Slipstreaming Etiquette

doc1976

Hey all,

I'm just wondering what are the views on slipstreaming. I've had the same guy slipstream me on the way home by the grand canal up to the harolds cross area for the last 3 days.

I pulled over to let him pass me today as I was p**ssed off dragging his ass all the way up there.

Is there any etiquette for this or do you politely tell them to piss off??

DOC

briano

HTFU and drop them I believe is the correct approach.

bcmf

as above or return the 'favour' several days in a row.

GTDolanator

i do it but i like looking at asses,i love to draft busses too

spyderski

The best deterrent involves snot. I shall say no more

irishmotorist

I hate those selfish lazy bastids. This has worked for me on occasion before. Stop pedalling for about 5 or 10 seconds and unclip your left foot and make it look like you're about to stop. When they pass, jump back on their tail and watch them try to be better than you

Khannie

I was wondering the etiquette on this myself. I don't think it would bother me. What do you all dislike about it?

I slipstreamed a guy who overtook me for a while on the way into town then went to take a turn up front (it seemed polite). I kept the same pace. He didn't seem interested. It was my first time slipstreaming. Noticeable reduction in effort.

Chips Lovell

Jam on the brakes. That'll learn them.

Seriously though, it's not like they're slowing you down. What's the problem?

Plastik

It just feels harder when there's someone sucking my wheel. Goddammit I was coming up Sandymount at 32/33kph handily enough this morning into a bit of a headwind when I caught the shadow of someone on my wheel out the corner of my eye. All of a sudden it felt like I had to work to keep going at that pace!!

irishmotorist

Khannie wrote: »

What do you all dislike about it?

When they're taking advantage of my effort without reciprocating, I find it annoying. Also, depending on how close they are, they can block the full benefit of any tailwinds that might be coming your way making sure that you get no respite from that headwind.

el tonto

el tonto wrote: »

Seriously though, it's not like they're slowing you down. What's the problem?

Never understood people's problem with it either. I'm reminded of the time I was on my way back into Cork from Ballincollig via the straight road after a training spin. For those that don't know Cork the straight road is exactly that. Long, straight and with little shelter if you're unfortunate enough to have a headwind. Some guy that looked like he was commuting on a road bike (had a backpack on) sat on my wheel the whole way in.

It was a mutually beneficial arrangement. He was just getting from A to B and wanted some shelter from the wind. I was training and felt motivated to ride fast to show off my awe inspiring power . When we got to town we went our seperate ways and he shouted out a thank you! No problems at all!

Beasty

Khannie wrote: »

Noticeable reduction in effort.

Done "properly" (eg GB track team quality), no 2 in a chain saves 30%, and no 3 saves 45% compared to the guy at the front

(I didn't pass you between Lusk and Blakes Cross around 7.20 this morning did I Khannie? - I was wearing a long-sleeved red top)

Khannie

Beasty wrote: »

Done "properly" (eg GB track team quality), no 2 in a chain saves 30%, and no 3 saves 45% compared to the guy at the front

WOW! That is impressive.

Beasty wrote: »

(I didn't pass you between Lusk and Blakes Cross around 7.20 this morning did I Khannie? - I was wearing a long-sleeved red top)

Wasn't me. I couldn't cycle in today. My back is in ribbons at the moment. I shouldn't have cycled Tuesday to rest it up, but my beautiful new bike arrived on Monday so I just had to. I'm paying the price the last two days.

Khannie

irishmotorist wrote: »

When they're taking advantage of my effort without reciprocating, I find it annoying.

So just out of interest: In a headwind scenario if the person slipstreaming took their turn up front you'd be ok with it?

Phil2me

Cavendish has made a career out of it

Inquitus

Phil2me wrote: »

Cavendish has made a career out of it

Is it fair to say anyone in replica HTC kit can commuter slipstream, and everyone else can GTFO?

Beasty

Khannie wrote: »

WOW! That is impressive.

Just to further illustrate the benefits of drafting. On my commute home today I averaged about 240w without any drafting benefit.

They tracked one guy in the TdF who averaged less than 100w over a complete flat stage (85w IIRC - it was mentioned by the commentators during the race last year). Sitting in the middle of a large group you basically get pulled along by the moving airstream created by the peleton

kumate_champ07

Beasty wrote: »

Done "properly" (eg GB track team quality), no 2 in a chain saves 30%, and no 3 saves 45% compared to the guy at the front

how much of that % comes from the aero helmets?
Also they'd be indoors, still pretty dramtic difference.

kumate_champ07

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

how much of that % comes from the aero helmets?
Also they'd be indoors, still pretty dramtic difference.

