Holiday booked before getting job - Help needed ASAP

NicoleL88

Hi all,

I'm stuck in a really crappy situation, its a bit long winded so bear with me. I got called for a phone interview for a company in Cork, one of the first questions they asked was "Do you have any upcoming holidays booked?" I said yes and gave them the exact dates. I was told "Ok".

In the in-person interview I was asked the same question and was again told "Ok".

The day after the interview I was phoned and asked "Do you actually have a holiday booked on these dates?" I said yes and she said "Ok, its just that a few others have holidays booked on the same dates, but that's fine."

My boyfriend has booked a holiday for me for my birthday for us to go to Venice from July 20th to the 24th. My job would require me to only work weekdays so I would only require 3 days off work - unpaid of course.

I get a call this morning saying I can have the job but not my holiday. I explain that everything is fully booked and paid for and she basically says "Choose between the job and the holiday". I told her that she was putting me in an incredibly difficult situation and she knows how badly I need this job. She didn't really seem to care. I told her I would accept the job but would need to sort this out as the holiday was (as I've mentioned) already booked and paid for. She said if I could even move the holiday to the week before she could do that.

I got onto HR about it and she said she would look into it. Five minutes later she calls me back and says (and I'm paraphrasing) "No you can't have the original dates you asked for. In fact you cant' have any holiday at all".

I was so upset as you can imagine. She again was completely non-sympathetic and said "Oh well... we'd ALL love a holiday".

I explained to her the fact that I was told that these dates were ok but she didn't seem to care.

My plan is to ring the boss there in the morning and explain the situation to him and hopefully he could help.

What I want to know is do I have any legal rights? Do prospective employers have to honour holidays booked prior to you accepting a job with them? Please also take into account the fact that I was told these dates were ok, was then told to change them, and was then told I couldn't have anything at all.

mrsbyrne

no employers dont have to honour pre-booked holidays. you accrue holidays as you work. even at that you are subject to the employers discretion as to when you may take holidays, up to a point. for instance an employee is entitled to an unbroken fortnights holidays in the summer, as long as they have accrued 10 days holidays. when the fortnight may be is up for discussion. you have no entitlements in this situation. by all means see if the boss will listen to you but you are at risk of them withdrawing the job offer.

NicoleL88

I'm not looking for a holiday. I'm looking to have three days leave - unpaid after I have completed my training.

JimiTime

As far as I'm aware, they have no obligation to honour holidays, but two things spring to my mind:

1) If they really feel that you are the one for the job, then they are taking a rather stupid stance with you for the sake of starting 3 days later

2) If this is how they are behaving, I'd seriously question the wisdom of taking the job. Of course, if the work is needed its needed, but if there is any way you can hold out, they don't sound like they are going to be a very pleasant employer to work for.

scudzilla

JimiTime wrote: »

As far as I'm aware, they have no obligation to honour holidays, but two things spring to my mind:

1) If they really feel that you are the one for the job, then they are taking a rather stupid stance with you for the sake of starting 3 days later

2) If this is how they are behaving, I'd seriously question the wisdom of taking the job. Of course, if the work is needed its needed, but if there is any way you can hold out, they don't sound like they are going to be a very pleasant employer to work for.

That ^ ^

tenchi-fan

No, you don't have legal rights.

You're really burning your bridges if you try to pit the manager against the HR department. The holiday is clearly more important to you at this stage. Just take it, relax, and forget about the job.

filthymcnasty

"Choose between the job and the holiday".
jesus sounds like Ebenezer Scrooge, as said sounds like this will be par for the course going forward- if they are this petty before you have even started.

mrsbyrne

NicoleL88 wrote: »

I'm not looking for a holiday. I'm looking to have three days leave - unpaid after I have completed my training.

time off at your own expense, whatever, your not entitled. look at it this way, if every employee were to take time off whenever it suited them on demand, no business could survive. your asking the employer to make allowances, but have you made any real attempt to move the holiday?

NicoleL88

Yes we have and it can't be. My boyfriend can't afford to lose that money. He works for the same company and can't change the holiday dates he has booked. The point now is that they've told me three times those dates were fine, then changed their minds saying I can't have THOSE dates, and have again come back to me saying I can't have ANY time off at all.

