Christianity, Nationalism, Republicanism and Patriotism suddenly seen as idiotic???

ImpossibleDuck

I've noticed this development over the past couple of years in Ireland especially with the decline of Catholicism.

Suddenly "intelligent" people see you as stupid if you are in any way religious, nationalist, republican(not specifically Irish, but International too) or Patriotic.

First with the religion, suddenly your "stupid" for following a religion - really bugs me.

But it's the rest that really annoy me, how if you are Nationalist, Republican or Patriotic you are looked down upon.

When I mention Republicanism, I am not specifically talking about Irish republicanism which in extreme cases is controversial. But republicanism is looked down upon SOO much in America. We've all seen the Americans making fun of republicans.

(i) Has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?

I have lost a few friends who just could not comprehend or accept my beliefs and opinions.

(ii) Do you think that friendships/relationships can only be successful if the other party share the same beliefs or outlook on the world/life?

El Weirdo

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

I've noticed this development over the past couple of years...

Not sudden.

TeddyTedson

Sounds like you could be describing Gerry Adams.

charlemont

We're all basically the same, If someone wants to be different, leave them off as long as they dont bother you or others.

twinQuins

First off, "republican" in the US is often used interchangeably with "conservative", so when you say "republicanism" is looked down upon what you're really talking about is right-wing politics being looked down upon. Similarly you'll just as often see "liberal" (even on boards!) used in a pejorative sense, too.

But honestly, can you name one positive thing nationalism has contributed to humanity?

deaddonkey

gah not funny

red menace

What really gets me are the Militant non believers who never miss an opportunity to mention how retarded religion is and stupid it's followers are.

Fair enough everyone has their beliefs I just don't want them rammed down my throat at every turn

I don't ram the fact that I believe in a God down anyone's throat (and am aware of the irony of mentioning it now)

pragmatic1

Thank fcuk someone started a thread on these issues as they're never really touched upon in AH.

mcmoustache

(i) This is normal. Belief in God, belief in the fact that you are better than others because of the country you were born in and religious conservatism are quite dumb. These days with the Church in decline, people can more freely call bull**** where they see it and this is why you are noticing it now.

(ii) No. Among my friends are evangelicals, patriots and other assorted loons. Friendship is more important than silly beliefs.

Oh_Noes

deaddonkey wrote: »

gah not funny

I was just about to thanks

ImpossibleDuck

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not sudden.

Yes it is. A change in a country's total way of thinking doesn't happen overnight.

Dravokivich

It's not the ideals that are the problem, it's the childish attitude of some that hold them that is.

philologos

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

(i) Has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?

To a certain degree. I'm not very nationalistic, or patriotic, and I wouldn't call myself a republican. I believe it is up to the people of Northern Ireland to decide their political destiny.

I do believe in Christianity. Some people think that it is crazy, but more often than not people believe that the caricature of Christianity that they have created for themselves is crazy. It is interesting to challenge the misconceptions that people have because many find that there is something to it after all.

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

(ii) Do you think that friendships/relationships can only be successful if the other party share the same beliefs or outlook on the world/life?

Friendships certainly can be successful. Many of my friends are atheists and agnostics. Relationships are another subject. I don't think I could be in a relationship with a militant atheist. If they can't understand or respect something as big in my life as my faith in God then I can't see how such a relationship could work.

ImpossibleDuck

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's not the ideals that are the problem, it's the childish attitude of some that hold them that is.

An interesting point, care to elaborate?

liah

They're generally seen as idiotic because the majority of them can't support their opinions with legitimate facts and instead use emotional or vitriolic argumentative styles, at least in the cases of Christianity (absolutely no proof whatsoever of a god) and Nationalism/Patriotism (the idea of being 'proud' to accidentally be born in a country you didn't choose nor contributed to the success of, and 'proud' of what 'your' nation did before you even existed is, frankly, ridiculous).

Republicanism is debatable, but the majority of them have no substance to their opinion and grossly ignore the facts.

Hence, why they're seen as idiotic.

