Garda with criminal record

token101

Saw a guy in the paper today, an off duty garda, convicted for assault. Will he be automatically sacked now from the Gardai? just curious!!!

johnnyskeleton

Depends who he hit I guess

token101

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Depends who he hit I guess

Well he beat a guy in Cork city unconscious. Thug like.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/garda-guilty-of-street-assault-2644546.html

Surely he'll be sacked? He couldnt be allowed to continue, could he?

Delancey

Impossible to see how he will keep his job , the reason he cannot be dismissed at this stage is that the criminal proceedings have not finished.
As far as I know a Garda sentenced to any period in prison is automatically dismissed , even if this Garda was not jailed he would then face a separate internal disciplinary hearing.
This guy will get the boot.

Fred Cohen

Sad to think that someone's career is ruined for a moment of madness on a night out and others can ruin a nation and be allowed to resign with a massive severance package.

I feel sorry for the guy on a personal level but understand the need for the Guard's to be seen as pure as Caesar's Wife

Carawaystick

What about judges who are convicts?

Among all the hoo haa with Brian Curtin, no one said he should be sacked for drinking and driving, so what does a judge have to do to get the sack? is it similar to the cop?

Delancey

Very difficult to remove a judge , in order to preserve the impartiality and independence of the judiciary the system was set up that way.
IIRC from the Curtin case it requires an act of the Oireachtas to impeach or ' sack ' a judge.

qz

Bunreacht na hÉireann:

Article 35

4. 1° A judge of the Supreme Court or the High Court shall not be removed from office except for stated misbehaviour or incapacity, and then only upon resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann and by Seanad Éireann calling for his removal.

2° The Taoiseach shall duly notify the President of any such resolutions passed by Dáil Éireann and by Seanad Éireann, and shall send him a copy of every such resolution certified by the Chairman of the House of the Oireachtas by which it shall have been passed.

3° Upon receipt of such notification and of copies of such resolutions, the President shall forthwith, by an order under his hand and Seal, remove from office the judge to whom they relate.

Quite a few hurdles there alright. Also calls into play exactly what "misbehaviour" and to a lesser extent "capacity" entails.

thebullkf

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Sad to think that someone's career is ruined for a moment of madness on a night out and others can ruin a nation and be allowed to resign with a massive severance package.

I feel sorry for the guy on a personal level but understand the need for the Guard's to be seen as pure as Caesar's Wife

Two brothers,two pricks, Fcuk them. deserve the sack.


Wasn't just a few slaps--- serious injuries, and the cheek of the brother denying it at first. no sympathy.

Swine should know better.

Its the victim i feel sorry for !

Delancey

thebullkf wrote: »

Two brothers,two pricks, Fcuk them. deserve the sack.


Wasn't just a few slaps--- serious injuries, and the cheek of the brother denying it at first. no sympathy.

Swine should know better.

Its the victim i feel sorry for !

Agree 100% , this was not some Mickey Mouse common assault - victim could have died.

the varg

Sounds pretty serious assault, for which he should be getting jail-time. Odds are he'll get a suspended sentence with fine or some other ridiculous sentence handed down by some out of touch judge.
But at the very least he should be thrown off the force.

Zambia

Geez that's just untidy. I cant see him staying.

Hogzy

Fred Cohen wrote: »

Sad to think that someone's career is ruined for a moment of madness on a night out and others can ruin a nation and be allowed to resign with a massive severance package.

I feel sorry for the guy on a personal level but understand the need for the Guard's to be seen as pure as Caesar's Wife

How the hell can you feel sorry for the guy????
He beat the other fella to a pulp and could have killed him.
I have absolutely no sympathy for the Garda. He is an officer of the law. This is not how they should behave whether drunk or not.

Delancey

Its worth remembering that Judges can ( and do ) take account of a convicted person being a Garda , there have been instances of Guards being jailed where they may well have got a suspended sentence had they not been AGS members.

Fred Cohen

Sentenced today, 18 months with 12 suspended.