MrsByrne, I'm not fond of the way you're phrasing this, I'm not looking for time off here and there and swanning off places, I'm looking for three days unpaid leave which they agreed to, which led to my boyfriend booking and paying for everything and then they changed their minds. This is completely unfair. It is a MASSIVE company with over 1,000 employees that are hiring new people every day. They won't miss me for three days.

I'll have no contact with HR or the recruitment agency one I start working there. And I'm not looking to start the job three days later, I will be starting on June 7th and need July 20th-22nd off like I stated several times before I was even offered the job.

Babooshka

mrsbyrne wrote: »

time off at your own expense, whatever, your not entitled. look at it this way, if every employee were to take time off whenever it suited them on demand, no business could survive. your asking the employer to make allowances, but have you made any real attempt to move the holiday?

She is not asking her employer to make allowances, read her post again, they told her it was ok at interview and now they're taking it back.The girl was up front about it and told them, and they then renagued (sp?) on what they told her, she did nothing wrong and we don't all have to cow down to uppety managers who think that now there are so many more people needing jobs they can treat people like crap.

If you're being hired for your skills that are valued, 3 days off will mean nothing to management who know what they're doing, regardless of them being busy at the time. Sounds like they just need bums on seats.

Don't take the job, you'll find a way to put food on the table another way, one way or another, they sound like incomptetent idiots and it sounds like the start of a nightmare. I don't care how bad off you are, if they can't live up to what they told you at INTERVIEW stage, then they're going to treat you like crap for the rest of your employment. Enjoy your holiday, and remember your worth, you're not jetting off for 3 months, it's 3 days.

I doubt you have any entitlements and they can do what they like, all the more reason, do you want to work for these kind of people? Quit your losses and walk away now, sanity is a precious commodity in this day and age.

inforfun

Of course i wasnt at the interview but the their "OK'" can be taken in 2 ways if i read this post.
1. the way you want it to sound: Those days are yours if you get the job
2. the way they might have meant it: Ok, noted, we ll see what we can do.

Now they offer the job but tell you those days you need to be there.

**** situation, maybe caused by not having a very clear answer during the interviews.

And your problem now is, that nowadays the employers have the power again and they know it.

NicoleL88

Inforfun: The day after the interview I got a call saying "Do you definitely have a holiday booked for those dates you gave me" I replied yes and she said "That's ok, its just that there's a lot of people off around that time but that's fine".

If that's not confirmation I don't know what is.

the_syco

Babooshka wrote: »

I don't care how bad off you are, if they can't live up to what they told you at INTERVIEW stage, then they're going to treat you like crap for the rest of your employment.

I'd reread the contract on what they promised in the interview...

JimiTime

the_syco wrote: »

I'd reread the contract on what they promised in the interview...

TBH, getting legalistic is really besides the point. I think everyone acknowledges that the company hold all the cards here. The real issue is that its a very petty, and seemingly very stupid stance that the company is taking. It doesn't actually matter what was promised or not promised in the interview btw, the company will actually hold all the cards regardless.

RedXIV

Possibly not a popular stance here OP but if you're going from unemployed to employed you're gonna have more money correct? A 3 day break in Venice is a lovely gesture but not terribly expensive. If you saved a bit of cash each week, you'll be surprised how quick you can save up for a holiday. Maybe I'm just a misery guts but a holiday will last 3 days, you're job WILL pay you.

When I was in college, about 6 of my classmates chipped in and got me a trip to amsterdam, it was an absolutely incredible gesture, one I'll never forget. But I couldn't take it as I was swamped with college work.

I think throwing away a job for 3 days of a holiday might well be something you regret. I'd skip the holiday and show up for work

Just my 2c

NicoleL88

Thanks Red but its not a three day trip, its a five day trip, including the weekend and going somewhere else as well as Venice.

Of course its expensive. That's not even the point. The point is that they said it was ok. Now after everything is fully booked they completely revoke it. Then go a step further towards saying I can't have any date off at all.

Babooshka

JimiTime wrote: »

TBH, getting legalistic is really besides the point. I think everyone acknowledges that the company hold all the cards here. The real issue is that its a very petty, and seemingly very stupid stance that the company is taking. It doesn't actually matter what was promised or not promised in the interview btw, the company will actually hold all the cards regardless.

Exactly, human beings come down to more than what is entitled or isn't entitled, there are ways to behave ethically and just plain decently towards all people, employee and employer, and that is my issue with it.

