Things that cost €30 million

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:25pm #1

It would be interesting to have a discussion, if possible, solely on the financial aspect of the British royal visit and the Obama visit.

In the case of the Queen's arrival, there is the question of some sensitive nationalist types having their feelings hurt (as is wont to happen to them), yes there is, also, the risk of civil trouble, or an attack of some sort on the crowd welcoming the QE2. But lets leave that to other threads and have a clinical examination of the cost of both trips, discussing their costs and benefits.

Now first of all, it is not possible to know precisely how much the security for both visits will cost. But the figure of €30m appears to have won acceptance. In the complete absence of any other figures (and in the absence of a denial of this figure by government, when asked), it is the only estimate we can realistically work with, albeit an imperfect estimate.

The Queen's visit will undoubtedly make up the vast bulk of this security cost based on time alone. Considering that they both have similar itineraries, and given that the Obama is only getting ¼ of the exposure to Ireland, we might roughly put the Obama:Queen cost at a ratio of 1:3 .

Now in addition to this security cost, there is a possibility that businesses inside certain security zones may suffer. This is more likely to be an issue for the royal visit than for the Obama visit. The Guinness storehouse, as an example, must close all day on Tuesday and again on Wednesday morning for security clearance. Much smaller businesses may be subject to security curtailments, and will already be suffering from traffic or travel restrictions, both in Dublin and Cork. Losses here are difficult to quantify, but we should know more after the event.

Now we get to the income. If anybody would like to fill me in on this aspect of the visit, I would be very grateful. However, if you are going to provide estimates of income related to the whole thing going swimmingly, I wonder if you might add to that an estimate of losses if things go somewhat less perfectly.

And as per the thread title, and leaving aside any non-security related losses, here are a list of some things that one might do with a €30 million note!

double the school buildings improvement scheme announced in the jobs initiative from €30m to €60m, thereby getting more people back doing a days work and simultaneously improving school buildings.
double the national retrofit programme allocation in the jobs initiative, again from €30m to €60m. This would bring the total allocated to a very impressive €120m, thereby reducing energy bills and aiding employment. The Government said that their recent initiative would create 2,000 new jobs. We could have doubled it.
Wipe out the cost to the exchequer of abolishing the travel tax this year, twice over.
double the amount of money in the Insurance Compensation fund, thereby lessening the levy payable by insurance customers in bailing out Quinn.
Triple the spend on the national internship programme this year, which pays welfare beneficiaries an extra 50 euro per week to get back into working environments.
Buy Dimitar Berbatov to play for Ireland

Any other suggestions are welcome. In the current climate, however, I am sure that your average unemployed man or woman, sitting at home watching a perfectly nice old grandma doing some flower arrangements at the garden of remembrance would much prefer, however, any of the above - particularly those that actually relate to job creation and supply a tangible benefit.

GSF · 15-05-2011 2:38pm

This is just getting tedious now. So basically you are arguing we should have no contact with the outside world if you extrapolate your arguement to its (logical?) conclusion.

I see this policy is working well for North Korea.

You could look up the visitor figures to Ireland from the UK & the US (but you know this as its been posted here many times already).

You could also count the wasted hours of people posting endlessly about this on the internet in terms of national productivity if you want to up your € estimate

Welease · 15-05-2011 2:40pm

Plenty of things cost 30m, and many are not necessary..

However, tourism and the marketing of Ireland are important.. In 2009, tourists spent €3.9 billion in Ireland, which was down 19% from 2008 where they spent almost €4.8 billion..

These trips will make worldwide news especially the Queen's visit, and will be a way for Ireland to market herself GLOBALLY, and start to bring much needed foreign money into Ireland as well as helping ensure the existence of many business's around Ireland that are dependent on tourism..

