Bloody PSN update!

CiDeRmAn

Updated the PS3 last night to get back on PSN, no problem.
Watched a movie off of my server and played a game.
This morning the thing won't turn on, all I get is the green light coming on then switches off and the red light flashes.

FFS Sony, WTF have you done this time?
I'm getting very very fed up with this, this better be a temp issue.
Bunch of feckin morons, you'd imagine being so long in the tech game Sony would not be making so many mistakes, but there you go.

I have a first gen 60gb Pal PS3.

Minstrel27

My first gen 60gb updated with no problems

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Updated the PS3 last night to get back on PSN, no problem.
Watched a movie off of my server and played a game.
This morning the thing won't turn on, all I get is the green light coming on then switches off and the red light flashes.

FFS Sony, WTF have you done this time?
I'm getting very very fed up with this, this better be a temp issue.
Bunch of feckin morons, you'd imagine being so long in the tech game Sony would not be making so many mistakes, but there you go.

I have a first gen 60gb Pal PS3.

Some would say you did well for your launch model to last this long, sad really.

Beefy78

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Updated the PS3 last night to get back on PSN, no problem.
Watched a movie off of my server and played a game.
This morning the thing won't turn on, all I get is the green light coming on then switches off and the red light flashes.

FFS Sony, WTF have you done this time?
I'm getting very very fed up with this, this better be a temp issue.
Bunch of feckin morons, you'd imagine being so long in the tech game Sony would not be making so many mistakes, but there you go.

I have a first gen 60gb Pal PS3.

I don't think that's anything to do with the update. Your PS3 has died. YLOD. Happened to my 60GB machine a few months back.

Myrddin

Beefy78 wrote: »

I don't think that's anything to do with the update. Your PS3 has died. YLOD. Happened to my 60GB machine a few months back.

Far too many cases of this centered around updates for it to be conincidence. Some are without doubt, if not most...but there are definitely cases where even official updates cause problems. Its a red light too, not yellow.

Beefy78

EnterNow wrote: »

Far too many cases of this centered around updates for it to be conincidence. Some are without doubt, if not most...but there are definitely cases where even official updates cause problems. Its a red light too, not yellow.

I don't know... I'm not convinced. I think generally it's just coincidence. There'll be hundreds of launch PS3s dying every day at the moment (I reckon it'll be rare to have a working one in a years time). YLOD is a hardware failure so I don't see how a software update can cause it. Although I'm happy to be corrected if someone knows better.

The flashing red light is the biggest sign of the YLOD. The yellow light only flashes for half a second.

Myrddin

Beefy78 wrote: »

I don't know... I'm not convinced. I think generally it's just coincidence. There'll be hundreds of launch PS3s dying every day at the moment (I reckon it'll be rare to have a working one in a years time).

The flashing red light is the biggest sign of the YLOD. The yellow light only flashes for half a second.

Writing to the flash is not without risks, no matter the case...statistically, there will be problems with some users - guaranteed.

CiDeRmAn

Well, its a bit too much of a coincidence if you ask me.
And why should an electronic product have a life span of 4 years?
That's downright disgraceful.
Why should we accept that a device we buy is inevitably going to fail once the warranty expires?
Has the business with the 360 really made us so accepting?

As far as I can see I have a first gen PS3, I donwloaded the update without issue. It automatically turned off after the update was complete.
I turned it on this morning to watch a movie and that was all she wrote.

I want a replacement or repair on their dime, or I'll never buy a Sony machine of any type again.
They can feck off, I've been a massive supporter of their gaming consoles since the first one but if I don't get satisfaction from this, never again.

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Has the business with the 360 really made us so accepting?

Its had a hand without doubt. But in fairness to MS, they've at least acknowledged the problem & extended the warranty terms.

To deny there's an issue & make people fork out is just playing hardball a little over the top'ly.

Beefy78

Take it up through the Courts if you feel you've got a claim. There's a thread around here somewhere with plenty of advice.

It could have been the update which tipped it over the edge. If it made the difference then I suspect you'd not have long left on it eitherway.

Myrddin

Beefy78 wrote: »

Take it up through the Courts if you feel you've got a claim. There's a thread around here somewhere with plenty of advice.

It could have been the update which tipped it over the edge. If it made the difference then I suspect you'd not have long left on it eitherway.

