John Paull II nearly assassinated 30 years ago today

branie

Hard to believe isn't it?

hivizman

branie wrote: »

Hard to believe isn't it?

Which bit - that someone would dare to attempt to assassinate the Pope, or that it was so long ago?

mcmoustache

I'm an atheist and even I believe it.

Keylem

The shooting of the Blessed JP II was foretold in the 3rd secret of Fatima (1917), it was also the Feast Day of Our Lady Of Fatima that he was shot.

http://www.romereports.com/palio/30th-Anniversary-of-John-Paul-IIs-Assasination-Attempt-The-letters-the-attacker-sent-to-Joseph-Ratzinger-english-4121.html

Zombrex

Keylem wrote: »

The shooting of the Blessed JP II was foretold in the 3rd secret of Fatima (1917), it was also the Feast Day of Our Lady Of Fatima that he was shot.

http://www.romereports.com/palio/30th-Anniversary-of-John-Paul-IIs-Assasination-Attempt-The-letters-the-attacker-sent-to-Joseph-Ratzinger-english-4121.html

According to the link the death of a bishop dressed in white was foretold in 1917. Pretty safe bet to be honest, that a bishop at some point in the future would die.

Donatello

Wicknight wrote: »

According to the link the death of a bishop dressed in white was foretold in 1917. Pretty safe bet to be honest, that a bishop at some point in the future would die.

How many bishops wear white though? OK, so quite a few in Africa, probably, but the whole point of the prophecy is that it clearly applies to the Pope.

Baggio1

i dont believe it refers to John Paul2 at all,, but rather to whatever Pope is forced to leave Rome (i think its this present pope by the way ) he will be killed as he passes through a war town city praying for the massive amounts of dead as he does..... its his calvary if yu wish - as seen in the fatima visions coz he climbs the calvary hill there and is gunned down.

Zombrex

Donatello wrote: »

How many bishops wear white though? OK, so quite a few in Africa, probably, but the whole point of the prophecy is that it clearly applies to the Pope.

Even if it was just all of the Popes it is a relatively safe bet that at some point one of the Popes would die.

Morbert

I'm missing something. How was the assassination foretold if the Pope wasn't assassinated?

Fanny Cradock

Not that I'm up on such things, but Keylem's post mentioned that the shooting was predicted.

::Edit::

Just did a quick google on the "3rd Secret of Fatima assassination" and it appears as if death is predicted.

Donatello

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Not that I'm up on such things, but Keylem's post mentioned that the shooting was predicted.

::Edit::

Just did a quick google on the "3rd Secret of Fatima assassination" and it appears as if death is predicted.

Death is predicted but Pope JPII said it was the intercession of the BVM that saved him. I think Sister Lucy agreed with that interpretation, and she should know.

As regards the passage about the Bishop dressed in white, that is, the Holy Father—as the children immediately realized during the “vision”—who is struck dead and falls to the ground, Sister Lucia was in full agreement with the Pope's claim that “it was a mother's hand that guided the bullet's path and in his throes the Pope halted at the threshold of death” (Pope John Paul II, Meditation from the Policlinico Gemelli to the Italian Bishops, 13 May 1994).

[...]

...the future is not in fact unchangeably set, and the image which the children saw is in no way a film preview of a future in which nothing can be changed. Indeed, the whole point of the vision is to bring freedom onto the scene and to steer freedom in a positive direction. The purpose of the vision is not to show a film of an irrevocably fixed future. Its meaning is exactly the opposite: it is meant to mobilize the forces of change in the right direction. Therefore we must totally discount fatalistic explanations of the “secret”, such as, for example, the claim that the would-be assassin of 13 May 1981 was merely an instrument of the divine plan guided by Providence and could not therefore have acted freely, or other similar ideas in circulation. Rather, the vision speaks of dangers and how we might be saved from them.

Check it out: CatholicCulture.org - Our Lady of Fatima

Morbert

Donatello wrote: »

Death is predicted but Pope JPII said it was the intercession of the BVM that saved him. I think Sister Lucy agreed with that interpretation, and she should know.

Check it out: CatholicCulture.org - Our Lady of Fatima

What freedom was brought into the scene? The interpretation would make sense if Mary had appeared to the assassin and he chose not to shoot the pope. But as it stands, the only freedom involved was the freedom Mary has to protect the pope. I'm getting a strong sense of having one's cake and eating it.