Well aero helmets benifit you when you're on the front as well, so that wouldn't alter the relative reduction in effort between being at the front and being in the slipstream.

To be honest, subjectively, it feels like even more than 30-40%. You could be in a bunch in a race doing 45 -50 kph and feel comfortable, able to eat, drink and chat with those around you. Doing the same speed on your own off the front you very quickly find yourself eating the bar tape.

When moving in behind someone in a race situation at speed the reduction in effort feels similar to being on an exercise bike and switching from high resistance to medium.

ROK ON

Wheelsucking is great.
Last Sat I did a sportif. 100k with 1 huge climb. 3h 28 m.
Wheelsucked for about 50k.

Two days ago I did 84km on my own. 2 shallow climbs. 3h 29m.

I repeat what I said. Wheelsucking is great.

Beasty

The 45% is for a line - you can get more in a bunch

Indoors is largely irrelevant - you may have a headwind or a tailwind outdoors (or indeed it could be pretty still). It's the relative impact I am referring to.

In terms of helmet, I suspect the front rider gets more of a benefit than those behind - it's more effective in higher wind speeds and the guy at the front is bearing the brunt of the wind

rab!dmonkey

The rider in front gains a slight advantage from having a wheelsucker. Having a rider follow close behind allows the air you disturb follow a straight line over the next rider, rather than running down your back and generating turbulence.

Commuting through the Phoenix Park on a single-speed mountain bike, I love it when someone on skinny tires turns up. I generally overtake when they slow down for the s-turns before road crossings, not that I stay in front for long. If I was on a similar bike, I'd put some effort in to do a turn in front, but as it is, I'd just cause an obstruction.

brayblue24

spyderski wrote: »

The best deterrent involves snot. I shall say no more

Beaten to it.

Phl**m works too.

I shall say no more

irishmotorist

Khannie wrote: »

So just out of interest: In a headwind scenario if the person slipstreaming took their turn up front you'd be ok with it?

Yes, absolutely. It saves energy and the interaction gives a nice change to the repetative daily cycle. In fact, on the rare occasion that it does happen, I tend to put myself at the front than my 'colleague' because I don't want to be a NET hanger on.

Beasty

TBH it wouldn't bother me too much if someone tried to hang onto my wheel for my full 23km commute - it would probably mean I would just push a bit harder and get a better workout.

It's not very often that I come across cyclists of similar speed though, and when I have we've tended to take turns, increasing our overall speed probably allowing both of us to get a bit more out of it.

helimachoptor

The politics of the bike

Khannie

brayblue24 wrote: »

Beaten to it.

Phl**m works too.

I shall say no more

That's disgusting. I'd say you're likely to get a hiding from that one day. You're certainly taking a chance by gobbing on someone. edit: Also, I'm pretty sure it's considered assault.

BostonB

Theres a flip side of this when commuting. I don't cycle that fast, but occasionally you come up behind someone who is just slightly slower, and so because you want to stay at your pace which you happy with, you overtake and get back in the groove. Then you realise that at every opportunity other commuter, is trying to get ahead, they, break lights, cross greens and footpaths to get ahead. Generally they up their pace to stay ahead. On those occasions I'm happy to tuck in behind and be dragged home.

Idleater

Khannie wrote: »

That's disgusting. I'd say you're likely to get a hiding from that one day. You're certainly taking a chance by gobbing on someone. edit: Also, I'm pretty sure it's considered assault.

I'm fairly sure, that (just like in racing) one actually ejects spit/snot sideways as opposed to directly at someone. Wind direction and speed take particles as they may.

On topic, I had an interesting commute through town there a week or so ago (I don't normally traverse the city) and one thing I noticed is that fixie riders don't like you taking your turn up front in the same gear that they are running and end up dropping them/making them work to keep up.

Fair play to yer man, he bust a gut to stay on my wheel and then unfortunately he had to turn left a short while later.

cdaly_

irishmotorist wrote: »

When they're taking advantage of my effort without reciprocating, I find it annoying. Also, depending on how close they are, they can block the full benefit of any tailwinds that might be coming your way making sure that you get no respite from that headwind.

I suspect this doesn't matter at all. As drag is an exponential function of airspeed and, it a tailwind you would either be in still air or be going fast enough to convert it back to a headwind, the net loss from a wheelsucker is neglibible.

Lusk Doyle

Do we not cycle to get stronger and better? If he/she wants to drag off you then let them - you get the moral victory knowing that you are a brave knight slaying the dragon that is a headwind for the benefit of your followers!