It's recent because it's only recently (in the 'world history' version of recently, anyway) essentially everyone receives an education and essentially everyone uses the internet and can fact-check for themselves. So things that have no basis in reality or fact slowly die out.

Or at least, that's my theory/opinion.

philologos

liah wrote: »

Christianity (absolutely no proof whatsoever of a god)

There is no proof for anything except in mathematics.

liah

philologos wrote: »

There is no proof for anything except in mathematics.

I'm fairly sure you know exactly what I mean.

philologos

You mean that you personally can't see any valid reason for believing in God where other people seem to be able to?

liah

philologos wrote: »

You mean that you personally can't see any valid reason for believing in God where other people seem to be able to?

I'm saying that I have never seen evidence of a god, so what reason have I to believe in something that has no falsifiable evidence?

I don't know one doesn't exist, but I find it incredibly improbable and, in true Occam's Razor form, am fairly sure the Bible's probably just a work of fiction rather than something passed down from an omnipotent being.

I mean, come on - if someone was convinced, absolutely convinced, of the existence of leprechauns, would you not question it? Would you not ask for proof before you believed?

dizzywizlw

Christianity, Republicanism (either American or SF) and Nationalism/Patriotism.


Those are systems that at their very core are based on assumption that are either highly suspect (Christianity) or not based in reality (Irish Nationalism being a prime example). Nevertheless all are designed as mechanisms to produce an untrue 'truth' to be accepted and acceded to by the people such that they are easier to control.


I believe the 'stupid' factor comes rightly or wrongly from the belief that if you fall victim to an ideological swindle you are, in essence, a thick.

Dravokivich

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

An interesting point, care to elaborate?

Eh, it was quite a simple comment...

There's some people that hold those ideal's that have a sensible approach to things, while there others that don't...

Nhead

I think that for a long time there were people that were afraid to say they weren't Christian (more Catholic) in Ireland as it was so ingrained in our culture. As a consequence those that are Christian now think people saying they are not that religious is something new but the feeling was there before just not expressed. Nationalism, Republicanism and Patriotism is percieved to be hijacked by certain groups so people avoid that also.

philologos

liah wrote: »

I'm saying that I have never seen evidence of a god, so what reason have I to believe in something that has no falsifiable evidence?

I don't know one doesn't exist, but I find it incredibly improbable and, in true Occam's Razor form, am fairly sure it's probably just a work of fiction.

I mean, come on - if someone was convinced, absolutely convinced, of the existence of leprechauns, would you not question it? Would you not ask for proof before you believed?

I'm not saying that you can't question it. I question my beliefs continually and I find that continually that Christianity is a very robust framework for seeing the nature of reality. I would encourage people to ask the hard questions about Christianity.

It isn't proof that we are looking for, because there is no mathematical algorithm that can prove God's existence, or indeed refute God's existence. Indeed there isn't proof for 99% of everything that we know.

There is however evidence. The best we can do with God's existence is to ask earnestly the following:
1. What reasons do I have to believe that God is more likely than not to exist and what do I have to indicate this is true?
OR
2. What reasons do I have to believe that God is not likely to exist and what do I have to indicate that this is true?

That's where we're at and that's the best we can do in this argument.

Dyr

mcmoustache wrote: »

belief in the fact that you are better than others because of the country you were born in

Patriotism isnt the belief that you are better than anyone because of where you were born, any more than caring about your family means that you believe they are superior to anyone else.

I guess that ould git shaw gave a lot people a bum steer in that regard

liah

Oh, and, just to clarify my earlier post - I'm not calling anyone who believes in any of these things idiotic. Different isn't wrong, or stupid. Was just explaining why it's seen as idiotic - not saying I see it that way.

Dravokivich

philologos wrote: »

I'm not saying that you can't question it. I question my beliefs continually and I find that continually that Christianity is a very robust framework for seeing the nature of reality. I would encourage people to ask the hard questions about Christianity.

