And we thought our Justice system was bad

kfallon

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387341/Serial-burglar-Nathan-Cassidy-free-judge-accepts-OCD-make-jail-traumatic.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Did he clean up the mess after he smashed in the windows? :rolleyes:

In before "wiping the slate clean" jokes!

orourkeda

I see he's into wiping peoples eye too

AckwelFoley

He would be passed around the jail shower room like a bong at a hippy party

biko

content

Burglar with a cleanliness obsession is spared jail... because he'd find it too dirty
Walking free: Criminal Nathan Cassidy who escaped a prison sentence for burglary when a judge was persuaded his OCD would make jail unbearable for him

He's got a string of previous convictions as long as your arm. But crime isn’t Nathan Cassidy’s only compulsion.
The serial burglar has an obsession with cleanliness – and that condition has helped keep him out of prison.
The 20-year-old was allowed to walk free from court after he told a judge he would find jail ‘too traumatic’ because of his obsessive compulsive disorder.
Cassidy smashed his way into an elderly couple’s home while they were sleeping and stole a handbag containing £105.
The thief, who has 14 previous convictions for 29 crimes, committed the burglary while on a suspended sentence for robbery and handling stolen goods.
However, he avoided jail by convincing Cambridge Crown Court he would not be able to cope with life behind bars because he is obsessed with cleanliness.
Instead Judge Gareth Hawkesworth handed Cassidy, of Cambridge, a 12-month sentence in a young offenders’ institution, suspended for two years.

Saila

fair play

kfallon

<insert tough on gcrime, tough on the causes of gcrime joke>

prinz

FFS, why didn't they stick him in prison and see then how he was. :mad:

Naikon

Taking responsibility for your own actions is percieved as a stupid move these days. **** the OCD excuse. This guy is a thief. Honesty won't get you very far anymore as far as I can tell. Bloody Psychiatrists

Oranage2

Do the crime, do the grime!

Ciaran_B

You might say he made

<puts on sunglasses>

a clean getaway.



YEEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Raging_Ninja

It could be seen as mental torture, cruel and unusual.

I'm conflicted. Punishment is important, but rehabilitation is more so.

You don't want minor criminals to become brutalized in prison and come out ten times worse than when they went in. A prison sentence could have led to it, if it didn't break the kid entirely and he committed suicide.

Naikon

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

It could be seen as mental torture, cruel and unusual. I'm conflicted. Punishment is important, but rehabilitation is more so. You don't want minor criminals to become brutalized in prison and come out ten times worse than when they went in, and I think this could have led to it, if it didn't break the kid entirely and he committed suicide.

The string of previous convictions does not help his case, mind you. "OCD" is NOT an excuse to justify stealing from old people for instance. It riles me that Psychiatrists can use "OCD" or whatever fancy term to potentially explain certain conduct. Had this guy been beaten to within an inch of his life by an abusive father, maybe I would agree. "OCD" has nothing to do with stealing. Even if the condition affects his day to day life, how does it explain the actions? It's not like this chap is stealing bread to feed his poverty stricken family. There is no grey area when it comes to simple theft. Simples.

CrazyRabbit

If prison is so bloody hard on him because of his OCD, then why the hell is he still breaking the law!!! Sounds like a pretty good (extra) reason to stay within the law.

Naikon

I am pretty certain there are plenty of law abiding citizens with OCD traits who don't try to justify simple moral choices by blaming it on their "condition". Why should a report by a psychiatrist/counsellor hold weight in this case? Theft is a very simple choice. He deliberately set out to harm people. No grey area.

kfallon

I'd have locked him in a cell with shit smeared all over the walls, that'd teach him.
The world's gone soft :rolleyes:

Biggins

When his probation is over, does he get a clean sheet or is he already washed up?

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

The string of previous convictions does not help his case, mind you. "OCD" is NOT an excuse to justify stealing from old people for instance. It riles me that Psychiatrists can use "OCD" or whatever fancy term to potentially explain certain conduct. Had this guy been beaten to within an inch of his life by an abusive father, maybe I would agree. "OCD" has nothing to do with stealing. Even if the condition affects his day to day life, how does it explain the actions? It's not like this chap is stealing bread to feed his poverty stricken family. There is no grey area when it comes to simple theft. Simples.