I think my previous post may have misinterpreted, I was replying to the previous reply. Of course my sympathy goes to the victim of this assault, who suffered very serious injuries (broken cheek, teeth & jaw, bleeding on the brain and in a coma) and seems to be a very responsible and mature individual who decided to go home before he was drunk.

What I was trying to express was that we have all done stupid things with drink taken, agreed not to this level of serious and the level of violence is appalling, but for the grace of God go I.

pconn062

I'm glad to hear he was jailed, even though I don't think the sentence is severe enough. An awful attack

234

Fred Cohen wrote: »

What I was trying to express was that we have all done stupid things with drink taken, agreed not to this level of serious and the level of violence is appalling, but for the grace of God go I.

Yes, but we have to hold Gardaí to a sigificantly higher standard than the ordinary citizen. The publin will only have confidence in the Gardaí if they know that more stringent standards are applied to them.

Allowing a Garda to continue in their position after a serious assault then the the Gardaí in general loose moral authority.

gustafo

i hope he gets a serious hiding inside the nick he deserves it.

Fred Cohen

Agreed, as I said about Caesar's Wife.

Hogzy wrote: »

I have absolutely no sympathy for the Garda. He is an officer of the law.

He's still a person who made a mistake and will serve his time. How many other officers of the law/court are in gaol for their actions?

Resend

Hogzy wrote: »

How the hell can you feel sorry for the guy????
He beat the other fella to a pulp and could have killed him.
I have absolutely no sympathy for the Garda. He is an officer of the law. This is not how they should behave whether drunk or not.

he is a thug

Resend

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm glad to hear he was jailed, even though I don't think the sentence is severe enough. An awful attack

and it is going o be reviewed isn't it, probably suspend it all

Dublinstiofán

I'd say (some) gardai acquire a taste for beating scumbags over time, not that i'm condoning it in this case. Seems like an unprovoked attack

Some people are just not meant to be on the force, this gard is one of them.

shaneybaby

thebullkf wrote: »

Two brothers,two pricks, Fcuk them. deserve the sack.


Wasn't just a few slaps--- serious injuries, and the cheek of the brother denying it at first. no sympathy.

Swine should know better.

Its the victim i feel sorry for !

You're right. it wasn't a few slaps. It was one punch. One punch of a guy shouting gay jibes at his brother and everyones lives are ruined. The innocent victim will have a defamation case against him coming up soon enough i'd say.

The_Snapper

pconn062 wrote: »

I'm glad to hear he was jailed, even though I don't think the sentence is severe enough. An awful attack

I don't think it was severe enough either. Because of his position and the ferocity of the assault I feel a minimum of 3yrs would be appropriate, none of it suspended.

A police sergeant in London befriended my Great aunt some years ago, she confided in him as to where some of her savings were hidden in the house. Soon after the money went missing (£8,000). As she never has people call we suspected him of the theft and informed a police station away from where he was stationed.

The money was recovered in his house in the attic within a week. All the money was eventually paid back to her and he pleaded guilty to theft.

Immediately after his conviction and sentence he was taken into custody, discharged from the Metropolitan Police and taken to prison with no leave to appeal. He got 18 months for his dishonesty.

shaneybaby

The_Snapper wrote: »

I don't think it was severe enough either. Because of his position and the ferocity of the assault I feel a minimum of 3yrs would be appropriate, none of it suspended.

Out of pure interest how many years would have been a sufficient?

The_Snapper

shaneybaby wrote: »

Out of pure interest how many years would have been a sufficient?

3yrs, as stated above.

shaneybaby

The_Snapper wrote: »

3yrs, as stated above.

Fair enough, you said minimum though that's all. And what if he had hit him twice and not once? Would it increase the sentence?

If the guy was actually still standing after the single punch and didn't fall and get smashed up would that affect the sentence?

Btw not being pedantic/agressive/wumming here or anything i'm just curious on peoples thoughts really. Sentencing is always a topic. Sound. S

coylemj

In assault cases there is a very fine line between hitting someone a punch and killing them. All the victim has to do is fall over, hit his head badly on the footpath and die in which case what would otherwise be a 'normal' assault suddenly becomes manslaughter.