3.7% of tax revenue comes from foreign tourism, which in 2009 still amounted to almost a billion Euro despite the downturn..
http://www.failteireland.ie/FailteCorp/media/FailteIreland/documents/Research%20and%20Statistics/Tourism%20Facts/Tourism_Facts_2009_544KB.pdf

TheInquisitor · 15-05-2011 2:40pm

If both visits go off well we will get back 10 times the input from future tourism. We are not closing ourselves off to the world. The more world leaders that want to come and visit the better.

We need as many friends as possible

beeftotheheels · 15-05-2011 2:40pm

Well, there is the school of thought that the visits will provide a boost to tourism which will support the jobs initiative measures although it will be difficult to quantify those benefits.

Did you note that we're putting €750k into the Competitive Start-up Fund? Imagine expanding it and putting the €30m in to support small growth businesses, or starting an enterprise investment bank to encourage the domestic economy?

GSF · 15-05-2011 2:43pm

The OP could ask how much it would cost to buy the amount of tv airtime that will be devoted to the visits on UK & US tv perhaps?

I'm guessing it might be at least €30m?

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:43pm

GSF wrote: »

This is just getting tedious now. So basically you are arguing we should have no contact with the outside world if you extrapolate your arguement to its (logical?) conclusion.

Not at all. Communication with the outside world brings a tangible, and an economic benefit. Having this dear old lady over, welcome as she should be made to feel, really does not do anything logical (as far as I can see).

GSF · 15-05-2011 2:45pm

later10 wrote: »

Not at all. Communication with the outside world brings a tangible, and an economic benefit. Having this dear old lady over, welcome as she should be made to feel, really does not do anything logical (as far as I can see).

Are you really that tunel visioned?

I thought it was about Heads Of State visiting? Or do you only want male, under 50 head of states? Otherwise whats this "old lady stuff" about?

PS. You must also want Slane, the Europa Cup final cancelled as well as the €30m goes to that too. Please confirm?

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:47pm

GSF wrote: »

The OP could ask how much it would cost to buy the amount of tv airtime that will be devoted to the visits on UK & US tv perhaps?

I'm guessing it might be at least €30m?

The President of Malta is today on a state visit to Bulgaria.

I'm sure that the tourist industry in both countries is positively exploding with excitement.

Sorry, that just isn't how tourism works. People don't take choose their holiday destinations based on CNN news updates. Perhaps we could actually invest this in advertising, instead of providing coverage for inevitable public protests. Do you think they won't be screened too?

GSF · 15-05-2011 2:51pm

later10 wrote: »

People don't take choose their holiday destinations based on CNN news updates.

I know of many US friends who do indeed base their holiday decisions in part based on what they see & read in the papers, on tv and on the internet. Its called brand awareness - you need to be on the list of destinations that feature in peoples consciousness as a starter.

Basic marketing would tell you that there is brand awareness and there is advertising that produces specific sales. Both are needed in marketing products.

Welease · 15-05-2011 2:51pm

later10 wrote: »

The President of Malta is today on a state visit to Bulgaria.

I'm sure that the tourist industry in both countries is positively exploding with excitement.

Sorry, that just isn't how tourism works. People don't take choose their holiday destinations based on CNN news updates. Perhaps we could actually invest this in advertising, instead of providing coverage for inevitable public protests. Do you think they won't be screened too?

You don't seem to realise that it is advertising.. and damn good advertising given the political history (or bad if a few idiots gets their way.. but then again the cost is largely because of those idiots.. )..

Its the same reason, we host the Europa finals, or the Ryder cup, or European City of Culture, or Expos etc.. the actual event is worth a small amount in comparison to the publicity the overall country receives because of the events.

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:52pm

beeftotheheels wrote: »

Did you note that we're putting €750k into the Competitive Start-up Fund? Imagine expanding it and putting the €30m in to support small growth businesses, or starting an enterprise investment bank to encourage the domestic economy?

That's an increase by a factor of 40, it could certainly go a long way.