Furthermore, what if the vision had nothing to do with the attempted assassination, but was in instead a vision of the struggle the Catholic church would go through in modern times? The scandals are much darker and more dangerous to the life of the church than a lone gunman after all. Did the Pope claim God actually told him the assassination attempt was related to the 3rd secret?

Onesimus

A ''Bishop'' and not ''Pope''. is that the argument here?

The Pope is also a bishop, head bishop of the Church to be concise. The '''death'' was predicted but through our prayers and sufferings offered to Jesus and Mary can prevent these things from happening. Thus His Holiness call upon the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary was clear in this regard.

This is why Our Lady of Fatima tells us that praying the rosary and fasting much can prevent world wars. But if we don't comply with that invitation of Our Lady then wars and disasters will certainly befall us.

Onesimus

georgieporgy

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Not that I'm up on such things, but Keylem's post mentioned that the shooting was predicted.

::Edit::

Just did a quick google on the "3rd Secret of Fatima assassination" and it appears as if death is predicted.

Anyone interested in the whole Fatima thing will find the following link has the most complete info. Of particular interest also is the commentary at the end by Cardinal Ratzinger

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

dlofnep

Onesimus wrote: »

This is why Our Lady of Fatima tells us that praying the rosary and fasting much can prevent world wars. But if we don't comply with that invitation of Our Lady then wars and disasters will certainly befall us.

Praying and fasting will not stop wars I'm afraid.

georgieporgy

dlofnep wrote: »

Praying and fasting will not stop wars I'm afraid.

it drives out devils so why not prevent wars?

dlofnep

georgieporgy wrote: »

it drives out devils so why not prevent wars?

No it doesn't. Nor is there such a thing as the devil. The only way to prevent war is by mutual respect, dialogue and compromise. Praying and fasting won't make the least bit of difference.

Keylem

Ninevah was spared from destruction, after fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

Job 3

Baggio1

I still hold that it is the present pope that was being foretold, its interesting that only a week or 2 into his pntificate - in one of his sermons/speeches he said "pray for me for when the wolves come for me" he has a certain knowledge of what must come.
Um the devil doesnt exist?? well Christ and all; the church people down the century say he does, and many of us have had experiences where we felt his evil about us, all those who dont believe are in for a rude awakening...

Keylem

I can't remember the source, but I recall Lucia herself saying that JPII was the pope of Fatima.

I believe prayers prevented the bullet from actually killing him.

Donatello

Baggio1 wrote: »

I still hold that it is the present pope that was being foretold, its interesting that only a week or 2 into his pntificate - in one of his sermons/speeches he said "pray for me for when the wolves come for me" he has a certain knowledge of what must come.
Um the devil doesnt exist?? well Christ and all; the church people down the century say he does, and many of us have had experiences where we felt his evil about us, all those who dont believe are in for a rude awakening...

My dear friends – at this moment I can only say: pray for me, that I may learn to love the Lord more and more. Pray for me, that I may learn to love his flock more and more – in other words, you, the holy Church, each one of you and all of you together. Pray for me, that I may not flee for fear of the wolves. Let us pray for one another, that the Lord will carry us and that we will learn to carry one another.
- HOMILY OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI, 24 April 2005


According to Ratzinger's commentary on the secret, it would appear that the attack on Pope JPII was the fulfliment of the prophecy. His own comments at the beginning of his pontificate refer to his desire for prayer that he may not flee for fear of the wolves who would attack the Church and its leaders, both inside and outside the Church I expect.

Thus we come finally to the third part of the “secret” of Fatima which for the first time is being published in its entirety. As is clear from the documentation presented here, the interpretation offered by Cardinal Sodano in his statement of 13 May was first put personally to Sister Lucia. Sister Lucia responded by pointing out that she had received the vision but not its interpretation. The interpretation, she said, belonged not to the visionary but to the Church. After reading the text, however, she said that this interpretation corresponded to what she had experienced and that on her part she thought the interpretation correct. In what follows, therefore, we can only attempt to provide a deeper foundation for this interpretation, on the basis of the criteria already considered.

[...]

In the Via Crucis of an entire century, the figure of the Pope has a special role. In his arduous ascent of the mountain we can undoubtedly see a convergence of different Popes. Beginning from Pius X up to the present Pope, they all shared the sufferings of the century and strove to go forward through all the anguish along the path which leads to the Cross. In the vision, the Pope too is killed along with the martyrs. When, after the attempted assassination on 13 May 1981, the Holy Father had the text of the third part of the “secret” brought to him, was it not inevitable that he should see in it his own fate? He had been very close to death, and he himself explained his survival in the following words: “... it was a mother's hand that guided the bullet's path and in his throes the Pope halted at the threshold of death” (13 May 1994). That here “a mother's hand” had deflected the fateful bullet only shows once more that there is no immutable destiny, that faith and prayer are forces which can influence history and that in the end prayer is more powerful than bullets and faith more powerful than armies.