It isn't proof that we are looking for, because there is no mathematical algorithm that can prove God's existence, or indeed refute God's existence. Indeed there isn't proof for 99% of everything that we know.

There is however evidence. The best we can do with God's existence is to ask earnestly the following:
1. What reasons do I have to believe that God is more likely than not to exist and what do I have to indicate this is true?
OR
2. What reasons do I have to believe that God is not likely to exist and what do I have to indicate that this is true?

That's where we're at and that's the best we can do in this argument.

You're saying that as much as you have to be convinced something is there, you also need to be convinced it isn't.

How can you show something isn't there, while equally you can't show that it is?

average hero

There is nothing wrong with a healthy belief in patriotism, republicanism, or even religion. The problem is when people take hardline, militant viewpoints on these topics. With the close relationship between these topics and one's identity, these viewpoints can be filled with emotion instead of facts (as stated before).

An interesting case in point is in Ireland if you are proud of the flag, and quite patriotic, certain people will label you a 'RA head. In America, if you aren't proud of your flag, or aren't patriotic, you are un-American.

Tolerance to all viewpoints, form everybody is what is needed.

liah

philologos wrote: »

There is however evidence. The best we can do with God's existence is to ask earnestly the following:
1. What reasons do I have to believe that God is more likely than not to exist and what do I have to indicate this is true?
OR
2. What reasons do I have to believe that God is not likely to exist and what do I have to indicate that this is true?

That's where we're at and that's the best we can do in this argument.

What evidence?

Christians say this a lot but I've never got a straight answer, and I don't know what to google for. What evidence is there, please show it to me?

ImpossibleDuck

dizzywizlw wrote: »

not based in reality (Irish Nationalism being a prime example.

Excuse me, WHAT? Why is Nationalism such an absurd ideology? Is having pride in the great men who came before me and shaped this country so ridiculous?

I mean, of all the examples given, how does Nationalism not fit into society? Just to clarify here, I'm not talking about extremism. I'm talking about having a modest sense of pride in my country's glorious history which has produced some of the finest men the world has ever seen. Why is recognising these great men and great events such a "childish" ideology?

I just don't understand why Nationalism is *almost* frowned upon...

Is it really such a *crime* to love one's country?

Limerick3

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

I've noticed this development over the past couple of years in Ireland especially with the decline of Catholicism.

Suddenly "intelligent" people see you as stupid if you are in any way religious, nationalist, republican(not specifically Irish, but International too) or Patriotic.

First with the religion, suddenly your "stupid" for following a religion - really bugs me.

But it's the rest that really annoy me, how if you are Nationalist, Republican or Patriotic you are looked down upon.

When I mention Republicanism, I am not specifically talking about Irish republicanism which in extreme cases is controversial. But republicanism is looked down upon SOO much in America. We've all seen the Americans making fun of republicans.

(i) Has anyone else experienced this or is it just me?

I have lost a few friends who just could not comprehend or accept my beliefs and opinions.

(ii) Do you think that friendships/relationships can only be successful if the other party share the same beliefs or outlook on the world/life?

Who cares what these people think, they are the real idiots.

Aldebaran

red menace wrote: »

What really gets me are the Militant non believers who never miss an opportunity to mention how retarded religion is and stupid it's followers are.

Fair enough everyone has their beliefs I just don't want them rammed down my throat at every turn

I don't ram the fact that I believe in a God down anyone's throat (and am aware of the irony of mentioning it now)

To paraphrase something I read recently: militant theists subjugate woman, harass and abuse gay people, and start wars based on 'God's commands'. Militant atheists call you an idiot on the internet. I know which one I'd prefer!

philologos

Dravokivich wrote: »

How can you show something isn't there, while equally you can't show that it is?

Neither of those questions say this. It is about likelihood. What would make you think that God is less likely to exist as an atheist or what would make you think that God is likely to exist as a theist?

You should take a look at the philosophy of religion at some of the arguments given by both sides. Both sides contribute in equal measure to the discussion.

twinQuins

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Excuse me, WHAT? Why is Nationalism such an absurd ideology? Is having pride in the great men who came before me and shaped this country so ridiculous?

