Piracy less harmfull than Gamestop?

folan

theres an interesting article by a dev from Fable3 (Mike West) on eurogamer

whats interesting is that while he does target pirates, he still makes the point that

"For us it's probably a no-lose even with piracy as it is," shrugged West. "But, as I say, second-hand sales cost us more in the long-run than piracy these days."

I try my best to buy second hand games these days, but at the same time, the prices of a new game really make that hard, especially back when i was in college and hardly had enough cash to eat for a month.

scum01

Yea i read somewhere that its a common complaint of developers and game studios.

What they're doing now is including activation codes in new titles that unlocks specific game content and can only be used once. So if you buy it second hand you cant get the full usability of the game! (that is unless you pay for your own activation code)

Personally i buy as many games 2nd hand as possible (unless its a title i cant wait for and they are very few and far between!) for the same reason that its just too expensive for new games! E60 for a new game or 2 second hand titles for that price? decision is easy!

Penn

Most new games are €50 these days, bar limited editions and the like. Then most 2nd hand games of newer titles are still around €35-€40 anyway for the first few months.

I prefer buying new to be honest. Admittedly, a lot of the time I buy new it might be with store credit after trading in games or dvds, but if I feel like I'm going to get my moneys worth, I'll normally buy new.

rizzla

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

Penn

rizzla wrote: »

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

But it's a lot easier and more commonplace to buy second hand than pirated

folan

plus a second hand game can be sold several times over the course of its life time. that initial sale is there but the remaining sales are as good to the dev as piracy.

Varik

rizzla wrote: »

I buy new whenever I can.

I always bring up the point. A second hand game must at first be bought new, so there is an initial sale with money going to the dev's. Whereas more often than not there is no initial sale with a pirated game.

Same as if you gave it to a friend or as a hand me down to some relative, but for used games their is money being exchanged that is not going to the devs or publishers.

RedXIV

and a second hand game could be sold 3 or 4 times.

Personally, If I can, I like to buy new, but not when games first come out. For example, I decided I really wanted FFXIII when it first came out and splashed out 60 quid on the collectors edition. Could pick the game up for less than 20 online now.

I've bought oodles of second hand games simply because they are priced <€10, very few new games will compare to that in price. Now, I've the patience to wait for the games to lose the new-ish shine before picking them up for less than half the original price

calex71

Hmmmm I do buy a fair few used games, but never anything that costs more than 5-15 euro. So to be that price the game has to be out a good while. I either pick up a game on release day or wait until I can pick it up cheap online / in a sale / it drops in price in HMV etc.

Any other company I would have a certain degree of sympathy for, but Lionshead can F right off, after even failing to acknowledge let alone patch the myriad of game breaking bugs brought into Fable 3 by the traitors keep dlc. They will never see another cent of my money. :mad:

They also seem to forget that in most cases people are trading games for new, which actually helps sales in a way.

Most new games cost in the region of €50+ when they are released in this country (on a recent trip to Portugal I was astounded to see that new games there were in the region of €60-€70). I would much rather wait to purchase the secondhand game for cheaper, than to wait for the new version to decrease in price, which sometimes could take months.

It just makes more sense for me financially, regardless of who gets the money - I'm making a saving.

rizzla

Barrington wrote: »

But it's a lot easier and more commonplace to buy second hand than pirated

Yes but every second hand game on the shelf was at one time a new game which generated something for the devs.

Varik wrote: »

Same as if you gave it to a friend or as a hand me down to some relative, but for used games their is money being exchanged that is not going to the devs or publishers.

As opposed to piracy, where when someone downloads a game nothing is going to the devs too.

folan

rizzla wrote: »

As opposed to piracy where an ISO can only be downloaded once?!?

I understand what you mean, but my point was actually that the purchase was there in the first place. the game being sold second hand several more times is about as useful to the devs as being pirated 7 times and bought once.

rizzla

Devs need the Gamestops though, they don't need piracy. The second hand market keeps the Gamestops ticking over, which gives the shelf space for the new games and the hardware. It's a vicious cycle. But Piracy is no way less harmful than Gamestop.

folan

rizzla wrote: »

Devs need the Gamestops though, they don't need piracy. The second hand market keeps the Gamestops ticking over, which gives the shelf space for the new games and the hardware. It's a vicious cycle. But Piracy is no way less harmful than Gamestop.

great point. one really is a necessary evil, the other is just stealing, though at a certain point they become almost the same.

its interesting to see how devs see it though. Ive spent a long time defending dlcs and the like for this reason, though its often counter productive for them (as Calex71 points out).