If its a lifespan problem, there's still a massive issue there...its not without reason to expect a current generation high tech multimedia device to last longer than 4 years...not by a longshot.

Azure_sky

Yeah it is a sad state of affairs how long consoles last these days. My Snes still works perfectly and I got it when it was first released here nearly twenty years ago. It seems the first versions of consoles die pretty fast (The handhelds seem more reliable). I had terrible problems with my PS1 laser. My first PS2 stopped reading DVD movies and wouldn't play some games. I've went through about four Xbox 360s but thankfully the extended warranty MS gave meant I never had to pay for a repair. It's only since the Elite version came out they became reliable.
Nintendo seem the most reliable company by far.

I'll think twice before I become an early adopter of the next Playstation or Xbox console.

CiDeRmAn

I wrote a letter to Edge, got it published too, a year or two ago discussing the fact that in 10 years we may not have a machine to play our 360, PS2/PS3 games on as the original units break down and backward compatibility is jettisoned in favour of saving money.
We will never get to play them outside of VC style emulation.
Cart based systems are always going to be more robust given the lack of moving parts but then the likes of the PS3, while it may be quite complex and have hdd and blu-ray drives inside, is also well engineered (or we should have a right to believe it is) and should last years, just the same as their tvs and laptops last years without failure.

Beefy78

EnterNow wrote: »

If its a lifespan problem, there's still a massive issue there...its not without reason to expect a current generation high tech multimedia device to last longer than 4 years...not by a longshot.

I didn't say it was. The only console I've ever had die on me is my PS3. My Atari 2600 is still working fine, FFS.

Beefy78

Azure_sky wrote: »

Yeah it is a sad state of affairs how long consoles last these days. My Snes still works perfectly and I got it when it was first released here nearly twenty years ago. It seems the first versions of consoles die pretty fast (The handhelds seem more reliable). I had terrible problems with my PS1 laser. My first PS2 stopped reading DVD movies and wouldn't play some games. I've went through about four Xbox 360s but thankfully the extended warranty MS gave meant I never had to pay for a repair. It's only since the Elite version came out they became reliable.
Nintendo seem the most reliable company by far.

I'll think twice before I become an early adopter of the next Playstation or Xbox console.

The problem with the PS3s seems to be down to the solder lead-free used on the motherboard. I still don't think they've changed the solder that they use so I'm not expecting my Slim to last more than three or four years. I do think this failure to acknowledge and fix the problem is pretty inexcusable and if my second PS3 dies of the same thing then I'll keep that in mind when deciding which machine to go for next gen.

CiDeRmAn

I've got consoles from 1976 that work just as they did out of the box, I have a Vectrex that should be dead by all reckoning and yet is still perfect.
Heck, even my Virtual Boy, with some seriously bespoke parts in the 3D mechanism is still going well, so whats the deal Sony? You invented the BluRay format, can't you build a console around it that will last?

Myrddin

Beefy78 wrote: »

I didn't say it was. The only console I've ever had die on me is my PS3. My Atari 2600 is still working fine, FFS.

Indeed, same here. However to be devils advocate here, the 2600 doesn't generate the thermal levels that a PS3 does, not even remotely close. That being said, if it did, chances are it would likely continue to run happily as it doesn't have lead free solder in it.

Yes lead free solder sounds green & friendly...but in the bigger picture, its causing a bigger carbon footprint from a logistics & repair point of view that traditional solder would have. While its green to begin with, by the time all these consoles are repaired, & replaced, shipped & reshipped, its not green at all.

CiDeRmAn

Anyways, all I can do now is wait, wait and see when and if I can get in contact with Sony and see if they will replace the machine or am I going to have to bring them to court.
Feck it anyway

eddhorse

Could take a while to get any feedback with all the recent activity.
But you have a good chance id say on getting something out of them.
If not there is always the courts, i found my receipt the other day for my launch model, around €800 :eek:

RIP CiDeRmAn.

areu4real?

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Updated the PS3 last night to get back on PSN, no problem.
Watched a movie off of my server and played a game.
This morning the thing won't turn on, all I get is the green light coming on then switches off and the red light flashes.

FFS Sony, WTF have you done this time?
I'm getting very very fed up with this, this better be a temp issue.
Bunch of feckin morons, you'd imagine being so long in the tech game Sony would not be making so many mistakes, but there you go.

I have a first gen 60gb Pal PS3.