I mean, of all the examples given, how does Nationalism not fit into society? Just to clarify here, I'm not talking about extremism. I'm talking about having a modest sense of pride[...]

What you're describing here is closer to patriotism than nationalism.

The King of Moo

red menace wrote: »

What really gets me are the Militant non believers who never miss an opportunity to mention how retarded religion is and stupid it's followers are.

Fair enough everyone has their beliefs I just don't want them rammed down my throat at every turn

I don't ram the fact that I believe in a God down anyone's throat (and am aware of the irony of mentioning it now)

+1 I'm an agnostic but I've no problem with people of faith at all. Live and let live, I'm more concerned with what a person does, how they behave, than if they believe in a deity or not.
I do hate the many militant atheists (not representative of all of them of course) who continually mock religion, particulary religious moderates. They just strike me as snobs who love feeling they're right about something other people are wrong about. Like people who only like music if it's not popular.
I'm also particularly irked by the number of celebrity atheists who have crept out of the woodwork in the last few years, yet never mentioned their atheism before it became a safe and popular thing to do.

Regards the original post, I think what the OP's noticed is the extreme vanguard of the general development of a more liberal/secular society.

liah

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Excuse me, WHAT? Why is Nationalism such an absurd ideology? Is having pride in the great men who came before me and shaped this country so ridiculous?

I mean, of all the examples given, how does Nationalism not fit into society? Just to clarify here, I'm not talking about extremism. I'm talking about having a modest sense of pride in my country's glorious history which has produced some of the finest men the world has ever seen. Why is recognising these great men and great events such a "childish" ideology?

I just don't understand why Nationalism is *almost* frowned upon...

Is it really such a *crime* to love one's country?

It's not a crime, but you have to be aware - the idea of 'nationality' is a construct, especially now, in 2011, when we're connected with everyone all over the world in a matter of seconds. The lines drawn between countries are arbitrary. Nationality is arbitrary; it's nothing more than an accident of birth. The internet (and cheap travel!) is making this more and more obvious.

Here, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

might give you a better idea of what I'm on about.

Basically, Nationalism is needlessly divisive and its only purpose is for people to have an 'us' and a 'them'. The Irish are no better than the English, nor the English any better than the Irish, or whatever other combination you want to pick. We're all just people, regardless of what language we're speaking or accent we've got.

And the idea of being proud for what people did before you existed just strikes me as strange. You had nothing to do with their success, what have you got to be proud for? You're only Irish because of an accident of birth.

ImpossibleDuck

twinQuins wrote: »

What you're describing here is closer to patriotism than nationalism.

That's true sorry but it is very hard not to overlap.

But why it looks like I'm talking about Patriotism is because I was talking about the great nationalists that have come before me and how Nationalism isn't a terrible thing. I strayed kinda into patriotism too but in essence I was proving the point that Nationalism has contributed to humanity. I was answering this lads question too:

twinQuins wrote: »

But honestly, can you name one positive thing nationalism has contributed to humanity?

UglyBolloxFace

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

Republicanism....suddenly seen as idiotic??[/B]

Well how can Republicanism not be seen as idiotic when you have idiots going to a protest about the British Queen's visit while wearing a ****ing Man United jersey?(see attached image). These people disgust me and are beyond stupid. No wonder no-one respects the Republican movement.

philologos

liah wrote: »

What evidence?

Christians say this a lot but I've never got a straight answer, and I don't know what to google for. What evidence is there, please show it to me?

I posted these a few years ago I need to revise these, but I would consider evidence to be what makes the belief in God more evident rather than less evident.

Perhaps when I'm not bogged down in my university exams I will give it a little more consideration and revise these arguments.