Whilst I personally think this guy should be locked up, I cannot understand your last statement. If he had experienced physical abuse you may agree? Whilst there are many different opinions on the aetiology of OCD, a significant amount of those with OCD that I have treated have experienced childhood sexual abuse, those I would be careful in not saying that is the cause. So would that facilitate such a sentence in this case, if the chap had been abused?

I'm all for taking into account psychological issues when a person is being sentenced, with the limited info we have on this case, I don't think his OCD should stop him from going to jail. Psychological issues and terms can explain a person's behaviour; but it does not justify it. There is a big difference and I think it is a common misunderstanding. My own work would bring me into contact with varying degrees of criminality, mental health professionals seek to understand, explain and treat the behaviour, but never to justify criminal behaviour.

Naikon

Odysseus wrote: »

I cannot understand your last statement. If he had experienced physical abuse you may agree? Whilst there are many different opinions on the aetiology of OCD, a significant amount of those with OCD that I have treated have experienced childhood sexual abuse, those I would be careful in not saying that is the cause. So would that facilitate such a sentence in this case, if the chap had been abused?

This chap didn't suffer any sort of abuse. Childhood abuse cannot really be faked. OCD severity can. The clear lack of objective criteria for diagnosing OCD leads me to believe the disorder should not be held in the same regard. While chronic cases may possibly exist, OCD is something that ANY member of the general population could have in a given time period based on an arbitrary, culturally influenced checklist. Handing out labels on a whim to half explain actions is a cop out for society as a whole. Empirical isn't a word used too often by mental health professionals.

ArtyM

Proper Order

Yakult

He was pretty easy to find on facebook, looks like a right tosser.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

This chap didn't suffer any sort of abuse. Childhood abuse cannot really be faked. OCD severity can. The clear lack of objective criteria for diagnosing OCD leads me to believe the disorder should not be held in the same regard. While chronic cases exist, OCD is something that ANY member of the general population could have in a given time period based on an arbitrary, culturally influenced checklist. Handing out labels on a whim to half explain actions is a cop out for society as a whole.

I did not say he did if you read my post; I asked the poster who could understand this guys criminality if hed been physically abused; if he could understand it if he had been sexually abused, as I would experience a history of sexual abuse in my patients with OCD. However, we do not have access to his case file to say whether he did or did not have OCD or how severe it was. How can you say abuse cannot be faked, I know of cases where people have made false claims to the Redress Board and received compensation. So like most things it can be faked.

Unless you possess info that I don't, it is impossible to say whether he was abused or not, even though we are going off topic. Clinically relevant OCD symptoms are not something that most of the population could have in a given time. What some people call OCD traits yes, but the high levels of distress that accompany certain behaviours are totally different in OCD is totally different. OCD is one of those terms like psychopath that has become part of our everyday lexicon, but it's use does not reflect it's clinical meaning.

Are the ICD-10 and DSM merely arbitrary cultural checklists? Yes I would have to agree with you on that one, but for the rest I can't.

holystungun9

prinz wrote: »

FFS, why didn't they stick him in prison and see then how he was. :mad:

Exactly, give him some Mr. Muscle (the spray, not the cell mate) and a feather duster and leave go mental cleaning everything. He could clean the hole thing top to bottom, nobs and all. Wait, cell door don't have nobs, do they?

Naikon

Odysseus wrote: »

I did not say he did if you read my post; I asked the poster who could understand this guys criminality if hed been physically abused; if he could understand it if he had been sexually abused, as I would experience a history of sexual abuse in my patients with OCD. However, we do not have access to his case file to say whether he did or did not have OCD or how severe it was. How can you say abuse cannot be faked, I know of cases where people have made false claims to the Redress Board and received compensation. So like most things it can be faked.

Unless you possess info that I don't, it is impossible to say whether he was abused or not, even though we are going off topic. Clinically relevant OCD symptoms are not something that most of the population could have in a given time. What some people call OCD traits yes, but the high levels of distress that accompany certain behaviours are totally different in OCD is totally different. OCD is one of those terms like psychopath that has become part of our everyday lexicon, but it's use does not reflect it's clinical meaning.

Are the ICD-10 and DSM merely arbitrary cultural checklists? Yes I would have to agree with you on that one, but for the rest I can't.

Ok, I am wrong on this one.

