walls" that dare not be taken down. Other than City Hall and the Crown Pub it is hard to find any historical buildings to visit.

What we see in the media is from community and political representatives and how they describe themselves and their traditions.

NI politics and society is a very intense place and in the south most of us are so removed from it that its a thing we see on telly.

(I cant see the point of Rangers & Celtics either other than getting community support for a second rate football league.)

Most people would like to see the communities in the North get along. What happens in London & Brussels is far more significant to us politically and economicaly. That really has been the outcome.

I wish you well & I hope we can get back to the topic at hand.

owenc

R.Dub.Fusilier wrote: »

sorry sweetheart i'm not judging your family, i'm giving an opinion on what you are saying and nothing else.
i think its you that are making sweeping statements about Catholics and not me making comments about other faiths. So your parents had to discipline you for saying bigoted comments about Catholics? i think your mask is starting to slip there.
and sorry i dont think i need to retract any statement.

What mask I'm not catholic fact! You think theres no such thing as non bitter protestants lol you do know that conservative families are respectful dress well etc? And you also have to remember my mothers family are catholic so I will be more accomping to Catholics than other folk.. And what sweeping statements did I make I was just saying it as it is alot of folk up here are worrying about their church... As there is a decline I'n numbers and a shortage of
priests.. There you go don't know how you can get offended way that and no I did not get Tould off because my folk do not know I use this site.. Seriously I canny believe that you think I'm catholic cuz my parents aren't bitter major generalisations here

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Owen. Now I used to go to the north for work and an ex-collegue of mine from my time living in London is in the Orange Order and we are friends.


I have no real problem with Unionists believing what they do politically and it does not bother me.

What we would see of the Orange tradition is what is reported in the media and usually such pieces have interviews with members or political representatives of both communities.

However, the Orange Order do have a tradition of not being open to Catholic membership and here is a quote from ABC Australia

Visiting Derry last year I was struck at how small it was. Belfast was sadder cos you have the "peace walls" that dare not be taken down. Other than City Hall and the Crown Pub it is hard to find any historical buildings to visit.

What we see in the media is from community and political representatives and
how they describe themselves and their traditions.

NI politics and society is a very intense place and in the south most of us are so removed from it that its a thing we see on telly.

(I cant see the point of Rangers & Celtics either other than getting community
support for a second rate football league.)

Most people would like to see the communities in the North get along. What happens in London & Brussels is far more significant to us politically and economicaly. That really has been the outcome.

I wish you well & I hope we can get back to the topic at hand.

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!! I just consider derry a large town and nothing more as do the locals it's not really a proper city but whatever. Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter (obviously something that boy from Dublin picked up on) and that really isn't us that's like a ninth of us or something honestly most are sick of the orange order and think they should at least change their rules and come out of the sand or else get disbanded why are they not In jail yet that's what I'd like to know In Any other country this would not be accepted maybe ni would be a better place if we got rid of all them folk.. Mind you they're not all like that there's a wee hall down below my place and they are nice people they wouldn't say a thing Tay you but now a days they are In the minority I have to say

R.Dub.Fusilier

owenc wrote: »

What mask I'm not catholic fact! You think theres no such thing as non bitter protestants lol you do know that conservative families are respectful dress well etc? And you also have to remember my mothers family are catholic so I will be more accomping to Catholics than other folk.. And what sweeping statements did I make I was just saying it as it is alot of folk up here are worrying about their church... As there is a decline I'n numbers and a shortage of
priests.. There you go don't know how you can get offended way that and no I did not get Tould off because my folk do not know I use this site.. Seriously I canny believe that you think I'm catholic cuz my parents aren't bitter major generalisations here

this will hopefully be my last comment on this matter but i did not say you are Catholic.the mask i am talking about is your wee sectarian mask which you do show and in my opinion you are a bigot . end of story.


Slan Slan

CDfm

owenc wrote: »

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!!

Not exactly, but that the areas like the Bogside in Derry or the Falls Road or Shankill in Belfast are small roads or estates and it is weird that we even know the names.

The whole of Europe would recognise those street names. So its the impression the world has.

The whole situation does come across as local and tribal. Well was it.

Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter

At least you understand where people acquire the impression.

Were there reasons in your view that Home Rule would not have been enforced.

What type of links were there with the UK social & culturally ?