I am suggesting that when another thread like this comes up I will write a post extensively giving reasons why I believe in Christianity from the most general to the most particular. It is a question I get asked very frequently and I believe I should try to answer it as best as I can.

metrovelvet

liah wrote: »

It's not a crime, but you have to be aware - the idea of 'nationality' is a construct, especially now, in 2011, when we're connected with everyone all over the world in a matter of seconds. The lines drawn between countries are arbitrary. Nationality is arbitrary; it's nothing more than an accident of birth. The internet (and cheap travel!) is making this more and more obvious.

Here, watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7AWnfFRc7g

might give you a better idea of what I'm on about.

Basically, Nationalism is needlessly divisive and its only purpose is for people to have an 'us' and a 'them'. The Irish are no better than the English, nor the English any better than the Irish, or whatever other combination you want to pick. We're all just people, regardless of what language we're speaking or accent we've got.

Nationality is more than an accident of birth. There are lots of people who are not born in the country of which they are nationals. There are lots of people who emigrate and choose their nationality and there are lots of people who can inherit it through parents, grandparents or whatever the policy of the nation is regarding this. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage.

As to answer the OPs question, there is a fashionable cynicism, the total inverse of Victorian sentimentality, equally inappropriate in believing in anything but yourself.

ImpossibleDuck

liah wrote: »

Nationality is arbitrary; it's nothing more than an accident of birth.

That's a very childish outlook on Nationalism, I really dislike when people use this arguement. It's not about the fact that you were "accidentally" born there. It's showing what Nationalism can do, take a brief look back into Irish Nationalism between 1900 - 1930 and you see clearly that it is more than just about where you are born.

twinQuins

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

That's true sorry but it is very hard not to overlap.

But why it looks like I'm talking about Patriotism is because I was talking about the great nationalists that have come before me and how Nationalism isn't a terrible thing. I strayed kinda into patriotism too but in essence I was proving the point that Nationalism has contributed to humanity. I was answering this lads question too:

I think perhaps we're mixing up differences in how the term "nationalism" is applied.

Often, in Ireland, when people talk about nationalism they're talking about Irish independence but in a broader sense nationalism refers to a fervent love of one's country, quite often with a corresponding denigration of others.

I suppose it's somewhat related to the American idea of manifest destiny: that their political ideals are best and should be brought unto others. Most often, however, it means forced onto them.
Belief that one's country is superior over all others isn't all that far away from starting a war to expand one's territory because of that.

philologos wrote: »

I posted these a few years ago I need to revise these, but I would consider evidence to be what makes the belief in God more evident rather than less evident. [...]

But that all makes sense only if you either are a Christian or otherwise hold at least some of the beliefs of Christianity to be true.

What evidence, external of Christian belief and doctrine (and that's the crucial bit), is there to support the existence of the Christian god?

liah

metrovelvet wrote: »

Nationality is more than an accident of birth. There are lots of people who are not born in the country of which they are nationals. There are lots of people who emigrate and choose their nationality and there are lots of people who can inherit it through parents, grandparents or whatever the policy of the nation is regarding this. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your heritage.

Honestly, I'd consider all those things quite arbitrary, too.

I'm saying, nations have been made up by people. National borders were arbitrarily drawn by human hands, hands who wanted to lay claim to land yet didn't want anyone else they didn't like on it - which, to me, seems needlessly divisive. We are not our nationality. We are human, and that is all.

Dravokivich

philologos wrote: »

Neither of those questions say this. It is about likelihood. What would make you think that God is less likely to exist as an atheist or what would make you think that God is likely to exist as a theist?

You should take a look at the philosophy of religion at some of the arguments given by both sides. Both sides contribute in equal measure to the discussion.

It appears I missunderstood your previous post so.

I have read over that page on wiki. As far as I can gather, that's taking the existance of a God(s) as a constant, but seeking to define what/why God is, more so then there is/isn't.

Admittedly that could be due to me missunderstanding it, as the langauge is arranged in a way I generally don't read :P

Randomer.

ImpossibleDuck wrote: »

First with the religion, suddenly your "stupid" for following a religion - really bugs me.

..................

But republicanism is looked down upon SOO much in America. We've all seen the Americans making fun of republicans.