Saila

Naikon wrote: »

The string of previous convictions does not help his case, mind you. "OCD" is NOT an excuse to justify stealing from old people for instance. It riles me that Psychiatrists can use "OCD" or whatever fancy term to potentially explain certain conduct. Had this guy been beaten to within an inch of his life by an abusive father, maybe I would agree. "OCD" has nothing to do with stealing. Even if the condition affects his day to day life, how does it explain the actions? It's not like this chap is stealing bread to feed his poverty stricken family. There is no grey area when it comes to simple theft. Simples.

Naikon wrote: »

I am pretty certain there are plenty of law abiding citizens with OCD traits who don't try to justify simple moral choices by blaming it on their "condition". Why should a report by a psychiatrist/counsellor hold weight in this case? Theft is a very simple choice. He deliberately set out to harm people. No grey area.

cop on and read the article and tell me where it says he is using OCD to justify/explain the thefts :rolleyes:

Naikon

Saila wrote: »

cop on and read the article and tell me where it says he is using OCD to justify/explain the thefts :rolleyes:

Where exactly did I state he was using OCD as an excuse? It's pretty obvious from the article that it was a major factor in not landing this guy in pound me in the ass prison. A reduced sentance based on an OCD diagnosis. "It’s clear to me from the psychological report you have a raft of psychological problems that need addressing.’ The OCD is basically a mitigating factor towards his theft offences.

ArtyM

holystungun9 wrote: »

Exactly, give him some Mr. Muscle (the spray, not the cell mate) and a feather duster and leave go mental cleaning everything. He could clean the hole thing top to bottom, nobs and all. Wait, cell door don't have nobs, do they?

No but cellmates do(knobs) and they always need polishing!

m@cc@

kfallon wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1387341/Serial-burglar-Nathan-Cassidy-free-judge-accepts-OCD-make-jail-traumatic.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Don't feed the troll.

holystungun9

m@cc@ wrote: »

Don't feed the troll.

Can we scratch his belly??

Saila

Naikon wrote: »

Where exactly did I state he was using OCD as an excuse? It's pretty obvious from the article that it was a major factor in not landing this guy in pound me in the ass prison. A reduced sentance based on an OCD diagnosis. "It’s clear to me from the psychological report you have a raft of psychological problems that need addressing.’ The OCD is basically a mitigating factor towards his theft offences.

no its not, you are missing the point the reason OCD is being used as a defence in this is that serving in prison with a condition of that nature is going to be cruel and difficult for him which a couple of other posters have gone into a bit more detail about early on in the thread.
You seem to have the sterotypical notion of what OCD is, but dont seem to get the point of what it actually is. The psych reports will not be justifying the crime, but rather explaining the cruel nature of the punishment involved and the judge being a human and b an understanding of what getting the propper treatment he needs will be better for society in the long run has decided he get his head sorted out for him

m@cc@

holystungun9 wrote: »

Can we scratch his belly??

It's a bit sexist to assume the troll was male. You want to take a long hard look at yourself and your prejudices.

Gummy Panda

I hear in prison, they make you pee in a cup then throw it at you.

holystungun9

m@cc@ wrote: »

It's a bit sexist to assume the troll was male. You want to take a long hard look at yourself and your prejudices.

I am beating myself up right now. Remember Silas from the Da Vinci Code?

holystungun9

Gummy Panda wrote: »

I hear in prison, they make you pee in a cup then throw it at you.

Least of your worries from what I hear.

m@cc@

holystungun9 wrote: »

I am beating myself up right now. Remember Silas from the Da Vinci Code?

Taking the piss out of the Catholics now? FFS.

Odysseus

Naikon wrote: »

Why should a report by a psychiatrist/counsellor hold weight in this case? Theft is a very simple choice. He deliberately set out to harm people. No grey area.

Sorry I meant to address this point in my other post; I think it deserves a response as I'm sure others may ask the same question.

I do court reports as part of my job, though personally I'm a bit unusual in how I do mine. I will only write about the reason a person attends, their level of attendance and their engagement with the therapeutic process. I don't do long historical reports that some of my colleagues or team members may. Just to clarify I'm a psychotherapist not a psychiatrist, a report from the latter would be more indebt and carry more weight in most cases.

Anyway the reason they should hold weight is that usually there are some kind of psychological issues that accompany criminality. Now it is within our remit to treat psychological disorders, and if the person's psychological issues are connected to their criminal activities, a report from us shows many things.