Similarly there have been lots of cases where an assailant lunges at someone with a knife and misses them in which case all the Gardai can realistically do is charge them with assault whereas if the knife had found it's target then charge would be murder on the basis that the person with the knife had armed himself in advance intending to injure or kill his victim. In that case it's almost impossible to get a jury to convict of attempted murder even though if things had gone differently the victim would probably have died and getting a jury to bring in a conviction for murder would be a realistic expectation by the DPP and the Gardai.

The_Snapper

shaneybaby wrote: »

Fair enough, you said minimum though that's all. And what if he had hit him twice and not once? Would it increase the sentence?

If the guy was actually still standing after the single punch and didn't fall and get smashed up would that affect the sentence?

Btw not being pedantic/agressive/wumming here or anything i'm just curious on peoples thoughts really. Sentencing is always a topic. Sound. S

No problem, I was basing this one on the severity of the injuries and the position the accused held. Each case merits it own no doubt. This one had potentially life threatening consequences.

The accused also held a position which demands restraint, a simple comment thrown towards his brother, not him, seems to have triggered a raw nerve resulting in a serious assault, possibly GBH.

If the assault was not so severe i.e. common assault, minor bruising etc and a conviction ensued then yes a lesser prison term and discharge from AGS.

No matter what type of conviction automatic discharge from the AGS should follow in my opinion unless extreme circumstances apply.

shaneybaby

The_Snapper wrote: »

No problem, I was basing this one on the severity of the injuries and the position the accused held. Each case merits it own no doubt. This one had potentially life threatening consequences.

The accused also held a position which demands restraint, a simple comment thrown towards his brother, not him, seems to have triggered a raw nerve resulting in a serious assault, possibly GBH.

If the assault was not so severe i.e. common assault, minor bruising etc and a conviction ensued then yes a lesser prison term and discharge from AGS.

Te point i'm trying to make is that the assault in this case was one punch. It seems to be the victims injuries from this punch is what people are basing their opinions on what sentence the Defendant should get.

Presumably everyone would still hold the same opinion of the garda and his sentence if the victim simply walked away smiling?

The_Snapper

shaneybaby wrote: »

Te point i'm trying to make is that the assault in this case was one punch. It seems to be the victims injuries from this punch is what people are basing their opinions on what sentence the Defendant should get.

Presumably everyone would still hold the same opinion of the garda and his sentence if the victim simply walked away smiling?

One punch or twenty, it is still an assault. I'm also basing it on his (previous) occupation as well as the injuries sustained as stated, each case merits it's own.

shaneybaby

The_Snapper wrote: »

One punch or twenty, it is still an assault. I'm also basing it on his (previous) occupation as well as the injuries sustained as stated, each case merits it's own.

Absolutely it's still assault. even if it was more punches it's the point that the victims injuries rather than the actions of the defendant that seem to guide people as to the appropriate sentence.

BaronVon

The_Snapper wrote: »

I don't think it was severe enough either. Because of his position and the ferocity of the assault I feel a minimum of 3yrs would be appropriate, none of it suspended.

A police sergeant in London befriended my Great aunt some years ago, she confided in him as to where some of her savings were hidden in the house. Soon after the money went missing (£8,000). As she never has people call we suspected him of the theft and informed a police station away from where he was stationed.

The money was recovered in his house in the attic within a week. All the money was eventually paid back to her and he pleaded guilty to theft.

Immediately after his conviction and sentence he was taken into custody, discharged from the Metropolitan Police and taken to prison with no leave to appeal. He got 18 months for his dishonesty.

In Snapper's case, the policeman used his position to steal money. The case in Cork is completely different, he was off-duty, on the lash, and reacted to someone provoking him.

He got the full sentence suspended today.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0527/foleyd.html

Judges normally don't want defendants to lose their jobs. In this case the defendant is guaranteed to lose his job. It is unlikely he will re-offend, is not classed as a danger to society, and the injured party did not want him to go to jail.