[...]

And so we come to the final question: What is the meaning of the “secret” of Fatima as a whole (in its three parts)? What does it say to us? First of all we must affirm with Cardinal Sodano: “... the events to which the third part of the ‘secret' of Fatima refers now seem part of the past”. Insofar as individual events are described, they belong to the past. Those who expected exciting apocalyptic revelations about the end of the world or the future course of history are bound to be disappointed. Fatima does not satisfy our curiosity in this way, just as Christian faith in general cannot be reduced to an object of mere curiosity. What remains was already evident when we began our reflections on the text of the “secret”: the exhortation to prayer as the path of “salvation for souls” and, likewise, the summons to penance and conversion.

More here.

Baggio1

Donatelo fair points amigo , but i still feel this year will show that THIS pope is the one who flees Rome and all that happens after is the fullfilment of revelations for sure

by the way - if i am wrong? ill be veryyy happy to be wrong for sure:)

Zombrex

Morbert wrote: »

I'm getting a strong sense of having one's cake and eating it.

That is prophecy for you. We are supposed to be amazed when one matches up with something that actually happened and even more amazed when it doesn't! :P

hinault

al28283

branie wrote: »

Hard to believe isn't it?

why?

Quo Vadis

Baggio1 wrote: »

Donatelo fair points amigo , but i still feel this year will show that THIS pope is the one who flees Rome and all that happens after is the fullfilment of revelations for sure

by the way - if i am wrong? ill be veryyy happy to be wrong for sure:)

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father” (Mark 13:32).

goose2005

Donatello wrote: »

How many bishops wear white though? OK, so quite a few in Africa, probably, but the whole point of the prophecy is that it clearly applies to the Pope.

Actually it says "on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him", which is not at all what happened.

Onesimus

goose2005 wrote: »

Actually it says "on his knees at the foot of the big Cross he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him", which is not at all what happened.

No but we must be careful when reading prophecy. Not even in Jesus time did they get it right and viewed somethings literals. For example some of the apostles thought that Jesus was gonna over throw the romans and took his coming literally.

The bullets in this regard the group of soldiers who fired bullets can be literal in the sense that those who prepared to assasinate him. it was probably a group orientated mission regardless of what we are told.

The arrows can be of a symbolic nature such as disobedient scholars within the Church trying to persuade our Holy Father of women being priests amongst other virulent attacks upon him verbally by those within the Church and globally.

I'm not a scholar or good at reading prophecy but thats my 2 cents.

georgieporgy

das right Onesimus. I tend to hold that interpretation too.

PDN

So, let's get this straight.

The prophecy was that at an unspecified point in the future a bishop dressed in white would be killed by a group of soldiers shooting him with bullets and arrows while he was on his knees at the foot of a big cross. And the fulfilment of this was that a Pope was shot by a civilian lunatic, while standing upright (not at the foot of a big cross), and didn't die.

Is that about right?

Donatello

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight.

The prophecy was that at an unspecified point in the future a bishop dressed in white would be killed by a group of soldiers shooting him with bullets and arrows while he was on his knees at the foot of a big cross. And the fulfilment of this was that a Pope was shot by a civilian lunatic, while standing upright (not at the foot of a big cross), and didn't die.

Is that about right?

You've done this before with me and now you're doing it again. In your eagerness to mock the Catholics, you make yourself look foolish by indicating that you've not understood. The commentary I posted by Card. Ratzinger explained all this.

PDN

Donatello wrote: »

You've done this before with me and now you're doing it again. In your eagerness to mock the Catholics, you make yourself look foolish by indicating that you've not understood. The commentary I posted by Card. Ratzinger explained all this.

Oh I understand very well. Allegorise everything that doesn't fit the way you want it to fit.

I don't think that makes me foolish at all. Certainly not foolish enough to start using the same make-it-up-as-you-go-along principles in interpreting the Bible so as to think that verses that don't mention children at all somehow become proof that children should be baptised! :pac:

Donatello

PDN wrote: »

Oh I understand very well. Allegorise everything that doesn't fit the way you want it to fit.