It stinks of no good to me to be honest, and comments thrown up like "contract at interview" etc are just looking for reactions IMO.

inforfun

NicoleL88 wrote: »

Inforfun: The day after the interview I got a call saying "Do you definitely have a holiday booked for those dates you gave me" I replied yes and she said "That's ok, its just that there's a lot of people off around that time but that's fine".

If that's not confirmation I don't know what is.

Dont get me wrong, i am not defending them.

Only 100% confirmation would have been:
You: So i have these days off?
Them: Yes, you have.

Again, i am not having a go at you but i just fear it is indeed now up to you: Job or holidays.

BostonB

If you need the job then you've no choice.

But personally I think you've had a warning, of what this place is like to work for. They could care less about the people working got them and their resource management sucks. From their attitude, this would seem to normal for them, rather than the exception. I'd be saying no to them.

the_syco

JimiTime wrote: »

The real issue is that its a very petty, and seemingly very stupid stance that the company is taking. It doesn't actually matter what was promised or not promised in the interview btw, the company will actually hold all the cards regardless.

Sorry, I meant that if they were petty like this, it may be worth checking the benefits that you were promised at the interview actually exist.

=-=

Look at the money you'll loose, versus the money you'll gain to be honest. It's not nice what they did, but as said, they hold the cards. Agree with BostonB as well; what will they be like next time you book holidays?

Mr. Presentable

Here's how I read you OP.

You have holidays booked.

You take an interview.

You are offered a job

They want you not to take time off

You want to take time off

But you are not employed there yet (June 7th) so they offer you the choice - job or no job.

So, they owe you nothing. You are not employed by them and have no contract with them. There is no obligation on a business to honour anything that pre-exists the employment which might affect it. You likewise do not have any obligation to work those days - you are still not an employee.

Long/short: If you insist on the holiday you cannot have the job. You personal circumstance is no concern of theirs (remember, you are not an employee yet).

Mr. Presentable

the_syco wrote: »

Sorry, I meant that if they were petty like this, it may be worth checking the benefits that you were promised at the interview actually exist.

=-=

Look at the money you'll loose, versus the money you'll gain to be honest. It's not nice what they did, but as said, they hold the cards. Agree with BostonB as well; what will they be like next time you book holidays?

None of this matters if the OP hasn't been contracted as an employee yet.

Unsinnig

NicoleL88 wrote: »

What I want to know is do I have any legal rights? Do prospective employers have to honour holidays booked prior to you accepting a job with them? Please also take into account the fact that I was told these dates were ok, was then told to change them, and was then told I couldn't have anything at all.

You're being serious aren't you?
You have to be, as April 1st was quite a while back.

Welcome to the welfare state, where we're all victims and owed something for free!
<sarcasm starts here>
What kind of sick individual would want to offer someone a job and deny them a holiday? Don't they know that a tan a few photos of venice are more important than a few euro in the bank???? Disgusting! You should name and shame this sick company.
<sarcasm ends here>

I believe the colloquial term is "face palm", followed by an audible sigh.

Roll on WW3... please... we need it to trim off the dead leaves in the garden of life. Ahem.

BostonB

The answer isn't always "take the money". It is sometimes though. In 20yrs time will you look back and say I'm glad I took that job where they treated everyone like crap instead of going to Venice. Thats not being flippant. It maybe a job that leads to amazing things and you'll say yes. We don't know the relative importance to the OP of either the job or the hoilday.

Babooshka

Unsinnig wrote: »

You're being serious aren't you?
You have to be, as April 1st was quite a while back.

Welcome to the welfare state, where we're all victims and owed something for free!
<sarcasm starts here>
What kind of sick individual would want to offer someone a job and deny them a holiday? Don't they know that a tan a few photos of venice are more important than a few euro in the bank???? Disgusting! You should name and shame this sick company.
<sarcasm ends here>

I believe the colloquial term is "face palm", followed by an audible sigh.

Roll on WW3... please... we need it to trim off the dead leaves in the garden of life. Ahem.

Ah ha ha. Yes and you vill nat smile in zee vurk place, you vill not make any frend-lee gestures tov-ards yur coll-eeeks und you vill remember who is un charge here. Ha ha ha hahahahah :eek:

I think you got your answers Nicole. Face palm, me hole.

Unsinnig

Oh, and before anybody pulls their hair out and wrings their hands in anguish over my comments, take a minute and look at this situation from the employers perspective.