I'm sure people see this as pedantic, but that money could actually make a real difference elsewhere to business who really need it. If this visit serves no other purpose (and it won't) at least it can be used it to point out these inefficiencies in public spending, perhaps.

johnnyskeleton · 15-05-2011 2:52pm

later10 wrote: »

Not at all. Communication with the outside world brings a tangible, and an economic benefit. Having this dear old lady over, welcome as she should be made to feel, really does not do anything logical (as far as I can see).

No more tangible than the benefits of having good diplomatic relations with our nearest neighbour.

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:53pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

No more tangible than the benefits of having good diplomatic relations with our nearest neighbour.

We have *excellent* diplomatic relations with Britain. To the point where we share embassy work, in some cases.

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:55pm

GSF wrote: »

Basic marketing would tell you that there is brand awareness and there is advertising that produces specific sales. Both are needed in marketing products.

And the protests? Will the protests not be covered too? Extensively, even?

Welease · 15-05-2011 2:56pm

later10 wrote: »

That's an increase by a factor of 40, it could certainly go a long way.

I'm sure people see this as pedantic, but that money could actually make a real difference elsewhere to business who really need it. If this visit serves no other purpose (and it won't) at least it can be used it to point out these inefficiencies in public spending, perhaps.

Business's like tourism that saw a 15% drop from our biggest market Britain in 2009...? But are still worth 3.9 billion to the economy..

You seem happy to ignore all the stats already provided...

You seem very quick to state it will have no benefit.. Explain how...

15-05-2011 2:56pm

later10 wrote: »

The President of Malta is today on a state visit to Bulgaria.

I'm sure that the tourist industry in both countries is positively exploding with excitement.

Sorry, that just isn't how tourism works. People don't take choose their holiday destinations based on CNN news updates. Perhaps we could actually invest this in advertising, instead of providing coverage for inevitable public protests. Do you think they won't be screened too?

Totally different - our no 1 tourists are the British, for 30 years all they heard on tv about Ireland was bombings and shootings with bombs in their cities too.

This would have held alot of people back from coming here. Now we have the chance to show them via the Queen that this is a place you can visit.

http://goireland.about.com/od/preparingyourtrip/qt/statistics.htm
1.6 million British come here a year if we can push that to 2 million or more we will make our money back in spades.

Its not the same as Obama coming here and expecting that to boost tourism. The situation is completely different and if you believe that the 30 years of bombs in British cities and the butchery that went on over here wouldnt put people off then your deluded

Fittle · 15-05-2011 2:58pm

She's coming. And so is he.

This discussion is moot.

later12 · 15-05-2011 2:59pm

Welease wrote: »

Business's like tourism that saw a 15% drop from our biggest market Britain in 2009...? But are still worth 3.9 billion to the economy..

You seem happy to ignore all the stats already provided...

You seem very quick to state it will have no benefit.. Explain how...

On the contrary; if you read the first post, I am asking for evidence.

I don't see how, unless something very dramatically negative happens, tourism will be affected by this visit. British people have been coming here in droves for years, it is important that we still welcome them and remain competitive, but this visit is unrelated to that as far as I can see.

If they have been coming here less and less it may be because of their financial situation - it certainly is not because they're waiting for the Queen to go first.

15-05-2011 3:00pm

Why not start a thread on things that cost 70 billion?
http://www.dbrs.com/research/238847/ireland-republic-of/dbrs-downgrades-ireland-to-a-on-higher-bank-losses-trend-remains-negative.html

.........Anglo is a black hole at least the British will come over on holidays and we`ll get money back!

later12 · 15-05-2011 3:02pm

Deleted User wrote: »

1.6 million British come here a year if we can push that to 2 million or more we will make our money back in spades.

Where does the 2 million figure arise from? You've just increased our UK tourist numbers by a quarter? Based on what evidence?

Surely, if you want to advertise, you spend it on advertising. Not a state visit with a possibility of some serious protests and hostility.

GSF · 15-05-2011 3:07pm

later10 wrote: »

Surely, if you want to advertise, you spend it on advertising.