Firstly it shows that the person's mental status may be a factor in why they engage in such activities. A report will generally indicate whether a person is engaging with treatment, so if their is a psychological issues affecting a person's behaviour and they are activities and they are engaged in treatment it can be used in part to assess the likelihood that the person may re-offend or if they are in some way remorseful about they behaviour. These are factors a judge needs to consider when they are sentencing a person, as punishment is only one factor in the justice process, the ideal of rehabilitation is another factor.

People should be punished for their crimes but rehabilitation is a significant factor, the system is a long way from perfect, but if they goal was only to punish it would be even worse. So the above would be the reasons I see as to why such reports should hold some weight in court. You will rarely see a report that comments on what punishment should be handed out, as most judges take a very strong dislike to being told how to sentence a person. Just look at how they react in cases where a mandatory sentence is recommended, often outside of murder cases they do not give the mandatory sentence.

There is a strong belief out there that court reports are a get out of jail free card, they are not. Additionally, most people who write reports are very conscious of what they write, and do not seek to justify a person's behaviour. For example, just because I write a report for a person and the report states that they have engaged very well in their treatment; it does mean that I don't think they person should not go to jail. I am merely giving a report to the judge on how the person has engaged in treatment; nothing more, nothing less

Naikon

Saila wrote: »

no its not, you are missing the point the reason OCD is being used as a defence in this is that serving in prison with a condition of that nature is going to be cruel and difficult for him which a couple of other posters have gone into a bit more detail about early on in the thread.
You seem to have the sterotypical notion of what OCD is, but dont seem to get the point of what it actually is. The psych reports will not be justifying the crime, but rather explaining the cruel nature of the punishment involved and the judge being a human and b an understanding of what getting the propper treatment he needs will be better for society in the long run has decided he get his head sorted out for him

I never said the reports were going to justify the crime. Partially explain at most. He won't be serving jail time due to the OCD. That is the cruft. Prison is cruel? Gee, I wonder how I could have thought otherwise:pac: I fail to see how OCD is such a large mitigating factor, that it can effectively overturn a prison sentance. Sure, everybody could use OCD as an excuse for repeated theft if they were in a spot of trouble?. If the OCD Is as severe as he claims, why is he still breaking into unclean homes? Surely he could not leave the house and terrorise old women due to mental anguish? It sounds a bit fishy to me.

prinz

Naikon wrote: »

I never said the reports were going to justify the crime. Partially explain at most. He won't be serving jail time due to the OCD. Prison is cruel? Gee, I wonder how I could have thought otherwise:pac: I fail to see how OCD is such a large mitigating factor, that it can effectively overturn a prison sentance. Sure, everybody could use OCD as an excuse for repeated theft if they were in a spot of trouble.

I am ever up in front of the law I am going to claim claustrophobia. It would be a cruel and unusual punishment to imprison me boss! Get out of jail free card. I'd say if this is true cases of OCD will go through the roof amongst the recently convicted. I'm Brian an OCD sufferer and so is my wife!!

Naikon

prinz wrote: »

I am ever up in front of the law I am going to claim claustrophobia. It would be a cruel and unusual punishment to imprison me boss! Get out of jail free card. I'd say if this is true cases of OCD will go through the roof amongst the recently convicted. I'm Brian an OCD sufferer and so is my wife!!

Imaginary spiders, don't forget the imaginary spiders. If his OCD really is that severe, he should be very glad he won't be going to a Psychiatric facility. Claiming insanity is about the worst decision you could make. At least prisoners have a rough idea if/when you get out.

Krusader

Naikon wrote: »

Imaginary spiders, don't forget the imaginary spiders. If his OCD really is that severe, he should be very glad he won't be going to a Psychiatric facility. Claiming insanity is about the worst decision you could make. At least prisoners have a rough idea if/when you get out.

"at some point during the course of the disorder, the person must realize that his/her obsessions or compulsions are unreasonable or excessive, which is why people with OCD are not considered to be detached from reality or psychotic."

Educate yourself!!

Naikon

Crosáidí wrote: »

"at some point during the course of the disorder, the person must realize that his/her obsessions or compulsions are unreasonable or excessive, which is why people with OCD are not generally considered to be detached from reality or psychotic."

Educate yourself!!

Fixed it for you. I am sure with the sheer number of convictions, he could claim to be suffering from temporary insanity. Seriously though, I wonder if this guy is the full shilling?

Capt'n Midnight

If he had stayed to clean up the broken glass then maybe, perhaps.

Then again he was on a suspended sentence at the time so there is no excuse for getting caught repeating the crime.