I'm with you on this. Exact same thing happened me last night. Played for about an hour, then dead!

ps. I have the 60gb model too

Azure_sky

I noticed when some laptops install a new OS they heat up a lot one of them even crashes at times. Maybe installing an update does the same thing to the PS3.

areu4real?

Also, if you check the comments under this article http://www.product-reviews.net/2011/05/15/psn-and-ps3-3-61-update-problems/ , we're not alone in having this problem. Wait nearly a month for the network to come back, play for an hour and then it dies. Sick! :mad:

Beefy78

That isn't the same issue.

amacachi

Am I right in thinking that when the dashboard revision for the 360 came out it purposely blew some parts so that consoles couldn't be J-Tagged any more? Wonder if updates generally do things like that and sometimes fcuk up. There were two updates off the top of my head when there seemed to be a huge amount of RRoDs on the 360 and I think last year something similar happened with a PS3 update.

shoxter

You cant compare the older generation consoles with the ps3. The ylod is caused by the massive temperatures reached by the cell be chip and the graphics chip, not to mention the power supply unit. Its the nature of modern electronics, they run hot, consoles, iphones, laptops, pc. Over time this heat is going to cause problems that wouldn't have been an issue on older consoles

Trevor451

shoxter wrote: »

You cant compare the older generation consoles with the ps3. The ylod is caused by the massive temperatures reached by the cell be chip and the graphics chip, not to mention the power supply unit. Its the nature of modern electronics, they run hot, consoles, iphones, laptops, pc. Over time this heat is going to cause problems that wouldn't have been an issue on older consoles

My PC is on 24/7 and it is way more powerful than a PS3 and yet it gives no problems. Sounds like shoddy design by sony imo.

shoxter

Trevor451 wrote: »

My PC is on 24/7 and yet it gives me no problems (even working under load) Sounds like shoddy engineering by Sony.

Yes but in your tower theres more ventilation, on the ps3 the 2 chips are within an inch of each other, on your pc you have a seperate graphics board with room around it to cool and most likely its own fan. Everything being crammed into a small space could be referred to as shoddy engineering but I dont see how they could have designed it differently

amacachi

shoxter wrote: »

Yes but in your tower theres more ventilation, on the ps3 the 2 chips are within an inch of each other, on your pc you have a seperate graphics board with room around it to cool and most likely its own fan. Everything being crammed into a small space could be referred to as shoddy engineering but I dont see how they could have designed it differently

...shoddy design?

Myrddin

shoxter wrote: »

You cant compare the older generation consoles with the ps3. The ylod is caused by the massive temperatures reached by the cell be chip and the graphics chip, not to mention the power supply unit. Its the nature of modern electronics, they run hot, consoles, iphones, laptops, pc. Over time this heat is going to cause problems that wouldn't have been an issue on older consoles

All the more reason to adequetly protect them, & use design materials that are proven again thermal changes. Lead free solder, unfortunately, isn't proving very effective.

amacachi

Any one of us here could design a console the way things are. What one would hope is that our amaterish and unreliable designs wouldn't get past the first stage of viability checks. Sony and MS obviously didn't have such checks in place when the first generation of the current consoles came out. Whether they did or not for the revisions remains to be seen.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

Any one of us here could design a console the way things are. What one would hope is that our amaterish and unreliable designs wouldn't get past the first stage of viability checks. Sony and MS obviously didn't have such checks in place when the first generation of the current consoles came out. Whether they did or not for the revisions remains to be seen.

I'm sure the tech guys know whet they're doing, its the accountants who have the real control

amacachi

EnterNow wrote: »

I'm sure the tech guys know whet they're doing, its the accountants who have the real control

That's kinda what I meant. At the same time though I'm sure it would've cost MS a lot less to build the thing properly in the first place.

CiDeRmAn

Big problem now is no contacting Sony, the phone number is disconnected and man its frustrating!
Good to hear others having the same trouble, means I'm not imagining it.

Myrddin

amacachi wrote: »

That's kinda what I meant. At the same time though I'm sure it would've cost MS a lot less to build the thing properly in the first place.

It would have been a built in cost at one stage, x amount of replacements, x amount of repairs versus x amount of sales = a viable design. That obviously changed at some stage, & was reassessed. They extended the warranty & acknowledged the problem, rather than face a possible increasing amount of claims etc.