Promotion that doesnt lok like conventional advertising delivers incredibly more return than buying 30 second tv spots or glossy pages in magazines. Its what companies spend huge amount of energy on trying to achieve.

Welease · 15-05-2011 3:08pm

later10 wrote: »

On the contrary; if you read the first post, I am asking for evidence.

Which is a ridiculous position.. If you don't agree with it, then YOU provide some evidence that backs up your claim..

later10 wrote: »

I don't see how, unless something very dramatically negative happens, tourism will be affected by this visit. British people have been coming here in droves for years, it is important that we still welcome them and remain competitive, but this visit is unrelated to that as far as I can see.

So you think we should stop all advertising and shut down Bord Failte etc?
After all people have been coming for years, and it's obviously not linked to any forms of advertising or selling the country /boggle

later10 wrote: »

If they have been coming here less and less it may be because of their financial situation - it certainly is not because they're waiting for the Queen to go first.

It may.. It may also be because other countries have become more enticing, it may be because a fear of the sort of prejudice some people have shown, it may be for a myriad of reasons.. You don't know though, you don't seem to have done even a basic amount of investigation into it, but you are willing to state categorically that this trip "serves no purpose"..

Welease · 15-05-2011 3:09pm

later10 wrote: »

Where does the 2 million figure arise from? You've just increased our UK tourist numbers by a quarter? Based on what evidence?

Surely, if you want to advertise, you spend it on advertising. Not a state visit with a possibility of some serious protests and hostility.

IT IS ADVERTISING...

If a section of Irish people want to advertise the fact they are unable to move on and want to remain entrenched in bigoted anti British sentiment, then that will also get advertised.. but isn't that what they want???? to insult our biggest market for tourism...

Welease · 15-05-2011 3:13pm

GSF wrote: »

Promotion that doesnt lok like conventional advertising delivers incredibly more return than buying 30 second tv spots or glossy pages in magazines. Its what companies spend huge amount of energy on trying to achieve.

..and that ignoring the fact this will be front page news across every UK newspaper and TV/Radio news outlets.. how much would that cost alone..

later12 · 15-05-2011 3:14pm

Welease wrote: »

Which is a ridiculous position.. If you don't agree with it, then YOU provide some evidence that backs up your claim..

What? I am asking for evidence. No evidence of a financial benefit has been supplied anywhere. It would be rather foolish to accept a benefit without evidence.

So you think we should stop all advertising and shut down Bord Failte etc?

Yes. Yes Exactly. That's everything I want and more. Thank you.

later12 · 15-05-2011 3:14pm

Welease wrote: »

..and that ignoring the fact this will be front page news

which, the protests or the queen?

later12 · 15-05-2011 3:17pm

GSF wrote: »

Promotion that doesnt lok like conventional advertising delivers incredibly more return than buying 30 second tv spots or glossy pages in magazines.

Sorry do you have evidence for any of this? Setting up a contentious state visit with the inevitability of protests and possibly skirmishes is a pretty interesting approach to 'advertising'. This is becoming a fact free zone guys, either the facts are there or they are not, either logic supports this or it does not.

Welease · 15-05-2011 3:19pm

later10 wrote: »

which, the protests or the queen?

The Queen will be front page news..

Anything negative that happens post that, will be up to a section of the Irish people, and how they want to be perceived to our largest single tourism market.. an industry that has seen a massive contraction in the last couple of years and is desperate to retain jobs.

Legal protests are fine, and should be respected.. Planting bombs (hoax or not) would not entice me to visit a country..

later12 · 15-05-2011 3:22pm

Welease wrote: »

The Queen will be front page news..

How do you know the protests won't? Why do we want to risk this?

For symbolism, they all cried in unison.

johnnyskeleton · 15-05-2011 3:24pm

later10 wrote: »

We have *excellent* diplomatic relations with Britain. To the point where we share embassy work, in some cases.

And what better way to keep it like that than to invite their head of state over every once and a while for a knees up and a gawp at our castles?

Things that cost €30 million

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