You're all asking "if that's what they say and do now, what other dastardly things will they do in the future?"

What about asking "if this woman hasn't even started working here and she's already doing this kind of thing, with legal questions etc , over an effing holiday, why bother offering her a job in case she flips out over a dirty cup or something that stupid and decides to sue us into bankruptcy?"

I'd think, in the current economic climate, that a stable job would beat a holiday hands down. Sure holidays abroad are grand, but they're a perk, no matter how insanely rich or poor you are.

Welcome to the real world. It's not all roses and perfume like Oprah promised. Wait till you have kids and no job. Holidays in Venice? Life doesn't care about holidays in Venice.

Neither do I, frankly.

Unsinnig

Babooshka wrote: »

Ah ha ha. Yes and you vill nat smile in zee vurk place, you vill not make any frend-lee gestures tov-ards yur coll-eeeks und you vill remember who is un charge here. Ha ha ha hahahahah :eek:

I think you got your answers Nicole. Face palm, me hole.

Methinks you've missed the point completely.
If the holiday is a priority, take it. If having a job is a priority, take it. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it. That's life (he says smiling, enjoying his own)

Unsinnig

BostonB wrote: »

The answer isn't always "take the money". It is sometimes though. In 20yrs time will you look back and say I'm glad I took that job where they treated everyone like crap instead of going to Venice. Thats not being flippant. It maybe a job that leads to amazing things and you'll say yes. We don't know the relative importance to the OP of either the job or the hoilday.

Well put, wholly in agreement. Better than I could say, but I'm a bitter auld one

Babooshka

Unsinnig wrote: »

Methinks you've missed the point completely.
If the holiday is a priority, take it. If having a job is a priority, take it. Sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it. That's life (he says smiling, enjoying his own)

I didn't miss any point, and I find your replies very bitter. "Life doesn't care about holidays in Venice"...will you cop onto yourself, we're not back in Dickensian times, sounds like you wish we were though :p I mean, how dare she book a holiday before getting a job, and actually want to go on it :eek:

The girl asked for advice re any standing she may have considering they told her she was ok to take the holiday at the interview. Most people said no, she doesn't have a leg to stand on, because most people know that jack squat is what you're entitled to at an interview and for the first few months in any employment. We all know this.

Then most went onto give their opinion of how they'd feel having been told one thing and then another at offer time. Don't think anyone's missing anything and the question has been answered.

Captain Commie

just want to have something cleared up. during the phone and in-person interviews when you mentioned holiday, did they simply say "ok" or did they say something more along the lines of (ok, that wont be a problem)?

There is a VERY big difference between the two, if they indicated that there would not be a problem then they have no right to tell you to chose. However, as you are not an employee yet you have no right to the time off, unpaid or otherwise. Also if i were you (and i have been in this circumstance myself) I would have asked in the interview if you were successful for the job would the holidays be a problem.

I interviewed for a job about 22 months ago and during the interview they didnt ask about holidays etc etc, but when floor was opened for questions i stated that i was getting married in 6 weeks and would need 2 weeks off, I was told that was fine but they would be unpaid as i had only joined company. I was offered and took the job (and they actually paid the 2 weeks as a wedding present, ie didnt take it from my leave).

What im getting at is, when interviewing for a job when you know full well that you will need time off in the first couple of months for something like a holiday, you need to get confirmation at interview that you can have the time off, and from what i read above it seems you didnt get actual confirmation, therefore they are well within their rights to tell you to chose.

Your decision is an awkward one i'll admit, but you have to look at it this way, take the job and make money but lose out on the holiday, or take the holiday and have a great time but come back to nothing and no money.

mrsbyrne

NicoleL88 wrote: »

Yes we have and it can't be. My boyfriend can't afford to lose that money. He works for the same company and can't change the holiday dates he has booked. The point now is that they've told me three times those dates were fine, then changed their minds saying I can't have THOSE dates, and have again come back to me saying I can't have ANY time off at all.

MrsByrne, I'm not fond of the way you're phrasing this, I'm not looking for time off here and there and swanning off places, I'm looking for three days unpaid leave which they agreed to, which led to my boyfriend booking and paying for everything and then they changed their minds. This is completely unfair. It is a MASSIVE company with over 1,000 employees that are hiring new people every day. They won't miss me for three days.