Jet Black

Three reasons I would buy new games.
If its coming from a dev I know has a good history. The likes of valve, considering the money is going back to making excellent quality games.
If its a game in a franchise like battlefield or cod where I know I'll get a decent amount of entertainment from it.
Or if theres a playbale demo so I can try before i buy, I can usually tell in a couple of minutes if a game will be worth buying. Apart from that I wait until I can get them second hand or cheaper.

Kintarō Hattori

Just price games fairly and that will go a long way to tackling the problem. Games costing €70 euro is insane. Also huge variations in price really don't encourage folk to buy the game- just have a look at Steam. The price differences there between currencies is shocking.

Piracy really does need to be tackled but trying to put a stop to the 2nd games market will only pee gamers off in the long run. The 2nd market has been around as long as gaming itself and is well established. A lot of my games are bought new but I do like to go into the shops for a browse and picking up something second hand and cheaply.

Perhaps the publishing companies could seek out a slice of the sale of a game second hand. In turn they could give the shops more exclusive content, work out some sort of loyalty programme. I don't know, it needs to be creative and I'm not the creative type!

Penn

What standard games are costing €70 though? Most games are €45-€55, usually €50. If you're paying €70, that's probably for limited editions, or games that come with a free item. But you don't have to buy that if you don't want to. I haven't seen a new standard issue game costing more than €55 in ages, and they're even cheaper online.

Kintarō Hattori

I don't go into the shops too often so perhaps my memory is a little hazy but I do seem to remember games easily costing €70 or thereabouts, perhaps that has been a while ago though.

RedXIV

COD:MW was 60-70 for ages as I recall?

collector's editions are one of the best tools in a Dev's arsenal against second-hand games. every now and again I'll see a collectors edition with something cool (MW2's night vision goggles come to mind ) and I'll have to get that new.

eco2live

Games are 45 to 55 new everywhere now. Good price for some but not for others. The amount of hours you get with COD, fighting games or football games is huge with online play.

I think what they should do is offer cheaper download versions of the games after a certain period. No resale value, no media etc. Just limit the user account to a maximum of say 2 consoles at a time. Each console has a unique hardware id.

Keep using the online codes that come free with the new versions and discounted download version. This would maximize the revenue going directly to the developer.

They need to compete with second hand games. This would address piracy and second hand sales to a certain extent. You will never wipe it out fully and a lot of people pirating games would not have bought them anyway so they always over estimate the losses. Same for films etc. Just because sombody would download a movie does not mean that they would have spent 20 quid to see it.

Jet Black

Haven't seen regular games for €70 since console launches. Have perfect dark zero and it was about €75 for it. MW2 was €60 in Irish stores. Picked it up a little cheaper online.
Some devs are giving extra content with new games and not charging extra. Thats another way to make people buy new, giving something for nothing.

Grumpypants

I was in world of wonders and they had games for €69.99 and not even brand new ones either stuff like Army of 2 that you can buy new in other shops for about 15 euro.

Developers are looking at the 2nd hand sales as sales lost, but they are ignoring the massive increase in new game sales thanks to people being able to trade in.

Just look at the LA Noire thread and see the amount of people opting for the 3 games 3 euro Gamestop deal. I know i used it to get brink last week, ill then trade in Brink to get LA Noire tomorrow. If that offer was not there i simply would not have bought Brink and just waited for LA Noire. Trading got the Brink developers an extra sale, but when my copy is sold they won't look at it as an extra sale to them it will be one potential sale lost, ignoring the fact that without the 2nd hand market they would not have gotten my sale in the first place.

It helps smaller developers as people are more likely to take a risk on smaller games.

marco_polo

Grumpypants wrote: »

I was in world of wonders and they had games for €69.99 and not even brand new ones either stuff like Army of 2 that you can buy new in other shops for about 15 euro.

Developers are looking at the 2nd hand sales as sales lost, but they are ignoring the massive increase in new game sales thanks to people being able to trade in.

Just look at the LA Noire thread and see the amount of people opting for the 3 games 3 euro Gamestop deal. I know i used it to get brink last week, ill then trade in Brink to get LA Noire tomorrow. If that offer was not there i simply would not have bought Brink and just waited for LA Noire. Trading got the Brink developers an extra sale, but when my copy is sold they won't look at it as an extra sale to them it will be one potential sale lost, ignoring the fact that without the 2nd hand market they would not have gotten my sale in the first place.