I would think a suspended sentence is fair in this case.

shaneybaby

From rte.ie

"A garda, sentenced for assault yesterday, walked free today after a Circuit Court Judge in Cork revised his 18-month prison sentence.
Yesterday, Garda Dean Foley, who is from Blarney, was given an 18-month sentence with 12 months suspended, after he pleaded guilty to the serious assault of a man in Cork city while he was off duty.
However, Judge Sean Ó Donnabháin allowed the case to be re-entered for hearing today, after he accepted that it was both appropriate and lawful to hear the unusual application in the current session.
Today, Mr Foley's Defence Counsel Donal O'Sullivan told the court that he had failed to mention yesterday a principal in law which accepted that some mitigation in sentencing is granted to former guards and prison officers because they were likely to suffer more in prison.
He told the court that prison officers have said that his client, who is likely to lose his job, will be taken to the Midlands Prison where he will be isolated from other prisoners in a specific wing, kept under close supervision and restricted in his movements.
Judge Sean Ó Donnabháin said that it is likely that if this had been argued yesterday he would have adjourned the case, with the accused remanded in custody and sentenced today.
Judge Ó Donnabháin said that 'we are in a completely different place today to where we were yesterday and if a point had to be made then perhaps it has been made'.
After considering the argument raised by the garda's counsel, that he might not be able to advance this argument in the event of an appeal (in the court of Criminal Appeal), Judge Ó Donnabháin said he was concerned that an unfairness might result, and so he affirmed the 18-month prison sentence, but suspended it. "

Must say i've never heard of the point in bold above....

coylemj

Almost sounds like a form of diplomatic immunity - I'm a Garda so I can't be sent to prison.

This really takes the biscuit, where is the principle of equality before the law?

In my opinion the judge had no jurisdiction to vary the sentence today, he was effectively hearing an appeal against his own sentence which is ultra vires.

The_Snapper

infacteh wrote: »

In Snapper's case, the policeman used his position to steal money. The case in Cork is completely different, he was off-duty, on the lash, and reacted to someone provoking him.

I should have been a bit clearer there, the police sergeant got 18 months for theft, the garda got 18 months (now suspended) for a serious assault.

It was more a comparison for law enforcers and offences they commit, albeit neighboring countries.

coylemj wrote: »

Almost sounds like a form of diplomatic immunity - I'm a Garda so I can't be sent to prison.

I agree. That's not right. That sentence only generates mistrust and closing of ranks etc, in my opinion. Like a two tier rule.

shaneybaby

coylemj wrote: »

Almost sounds like a form of diplomatic immunity - I'm a Garda so I can't be sent to prison.

This really takes the biscuit, where is the principle of equality before the law?

In my opinion the judge had no jurisdiction to vary the sentence today, he was effectively hearing an appeal against his own sentence which is ultra vires.

Totally agree with the first part. Serious can of worms being opened.

However although i've only heard of it in civil cases (cork city's liquidation order two years ago) of orders being revisited i thought the same judge does have jurisdiction to review sentences. No back up to that mind you;)

maglite

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0527/foleyd.html wrote:

A garda, sentenced for assault yesterday, walked free today after a Circuit Court Judge in Cork revised his 18-month prison sentence.

Yesterday, Garda Dean Foley, who is from Blarney, was given an 18-month sentence with 12 months suspended, after he pleaded guilty to the serious assault of a man in Cork city while he was off duty.

However, Judge Sean Ó Donnabháin allowed the case to be re-entered for hearing today, after he accepted that it was both appropriate and lawful to hear the unusual application in the current session.

Today, Mr Foley's Defence Counsel Donal O'Sullivan told the court that he had failed to mention yesterday a principal in law which accepted that some mitigation in sentencing is granted to former guards and prison officers because they were likely to suffer more in prison.

Interesting.

Shield

Moved from Emergency Services to Legal Discussion with permanent redirect.

tmc86

Defence Counsel nearly dropped the ball on that one.

Very controversial case though - Garda Foley admitted throwing a punch but from the injury report it would be hard to believe that one punch caused the described injuries.

You wouldnt want to see him suffer in prison though, fair enough he should serve his punishment but no doubt he would be very much in danger if he went to prison.

What was the revised sentence?

weldoninhio

tmc86 wrote: »

Defence Counsel nearly dropped the ball on that one.