I don't know what Sony are at by denying any issues, they've been far more bull headed when it comes to not tarnishing their name. Ironically, denying an issue to thousands of valid, paying customers, tarnished their name far more than offering a free replacement did.

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Big problem now is no contacting Sony, the phone number is disconnected and man its frustrating!
Good to hear others having the same trouble, means I'm not imagining it.

Dreadful stuff by Sony, really really bad that you cannot even lodge a phone call at this stage.

Jamie Starr

I've seen a one or two comments from people on Kotaku about this. I actually tend to download updates for my PS3 or the games only after I've heard nothing bad about them. Just look at Obsidian: a big developer, who'd already put out the game with tons of bugs, pushing a save-deleting, game-destroying update for Fallout NV, then going "oh ****!" a few hours later and telling people not to download it.

My PS3's a few years old, and if it does crash on me I seriously doubt I'll buy another games machine of any kind. If I can still turn on my N64, my PS3 should last more that 4 years. Already have my fourth 360, which I no longer play since I don't have the confidence to buy a game for it.

We had to badger GAME and Microsoft multiple times, and were rewarded for it. Remember, if you can prove that your item wasn't of merchantable quality, go to the shop you bought it from and demand they refund you or replace it. Don't buy any "it's the company's fault" bullsh*t that they sell you (even though it is Sony's fault), your consumer rights place your complaint firmly with the retailer. If you maintain raving-loon levels of persistence, I doubt you'll end up empty handed.

CiDeRmAn

Well, I know the guys who own Gamestop here, don't really like bugging them over a personal problem like this, with my console.
The console is way way out of warranty, I bought it in 2007 but, as I said, I should still be expected to not have it implode, even if it wasn't the fault of the update.

It was really weird too, I watched a media file after it downloaded and restarted, no problems, I didn't attempt to log onto PSN at this point as I didn't have time.
Then, after switching it off, I went to bed, then to work the following morning, nipped home on my lunch break, turned it on, then flashy flashy red light!

I don't know wtf is going on!

The Shtig

I'm thinking it is the update as well, exact same has happened to me. It's also a 60g launch console.

I downloaded the update last night and played COD offline for three hours or so.
Earlier I tried getting online but to no avail so I set up a new account. Just as I load up COD to play online it switches off with the red flashing light. Surely it can't be a coincidence...

Cots1

My 60 gig is fine played about 2 hours of cod yesterday and about 2 hours of fifa today might go easy on it for awhile after hearing this.

The Shtig

Cots1 wrote: »

My 60 gig is fine played about 2 hours of cod yesterday and about 2 hours of fifa today might go easy on it for awhile after hearing this.

It would be the best thing to do and see how it turns out.

CiDeRmAn

I finally got an email off to Sony but got an automated reply saying they were very busy and would get to my problem eventually.

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

I finally got an email off to Sony but got an automated reply saying they were very busy and would get to my problem eventually.

It's no excuse not to have a small team logging phone calls, & queing them up for replies. I wish I could have done that in some of my past jobs, "Yep, I reckon I'm swamped here. F*@* everyone else I'm switching on my out of office assistant, good luck to them". Nice attitute isn't it

JohnMarston

wait a minute, why are peoples consoles crashing? Was there an update from sony or what? I haven't been on my ps3 in a week

Myrddin

JohnMarston wrote: »

wait a minute, why are peoples consoles crashing? Was there an update from sony or what? I haven't been on my ps3 in a week

Its not specific to this update, generally there's a wave of ylod/rrod/bd drive problems after most updates. There are reports here & various other forums of it happening again after updating to 3.61

Beefy78

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

It was really weird too, I watched a media file after it downloaded and restarted, no problems, I didn't attempt to log onto PSN at this point as I didn't have time.
Then, after switching it off, I went to bed, then to work the following morning, nipped home on my lunch break, turned it on, then flashy flashy red light!

I don't know wtf is going on!

Mine went after an hour of play as it was loading up a game of FIFA. I knew I should have stuck with Pro Evo.

JohnMarston

EnterNow wrote: »

Its not specific to this update, generally there's a wave of ylod/rrod/bd drive problems after most updates. There are reports here & various other forums of it happening again after updating to 3.61

Methinks i'll wait for a while before installing updates

noodler

Its a terrible thing to suggest again but with 35m PS3s in the world you'd imagine some break everyday.

Anyway, haven't tried mine since the update complted so maybe I will change my tune if it ain't working - then again I don't have a 60gb at least.

padair

noodler wrote: »

Its a terrible thing to suggest again but with 35m PS3s in the world you'd imagine some break everyday.

Anyway, haven't tried mine since the update complted so maybe I will change my tune if it ain't working - then again I don't have a 60gb at least.

Down with this sort of thing :mad:

Myrddin

noodler wrote: »

Its a terrible thing to suggest again but with 35m PS3s in the world you'd imagine some break everyday.

Anyway, haven't tried mine since the update complted so maybe I will change my tune if it ain't working - then again I don't have a 60gb at least.

Of course some break, thats normal. Its when loads of them break after an update, well, thats a bit different. You'd also imagine that given the known temps under the cpu/gpu, Sony would utilise better design materials in thermal sensitive areas.

The point can be argued day & night, but at the end of the day, the Xbox 360 (up until recently) & the PS3 (currently) have sub standard cooling designs. Coupled with lead-free solder, statistically speaking, they will break down more then they should.

To be honest if I were a Sony accountant looking at cost effective solutions, I'd be advising that the next update should be increasing the supply to the cooling fans by 15/20% when the gpu is under load. It would cost nothing, it'd cool the PS3 much better, & failure rates would drop. Yes it'd be a bit noisier, but I'm sure given the choice, Ciderman would happily live with it rather than risk what has happened. Simple, but then again, this is Sony after all. To do so would be to admit there was a problem in the first place

noodler

You can repeat all that again - sure.

I am not saying anymore then there are 35,000,000 PS3s out there.

Chances are that 100 could break every day and you would hear nothing about but because this 100 broke at the same of an update (which happen several times per year) alot of people are more likely to try and make a connection.

I am not arguing one way or another because I don't know the issue with writing to flash.

If it is just a flash problem (rather than a hard ware problem) isn't there a debug solution on the net?

EDIT: Some menu you can access? I saw such a video showing how it can be done a fair few times.

Myrddin

noodler wrote: »

You can repeat all that again - sure.

I am not saying anymore then there are 35,000,000 PS3s out there.

Chances are that 100 could break every day and you would hear nothing about but because this 100 broke at the same of an update (which happen several times per year) alot of people are more likely to try and make a connection.

I am not arguing one way or another because I don't know the issue with writing to flash.

If it is just a flash problem (rather than a hard ware problem) isn't there a debug solution on the net?

EDIT: Some menu you can access? I saw such a video showing how it can be done a fair few times.

An corrupted boot loader, or something critical to loading the OS would be indicative of a bad flash write. This means that while the consolemay survive the initial flash, on the next boot there are critical processes which can't be run, & as such the OS won't load, nor will any diagnostic menus. This is the danger of flash programming, & it can happen on anything from mobile phones to washing machines. But because flash writing is so often, & is mandatory on the PS3 & 360, the risks are obviously increased.

Nobody here is saying all these problems are caused by updates, I myself said most are not - but some are, the nature of writing to flash guarantees that.

Problems caused by poor cooling/overheating are not releated to updates. In a lot of cases yes, the customer can be to blame by placing the console in a poorly ventilated area. But there are those, many in fact, who treat the console perfectly well & it breaks for no reason, well, no reason except a poor internal cooling solotion (Xbox 360's up to Jasper level, & all current PS3's).

Jamie Starr

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

Well, I know the guys who own Gamestop here, don't really like bugging them over a personal problem like this, with my console.

I would think it's the only way you're going to get a solution in a decent amount of time though. If you know the guys working there, then you might not have to "get medieval" on them or anything, and it'd be a lot easier. I really don't think, especially with the Sony situation as it currently stands, you're going to get much out of some IT bloke on their books. The automated e-mail's a good indicator of that.

The fact is that you don't think you got a long enough run out of you PS3, you haven't tampered with it in any way, even if it is out of warranty you should go to the shop, talk to a manager and get some answers. You're fully in the right to do it. Technically Sony don't have to give you a satisfactory answer, but the shop does.

I'm not usually a pushy person, but after my 360 fiasco it opened my eyes a bit as to how things get done.

Best of luck, whatever happens anyway. I think I'll hold out till at least the weekend before I update my PS3. I won't have anything I want to play on it until I get LA Noire, so it's no biggie smalls.