It helps smaller developers as people are more likely to take a risk on smaller games.

That is a valid point, but for every person with a purchasing pattern like you there is quite likely to be someone else who almost exclusively buys second hand games. Also in your scenario the Brink developer gets a new sale, but what about the developers of the three traded in games?

TheDoc

Hence why more and more games are required to be activated online to play through PSN or Xbox Live.

I'm not pushed either way, I don't buy alot of second hand games, I buy mostly brand new.

There has been plenty of noise recently across various articles of how Game devs and publishers are pretty much loosing heart seeing as how second hand game sales is a massive loss of potential earnings, whilst retailers are making their most profit from the second hand sales market.

I went into gamestop yesterday with a friend looking to trade in the new Fight Night Champaion, they offered him €18, it retails €50 new and the second hand price is €45

He asked why was he being ripped and the guy in store gave a pretty bollox excuse and then we left.

I dont genuinely know why anyone actually trades through gamestop...

Somewhere like Adverts.ie or Ebay would get your games better value..

I guess whilst people are uninformed, lazy and just ignorant we will continue to be ripped : /

And btw, Smyths, if you didnt know, has an offer now ( atleast in the airsode branch) when you buy a new game, you can return it within 10 days and get your money back less a fiver. So basically like renting. Its not a bad offer and then they put the game out second hand.

But atleast you get proper value back.

Re: the three games for three euro deal

That is an interesting but possibly irrelevant point. Yes, you are purchasing the game, but for €3, rather than the €49 you would have normally paid. While they are getting a new game sale, I can't imagine the devs making any money from it as such.

Unless Gamestop give the devs their usual share of when the game would have cost €49?

RedXIV

Deleted User wrote: »

Re: the three games for three euro deal

That is an interesting but possibly irrelevant point. Yes, you are purchasing the game, but for €3, rather than the €49 you would have normally paid. While they are getting a new game sale, I can't imagine the devs making any money from it as such.

Unless Gamestop give the devs their usual share of when the game would have cost €49?

Gamestop have to pay the correct price for the game to the publisher even if they sell it for €3. The revenue model is dependant on the fact that the 3 games you trade in will be worth more than the difference between the game you are buying RRP and €3

RedXIV

RedXIV wrote: »

Gamestop have to pay the correct price for the game to the publisher even if they sell it for €3. The revenue model is dependant on the fact that the 3 games you trade in will be worth more than the difference between the game you are buying RRP and €3

Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't too sure if the publishers were getting the correct amount or not.

RedXIV

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying that, I wasn't too sure if the publishers were getting the correct amount or not.

Only know that from speaking to the Sony rep in store when I used to work for Nintendo

We were only allowed talk on breaks when our branded clothes weren't on show

Royale with Cheese

Have hardly ever bought any second hand games. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the prices never seem that competitive. It's usually only a little bit extra to buy it brand new.

cython

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

Have hardly ever bought any second hand games. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places but the prices never seem that competitive. It's usually only a little bit extra to buy it brand new.

Even funnier is when you go to pick up an older game, and the second hand one is actually more expensive than a brand new copy! Nearly encourages me to buy new games in other situations too if just because second hand would be rewarding that level of stupidity/pricing incompetence!

Kaneda_

I but mostly new games.If i see some older used titles cheap i usually snap them up ( recently got The Orange Box for a fiver in Xtra vision ).

I dont think used games a bad thing for the devs or the industry at all,used games have been around for as long as i can remember and still plenty of new titles and sequels are pumped out every year - so is it that big a problem for the industry?

tman

Kaneda_ wrote: »

I dont think used games a bad thing for the devs or the industry at all,used games have been around for as long as i can remember and still plenty of new titles and sequels are pumped out every year - so is it that big a problem for the industry?

Back in the days of the SNES there were only a select few shops selling used games, the preowned business was nowhere near the scale that it's at today. Places like Game wouldn't have dreamed of selling scruffy used stock at the time.
In most game shops today, the amount of preowned games on the shelves far outnumber the new...

I for one applaud people like EA for trying out online passes and the like, but sadly most people see it as them being a bunch of greedy scumbags, when in fact the game shops are the true ***** here!

jill_valentine

As somebody above pointed out, it's the preowned business that's actually keeping game stores in business. Without it, devs would lose that platform from which to sell their new titles, which is why they've never aggressively pursued the shops for doing this even though legally they probably could.

I usually buy preowned, but when I do buy new, I usually trade a few things in against it to soften the blow. So I end up occasionally buying new games that I wouldn't buy at all otherwise.