What was the role of the ascendency and did that change.

ejmaztec

owenc wrote: »

Hi what did you expect?? 100000 over 1 million are you serious did you really expect Derry to be comparable with Dublin lol!! I just consider derry a large town and nothing more as do the locals it's not really a proper city but whatever. Yes and I think I agree as I think it's unfair getting sin fine and the orange order to vouch for us as that creates an opinion that we are all bitter (obviously something that boy from Dublin picked up on) and that really isn't us that's like a ninth of us or something honestly most are sick of the orange order and think they should at least change their rules and come out of the sand or else get disbanded why are they not In jail yet that's what I'd like to know In Any other country this would not be accepted maybe ni would be a better place if we got rid of all them folk.. Mind you they're not all like that there's a wee hall down below my place and they are nice people they wouldn't say a thing Tay you but now a days they are In the minority I have to say

I assume that its city status exists because it has a cathedral, which is how a city is defined in the UK. The size of the population is irrelevant.

owenc

CDfm wrote: »

Not exactly, but that the areas like the Bogside in Derry or the Falls Road or Shankill in Belfast are small roads or estates and it is weird that we even know the names.

The whole of Europe would recognise those street names. So its the impression the world has.

The whole situation does come across as local and tribal. Well was it.


At least you understand where people acquire the impression.

Were there reasons in your view that Home Rule would not have been enforced.

What type of links were there with the UK social & culturally ?

What was the role of the ascendency and did that change.

Yes we are a small place but we have quite a high population for our area and yes there is
territory problems especially In them wee divey estates but outside of That it's fine.. Are these
questions for me?? Well the first question well I believe that if they wanted to they wouldve
forced it but as I've already stated it would be utterly Pointless as no one would listen to
Them and there would be a riot and it would be pointless you needen bother saying it
wouldn't have been because it wouldve... Second question between unionist?? Lol well that is
just culture In my own family In let's say the 19th century we did not have links with the uk
but we were culturally like them with language and religion far more than down south Ie churches and the likes I think on the church my folks went to it says church of Scotland on it
accents were also similar you could even say the accent here is similar to Scotland here anyway we would be comparable to ayrshire but we would be less broad... And the third question well their aim was to be rich and snobby and make everyone pay money to them and their church just because they were English (yep Presbyterians had to pay the church of
Ireland folks Money despite the fact we didn't attend services) They also treated everyone like a bag of crap and of course most importantly they came first..:rolleyes: they also thought it would be funny to make everyone convert to their church by saying that their church was not legal nor their marriages (yes very hurtful) so folks here had to attend to local church of Ireland because of this (but I think they had Presbyterian services I'n the building ) and the Catholics well they weren't even aloud churches I don't think I think they haddy use some rock the rocks are on the hill behind my house still..

Mike 1972

Didnt the third home rule bill make provision for an opt out for (9 county) Ulster ?

Home rule was good idea whose time never came. Had it been implemented earlier it would probably have placated most nationalists who would at that stage have been content with autonomy within the UK. Unionists might have come to accept it as Irish society became more secularised. As it was the NI state before the days of direct rule was effectively a form of Home rule for (part of) Ulster.

ejmaztec wrote: »

I assume that its city status exists because it has a cathedral, which is how a city is defined in the UK..

Complete urban myth

jonniebgood1

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Didnt the third home rule bill make provision for an opt out for (9 county) Ulster ?

Home rule was good idea whose time never came. Had it been implemented earlier it would probably have placated most nationalists who would at that stage have been content with autonomy within the UK. Unionists might have come to accept it as Irish society became more secularised. As it was the NI state before the days of direct rule was effectively a form of Home rule for (part of) Ulster.

I think it was was not decided how many counties could opt out of the home rule. It was called the amending bill and it was to last for 6 years. There was also another party who tried to compromise between the Unionists and the Irish party views- the all for Ireland league.

There was an enduring split in Cork between the William O’Brien-led ‘All for Ireland League’ which had been established in 1909 and the Irish Parliamentary Party, led by John Redmond. The source of the split was differing attitudes to the 1903 Land Act and equally to the process of cooperation between unionists and nationalists, promoted by O’Brien as ‘conference, conciliation and consent’.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/exhibition/cork/government_politics_institutions.html
If the army had enforced home rule as per OP I would suggest that as things carried on with relatively little change that the Unionists would have began to partake in governing rather than opposing the will of both their King and of the majority of people.