I'll have no contact with HR or the recruitment agency one I start working there. And I'm not looking to start the job three days later, I will be starting on June 7th and need July 20th-22nd off like I stated several times before I was even offered the job.

nicolel88 take it from me, this argument/thread/query is dead in the water. you have no legislative right to the time off. end of story. there is no complaint you can make to the LRC or any other body under any of the employment law acts. saying its not fair and its not right etc. is all pointless. you have a choice you can take the job and forget about going to venice or go to venice and forget about the job. its a pity you didnt like my tone, i find that happens sometimes when people dont hear what they wanted to hear.

NicoleL88

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Here's how I read you OP.

You have holidays booked.

You take an interview.

You are offered a job

They want you not to take time off

You want to take time off

But you are not employed there yet (June 7th) so they offer you the choice - job or no job.

So, they owe you nothing. You are not employed by them and have no contract with them. There is no obligation on a business to honour anything that pre-exists the employment which might affect it. You likewise do not have any obligation to work those days - you are still not an employee.

Long/short: If you insist on the holiday you cannot have the job. You personal circumstance is no concern of theirs (remember, you are not an employee yet).

I thought I was being perfectly clear???
I had the holidays booked, I stated these dates three times, they said that it was fine and called to confirm it the third time. They're now completely revoking what they said. I signed a pre-contract at the interview which I'm pretty sure had those dates on it. I don't know how to get my hands on a copy. I accepted the job yesterday but said I would be doing all I could to sort this out as it was their fault.

I'm getting annoyed at the posters who are implying I'm putting swanning off to Venice over a "stable job". It's the principle of the matter now. I rang the Team Leader this morning who was very nice and said he would look into it and contact me asap.

HR bitch rang me and had an absolute freak out when I told her I was waiting to hear back from this guy and cut me off mid sentence and said "Well I'm going to contact ***** you had no purpose going to him". As well as this she said "I've given you 24 hours to decide (which she hasn't)... so you're turning down the job? Well you have decide now, we can't keep waiting for you... Who told you to contact the team leader? What's the employees name? We've been more than generous (Total joke)...

She was borderline abusive.

Edit: Mrs Byrne, its not about hearing what I want to hear. I'm saying I would expect a company to treat prospective employees with more respect than this. I'm waiting for a call back, its been an hour.

RedXIV

The question here though is do you really want to start rocking the boat in this company with all these people who are far more established than you, especially when your partner is employed there too?

I know its irritating OP but you pushing and shoving against everyone and making enemies at the start of your employment is not a great way to go into a job.

NicoleL88

I realize that but I'm not trying to make enemies. They told me one thing, now I'm being told another. 99 companies out of 100 will honour pre-booked holidays seeing as a lot of money has obviously been spent.

I'm simply doing all I can to try to figure this out. It's this HR cow that's being absolutely horrible and not even trying to smooth the situation over.

Mr. Presentable

NicoleL88 wrote: »

I realize that but I'm not trying to make enemies. They told me one thing, now I'm being told another. 99 companies out of 100 will honour pre-booked holidays seeing as a lot of money has obviously been spent.

I'm simply doing all I can to try to figure this out. It's this HR cow that's being absolutely horrible and not even trying to smooth the situation over.

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

BostonB

TBH it should like they have a Power mad HR person. Perhaps the rest of the company isn't like that.

In my experience spend most of the time trying to find ways of justifying their existence.

NicoleL88

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

Ahh, I can't put off taking the offer for almost two months. She basically threatened me on the phone saying decide now or we'll get someone else, strange since I was told that I was being hired for my skills, experience and excellent interview.

And YES, the majority of companies DO honor pre-booked holidays.

the varg

Interesting thread.

Op you should be listening to what MrsBryne is telling you. Unfortunately you know the choice you have to make. The company even though they said it was fine to take the time, can change their minds, they don't owe you anything.
A little example..in my previous job I had a week in USA booked. I cleared it with my boss who said fine. Only problem was his brother who was a c*nt was also boss. When he heard he said no way too busy yada yada yada. Had to cancel :mad: All worked out well in the end, the b*llix made me redundant soon after the incident, I got a big payoff and now I got a better job:D
You have no legal comebacks or anything of that nature. You say 99 out of 100 companies would honour your holiday and yes your are right but that is goodwill, they do not have to honour holidays. Holiday leave(when it is taken) is at the employers discretion, as my example shows..
So you think you are in a sh*tty situ, yep you probably are but welcome to life. You choice is simple.
BTW word to wise you may not be aiming to make enemies but you sure ain't winning friends if you do decide to go to work for this company..
Good luck either way!

inforfun

Op,

You can try to convince them to give you your holidays but it would very much surprise me if they give in in the end.