I don't play online at all, so EAs online activation code buggery is of no use to me, it turns me right off getting it new or second hand.

wnolan1992

I suppose it is true that Gamestop would cost dev's more than piracy, for consoles at least. I mean, unless you know someone who is selling pirated games, then it's not as simple as downloading a ROM and throwing it into the Xbox.

But, if there was no second hand trade, dev's would lose even more money. I bought my first GTA game second hand for about £5, and since then I've been buying nearly all of Rockstar's games new, because I get excited before the release knowing it'll probably be a good game. If I hadn't bought that game second hand then I probably wouldn't have bought most of the titles new that I have.

I also prefer buying new when I can, there's something nice about ripping off the plastic and breathing in the fresh scent of the manual...

And anyway, it's a little unreasonable for some dev's to expect us to shell out 50e for some of their back catalog. Say, for argument's sake, you wanted to go out and buy Fifa 09, is it fair to 50e for that, when you could get Fifa 11 for the same? (this is a very unlikely situation, but it's just to put that point out.)

Gummy Panda

I buy PC so this doesn't really affect me but when I bought for my ps3 it would be new.

The market is in a weird stage were devs and publishers are trying to crawl back power from shops. I can see the free2play model being examined more and maybe brought onto consoles as a test title.

steviebg

As far as i'm concerned buying second hand games can help the sale of new game's. In my own case i bought COD4 second hand and loved it so i then bought both MW2 and BLOPS new! and i'll be buying MW3 new so 3 new sales for 1 second hand "loss". And i don't view second hand sales as a loss to the dev's because i would'nt have bought it new anyway.

cython

Weepsie wrote: »

Personally I'm surprised there never seems to have been a serious legal challenge to the selling of second hand games. The content of the disc is protected by copyright laws and is as far as i know therefor illegal to sell on or profit from in anyway. Perhaps because they let it slide for so long theyd be dismissed

Precedent and law akin to this in the US would probably make it very difficult, and may in fact explicitly permit the second hand trade. There may well be similar in place here and in other territories too, but to be honest, if it can't be prevented in the US, then the single biggest territory/jurisdiction (and therefore likely the most cost effective) is off the table, and it's of questionable worth to pursue it on a piecemeal basis across other jurisdictions.

krudler

I only ever buy new, if I want something thats been out a while zavvi and amazon and play all have games less than a year old for 15 quid and less these days, stuff like Alan Wake, Red Dead and MW2 are/were all 15 euro on all of those sites at one stage, itd cost more for a preplayed game. game shops make an abolsute fortune on preowned games and they constantly rip people off with them, ever notice that theres "preowned" new release games on the shelf the day after they're released, smells like shenanigans. Recently saw MK and Portal 2 , 49 new, 45 preowned, why would you bother? 4 quid saving on a game thats probably scratched to bits? no thanks.

And I'm way too finicky about my stuff to buy something that someones had their grubby mitts all over, factory sealed is preferable I dont like how gamestop store their games, at least game keeps sealed copies of new stuff behind the counter and give you those instead.

Retr0gamer

Whoever buys second hand from Gamestop is a mug. You can usually get the game cheaper brand new online. Games publishers shuld quit whining and basically deal with it. The second hand trade is here to stay and is perfectly legal. Maybe they should lower the price of their games and myybe they'll sell more.

As for the law it's the same that applies to books and films. You don't own the copyright when you buy it but do own the physical copy. You are free to sell on the physical copy and do with it as you like and aren't in violation of any copyright laws.

Overheal

What I found bemusing is that this only concerns console games, up to a point. The vast majority of retailers cant sell second hand PC games. It's only in the backwater shops you will find those. And many of them will fail to work because of activation keys. Who wants a used copy of World of Warcraft? But it's still there because the guy thinks he can score $5 off a shmuck.

Thing there is that at least in PC games you are paying for a License, not a Disc. While technically this might be the case with console games, it is not true in practice. The disc itself has it's own intrinsic value, with little to stop you from giving it to your friends. Or to stop the game rental industry.

But that's just one more thing to be thankful to PC Gaming for. While it may have it's pirates you have the benefit of ensuring all sales are considered New and go to the developer.

But I suppose then you have to ask yourself, which is more harmful to developer revenues: PC Piracy or Console second-hand trading and renting? We're left with our original question.

super_furry

Thing is, while developers might moan and whinge about pre-owned games, with the ability to trade in old games, I'd buy fewer new games.