CDfm

If you read OwenC's post he makes valid points.

There was no forcing northern unionists to go with the south because they were a diverse bunch and they alligned themselves with those most like themselves.

Think Harland & Wolff Belfast and the local industries that made the North sucessful & think the Ulster custom etc .

NI was integrated and killing home rule with kindness actually worked. Disestablishment of the Church and abolition of tithes etc.

My grandfathers nationalism was probably similar and he was anti-ascendency because his local guys were absolute sh1tes.

So the experience in the North especially for Presbyterians was not the same as a southern catholic.

A valid point of view and pragmatic because all politics is local - jobs, schools, roads etc.

jonniebgood1

CDfm wrote: »

NI was integrated and killing home rule with kindness actually worked. Disestablishment of the Church and abolition of tithes etc.
.

In what way do you mean killing home rule with kindness worked CD?
Home rule was due to be adopted at the outbreak of WWI. Do you mean socially?

CDfm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

In what way do you mean killing home rule with kindness worked CD?
Home rule was due to be adopted at the outbreak of WWI. Do you mean socially?

Well in the south killing Home Rule with kindness had made inroads and the royal visit of 1911 was popular and the initial reaction to the rising was negative.

UK social policies were also being put in and the British were spending more in Ireland then what they were taking out of the economy.

In NI it had a smaller job to do.

Judgement Day

I have always failed to understand how the British government ever tolerated the formation of the Ulster Volunteers (1912) or the Irish Volunteers (1913) and if they had put their foot down then the partition of Ireland would never have happened. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that with such a laissez faire attitude to Ireland that the UK's involvement here is now reduced to the embassy in Ballsbridge plus the residency, and six troublesome counties in the north. Whether or not you agree with the British presence in Ireland, it is through their own inadequate response to the republicans/loyalists nutters taking over the asylum that has led to the present insoluble position.

CDfm

That is something.

How did they get away with it .Some cojones.

Like in the UK only the only legal private army is the Athol Highlanders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders

The upshot was the Curragh Mutiny where the British government effectively lost control of its forces.

Its mad to think that a group like the Ulster Volunteers could import 24,000 rifles in the Larne gun running and nothing was done. The Irish Volunteers 1,000 brought in by Childers was a fraction.

It makes you wonder what the Government thought might happen & when .

Judgement Day

I think the views of another forgotten 'Irishman' Sir Henry Wilson who contemptuously referred to the politicians of the day as "the frocks" were about right. Sir Henry Wilson, who was later assassinated by the IRA, was first and foremost a military man who saw everything in black and white terms i.e deal with terrorists/rebels by force and then deal with the consequences instead of pussyfooting about the place. While he would still be reviled by nationalists he had it about right when it came to dealing with law and order. However, his pro-British loyalty saw his law and order stance seriously undermined by his tacit support for the Curragh Mutiny.

Incidentally, the impending break-up of the UK is another example of the British government's laissez faire attitude taken to its logical conclusion. Will they ever wake up - I doubt it. The probable outcome - a military coup in Britain. Henry Wilson was 90 years ahead of his time. Sorry for wandering way off topic.

Having taken the thread so far off topic I thought I might as well throw this Pathe newsreel link of Field Marshal Sir Henry Wilson's State Funeral in 1922. http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=18683 Not a bad turnout for a Longford boy!

CDfm

Its significance was massive

The Daily Chronicle reported:
For the first time in modern English history a military cabal seeks to dictate to Government the Bills it should carry or not carry into law. We are confronted with a desperate rally of reactionaries to defeat the democratic movement and repeal the Parliamentary Act. This move by a few aristocratic officers is the last throw in the game.
The Daily Express announced in black type that “the Home Rule Bill is Dead,” and The Daily News queried, “It is a question whether we govern ourselves or are governed by General Cough. Speaking on the Irish Question, at meet*ing held at Huddersfield on March 2 1st, Mr. Lloyd George said:
We are confronted with the greatest issue raised in this country since the days of the Stuarts. Representative government in this land is at stake. In those days our forefathers had to face a claim of the Divine Right of Kings to do what they pleased. Today it is the Divine Right of the aristocracy to do what its pleases .
We are not fighting about Ulster. We are not fighting about Home Rule. We are fighting for all that is essential to civil liberty in this land.

This is a great article on the events

http://www.curragh.info/articles/mutiny.htm