5,6 years ago? Yes they probable would have because there were more jobs than people and lots of companies were already glad with someone who could tie his or her own shoelaces.
At the moment there is 450.000 out of a job and i am pretty sure that this company is convinced one of the 450.000 is just as skilled, experienced and capable of giving a great interview as you are.

You will be a winner here. But it will only be 1 price, either the holiday or the job.

Babooshka

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

You are really getting off on the wrong foot The correct thing would be for you to put off taking their job offer until you return from holiday. Calling future colleagues "cow" and "bitch" is not the way forward.

Oh, 99% of companies would certainly not honour prebooked holidays, regardless of money spent. There is no requirement on them to do so, and whether or not they pay for the time off they still have a cost implication put on them, which they should not have to bear.

A pre-contract is not a contract.

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.

Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it. But this current climate seems to be bringing the petty mindedness out of the woodwork in lots of places from what I am hearing, so they can lord it over employees and throw the "I don't have to, we're not bound by law to do it" line, without any understanding that there is a trust process involved and in getting the best out of your employees.

A secure and happy company will see that, same as any happy employee who is paid up to 5 o'clock will sometimes stay till 8 without expecting extra pay to make a deadline for the company. It's like any relationship, and sometimes honoring something without it being written law is practiced by both employees and employers. Good, "grown up" companies know this. Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday? People shouting "they don't have to give it to her" gets on my nerves, we know they don't have to, you have to look at it from a bigger picture than that to see how working relationships begin and grow.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

CiaranC

I cannot believe nobody has said this.

Tell them "Fair Enough", you accept that you cant have the leave. Work away, take their money. Work till the 19th of July, then quit. Give them a weeks notice if you are feeling generous.

You will probably even have found something else by then.

Companies are not people. They will use you for financial gain, with no thoughts to your "feelings". They owe you nothing. But this works both ways. You owe them nothing either.

NicoleL88

That was going to be my Plan B. Thanks Ciaran.

Mr. Presentable

Babooshka wrote: »

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.
Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

To be fair I didn't say it was a rarity, only that to say it was all but standard practice (99/100) is incorrect. I work in HR systems for organisations of all sizes across the island of Ireland and know of what I speak. Money and resources are tight in business at the moment and none can afford to be without key members.

As I said, the best solution is for the OP to postpone joining the company until she is free of other obligations. It would be a good compromise.

Compromise is a two way street - does not mean one person gets to do the taking and the other has to yield.

professore

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Here's how I read you OP.

You have holidays booked.

You take an interview.

You are offered a job

They want you not to take time off

You want to take time off

But you are not employed there yet (June 7th) so they offer you the choice - job or no job.

So, they owe you nothing. You are not employed by them and have no contract with them. There is no obligation on a business to honour anything that pre-exists the employment which might affect it. You likewise do not have any obligation to work those days - you are still not an employee.

Long/short: If you insist on the holiday you cannot have the job. You personal circumstance is no concern of theirs (remember, you are not an employee yet).

All true, but they are assholes. If you really need the job then take it but leave at the first available opportunity with the minimum of legal notice.

Babooshka

CiaranC wrote: »

I cannot believe nobody has said this.

Tell them "Fair Enough", you accept that you cant have the leave. Work away, take their money. Work till the 19th of July, then quit. Give them a weeks notice if you are feeling generous.

You will probably even have found something else by then.

Companies are not people. They will use you for financial gain, with no thoughts to your "feelings". They owe you nothing. But this works both ways. You owe them nothing either.

Spoken like a true HR Manager :D:D

mrsbyrne

Babooshka wrote: »

I agree on the name calling thing, it solves nothing at all.

But I beg to differ on your opinion about companies not honouring pre-booked holidays. Yes there is no requirement on them but lots do accomodate. I have experienced two jobs whereby I have had holidays booked and they did not have any problem with it. If they did have a problem I would have had to weigh it up of course, but I'd base my decision on both the circumstances of the company but also, and importantly their attitude towards the request in the first place. My boyfriend started a new job a couple of months back and needed time off, which was also agreed. It's not a rarity at all.