The purchase of new games is funded by the trading of older games.

Helix

jill_valentine wrote: »

As somebody above pointed out, it's the preowned business that's actually keeping game stores in business. Without it, devs would lose that platform from which to sell their new titles, which is why they've never aggressively pursued the shops for doing this even though legally they probably could.

the tescos, asdas and walmarts of this world would ensure that wasnt the case

dreamers75

super_furry wrote: »

Thing is, while developers might moan and whinge about pre-owned games, with the ability to trade in old games, I'd buy fewer new games.

The purchase of new games is funded by the trading of older games.

So you are treating games as disposable which is what they have become on console.

No such thing as a game collection anymore, its shifted to must play "latest game".

Problem devs/publishers have is now shops buy 50 copies of a game rather than 100, shop knows it will sell the 50 then buy them back and % margin means: gamer buys game A for 60, sells it back for 40 uses 40 to buy game B on offer if you trade in 2, other gamer buys A for 40 and the cycle begins again.

So only 50 copies of the game are bought but the shop keeps the % of money coming back in from one initial buy and all others.

If i was a game dev i would look at the PC serial code and implement it on console. Instantly devalue any trade ins and make that 50 initial sell back to 100. The online pass isnt really going to work 100% only for some users.

amacachi

super_furry wrote: »

Thing is, while developers might moan and whinge about pre-owned games, with the ability to trade in old games, I'd buy fewer new games.

The purchase of new games is funded by the trading of older games.

I know quite a few people like that alright, pay 50 for a new release game and get 30 credit a week later for trading it in so they only end up 20 quid a go. If they were paying 50 at a time they'd be buying far less.

Helix

dreamers75 wrote: »

If i was a game dev i would look at the PC serial code and implement it on console. Instantly devalue any trade ins and make that 50 initial sell back to 100. The online pass isnt really going to work 100% only for some users.

its something that's coming imo

tman

amacachi wrote: »

I know quite a few people like that alright, pay 50 for a new release game and get 30 credit a week later for trading it in so they only end up 20 quid a go. If they were paying 50 at a time they'd be buying far less.

Why not just rent in that case... Seems like a bizarre way to waste €20!

amacachi

tman wrote: »

Why not just rent in that case... Seems like a bizarre way to waste €20!

Gives them longer to play if they need it. "A week later" in my post wasn't a hard limit.

Also to some people paying for games when they can be pirated seems like a bizarre way to waste money. Whatever about the logic behind it, it's something I notice happens a fair bit.

pablomakaveli

I've often bought a mix of new and used games. With new releases that im interested in ill buy brand new. The used games i buy are usually games that have been out for over a year and dont have new versions stocked in shops and i dont really buy used games for more than 20 euro either.

I dont see the point in buying a used copy of a new release though thats only 3 euro cheaper than the new copy. I'd rather have a brand new copy and pay the extra 3 euro.

I'd imagine its the selling of used copies of new releases thats affecting the market the most as the first few months are the games most profitable stage.

tonydude

I always buy new, but i keep my eye out for bargains. The likes of gamestop and game have very high prices for there pre owned old stock and id never buy from them especially Game ( new or old ). I prefer buying online, but having said that ill be paying a visit to Gamestop tomorrow to get portal 2 and la noire with the 3 game exchange

ShadowHearth

Barrington wrote: »

Most new games are €50 these days, bar limited editions and the like. Then most 2nd hand games of newer titles are still around €35-€40 anyway for the first few months.

I prefer buying new to be honest. Admittedly, a lot of the time I buy new it might be with store credit after trading in games or dvds, but if I feel like I'm going to get my moneys worth, I'll normally buy new.

in all fairness new game prices droped alot. normal 45eu limited edition 50eu. excluding cod which come for 60-70 when they come out.

when games were 70eu second hand was prety solid deal, but these days i buy second hand only if i find something for pennies and i cant be arsed to wait stuff from zavvi.

you can get brand new games cheaper on websites like zavvi.co.uk, so second hand games in gamestops have less apeal with all the activisation codes etc.

i have a feeling that gamestop is shooting themselfs in foot with all this 3eu deal. developers know about it, and will drop brand new price game lower or same price.

i could not see people buying second hand games for 5 quid cheaper then new one.

Helix

ShadowHearth wrote: »

developers know about it, and will drop brand new price game lower or same price.

i could not see people buying second hand games for 5 quid cheaper then new one.

1) developers dont set game prices

2) people have been buying second hand games for a fiver less than new games for years