I don't think that makes me foolish at all. Certainly not foolish enough to start using the same make-it-up-as-you-go-along principles in interpreting the Bible so as to think that verses that don't mention children at all somehow become proof that children should be baptised! :pac:

PDN, when they come for all the Christians, you and I will be hung together. Then our differences will melt away, perhaps along with our flesh in the boiling oil. Mmmm! Burning flesh! There's nothing like fire to burn away all doctrinal impurity!

Onesimus

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight.

The prophecy was that at an unspecified point in the future a bishop dressed in white would be killed by a group of soldiers shooting him with bullets and arrows while he was on his knees at the foot of a big cross. And the fulfilment of this was that a Pope was shot by a civilian lunatic, while standing upright (not at the foot of a big cross), and didn't die.

Is that about right?

The Pope symbolically is always on his knees in front of the Cross. I think you've failed to read my post a few ones up there.

Onesimus

Keylem

Pilgrims See Sun Halo at Fatima on May 13

On Friday, May 13, as is customary, a multitude of pilgrims were praying in Fatima, Portugal, to honor the first apparition of Our Lady at that great shrine.

At noon, which is the time that Our Lady appeared at Fatima on May 13, 1917, a beautiful solar halo appeared in the sky and was evident to all. The phenomenon was also noted by many Portuguese newspapers together with pictures of the event.

http://saintlouiscrusade.blogspot.com/2011/05/pilgrims-see-sun-halo-at-fatima-on-may.html

You tube vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNXXNf-8zLI

Donatello

Keylem wrote: »

Pilgrims See Sun Halo at Fatima on May 13

On Friday, May 13, as is customary, a multitude of pilgrims were praying in Fatima, Portugal, to honor the first apparition of Our Lady at that great shrine.

At noon, which is the time that Our Lady appeared at Fatima on May 13, 1917, a beautiful solar halo appeared in the sky and was evident to all. The phenomenon was also noted by many Portuguese newspapers together with pictures of the event.

http://saintlouiscrusade.blogspot.com/2011/05/pilgrims-see-sun-halo-at-fatima-on-may.html

You tube vid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNXXNf-8zLI&feature=related

When I first saw that I was quite sceptical. I know people often look at the sun at Medjugorje and that is a really bad idea. Looking at the sun will damage your eyes even if it doesn't feel like it at the time. What happened at the original Fatima apparition was a remarkable one-off occurrence. But in any other case, looking at the sun is harmful.

In this latest sun halo thing, the sun is still dangerous to look at, but it is interesting that this natural phenomenon occurred on that day.

newmug

Baggio1 wrote: »

Donatelo fair points amigo , but i still feel this year will show that THIS pope is the one who flees Rome and all that happens after is the fullfilment of revelations for sure

by the way - if i am wrong? ill be veryyy happy to be wrong for sure:)

What makes you so sure of that Baggio? Tell us why you believe this.

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight.

The prophecy was that at an unspecified point in the future a bishop dressed in white would be killed by a group of soldiers shooting him with bullets and arrows while he was on his knees at the foot of a big cross. And the fulfilment of this was that a Pope was shot by a civilian lunatic, while standing upright (not at the foot of a big cross), and didn't die.

Is that about right?

The visions are symbolic. Its not like watching a DVD! However, as with other prophecies, dates, locations etc. can be a massive supernatural hint! I didnt know the pope was shot on the 13 May, when I found out and saw all the symbolic clues, I got a shiver down my spine! Look it up!

Also, the in visions Sr. Faustina (a Polish nun) recieved about the devine mercy, she was told she would get a huge hint that what she was seeing was to be taken very seriously. Lo and behold, a Polish priest became the next pope! The first non-Italian for years!

Just as an aside, what do you non-Catholics think of all these prophecies and visions? Do you believe the people who claim to get them? Do you believe what they say?

PDN

newmug wrote: »

Just as an aside, what do you non-Catholics think of all these prophecies and visions? Do you believe the people who claim to get them? Do you believe what they say?

This non-Catholic certainly doesn't believe them. But if you want to discuss the ins and outs of that then we would need to take it the Protestant/Catholic Debate Thread.

antiskeptic

PDN wrote: »

So, let's get this straight.

The prophecy was that at an unspecified point in the future a bishop dressed in white would be killed by a group of soldiers shooting him with bullets and arrows while he was on his knees at the foot of a big cross. And the fulfilment of this was that a Pope was shot by a civilian lunatic, while standing upright (not at the foot of a big cross), and didn't die.