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger...

C'mon you pu$$ies, MAN UP TO FCUK!

OldPeculier

BostonB wrote: »

I'm happy to tuck in behind and be dragged home.

I just couldn't do it! The competitive racer in me wouldn't allow it, I'd just bust a gut to get ahead and try staying ahead!

I find it frustrating though to have to constantly overtake someone because they skip in front of you at lights, or even worse, break lights to get ahead.

daragh_

OldPeculier wrote: »

I find it frustrating though to have to constantly overtake someone because they skip in front of you at lights, or even worse, break lights to get ahead.

That's the best bit. Destroy yourself to catch up, then cruise past as if you haven't even tried.

irishmotorist

cdaly_ wrote: »

I suspect this doesn't matter at all. As drag is an exponential function of airspeed and, it a tailwind you would either be in still air or be going fast enough to convert it back to a headwind, the net loss from a wheelsucker is neglibible.

My feeling on it is that when it's windy and you get an occasional gust from behind, it gives the legs a few seconds break. If there's somebody up your hole then they'll be positively freewheeling. There's no science behind this claim, just how it feels to me.

Moflojo

If you're commuting in full lycra on a full carbon road bike and you get draughted by someone on a POS hybrid, you're doing it wrong!

If you're commuting in full lycra on a full carbon road bike and you draught behind someone on a POS hybrid, you're doing it wrong!

Everything else is fair game I say!

cdaly_

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Do we not cycle to get stronger and better? If he/she wants to drag off you then let them - you get the moral victory knowing that you are a brave knight slaying the dragon that is a headwind for the benefit of your followers!

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nig49jCC14

poochiem

never happens to me - I do draught the motorbikes along the canal on the long stretch towards harolds cross bridge

manwithaplan

Drop them or die trying. Normal commuter racing etiquette doesn't apply when you are being drafted. You are permitted to get out of the saddle and pant like thomas the tank engine.

doozerie

Khannie wrote:

I was wondering the etiquette on this myself. I don't think it would bother me. What do you all dislike about it?

I can think of at least two problems with it off the top of my head:

1) The person doing the slipstreaming can be a danger to the rider in front. I've had a couple of incidents of people on my wheel running into the back of my bike when I stopped at a red light (apparently they either didn't look beyond my wheel or felt that traffic lights don't apply to them). A few months back I had a guy on my wheel push me into the back of a parked van when I braked hard as a car pulled into my lane. He didn't seem to brake at all and instead used me as his buffer, which was charming. So, apparently awareness of your surroundings is optional for at least some people that choose to slipstream.

2) When looking over your shoulder to see if it is safe to overtake an obstruction ahead, you sometimes find that the person on your wheel impedes your view of the road behind them, usually 'cos they pull out to the right of your wheel when you look back in some misguided effort to appear as if they are not really slipstreaming at all and are, in fact, fookin' deadly riders that have no need to sponge off the effort of others. At times I've found myself caught between the choice of risking there being no traffic coming up behind and overtaking the obstacle ahead, or hauling on the brakes for fear that I'll get mashed if I pull out. And hauling on the brakes in that scenario brings us back to problem 1) above.

So to those who suggest that the rider in front should just HTFU and grin and bear it, here is another perspective: the person doing the slipstreaming should just HTFU and either cycle on their own or put themselves as the rider in front rather than lounging about behind.

My comments apply mainly to commuting, incidentally. In something like an organised ride (sportive/randonee/whatever) slipstreaming is pretty much to be expected within groups. You'd hope in that setting though that people would be aware of their own bike handling skills, be they limited or otherwise, and make sure that they don't put the rider in front in danger by their actions (e.g. taking out the rider in front by piling into their back wheel for no reason other than stupidity). Some people seem to have an exaggerated sense of their own bike handling ability though, unfortunately, and get the balance of fun versus safety wrong.

oflahero

I don't mind it, but if I become aware of a drafter I start to call the holes, road surface, etc. as if I'm group riding. It's the equivalent of patronisingly patting the drafter on the head.

BostonB

Its a fair point that people commuting are likely to do something unpredictable and being close to them, is a bad idea as you'll go into the back of them if they stop for some reason. In my case its more that they are killing themselves to stay in front, but I keep catching them unintentionally. Then just as go to pull past they get up out of the saddle to stay ahead. For another 100m till you catch them again. Constantly overtaking someone who keeps breaking lights, jumping, pavements, cutting junctions, corners to get ahead is dangerous in traffic. If I drop back they slow, if overtake, they kill themselves (and maybe me) to get past again. Going up the canal or the park, lots of cyclists are in groups at peak time. Almost impossible not have someone in front and behind.