Very controversial case though - Garda Foley admitted throwing a punch but from the injury report it would be hard to believe that one punch caused the described injuries.

You wouldnt want to see him suffer in prison though, fair enough he should serve his punishment but no doubt he would be very much in danger if he went to prison.

What was the revised sentence?

Rapists and child molestors are also huge targets in the prison system, should they also no receive custodial sentences because "you wouldn't want to see him suffer in prison" and "no doubt he would be very much in danger if he went to prison"?? Or for anyone who grasses? Should their sentence be revoked??

This shows up the Irish legal system as backwards!!

tmc86

Rapists and child molestors are also huge targets in the prison system, should they also no receive custodial sentences because "you wouldn't want to see him suffer in prison" and "no doubt he would be very much in danger if he went to prison"?? Or for anyone who grasses? Should their sentence be revoked??

At what point did I say that he should get off? I said that he should serve his punishment however you wouldnt want him to suffer and he would be in a lot of danger if he went to prison.

The responsibilty from then on in lies with the prison staff to do their job and protect their prisoners no matter who they are or what they have done. Obviously due to overcrowding and related difficulties it may be slightly more difficult to provide this protection.

So from this sentence, the courts are confirming that the relevant prison authorities cannot guarantee his protection and thus have used this excuse as a reason to suspend his sentence.

The Irish legal system is backwards you are right about that.

jaybeeveedub

It would seem that the judge decided to rehear regarding sentencing as, because counsel "forgot" to mention at trial that the judge can consider the extra hardship (almost solitary confinement due to risk of getting a slap) faced by a member of AGS as mitigation during sentencing, he would not have been able to raise the issue on appeal to the CCA.

I do agree though that there should be a corollary of S.3 Aggravated Murder for offences committed by Gardai.

234

weldoninhio wrote: »

This shows up the Irish legal system as backwards!!

tmc86 wrote: »

The Irish legal system is backwards you are right about that.

This does not show the Irish legal system up as backwards. This principle forms a minute part of the entire legal system. If you could quantify it in percentage terms it would probably be less than 0.001% of the entire legal system. It does not even seem to be a major principle used in sentencing if the defence counsel forgot to mention it.

While it is undoubtedly illogical and should be abolished it has little bearing on the legal system as a whole. This principle could be old and seldom-used.

This may seem like a rant but people shouldn't use one flaw as evidence that the legla system as a whole is backwards.

Rookster

It could set a precedent in law. Surely child molesters and rapists can now argue that they will not be safe in prison so should be left go free.

BaronVon

Rookster wrote: »

It could set a precedent in law. Surely child molesters and rapists can now argue that they will not be safe in prison so should be left go free.

Law being what it is, I'm sure its been tried before!

autonomy

There are many healthcare courses in college that you have to get a garda vetting for because you will have access to children and vulnerable adults throughout the course, I don't see why this shouldn't apply to guards and if they have a criminal record they should not be allowed to be responsible in helping the public!

jaybeeveedub

Rookster wrote: »

It could set a precedent in law. Surely child molesters and rapists can now argue that they will not be safe in prison so should be left go free.

very few child molesters and rapists plead guilty though...

The_Snapper

Rookster wrote: »

It could set a precedent in law. Surely child molesters and rapists can now argue that they will not be safe in prison so should be left go free.

The UK has a "Rule 43", for nonces and vulnerable and the likes, is there something like that here?

MagicSean

Rookster wrote: »

It could set a precedent in law. Surely child molesters and rapists can now argue that they will not be safe in prison so should be left go free.

Yes because the work done by Gardaí and prison officers is the same as the noble work of the paedophile. :rolleyes:

The former get beaten up because of the good they did, the latter because of the bad.

jakdelad

token101 wrote: »

Saw a guy in the paper today, an off duty garda, convicted for assault. Will he be automatically sacked now from the Gardai? just curious!!!

this case sends out the wrong message
this man dident just get a box
he was severly beaten bones broken teeth missing, a bleed on the brain
its all a fuk dont pay your tv licence fine they haul you off to jail
but a cop who goes on a rampage gets away with it
theres lots of law very little justice
this is a clear cut example of how the system works in favour of some