Is that about right?

Isn't it precisely this kind of flexibity that allows people to work out that the end of the world happened a few days ago?

Donatello

antiskeptic wrote: »

Isn't it precisely this kind of flexibity that allows people to work out that the end of the world happened a few days ago?

It would be a kind of prophetical fundamentalism to insist on what you and PDN are insisting on and to have not read all the explanations already provided. The thing's already been explained.

Keylem

Precise Prophecy of African Genocide May Be Most Accurate In History of Apparitions.

Kibeho

newmug

PDN wrote: »

This non-Catholic certainly doesn't believe them. But if you want to discuss the ins and outs of that then we would need to take it the Protestant/Catholic Debate Thread.

Ah no, dont do that. Its not a Catholic versus Protestant thing, its related to THIS thread, the way it was predicted the a pope would be shot and everything!?!

To me apparitions and visions etc. are the essence of what it means to be Christian. There is a parallel world, the supernatural, which is as real as this one, where God exists along with the trillions of souls of dead people. There is a massive war going on between good and evil, and Earth and its currently alive people is the battlefield. If you are a Christian, you are on the side of good. Basically, the war is between God and the devil, and whoever has the most souls by the end of the world wins.

Now the outcome has already been established. God is going to win because he sacrificed himself (in the form of Jesus) to save the world. Its just damage limitation at this stage. For us currently alive souls however, it is not determined which side we will be on until we die. We may wish to be on the side of good, but it may not work out like that. You could end up in hell if you never recieved communion, or sought repentance / forgiveness for your sins. Unfortunately, whatever side you're put on is where you stay forever, so now is your chance to put some work in and ensure you are taken into Heaven on Gods side. I dont fancy being set on fire for one millisecond, nevermind eternity!

This is where visions and prophecies come into it. For me, it strengthenes my faith. Its a communication from the other side to let mankind know where we are in the predestined journey of Gods ultimate victory and glorification. Its another little piece of the ongoing mystery of the supernatural revealed to us. When these visions have a prophetic aspect to them, as in the third secret of Fatima and the shooting of the pope, they add a real-ness to my religion! Its like a report from the war office of a mission in progress! The way they're always so symbolic, with intertwining meanings and clues, its facinating stuff! It always reminds me that Christianity didnt just end when the Bible was stopped!

That is why I asked about non-Catholics views on all this. I'm not trying to flame, or cause a Catholic v Protestant debate. It just seems to me that sometimes non-Catholics completely miss out on all this. Its like we're not even singing from the same book of hymns, nevermind the same hymn-sheet!

So, of you people who dont believe Pope John-Paul 2nd's shooting was foretold, what IS your view on his shooting? Catholic and non-Catholic alike;)

Quo Vadis

newmug wrote: »

Just as an aside, what do you non-Catholics think of all these prophecies and visions? Do you believe the people who claim to get them? Do you believe what they say?

This Catholic thinks the following ;

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

In my opinion, anything else is misinterpretation and/or hysteria.

newmug

Quo Vadis wrote: »

This Catholic thinks the following ;

“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Matthew 24:36

In my opinion, anything is misinterpretation and/or hysteria.

Yea, but no credited vision ever predicted a day or hour of end-of-the-world, judgement day, your death etc., just possible outcomes for people if the world continues to reject God

PDN

newmug wrote: »

Ah no, dont do that. Its not a Catholic versus Protestant thing, its related to THIS thread, the way it was predicted the a pope would be shot and everything!?!

To me apparitions and visions etc. are the essence of what it means to be Christian. There is a parallel world, the supernatural, which is as real as this one, where God exists along with the trillions of souls of dead people. There is a massive war going on between good and evil, and Earth and its currently alive people is the battlefield. If you are a Christian, you are on the side of good. Basically, the war is between God and the devil, and whoever has the most souls by the end of the world wins.

Now the outcome has already been established. God is going to win because he sacrificed himself (in the form of Jesus) to save the world. Its just damage limitation at this stage. For us currently alive souls however, it is not determined which side we will be on until we die. We may wish to be on the side of good, but it may not work out like that. You could end up in hell if you never recieved communion, or sought repentance / forgiveness for your sins. Unfortunately, whatever side you're put on is where you stay forever, so now is your chance to put some work in and ensure you are taken into Heaven on Gods side. I dont fancy being set on fire for one millisecond, nevermind eternity!