1st, no its not suddenly, its just now you can do so without being killed, burned at the stake being sent to jail or being generally an outcast.

In other words the fear has been taken away for asking the important questions.

If you met a guy who believed in santa at 30 years old you'd question his intelligence too.

As for American republicans. They represent the most idiotic aspects of that country Have you seen Bill O'Reilly ? Look at Bush? Damn straight republicans are considered unintelligent , and rightfully so.

Nodin

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Well how can Republicanism not be seen as idiotic when you have idiots going to a protest about the British Queen's visit while wearing a ****ing Man United jersey?(see attached image). These people disgust me and are beyond stupid. No wonder no-one respects the Republican movement.

...you might as well blame everyone who supports man utd on his account. It makes no sense.

The mainstream republican movement has nothing to do with these eejits, and is the most socially liberal party on the Island. It's left wing, anti-racist, pro-gay marriage, and has been for a very long time now. These gobshites - and indeed a good few who slag off the Republican movement - have no clue what its about.

philologos

twinQuins wrote: »

But that all makes sense only if you either are a Christian or otherwise hold at least some of the beliefs of Christianity to be true.

What evidence, external of Christian belief and doctrine (and that's the crucial bit), is there to support the existence of the Christian god?

Many of the arguments do point to external evidence to validate the Biblical narrative, in terms of historicity, and authenticity. Many of the arguments work philosophically to establish why exactly God's existence is more likely than not.

I will be rewriting these in the next while though, but I think to say that there is no valid reason to believe in God is verifiably false.

metrovelvet

liah wrote: »

Honestly, I'd consider all those things quite arbitrary, too.

I'm saying, nations have been made up by people. National borders were arbitrarily drawn by human hands, hands who wanted to lay claim to land yet didn't want anyone else they didn't like on it - which, to me, seems needlessly divisive. We are not our nationality. We are human, and that is all.

There is nothing arbitrary about it. Nothing arbitrary about the thousands of immigrants from all over the world who risked their lives on ships to become Americans. Nothing arbitrary about curriculums that teach us about where we come from. Then you have the millions of people in immigrant nations like the US, haunted by the 'who am I question?' and want and need to know where they come from and save up for five years for their two week vacation to see where their great grandparents came from. It's important to people, heritage, parentage, identity.

Humans, that's all? Mammal's that's all? Animals that's all? Don't think so, and I find it glib, reductive and depressing.

philologos

Dravokivich wrote: »

It appears I missunderstood your previous post so.

I have read over that page on wiki. As far as I can gather, that's taking the existance of a God(s) as a constant, but seeking to define what/why God is, more so then there is/isn't.

Admittedly that could be due to me missunderstanding it, as the langauge is arranged in a way I generally don't read :P

If that were true then there would be no atheist philosophers of religion, in fact there are an abundance.

GarIT

liah wrote: »

What evidence?

Christians say this a lot but I've never got a straight answer, and I don't know what to google for. What evidence is there, please show it to me?

Google "evidence christanity is true" and you get a lot of reasons explaining how christanity is true but all of these are propaganda and lies. philologos is to caught up in his own magical world to question any of the reasons given.

philologos

GarIT wrote: »

philologos is to caught up in his own magical world to question any of the reasons given.

LOL :pac:

Let me know when you've something solid to bring to the table rather. We can do this without childishness.

Dravokivich

philologos wrote: »

If that were true then there would be no atheist philosophers of religion, in fact there are an abundance.

From the Wiki article you linked.

2. Agnosticism - the belief that the existence or non-existence of deities is currently unknown or unknowable, or that the existence of a God or of gods cannot be proven.
3. Atheism - the disbelief in the existence of one or more divinities or deities.

It is important to note that some of these positions are not mutually exclusive. For example, agnostic theists choose to believe God exists while asserting that knowledge of God's existence is inherently unknowable. Similarly, agnostic atheists reject belief in the existence of all deities, while asserting that whether any such entities exist or not is inherently unknowable.

That paragraph after defining Agnostic and Atheist still "assumes" a God(s) is a constant.