Most people are accomodating and will do what they can even if they're not bound by law to do it. But this current climate seems to be bringing the petty mindedness out of the woodwork in lots of places from what I am hearing, so they can lord it over employees and throw the "I don't have to, we're not bound by law to do it" line, without any understanding that there is a trust process involved and in getting the best out of your employees.

A secure and happy company will see that, same as any happy employee who is paid up to 5 o'clock will sometimes stay till 8 without expecting extra pay to make a deadline for the company. It's like any relationship, and sometimes honoring something without it being written law is practiced by both employees and employers. Good, "grown up" companies know this. Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday? People shouting "they don't have to give it to her" gets on my nerves, we know they don't have to, you have to look at it from a bigger picture than that to see how working relationships begin and grow.


I feel sorry for anyone who is managed by robots who can't see that much and I would try to avoid working under people like that at all costs.

i totally concur with you, but the OP asked from the get-go if she has any legal rights in this matter. she doesnt, i told her that, end of. Posts expressing support and sympathy maybe comforting and we all know that a good employer will try and accomadate a valued emploee were possible, but if the Team Leader decides to back the HR department up today there is nothing the employee can do about it. hopefully she will get a positive response from him/her, but if she doesnt, thems the breaks:(

inforfun

Babooshka wrote: »

Do you really think that this company who offered this person a job cannot survive without her for three days, and that the company or anyone in there will suffer to any great extent if she gets her holiday?

Survive? Probably.

But this company is hiring because they need someone and not just for the fun of it, right?
We entering the summer months where people go on holidays so i think that she might actually be really needed those 3 days to keep things running smooth.

A big part in OP's situation is also the time of the year.
I doubt, if this would be happening in october/november that there would be a problem for her to have those days off.

mrsbyrne

NicoleL88 wrote: »

That was going to be my Plan B. Thanks Ciaran.

how will you then avoid giving them as a reference?

Babooshka

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

To be fair I didn't say it was a rarity, only that to say it was all but standard practice (99/100) is incorrect. I work in HR systems for organisations of all sizes across the island of Ireland and know of what I speak. Money and resources are tight in business at the moment and none can afford to be without key members.

As I said, the best solution is for the OP to postpone joining the company until she is free of other obligations. It would be a good compromise.

Compromise is a two way street - does not mean one person gets to do the taking and the other has to yield.

I said it happens a lot. I am sure you know what you're talking about, but you said 99% of companies would not honour pre-booked holidays and the last two jobs I have had (in the last 3 years during this recession) did honour them so I must have just been extremely lucky then so, and my boyfriend, we must do the lotto this week so .

I know compromise is a two way street ...hence my example of staying late at work as lots of people do for no extra pay because they are in the habit of giving something unwritten as well. As I said, you have to look at the circumstances, the facts AND the behaviour and attitude and make a decision based on your own integrity after that.

Babooshka

inforfun wrote: »

Survive? Probably.

But this company is hiring because they need someone and not just for the fun of it, right?
We entering the summer months where people go on holidays so i think that she might actually be really needed those 3 days to keep things running smooth.

A big part in OP's situation is also the time of the year.
I doubt, if this would be happening in october/november that there would be a problem for her to have those days off.

Of course, but do they need someone or do they need the OP? That's the crux of it really. If you really wanted the specific person then you'd probably compromise. But if there were 25 thousand people out there with the same skills who weren't going on holidays then you'd pick one of them.
I guess that's why very specialised people in their field can dictate to companies moreso.

There's no right and wrong, only what's wrong for your own value system. If it was me personally I'd turn the job down as I'd feel they weren't the right people for me to work with if they couldn't understand I had my holiday booked before I committed to working for them. But that is just me and others won't see it that way.

CiaranC

mrsbyrne wrote: »

how will you then avoid giving them as a reference?

What? Shes only going to be working there for 2 months. She can say she was in Australia or South America like half the rest of the country. Also, no company will request a reference from your current employer if you are looking to move.

People here have some bizarre notions about obligations to companies. If this company (sounds like a multinational) hired her despite the fact that they were prepared to give themselves the headache of dealing with this holiday situation, she'll get another handy enough.

Also, I wouldnt worry about "notice periods" either.