Khannie

doozerie wrote: »

I can think of at least two problems with it off the top of my head:

They're both fair points. Personally I wouldn't consider slipstreaming close to the city for those very reasons (also because the thing that slows you the most is likely to be traffic lights) but the vast majority of my commute is along stretches where there are no traffic lights / zero stopping. On that part of my commute I'd be happy to slipstream / be slipstreamed.

brayblue24

Khannie wrote: »

That's disgusting. I'd say you're likely to get a hiding from that one day. You're certainly taking a chance by gobbing on someone. edit: Also, I'm pretty sure it's considered assault.

OK fair enough but I'm not saying I deliberately spit on people-I don't, and you're right that is disgusting. But show me any cyclist who can say they have never had to spit at some stage. Hand on heart I don't know any, Dunno bout you....

Chartsengrafs

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Do we not cycle to get stronger and better? If he/she wants to drag off you then let them - you get the moral victory knowing that you are a brave knight slaying the dragon that is a headwind for the benefit of your followers!

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger...

C'mon you pu$$ies, MAN UP TO FCUK!

Indeed. Sometimes motorbikes draft behind me. :cool:

tyler71

Plastik wrote: »

It just feels harder when there's someone sucking my wheel. Goddammit I was coming up Sandymount at 32/33kph handily enough this morning into a bit of a headwind when I caught the shadow of someone on my wheel out the corner of my eye. All of a sudden it felt like I had to work to keep going at that pace!!

I'm not an expert but I've read a few commentaries where a team leader has sent a domestique out to a breakaway to 'bring him back'. I've never really understood how this works, is it pyschological or it there an actual physical reason for it?

sy

tyler71 wrote: »

I'm not an expert but I've read a few commentaries where a team leader has sent a domestique out to a breakaway to 'bring him back'. I've never really understood how this works, is it pyschological or it there an actual physical reason for it?

How would you feel if a guy sits on your wheel for 50km and then breezes past you in the last 100 metres. Kills your enthusiasm to continue with your attack so you sit up....

Lusk Doyle

sy wrote: »

How would you feel if a guy sits on your wheel for 50km and then breezes past you in the last 100 metres. Kills your enthusiasm to continue with your attack so you sit up....

Does that answer the OP???

All sorts of reasons - I can't help out cos I have a man up the road with a chance of a stage win, im going to attack later and having a team member up there to slipstream off will help, all very tactical.

There are more reasons im sure.

_sheep

Thought of this thread today on my cycle. Cycling the road between Thurles and Templemore I slowly reel in a guy and overtake him giving the usual nod and then he sticks to my back wheel for the next few km's which is no problem, its windy and I would do the same thing.

Couple of minutes into it he slightly rubs my tire from being too close and I get pissy and tell him stay back a bit so its safe - not 2 bloody minutes later he slightly rubs my tire again and shouts sorry - so i tell him to either overtake me or back off as this is an accident waiting to happen.

I put my head down and push a bit harder but with the headwind its tough going - I look back a few minutes later and he's still on my wheel. I spot a pothole just up ahead and decide to be a bit of a prick, I head straight for it getting out of the way at the last second barely missing it. Guess who didn't miss it.

brayblue24

brayblue24 wrote: »

OK fair enough but I'm not saying I deliberately spit on people-I don't, and you're right that is disgusting. But show me any cyclist who can say they have never had to spit at some stage. Hand on heart I don't know any, Dunno bout you....

Snot rockets FTW.

number9111

_sheep wrote: »

Thought of this thread today on my cycle. Cycling the road between Thurles and Templemore I slowly reel in a guy and overtake him giving the usual nod and then he sticks to my back wheel for the next few km's which is no problem, its windy and I would do the same thing.

Couple of minutes into it he slightly rubs my tire from being too close and I get pissy and tell him stay back a bit so its safe - not 2 bloody minutes later he slightly rubs my tire again and shouts sorry - so i tell him to either overtake me or back off as this is an accident waiting to happen.

I put my head down and push a bit harder but with the headwind its tough going - I look back a few minutes later and he's still on my wheel. I spot a pothole just up ahead and decide to be a bit of a prick, I head straight for it getting out of the way at the last second barely missing it. Guess who didn't miss it.

that seems incredibly dangerous to me.. worse than what the chap behind had done imo

Lusk Doyle

I agree. :mad: