Web Designer Needed New Business Venture

knockostia

Hello, let me introduce myself. I'm a trainee accountant in a large professional services firm in Dublin. I currently have a large number of business ideas that will be delivered across the internet. However my competencies are not centred around website design, but more business concept/plan development, legal, accountancy, finance, networking, marketing, and team building. I'm tech saavy, but need to develop a synergistic relationship with a web designer. These concepts ideas are only in the pipeline but I'm suffering a massive block due to the absence of proper knowledge of web design systems.

I'm looking to develop an equal business partnership with someone who loves building websites and is quite skilled at it. I envisage us splitting any resultant equity equally between those involved, ideally with not more than four partners. I know a few talented enigmatic graduates on the business side that could be approached.

I believe that the use of mobile devices, permeable connectivity and websites such as google maps will revolutionize the basic economic principle of supply and demand, giving a lot more power to the demand and supply sides of the equation. Three years ago in a tort lecture I envisaged a website that would join consumers together, giving them power to dictate to suppliers in groups. Groupon is a group buying website that was created two years ago. However, all power lies on the supply side, all that is offered is merely coupons, and everything offer is dictated to the consumer.

I do not initially envisage creating something that would do the same job or compete with groupon or rate my area. I have more basic business ideas to start on that focus on the consumer, and the service being offered to them. I also have a very basic recruitment business plan that needs some IT help. I'm not going to go into details here.

So if you are a young, creative, passionate, intelligent web designer with an interest in developing some entrepreneurial projects, and a desire to eventually be your own boss PM me and we'll start developing a business plan.

PCPhoto

most of the people that visit this forum have fantastic ideas/concepts and need someone "with drive, enthusiasm and ability" to create a website for them.

bottom line is ... are you paying money to create this website ? if not why not, what are you bringing to the table (apart from the idea).

the people that want to make the websites also have bills to pay, some have kids to feed, some have husbands, wife's, girlfriends, boyfriends and even parents who are dependent on them earning money.

Don't get me wrong I'm one of the people here with great ideas for business' concepts which could potentially make me and someone capable of developing my ideas loads of money, I'm not trying to justify web programmers/designers fee's (which I believe are excessive - but you sometimes get what you pay for)

unfortunately there is a litany of websites out there which will help you create your website and even help with SEO - there are web designers/programmers out there who will take your money and slowly develop your idea.... and will stop working once the cheques start to bounce.

in short .... having the idea is great, developing the idea and bringing the project to life is where you have to learn and where you WILL make mistakes, financially emotionally and mentally this part will test you !!

knockostia

The initial venture which I'm hoping to develop is more of a business idea rather than merely a website. The website is only an element of the business plan, however an essential one at that. The main revenues from this business will not be generated online. The website will be used to gather data and spread awareness.

It is important to remember that websites are not businesses on their own right and this is certainly true in this case. I have a lot of experience in this business area, one of my contacts who is interested in coming on board is one of the most talented people I have met in this field. I also have some other interestng contacts. So in short I bring the business concept, the expertise in the area, and the contacts to put a great team in place. You are assuming that this is an e-business concept but this is not the case. I also have the ability to raise finance.

People often assume that the ability to build a website is a business in itself. I find it funny that a webdesigner would ask what I bring to the table. There are many builders out there, but not many exceptional houses. I believe that the team I will put together can engineer an excellent working profitable business model. The revenue streams are guaranteed if we get it right.

tricky D

These types of proposals come along quite regularly.

Bottom line as PCPhoto says: will work for money, have bills to pay.

Other issues with these proposals are:
Looking for graduate level person = someone with little real world commercial experience.
'Original, super, fantastic' ideas rarely are as described. I'd prefer to hear something based on an existing model which can be done better, faster, cheaper.
'... and we'll start developing a business plan'. An already developed or partially developed business plan would be much better.
Main revenues not generated from online raises questions as it suggests missing out on up to 4 sales channels.
You say you are at a trainee level.
'I find it funny that a webdesigner would ask what I bring to the table.' Really? (esp in light of above)
'I also have the ability to raise finance.' = affects the split how?
'I know a few talented enigmatic graduates on the business side' ie. with not much experience and enigmatic ie. difficult to interpret or understand; mysterious. Perhaps you've just used the wrong word.
Also if you can raise funds, why not just contract out the work, saving more equity and saving more on legal fees.
You also need more than just a web designer, development and marketing functions need to be covered.

Rethink your pitch and post in the "I need someone to..." - The Work Wanted Superthread (Read first post before posting)

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

knockostia wrote: »

People often assume that the ability to build a website is a business in itself. I find it funny that a webdesigner would ask what I bring to the table. There are many builders out there, but not many exceptional houses. I believe that the team I will put together can engineer an excellent working profitable business model. The revenue streams are guaranteed if we get it right.

Sorry to say it but this comes across as typical big firm arrogance in my opinion. Unless your willing to give up your TRAINEEE "large professional services firm" job or pay the person a full time wage to cover their cost of living while they run your 'idea' it's bound to end in failure.

Your a trainee accountant so i'd be guessing it's not experience or large scale investment you can bring to the table. Raising finance is not your investment. Unless you believe in this idea enough to put your own career on hold to try it you really have no business asking someone else to take the risk on your dream for you.

We see this all the time here. Idea's are not businesses. Not ever.

DrivingTestTips: Brian

I said not long ago!
Great ideas always come first.
Then someone else will come in second make your idea better and create a great business.

If I was willing to work for free I would be very busy.

Also remember this; people will never start a business with a bad idea.

You need to offer a lot more than a % of nothing.

YouBuyLocal

I disagree fundamentally with the views expressed here and find them arrogant and naive.

I won't be posting in this thread as I've expressed all of my views in a very similar thread here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056254051

If you read through it you should get a lot of different views, some good advice and some unwarranted criticism of people in your (our) position.

I'll just say that the best advice I can offer is to get an office, advertise for interns on www.gradireland.com (register at https://dcu.gradireland.com/home.html) and after the interviews explain that you are offering an equity stake/revenue share or an employed position to the right candidate once the internship is over. You'll get a steady stream of applications if you leave the ad up for a month and some will be quality graduates.

Goodluck,
C

amen

I'm a trainee accountant in a large professional services firm

its very different working for yourself, interviewing, forming and managing a team. Running a business is time consuming and can be complicated.

Have you done payroll, vat returns, dealth with irrate customers (CTP, CFO lev) etc

one of the most talented people I have met in this field

that you have meet (most likely in Ireland) while working as trainee in most likely a single company.

There loads of people outside of Ireland with international expertise who are extremely talented.

equal business partnership

so everything is split 50/50, 25/25/25/25 ?

is equity vested immediately or over time?
who determines deliverables and if they have been delivered?
what happens if I join and I actually contribute more?

very basic recruitment business plan

recruitment is changing. Looking at http://careers.stackoverflow.com/?campaign=PrettyHeaderand how they have started a recruitment business.

It is important to remember that websites are not businesses on their own right

depends on the business, google, packback, zoho etc

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

OP can you clarify if you plan on actually leaving the job? I would read into it from your post that you are not planning on leaving the comfort of the 9-5 that your the "idea's man".

PCPhoto

and also if you can clarify if/how you intend to pay someone to do the work creating the business ?

tricky D

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

I won't be posting in this thread as I've expressed all of my views in a very similar thread here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056254051

I'll just say that the best advice I can offer is to get an office, advertise for interns on www.gradireland.com (register at https://dcu.gradireland.com/home.html)

In post #11 in that thread, the OP mentions that he has twice used graduate level workers and twice it has not worked out. In most professions, a graduate is not the finished article and still needs a few years of being taken under someone's wing before they can be signficantly 'let loose'.

YouBuyLocal

tricky D wrote: »

In post #11 in that thread, the OP mentions that he has twice used graduate level workers and twice it has not worked out. In most professions, a graduate is not the finished article and still needs a few years of being taken under someone's wing before they can be signficantly 'let loose'.

If that was true then Daft wouldn't exist.

There is a lot of open-sourced software out there with large programming communities where a person working on a real product with a tangible end result and a lot of guidance and support can learn very quickly.

Then you can reach the point of having the rudimentary elements of the platform where you can credibly apply for finance, having real user growth and maybe revenue, depending upon the model. At that point you may be able to take a "rock-star" (as my partner calls them) on a contract to develop the platform to full spec and further the education of the interns.

This is all disparaging for the sake of it. If he finds someone then great, what is it to yourselves exactly?

Thats definitely my last comment, its like talking to a brick wall that oozes putrid negativity here.

PCPhoto

youbuylocal - you always seem to be hitting the negativity that people throw out to wannabe starters.

the fact is starting a business is 99% hard work and anyone looking to get someone to build a website for free (no payment has been offered ....equity seems to be the best on offer.... but equity in something that might not make money is wasted)

people cannot get professional websites built for nothing.... people that build websites need to pay bills and someone working as a trainee (no offence intended) probably wont be able to pay for a website to be created properly.

I'm currently looking for someone (programmer and designer) to build my dream, but I'm not willing to look for someone to do it for free (its not fair to try take advantage of someone starting out ...or someone desperate for work)

knockostia

The business idea involves improving a process that every professional firm uses and is willing to pay for sometimes large amounts. I have experience in this area having gone through this process and having spoken to a number of people about the idea, some quite cynical, they generally agree it could work. It involves improving the graduate recruitment process. It is only in the pipeline and the prospective person would be part of the project development team on an equal footing, it might therefore suit someone who has another main job and who is'nt that cynical. I'm looking to set up a company consisting of no more than 4 partners, one being the web designer. All will share equally in the equity of the company. I'm not all arrogant about my accountancy position, and its in an unrelated field. The website is only a part of the business plan and most of the work will involve liasing with professional firms and promoting the company on college campuses. I'm just looking to establish the team.

m-a-i-

knockostia wrote: »

The business idea involves improving a process that every professional firm uses and is willing to pay for sometimes large amounts. I have experience in this area having gone through this process and having spoken to a number of people about the idea, some quite cynical, they generally agree it could work. It involves improving the graduate recruitment process. It is only in the pipeline and the prospective person would be part of the project development team on an equal footing, it might therefore suit someone who has another main job and who is'nt that cynical. I'm looking to set up a company consisting of no more than 4 partners, one being the web designer. All will share equally in the equity of the company. I'm not all arrogant about my accountancy position, and its in an unrelated field. The website is only a part of the business plan and most of the work will involve liasing with professional firms and promoting the company on college campuses. I'm just looking to establish the team.

Hiya

I really do like what you have said in this and other posts but it is struck me that you have not asked the supposedly vital questions that posters are asking. Are you willing to pay for a web designer...imo it doesn't matter how big or small it is to the grander scheme of things but it IS important that you set the record straight as to whether you are wanting someone to do this for free.

How is equity being split do you know? Its not bad that you might not know but tell the people who are interested that you don't yet know instead of this kind of "politician" talk

I worked in web design and it IS important that the web designer knows what scale of project ( and budget ) they are working with because its NOT fair to make them do so much work and then be like "hang on a sec I'm not paying" - I've come across this. I'm not saying you are like this (you are possibly the complete opposite) but I'm sure you can understand why web designers would ask and would be a bit sceptical if they are not given an answer

Best of luck with it though

What? Oh Rly!

OP, it sounds like want a web developer who can program, not a web designer or do you want a jack of all trades who "can do it all" too?

YouBuyLocal

PCPhoto wrote: »

youbuylocal - you always seem to be hitting the negativity that people throw out to wannabe starters.

the fact is starting a business is 99% hard work and anyone looking to get someone to build a website for free (no payment has been offered ....equity seems to be the best on offer.... but equity in something that might not make money is wasted)

people cannot get professional websites built for nothing.... people that build websites need to pay bills and someone working as a trainee (no offence intended) probably wont be able to pay for a website to be created properly.

I'm currently looking for someone (programmer and designer) to build my dream, but I'm not willing to look for someone to do it for free (its not fair to try take advantage of someone starting out ...or someone desperate for work)

Yes, its this kind of rubbish that annoys me. Everyone needs to pay bills, not just programmers.

Nobody is being taken advantage of. Some people want to pitch business plans to prospective partners but they are not going to throw out the entire business model or equity share agreements on a public forum.

