False Flag Terrorism

King Mob · 18-05-2011 12:55pm

Hookah wrote: »

You're basically asserting the there are no grounds for a conspiracy theory, and that any conjecture in that direction is nonsense.

Any other response I make would be nonsensical.

All very well, except the Fox reporter claims Silverstein rang the insurer to discus a controlled demolition.
.
I was honest. I said I 'believed' it was live.

I've had this already with you. You apply your conjecture, I apply my conjecture. You can't prove your conjecture, I can't prove my conjecture.

There is no resolving it.

Except your conjecture has been shown to be flawed and nonsensical.
I've pointed out the massive flaws in your conjecture and you've ignored those points because you can't address them. You've failed to show anything wrong with my conjecture.

Pretty resolvable if you ask me.

Di0genes · 18-05-2011 1:28pm

Hookah wrote: »

You were right that other buildings needed to be destroyed and that WTC7 was the only building that fell. Yes.

But all these buildings had suffered critical damage. They were going to need demolishing. By a quirk of fate, WTC 7 received more damage then the buildings around it.

I think you'll find that you didn't.

I think you'll find you're now contradicting yourself.

First I posted a theory why the building was rigged. Next you asked me why was the building rigged. Then I told you I already posited a theory. And then you claimed to have presented flaws in that theory, despite obvioulsy having missed the theory the first time.

I have presented flaws in the theory.

Why blow up building 7?

If building seven was going to be so badly damage by the fire, and the rubble your demolition charges need to survive all that damage.

But it did for 2.25 seconds, meaning nothing at all was there to support the building.

There wasn't.

The building was built over a con ed power station, and a subway station. It had a unique design structure.

The bulk of the building was supported by single column the removal of the column caused the building to collapse for a handful of second at freefall speed.

If this was part of the conspiracy, there must have been some reason.

Thats simply not good enough. You can't say

WTC 7 is the key to the whole conspiracy.....they rigged the building for demolition for some reason

You don't have motive.

All that missing gold, for example.

You're confusing the plot of Die Hard 4 with reality.

Officials finally reached the trove Tuesday after removing a 10-wheel truck and several cars that had been crushed by the debris. No bodies were recovered. More than 100 armed officers watched the workers. The contents of the vaults had to be removed because authorities need to demolish the building.

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/reuters_international.html

That is what I said.

So you also must know that

A) these building were no where near the size of the WTC

And were completely empty.

Mark Loizeaux, President of CDI, called Hudson’s the greatest dynamic structural control challenge the company had ever faced. CDI had to sever the steel in the columns and create a delay system which could simultaneously control the failure of the building’s 12 different structural configurations, while trying to keep the hundreds of thousands of tons of debris within the 420 ft by 220 ft footprint of the structure. CDI needed structural data to complete its design. Under CDI direction, Homrich/NASDI’s 21 man crew needed three months to investigate the complex and four months to complete preparations for CDI’s implosion design. During that period, the lower two basements of the structure were filled with engineered fill and the perimeter basement walls bermed to 1st basement level with soil to support perimeter walls which would surely have failed under soil and hydrostatic loads once the horizontal support of the Hudson’s internal structure was removed by the implosion.

Double column rows installed in the structure between vertical construction phases, internal brick shear walls, x-bracing, 70 elevators and 10 stairwells created an extremely stiff frame. Columns weighing over 500 lb/ft, having up to 7.25 inch thick laminated steel flanges and 6 inch thick webs, defied commercially available shaped charge technology. CDI analyzed each column, determined the actual load it carried and then used cutting torches to scarf-off steel plates in order to use smaller shaped charges to cut the remaining steel. CDI wanted to keep the charges as small as possible to reduce air over pressure that could break windows in adjacent properties.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/jl-hudson-department-store

Do you really think that kind of work can occur in a building with full occupancy?

Ok. It's still an odd conversation to have with his insurer, given the context.

Odd? Odd?

Thats a freaking understatement. Could you imagine ringing your insurance agency and asking about theft insurance in your house, and then a few hours later, reporting your house was burgled

Think that but on a massive scale.

Furthermore if WTC 7 is prerigged that is proof of foreknowledge, which makes Silverstein complicit in about 3,000 homicides.

I think you might get the death penalty for that.

If Silverstein admitted this to his insurance company, this entire vast humongous, evil criminal conspiracy is brought to it's knees, because Larry wants a couple of hundred million in insurance money

Oh and before you think "Thats good enough motive for anyone"

Think on this;

Larry Silverstein has been paying rent on the Ground Zero site for over a decade.

The cost of the rent of a fairly massive building site is

more money than the insurance pay out he got in the first place

The man lost money out of THIS!

I paid attention when you said it wasn't an industry term, and with a few minutes work I discovered two examples of where it was.

And the term was correct in that instance they were "pulling" the WTC 6 pulling = "demolishing a building using mechanical equipment "

pulling does not equal "demolishing a building using Controlled Demolition."

I've said that from the beginning must I post up the links to it again

?

I didn't finish that sentence. You said.

If he was complicit, and if he did slip up on national television, that would be mental. Yes.

What I should have said was;

So you're agreed that this conspiracies central plank is the idea that Larry Silverstein confesses to a capital crime on national television is perhaps one of the most idiotic parts of the 911 conspiracy theories.

Di0genes · 18-05-2011 1:35pm

All very well, except the Fox reporter claims Silverstein rang the insurer to discus a controlled demolition.

I think if anything this goes to show, just how powerless Silverstein was. He was discussing the mechanics and the logistics of the controlled demolition, he just heard it being discussed and rang his insurers to check if the Firefighters decided to demolish the building, would his insurance be void.

It show's Larry had no idea of the logistics of controlled demolition, how on that Day, the idea of rigging, or pulling Building Seven would have been impossible, and it was of course Moot, as described by dozens of Firemen on the day, there was no way building 7 was going to stay up

1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110313.PDF

3. [Shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.
Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?
Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.
Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.
–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)
15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.
The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)

Hookah · 18-05-2011 3:29pm

Di0genes wrote: »

But all these buildings had suffered critical damage. They were going to need demolishing. By a quirk of fate, WTC 7 received more damage then the buildings around it.

Are there photos of this extensive damage?

I think you'll find you're now contradicting yourself.

I have presented flaws in the theory.

I think you'll find it's there in black and white, or blue and blue, depending on the interface you're using.

Why blow up building 7?

I've already posited a thoery on that.

If building seven was going to be so badly damage by the fire, and the rubble your demolition charges need to survive all that damage.

That would be correct for the hypothesis to hold.

There wasn't.

Obviously not.

The building was built over a con ed power station, and a subway station. It had a unique design structure.

The bulk of the building was supported by single column the removal of the column caused the building to collapse for a handful of second at freefall speed.

And the 58 perimiter and 25 core columns also failed simultaneously?

Thats simply not good enough. You can't say

WTC 7 is the key to the whole conspiracy.....they rigged the building for demolition for some reason

You don't have motive.

It had offices of the Secret Service, CIA, Securities and Exchage Commission etc. Perhaps these were the targets.

You're confusing the plot of Die Hard 4 with reality.

I was sure I saw Jeremy Irons emerge from the WTC7 rubble.

This has been debunked so?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/reuters_international.html

Snoop Dog?

So you also must know that

A) these building were no where near the size of the WTC

And were completely empty.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/jl-hudson-department-store

Do you really think that kind of work can occur in a building with full occupancy?

It would certainly require a high level of ingenuity and a great deal of stealth.

Odd? Odd?

Thats a freaking understatement. Could you imagine ringing your insurance agency and asking about theft insurance in your house, and then a few hours later, reporting your house was burgled

Think that but on a massive scale.

Furthermore if WTC 7 is prerigged that is proof of foreknowledge, which makes Silverstein complicit in about 3,000 homicides.

I think you might get the death penalty for that.

If Silverstein admitted this to his insurance company, this entire vast humongous, evil criminal conspiracy is brought to it's knees, because Larry wants a couple of hundred million in insurance money

Oh and before you think "Thats good enough motive for anyone"

Think on this;

Larry Silverstein has been paying rent on the Ground Zero site for over a decade.

The cost of the rent of a fairly massive building site is

more money than the insurance pay out he got in the first place

The man lost money out of THIS!

I know he lost money. I've never claimed it was an insurance scam. I'm just pointing out the unfortunate nature of the coincidence.

I didn't finish that sentence. You said.

What I should have said was;

So you're agreed that this conspiracies central plank is the idea that Larry Silverstein confesses to a capital crime on national television is perhaps one of the most idiotic parts of the 911 conspiracy theories.

I agree. If he were complicit it would be most idiotic for him to admit it on national television.

Hookah · 18-05-2011 3:32pm

Di0genes wrote: »

I think if anything this goes to show, just how powerless Silverstein was. He was discussing the mechanics and the logistics of the controlled demolition, he just heard it being discussed and rang his insurers to check if the Firefighters decided to demolish the building, would his insurance be void.

It show's Larry had no idea of the logistics of controlled demolition, how on that Day, the idea of rigging, or pulling Building Seven would have been impossible, and it was of course Moot, as described by dozens of Firemen on the day, there was no way building 7 was going to stay up

I haven't time right now to examine each of those statements in detail, but I'm curious how, if no skyscraper ever collapsed due to fire in previous history, the firefighters were so sure building 7 would collapse that day.

Hookah · 18-05-2011 3:33pm

King Mob wrote: »

Except your conjecture has been shown to be flawed and nonsensical.
I've pointed out the massive flaws in your conjecture and you've ignored those points because you can't address them. You've failed to show anything wrong with my conjecture.

Pretty resolvable if you ask me.

You've convinced me.

The entire conspiracy is groundless.

Goodbye.

Lefticus Loonaticus · 18-05-2011 3:42pm

Di0genes wrote: »

I literally cannot find a source for that.

I'm not saying you're making it up, I think you got it wrong.

A spanish mini documentary on youtube makes the calm about the Nato drills.
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRuIIqVDKQ&feature=related

King Mob · 18-05-2011 3:46pm

Hookah wrote: »

Are there photos of this extensive damage?

Yes, but surprisingly you never see them on CT websites.
Banker's Trust Building, which was across the road from the WTC. and in fact only just finished being deconstructed.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/FEMA_-_4019_-_Photograph_by_Michael_Rieger_taken_on_09-21-2001_in_New_York.jpg

Another damaged building with massive smoke coming from WTC7 in the background:

WTC6: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Six_WTC_SW_Corner.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/6-wtc-photo.jpg

WTC3: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/WTC1.jpg

WTC5: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3a/5-wtc-photo.jpg

WTC4: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/4-Wtc-photo.jpg

And WTC7:

You know, if the government were failing to publish photos like these, the CT crowd would be screaming bloody coverup.

King Mob · 18-05-2011 3:48pm

Hookah wrote: »

You've convinced me.

The entire conspiracy is groundless.

Goodbye.

A mature response:rolleyes:

But if you ever feel like actually examining your beliefs in an honest way, those points are still there.

Di0genes · 18-05-2011 4:18pm

Hookah wrote: »

I haven't time right now to examine each of those statements in detail, but I'm curious how, if no skyscraper ever collapsed due to fire in previous history, the firefighters were so sure building 7 would collapse that day.

Firstly that's simply not true

The McCormick Center in Chicago and the Sight and Sound Theater in Pennsylvania are examples of steel structures collapsing. The theater was fire protected using drywall and spray on material. A high rise in Philly didn't collapse after a long fire but firefighters evacuated the building when a pancake structural collapse was considered likely. Other steel-framed buildings partially collapsed due fires one after only 20 minutes.

The steel framed McCormick Center was at the time the World's largest exhibition center. It like the WTC used long steel trusses to create a large open space without columns. Those trusses were unprotected but of course much of the WTC lost it's fire protection due to the impacts.

"As an example of the damaging effect of fire on steel, in 1967, the original heavy steel-constructed McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire."

http://www.wconline.com/CDA/Archive/
24ae78779d768010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____

[Note this article has several comments from engineers who back the
WTC collapse theory.]

"The unprotected steel roof trusses failed early on in the fire"

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/disasters/mccormick_fire.html

The McCormick Place fire "is significant because it illustrates the fact that steel-frame buildings can collapse as a result of exposure to fire. This is true for all types of construction materials, not only steel." wrote Robert Berhinig, associate manager of UL's Fire Protection Division and a registered professional engineer. He also discusses UL's steel fire certification much more knowledgably than Kevin Ryan. He is an example of one more highly qualified engineer who supports the collapse theory.

http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/02_d/berhinig.htm

From the FEMA report of the theater fire, my comments in [ ]
www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf/Tr-097.pdf

On the morning of January 28, 1997, in the Lancaster County, Pennsylvania township of Strasburg, a fire caused the collapse of the state-of-the-art, seven year old Sight and Sound Theater and resulted in structural damage to most of the connecting buildings.
The theater was a total loss, valued at over $15 million.

pg 6/74

The theater was built of steel rigid frame construction to allow for the large open space of the auditorium, unobstructed by columns... The interior finish in the auditorium was drywall.

The stage storage area, prop assembly building, and prop maintenance building were protected with a sprayed-on fire resistant coating on all structural steel. The plans called for the coating to meet a two-hour fire resistance assembly rating. The sprayed-on coating, which was susceptible to damage from the movement of theater equipment, was protected by attaching plywood coverings on the columns to a height of eight feet.

The walls of the storage area beneath the stage were layered drywall to provide a two-hour fire protection rating for the mezzanine offices [the WTC used drywall as fire protection in the central core] , and sprayed-on fire-resistant coatings on the structural
steel columns and ceiling bar joists supporting the stage floor.
pg 15/74

The two theater employees told the State Police Fire Investigator that when they first discovered the fire they noticed that the sprayed-on fire proofing had been knocked off the underside of the stage floor bar joists and support steel. The fire proofing was hanging on the wire mesh used to hold the coating to the overhead. The investigation revealed that the construction company's removal of the stage floor covering down to the corrugated decking involved striking the floor hard enough to knock off the sprayed-on protection, exposing the structural steel and bar-joists in the storage area. [The theater's spray-on fireproofing was newer and more modern than at the WTC, The theater was only seven years old. If striking the floor during renovations was enough to dislodge it imagine the impact of a 767]

pg 16/74

Temperatures of 1000° F can cause buckling and temperatures of 1500° F can cause steel to lose strength and collapse. When the heat and hot gases reached the stage ceiling they extended horizontally into the auditorium, causing the roof to fail all the way to the lobby fire wall. The fire also extended horizontally from the stage to the elevated hallway, causing the structural steel to fail and buckle in the prop assembly and prop maintenance buildings

pg 17/74

Once the heat of the fire caused the structural steel to fail in the storage area (aided by the damage to the sprayed-on fire protection during renovation), interior firefighting became too hazardous to continue. The truck crews ventilating the roof noted metal
discoloration and buckling steel.

pg. 21/74

The two hour fire resistance-rated assembly in the storage area beneath the stage was damaged during the stage floor renovation, leaving the structural members unprotected from the ensuing fire.

pg. 26/74

Buildings constructed of steel should, in effect, be considered unprotected and capable of collapse from fire in as few as ten minutes. Fire resistant coatings sprayed onto structural steel are susceptible to damage from construction work.

The impact of fire and heat on structural steel members warrant extreme caution by firefighters.

pg. 36/74
Unless the steel members are cooled with high-volume hose streams, the fire's heat can rapidly cause steel to lose its strength and contribute to building collapse.
pg. 37/74

Other Fires

In February 1991, a fire broke out in One Meridian Plaza - a 38 story office building in Philadelphia. The building was built during the same period as the WTC and had spray-on fire protection on its steel frame. Despite not suffering impact damage, authorities were worried it might collapse.

"All interior firefighting efforts were halted after almost 11 hours of uninterrupted fire in the building. Consultation with a structural engineer and structural damage observed by units operating in the building led to the belief that there was a
possibility of a pancake structural collapse of the fire damaged
floors."

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/txt/publications/tr-049.txt

About 2 years later, the NYFD was concerned that a steel framed building that partially collapsed during after a gas explosion might collapse entirely due to the resulting fire.

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-068.pdf

Part of a floor of an unprotected steel frame building collapsed in Brackenridge, Pennsylvania on, December 20, 1991, Killing 4 volunteer firemen
http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/TR-061.pdf

Part of the roof of a steel framed school in Virginia collapsed about 20 minutes after fire broke out

http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/tr-135.pdf

And secondly no Steel framed skyscraper had ever been hit with debris from a collapsing additional skyscraper(s) (WTC 1+2) and were.

So for starts the basis premise of your claim is false. As mentioned from, the plethora of quotes, I doubt the firemen cared about the historical impact of a building collapse but instead were looking at the visible signs of a building in serious distress, I'll repeat the quotes

1. The major concern at that time was number Seven, building number Seven, which had taken a big hit from the north tower. When it fell, it ripped steel out from between the third and sixth floors across the facade on Vesey Street. We were concerned that the fires on several floors and the missing steel would result in the building collapsing. –FDNY Chief Frank Fellini

2. At that time, other firefighters started showing up, Deputy Battalion Chief Paul Ferran of the 41 Battalion, and James Savastano of the First Division assigned to the Second Battalion showed up and we attempted to search and extinguish, at the time which was small pockets of fire in 7 World Trade Center. We were unaware of the damage in the front of 7, because we were entering from the northeast entrance. We weren't aware of the magnitude of the damage in the front of the building. – FDNY Captain Anthony Varriale http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110313.PDF

3. [Shortly after the tower collapses] I don’t know how long this was going on, but I remember standing there looking over at building 7 and realizing that a big chunk of the lower floors had been taken out on the Vesey Street side. I looked up at the building and I saw smoke in it, but I really didn't see any fire at that time. Deputy ––Chief Nick Visconti http://tinyurl.com/paqux

4. A few minutes after that a police officer came up to me and told me that the façade in front of Seven World Trade Center was gone and they thought there was an imminent collapse of Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Lieutenant William Melarango http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110045.PDF

5. I think they said they had seven to ten floors that were freestanding and they weren't going to send anyone in. –FDNY Chief Thomas McCarthy http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110055.PDF

6. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hose line operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too.

Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandeis came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.
Firehouse Magazine: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?
Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.
Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?
Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered through there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. – Capt. Chris Boyle http://tinyurl.com/e7bzp

7. After the initial blast, Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city's corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion [the collapse of the north tower]. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. "I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell," Jennings said. http://www.record-eagle.com/2001/sep/11scene.htm

8. Anyway, I was looking at WTC7 and I noticed that it wasn’t looking like it was straight. It was really weird. The closest corner to me (the SE corner) was kind of out of whack with the SW corner. It was impossible to tell whether that corner (the SW) was leaning over more or even if it was leaning the other way. With all of the smoke and the debris pile, I couldn’t exactly tell what was going on, but I sure could see the building was leaning over in a way it certainly should not be. I asked another guy looking with me and he said “That building is going to come down, we better get out of here.” So we did. –M.J., Employed at 45 Broadway, in a letter to me.

9. So we left 7 World Trade Center, back down to the street, where I ran into Chief Coloe from the 1st Division, Captain Varriale, Engine 24, and Captain Varriale told Chief Coloe and myself that 7 World Trade Center was badly damaged on the south side and definitely in danger of collapse. Chief Coloe said we were going to evacuate the collapse zone around 7 World Trade Center, which we did. – FDNY Lieutenant Rudolph Weindler http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110462.PDF

10. Just moments before the south tower collapsed and, you know, when it happened we didn't know it was the south tower. We thought it was the north tower. There was a reporter of some sort, female with blond hair and her cameraman, an oriental fellow. They were setting up outside 7 World Trade Center, just east of the pedestrian bridge. I told them it would probably be better off to be set up under the bridge. At least it was protected. I was just about to enter a dialogue with her when I heard a sound I never heard before. I looked up and saw this huge cloud. I told him run. I grabbed the female, I threw her through the revolving doors of number 7.

We were proceeding inside. She fell to the ground. I helped her out, I pushed her towards the direction of where we were all in the south corner and there was a little doorway behind that desk which led into the loading bays. Everybody started to run through that. Never made it to that door. The next thing that I remember was that I was covered in some glass and some debris. Everything came crashing through the front of number 7. It was totally pitch black.

Q. Were you injured?

A. Yes, I saw some stuff had fallen on me. I didn't believe that I was injured at that time. I discovered later on I was injured. I had some shards of glass impaled in my head, but once I was able to get all this debris and rubble off of me and cover my face with my jacket so that I could breathe, it was very thick dust, you couldn't see. We heard some sounds. We reached out and felt our way around. I managed to find some other people in this lower lobby. We crawled over towards the direction where we thought the door was and as we approached it the door cracked open a little, so we had the lights from the loading bay. We made our way over there. The loading bay doors were 3-fourths of the way shut when this happened, so they took a lot of dust in there, but everyone in those bays was safe and secure. We had face to face contact with Chief Maggio and Captain Nahmod. They told me – I said do whatever you need to do, get these people out of here. Go, go towards the water. –EMS Division Chief Jon Peruggia
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110160.PDF

11. You could see the damage at 7 World Trade Center, the damage into the AT&T building.
–FDNY Firefighter Vincent Palmieri http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110258.PDF

12. At this point, 7, which is right there on Vesey, the whole corner of the building was missing. I was thinking to myself we are in a bad place, because it was the corner facing us. –Fred Marsilla, FDNY
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110399.PDF

13. The way we got into the loading dock [of WTC 7] was not the way we were getting out. It was obstructed.

Q. The door was blocked?

A. Yeah, and we found our way -- we walked across the loading dock area, and we found there was another door. We went in that door, and from there we were directed to -- I really guess it was like a basement area of the building, but we were directed to an opposite door. –Dr. Michael Guttenberg , NYC Office of Medical Affairs http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110005.PDF

14. We eventually ended up meeting after the second explosion, three of us met up here, but I didn't see a lot of the people that were with me until two, three days later. I got word that they were okay. For instance, Dr. Guttenberg and Dr. Asaeda, who were at 7 World Trade Center, they got trapped in there and had to like climb in and out and get out because that building also became very damaged supposedly and they were there. We thought they were dead. I guess he was in an area where Commissioner Tierney might have been, I believe. I think she was in 7 also. –Paramedic Manuel Delgado http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110004.PDF

(After collapse of south tower)
15. The decision was either to go left or right and we ended up going right, between the two buildings, in the alleyway on the north, which turned out to be the right direction because apparently there was a lot of debris and part of 7 down already. Also, I did notice as I was making my exit the sound of the firefighters' alarms indicating that they were down. I did remember that as well but just could not see anything. –Dr. Glenn Asaeda http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/sept11_fdny_transcripts/9110062.PDF

16. I saw the firefighter. There were people screaming out of one of these two buildings over here saying they couldn't get out, and my partner took one straggler fireman, the one that we had with us, and was trying to break the door because the door obviously had shifted or something. They couldn't get the door open.

Q: That was 7 World Trade Center?

A: I believe it was 7. Maybe it was 5. It was at the back end of it because I do remember the telephone company [which is next to building 7]. So I think it was the back end of 7, I think right over here at that point, and they couldn't get out. Then I had ran down the block and I flagged a ladder company and they brought the ladder, which they had like a vestibule that you couldn't like really reach the people because the ladder wouldn't reach. So they went and got other resources, they went inside the building, and I told my partner that it wasn't safe and that we need to go because everything around us was like falling apart. –EMT Nicole Ferrell http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110304.PDF

17. The whole south side of Seven World Trade had been hit by the collapse of the second Tower. – Fire Captain Brenda Berkman (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 213)

18. At that point, they said that Seven World Trade had no face and it was ready to collapse. – EMT Mercedes Rivera: (Susan Hagen and Mary Carouba, Women at Ground Zero, 2002, p. 29)

19. You see the white smoke, you see the thing leaning like this? It's definitely going. There's no way to stop it. 'Cause you have to go up in there to put it out, and it's already, the structural integrity is not there. –Unidentified firefighter in this video.

20. As far as I was concerned, we were still trapped. I was hopeful. things were looking a whole lot better now than they were just a few minutes earlier, but we were a long way from safe and sound. Five World Trade Center was fully involved, Six World Trade Center was roaring pretty good, and behind them Seven World Trade Center was teetering on collapse.
The buildings just behind him and to his left were looking like they too might collapse at any time, and there were whole chunks of concrete falling to both sides. Flames dancing everywhere. The small-arms detonations were kicking up a notch or two, and it sounded like this poor guy was being fired at, by snipers or unseen terrorists, at close range. (Last Man Down by Richard Picciotto, FDNY Battalion Commander Penguin Books, 2002. page 191)

Just read the bits in bold. These are trained professionals watching a building in serious distress.

"teetering to collapse", "structural integrity is not there" "corner of building missing." "badly damaged and in danger of collapse".

ed2hands · 18-05-2011 4:20pm

King Mob wrote: »

A mature response:rolleyes:

But if you ever feel like actually examining your beliefs in an honest way, those points are still there.

Thats not very nice now is it King Mob? Immature? Dishonest?
TUT TUT! Either he was being sarcastic or genuine. Probably the former.

Di0genes · 18-05-2011 4:40pm

Hookah wrote: »

Are there photos of this extensive damage?

King Mob has provided them

I think you'll find it's there in black and white, or blue and blue, depending on the interface you're using.

Yes and I've pointed out the extensive flaws in the theory.

I've already posited a thoery on that.

And I've pointed out the problems in it.

That would be correct for the hypothesis to hold.

But also improbable, we've pointed out the extensive damage and fires, that would have compromised the explosives.

And heres the next question. Why rig a building to demolish if it's probably going to be damaged.

And the 58 perimiter and 25 core columns also failed simultaneously?

They didn't which is why the building was in freefall for a mere 2.5 seconds of it's collapse.

It had offices of the Secret Service, CIA, Securities and Exchage Commission etc. Perhaps these were the targets.

Why target anonymous field offices?

Why not target the CIA headquarters in Langley?

FBI headquarters in Washington TC

The Department of the Treasury.

The WTC 7 is simply not a valuable target.

I was sure I saw Jeremy Irons emerge from the WTC7 rubble.

This has been debunked so?

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/gold.html

Snoop Dog?

Did you even read my link

The gold and silver was recovered!

It would certainly require a high level of ingenuity and a great deal of stealth.

It.

Would.

Be.

Impossible.

I know he lost money. I've never claimed it was an insurance scam. I'm just pointing out the unfortunate nature of the coincidence.

There is no coincidence.

I agree. If he were complicit it would be most idiotic for him to admit it on national television.

So we'll drop all the nonsense about Silverstein, and phoning his insurance company as part of the conspiracy then?

Di0genes · 18-05-2011 4:46pm

Lefticus Loonaticus wrote: »

A spanish mini documentary on youtube makes the calm about the Nato drills.
Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRuIIqVDKQ&feature=related

I'll need a better source than some anonymous Youtube video

I just don't believe it.

Hookah · 18-05-2011 5:34pm

Di0genes wrote: »

Firstly that's simply not true

Is it not true that no skyscraper ever suffered a complete collapse before 9/11?

The McCormick building was a roof collapse only.

And secondly no Steel framed skyscraper had ever been hit with debris from a collapsing additional skyscraper(s) (WTC 1+2) and were.

The only photo I can find of WTC7 shows a section of one corner missing. Hardly enough to cause all the supporting colums to collapse.

So for starts the basis premise of your claim is false.

Sure? I got it from a debunker on JREF. I can show you a table stating the same,if you wish, from the NIST report, I believe.

As mentioned from, the plethora of quotes, I doubt the firemen cared about the historical impact of a building collapse but instead were looking at the visible signs of a building in serious distress, I'll repeat the quotes

]Just read the bits in bold. These are trained professionals watching a building in serious distress.

"teetering to collapse", "structural integrity is not there" "corner of building missing." "badly damaged and in danger of collapse".

To what type of collapse are they referring to?

A collapse of the facade?

A partial collapse of the building?

A total collapse of the building?

And why wouldn't the history of building collapses impact upon their thinking?

King Mob · 18-05-2011 5:43pm

Hookah wrote: »

The only photo I can find of WTC7 shows a section of one corner missing. Hardly enough to cause all the supporting colums to collapse.

And this is where you are being dishonest.
No one is claiming that the WTC7 collapsed due to the damage done by the falling skyscrapers.
They are claiming that it collapsed due to the damage done by the falling skyscrapers as well as the uncontrolled fires on multiple levels.
We've posted pictures showing these fires, but you ignored those. And I'd wager you're still going to use the old "the fires were only small" nugget.

Also the section of one corner missing is nearly 20 stories high. And there's plenty of testimony as posted by Diogenes were firefighter explain the extent of the damage.

Hookah · 18-05-2011 5:47pm

Di0genes wrote: »

Yes and I've pointed out the extensive flaws in the theory.

And I've pointed out the problems in it.

So you keep telling me.

But also improbable, we've pointed out the extensive damage and fires, that would have compromised the explosives.

True. It would take some time to get them right, I suppose.

And heres the next question. Why rig a building to demolish if it's probably going to be damaged.

How would they know it was propably going to be damaged?

They didn't which is why the building was in freefall for a mere 2.5 seconds of it's collapse.

So why was there nothing whatsoever to support the building for those 2.5 seconds?

Why target anonymous field offices?

Why not target the CIA headquarters in Langley?

FBI headquarters in Washington TC

The Department of the Treasury.

The WTC 7 is simply not a valuable target.

Your guess is as good as mine.

Did you even read my link

The gold and silver was recovered!

Did you even read mine?

They discuss different amounts.

It.

Would.

Be.

Impossible.

Impossible or unprecedented?

There is no coincidence

No?

So we'll drop all the nonsense about Silverstein, and phoning his insurance company as part of the conspiracy then?

Sure. Go ahead.

King Mob · 18-05-2011 6:01pm

Hookah wrote: »

How would they know it was propably going to be damaged?

Lol. Most specious argument ever. Well done.

"How would the conspirators who planned to bring down the WTC with explosives know that some skyscrapers were going to fall on it?"

Di0genes · 21-05-2011 2:14pm

Hookah wrote: »

How would they know it was propably going to be damaged?

They supposedly destroyed the WTC with controlled demolition right (this is your theory) Of course the surrounding buildings would be affected.

So why was there nothing whatsoever to support the building for those 2.5 seconds?

The key support was gone.

Your guess is as good as mine.

That's simply not good enough. You're proposing the theory. The onus is on you to support the theory.

Did you even read mine?

They discuss different amounts.

And I'd like a better source.

And I'm sorry, committing this crime for pay out of only a few hundred million doesn't make sense.

How many people's silence do you have to buy?

A few thousand? Divide that payout by a few thousand people and that only a few million apiece.

How much money would you take to silence your part in a crime that murders thousands of people?

Impossible or unprecedented?

Impossible.

Massive structural work needing weeks is required.

Tell me has any building requiring a Controlled Demolition been filled to capacity until the day of demolition.

I'll give you a clue the answer is "No".

Is mise le key · 07-06-2011 8:15am

Meanwhile the US military is deployed around the globe in various wars based on lies, 'POW's' are held indefinetley without trial, suspects are flown to countries where 'intense interrogation' can take place etc.

Who would beleive anything from a government of this calibre?

Brown Bomber · 07-06-2011 8:36am

Is mise le key wrote: »

Who would beleive anything from a government of this calibre?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vi22IP4oMg

enno99 · 07-06-2011 9:49pm

Have a look at this clip if you think a building cant be rigged in secrecy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBjyB8EY2m4

08-06-2011 12:18am

enno99 wrote: »

Have a look at this clip if you think a building cant be rigged in secrecy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBjyB8EY2m4

At the time of 9th Sept 2001 my brother was working in Ted Kennedy's office in Boston, in the federal building as an illegal immigrant, his boss was cosy with Kevin Weeks of the winterhill mob, still is,(weeks was still in prison) anyway my brother went from being called "x" to "y" overnight, his boss got him a bogey ID and my brother still worked through all the uproar, a federal employee noticed the name change and enquired a little, my brother said that in Ireland he had a nickname "x" and that now he was told to be called by his real name "y", and he just continued working unhindered by anybody, they sometimes worked at night so as to not disrupt the day to day workings of whatever they do there, he "could" have planted explosives if he wished, he didn't or wouldn't, but the fact remains that he could have, after a few weeks it was less tight on him as he was known to be a decent fella, but just imagine he wasn't??

Edit:
After 9/11 he still was let in by security unhindered, day or night because they knew his face.

jackiebaron · 09-06-2011 11:19am

King Mob wrote: »

And if you actually watch the entire interview and not just the out of context bits you are fed by CT sites, you'd find the "it" that was pulled was in fact the firefighting operation to try and save the building.

Now if we are to believe in the conspiracy explanation for this, you're going to explain a few things that don't make a bunch of sense.
1. Why were the firefighters fighting the fire at all if it was rigged to blow?
2. Why, if all the towers were rigged to blow, was the decision made to actually blow it up hours later?
3. In the context of the quote, Silverstien specifically says that he didn't order anything, it was the firechief's decision. Why would the decision to blow up a building (as part of a massive conspiracy no less) be left to a fireman?
4. Why in your narrative was the decision left to Silverstien?
5. Since you believe he's involved in and confessing to the greatest crime ever which lead to the murder of 3000 people, why does he say: "We've had such terrible loss of life..."?
6. (and this is the big one) Why the **** does he confess on camera?

Also how come you're not mentioning the "fact" there was only small fires in the building? Do you still believe that?

Let's just focus on that one simple question of yours. You ask why they were fighting the blaze if it was rigged to blow. The very fact that you are asking this question is mind-boggling. It's like you have some kind of complete mental block or something.
Do you think the firemen KNEW that the building was rigged to blow but were spraying it with water just for fun?
Do you think someone who knew it was rigged was simply going to say to them..."stand down guys...this building is rigged to be demolished"?

Are you mad?

jackiebaron · 09-06-2011 11:28am

Di0genes wrote: »

They supposedly destroyed the WTC with controlled demolition right (this is your theory) Of course the surrounding buildings would be affected.

The key support was gone.

That's simply not good enough. You're proposing the theory. The onus is on you to support the theory.

And I'd like a better source.

And I'm sorry, committing this crime for pay out of only a few hundred million doesn't make sense.

How many people's silence do you have to buy?

A few thousand? Divide that payout by a few thousand people and that only a few million apiece.

How much money would you take to silence your part in a crime that murders thousands of people?

Impossible.

Massive structural work needing weeks is required.

Tell me has any building requiring a Controlled Demolition been filled to capacity until the day of demolition.

I'll give you a clue the answer is "No".

DiO, the amount of money at stake here is not a few mere millions....it's hundreds of billions in war contracts, oil contracts, contracts for farcical and quite useless new "security agencies", scanning equipment, ridiculous crap like Homeland Security. Larry's building was insured for something like 5 times what he paid for it. Good payday for Larry.

And as for silencing people....you don't have to buy anyone off. The perpetrators of this crime know full well that all the witnesses in the world who could expose them can shout to the rafter but as long as there are people like you who flatly refuse to even contemplate any scenario other than the one that is "officially" reported then these witnesses are no threat at all.

careca11 · 09-06-2011 11:58am

Lefticus Loonaticus wrote: »

.

Does Al-qaeda as we know it even exist at all?
.

Great article dude ...nice to know I'm not the only one

as for the question "does Al-qaeda exist" , I would say yes it does exist I'm a form believer that al-qaeda are the puppets of the CIA and al-qaeda are based and Camp David , safely tooked up away from prying eyes and ears,

as you have stated above and as was stated time and time again , the details given in the media with regards to the 4 major attacks , simply do not at up...........................................most people know it , but tend to believ what they say (on tv).

A head of CIA once let slip "as long as the CIA control's the media , only the story matters , the facts don't count"
thats very true

careca11 · 09-06-2011 12:07pm

Di0genes wrote: »

They supposedly destroyed the WTC with controlled demolition right (this is your theory) Of course the surrounding buildings would be affected.

The key support was gone.

That's simply not good enough. You're proposing the theory. The onus is on you to support the theory.

And I'd like a better source.

And I'm sorry, committing this crime for pay out of only a few hundred million doesn't make sense.

How many people's silence do you have to buy?

A few thousand? Divide that payout by a few thousand people and that only a few million apiece.

How much money would you take to silence your part in a crime that murders thousands of people?

Impossible.

Massive structural work needing weeks is required.

Tell me has any building requiring a Controlled Demolition been filled to capacity until the day of demolition.

I'll give you a clue the answer is "No".

the people in the tower = collateral damage
this was a demolition job , with very specialised explosives (classified sh1t) , otherwise why are there still 1600 bodies unaccounted for , not a shred of DNA not a fingernail, tooth nothing (that would not be the case if burned by fire , not the case if simply buried in the rubble)
what ever was used to take down these buildings( and it was not jet fuel) vapourised bodies

jackiebaron · 09-06-2011 1:14pm

careca11 wrote: »

the people in the tower = collateral damage
this was a demolition job , with very specialised explosives (classified sh1t) , otherwise why are there still 1600 bodies unaccounted for , not a shred of DNA not a fingernail, tooth nothing (that would not be the case if burned by fire , not the case if simply buried in the rubble)
what ever was used to take down these buildings( and it was not jet fuel) vapourised bodies

Yep, careca, apparently this inferno was enough to melt steel and burn for weeks afterwards but that was still not hot enough to damage one of the "hijacker's" passport that was found just sitting in the rubble :pac::pac::pac:

False Flag Terrorism

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