This is where visions and prophecies come into it. For me, it strengthenes my faith. Its a communication from the other side to let mankind know where we are in the predestined journey of Gods ultimate victory and glorification. Its another little piece of the ongoing mystery of the supernatural revealed to us. When these visions have a prophetic aspect to them, as in the third secret of Fatima and the shooting of the pope, they add a real-ness to my religion! Its like a report from the war office of a mission in progress! The way they're always so symbolic, with intertwining meanings and clues, its facinating stuff! It always reminds me that Christianity didnt just end when the Bible was stopped!

That is why I asked about non-Catholics views on all this. I'm not trying to flame, or cause a Catholic v Protestant debate. It just seems to me that sometimes non-Catholics completely miss out on all this. Its like we're not even singing from the same book of hymns, nevermind the same hymn-sheet!

So, of you people who dont believe Pope John-Paul 2nd's shooting was foretold, what IS your view on his shooting? Catholic and non-Catholic alike;)

My view on his shooting is that a nutter shot the pope.

The prophecy is so vague, and so much of it has to be interpreted symbolically, that it could easily be applied to the killing of any bishop. And sooner or later a bishop would be shot somewhere.

For example, Archbishop Oscar Romero was shot in El Salvador 1980. He was actually killed, and in a context where other priests were being killed in his country (which means he fulfils the prophecy better than John Paul II. True he was killed by bullets and not arrows, but you could take the arrows as symbolic of the criticism he was subjected to because of his liberation theology. As with John Paul II he wasn't actually kneeling at the foot of the Cross, but 'El Salvador' means 'the Saviour' so the kneeling at the Cross bit could be symbolic of how he was praying for his land. True, he wasn't wearing white - but we can explain that symbolically by saying that his soul was white as snow because he was celebrating mass at the time of his assassination.

It's not just Catholics who fall for this stuff. Pentecostalism has more than its fair share of charlatans who make vague predictions and then claim that they are fulfilled by floods in New Orleans, or in the Gulf oil spill etc etc.

This stuff, in the end, seems no different to me than the kind of vague predictions you can get from any psychic on Blackpool's Golden Mile. If you're prepared to be non-specific about names or dates, and to interpret symbolically any details that don't quite fit, then you can manufacture a fulfilment of prophecy out of pretty much any major event.

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

It's not just Catholics who fall for this stuff. Pentecostalism has more than its fair share of charlatans who make vague predictions and then claim that they are fulfilled by floods in New Orleans, or in the Gulf oil spill etc etc.

Harold Camping anyone?

Donatello

What makes Fatima different was that there was the miracle of the sun. Even the Church hating atheistic, communist government and media witnessed the miracle, and they wrote about it in their newspapers. There was the evidence and witness of these non-believers, who had no interest in promoting the Church or these apparitions.

Not only was there the miracle of the sun, but also the immediate drying of soaked clothing.

Witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry, as well as the wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling"

georgieporgy

PDN wrote: »

This non-Catholic certainly doesn't believe them. But if you want to discuss the ins and outs of that then we would need to take it the Protestant/Catholic Debate Thread.

We can't take everything to the mega thread. Can't catholics discuss things in peace without being badgered all the time? We can't have our own forum ( we can't even talk about having our own forum!), we can't put a "catholic responses only" tag on any thread, and if the discussion gets too catholic the thread gets locked.

I mean like, come on already.:pac:

Donatello

[Snip!]

Responding to backseat modding.

PDN

georgieporgy wrote: »

We can't take everything to the mega thread. Can't catholics discuss things in peace without being badgered all the time? We can't have our own forum ( we can't even talk about having our own forum!), we can't put a "catholic responses only" tag on any thread, and if the discussion gets too catholic the thread gets locked.

I mean like, come on already.:pac:

If you want to discuss moderating decisions and policy then please do so by PM. Trying to discuss it inthread is considered backseat modding.

As for your comment about threads getting locked if they get "too Catholic" - that flat out untruthful. There are threads on here about 'the new Roman missal' etc that are 100% Catholic. But threads that degenerate into disputes between Protestants and Catholics about whose religion is better belong in the new thread.

It's a simple enough policy. If you don't like it then feel free to PM either of the mods or contact an Admin.

Fanny Cradock

georgieporgy wrote: »

we can't even talk about having our own forum!

You actually can talk about having you own forum. But unsurprisingly the place for such a discussion is the forum exclusively dedicated to talking about having your own forum, not here.