If you are not interested then it would be best that you stopped posting. It makes no sense to post on a thread that you are not interested in. The OP is looking for people who are interested and/or advice on how to find them and what type of individuals his team needs. Programmers are not children, they are free agents, you don't have to look after them and make sure they are not "taken advantage of." If he eventually pitches the concept to some people and they don't like it then grand, but you don't know who he is, how much work is involved in business development and what is required of the developer, so why are assuming he is trying to "take advantage" of people. Its rubbish and down right arrogant.

The equity share would depend on many things, including how long the individual would intend to stay with the company (if it was just about developing a site and then leaving then a revenue share agreement for a limited period is much more appropriate). That is not something the OP has to worry about or explain to people he doesn't know. That is an agreement nailed down through negotiations. People here asking what kind of equity share agreement would be put in place before understanding what is entailed in the business is ridiculus.

Again, good luck OP. Don't be disparaged. In the real world businesses are started up the way you are doing it every single day. If you find someone that likes the concept and you can work with then great. If not, then thats life and there is always the next thing you can move onto.

PS I have 4 interns on now who are relatively competent and know that they will benefit massively if the business is succesful and I am not paying them. They understand how much work I have put in and am putting in daily in off-line market research & development, bringing in partners, finance, team-building, buying equipment & software, paying for the office, project management, etc, etc, etc... and have shown none of the gripiness and high-maintenance of people here. Worst case scenario is you fail and everyone learns something - not the end of the world!

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

I think your wrong here, YourBuyLocal. This thread is about a guy who wants to keep his cushy job, he's bringing an idea to the table and wants someone else to do the leg work unpaid. He's taking no risk, if the idea was as good as he thinks the firm would invest in it and pay it's staff to work on the project. If he was bringing equal hours, investment etc it would be different but it seems he's the idea man and needs someone to actually make it happen.

In what you're doing at least your investing your own time to work on the project full time and investing some money in the form of renting an office. I'm not sure i'd say it's fair on the interns, as an internship is generally meant for students to learn from more experienced business people. I'm not sure as an employer if someone presented that they we're sucked in as free labour under the guise of an internship that it would reflect well on them in terms of ever working for any of my businesses. So the worst case really is that other employers like me find them less appealing as potential employees.

I can share my experience from the site I launched a few years ago zumpty, which although had many positives, in reality was a bit of a disaster.

One of the reasons it didnt go well, was that I didnt know enough about building websites, running websites etc that are the main source of the businesses income. The problem with that is I thought everything I had in my head would be easy for a developer to do, and could be done in no time at all. It wasnt the case and it led to so many problems with the site, frustrations and errors. And at the time I was working on it full time, 14 hours a day, not sitting back.

I see this as a big pitfall for someone looking to get a developer partner to work for equity. The problem is the entrepreneur sees it as simple and easy to put together, but the developer see it as a sh**load of work, many many hours, but possibly nothing at the end of it. And there is a big gap in how both parties see things, until the entrepreneur has a proper grasp of web business.
I understand now its a massive gamble for a developer to do this on a project of any size at all. A couple of years ago I wouldnt have said it wasnt, but knowing the business now I can certainly see the high risk. The developer is also risking that you the founder are the real deal as well and you won't run away if something happens, or get bored and lose interest. How many startups fail in the first year? 90%? So your developer has a 90% chance of making nothing from this, but would have dozens of hours of coding etc. He might be better going down to the Sporting Emporium. Thats not negativity YBL, its reality. They are really the odds. an entrepreneur like yourself might be a gambler and will to battle odds like that, and be happy to learn from the mistakes if it fails, but the average joe would be like wtf? no way!

I've just launched the site below www.distributeyourproduct.com but I didn't even consider for a second asking for someone to do it for free, because I can understand it from a developers perspective now and even the smallest web ideas in the mind of the entrepreneur are much bigger work loads for a developer.
If the developer is making mistakes I can put pressure on him, because Im paying him for it and he has to do it right, hard to do that if someones working for free and trying to get things done in their spare time. I have worked with designers who are friends of mine, and they have done things for free, but it is always weeks late because I cant get angry or crack the whip with someone doing something for free now can I?

If you want to get interns to design it and do the work, you are going to get intern quality work, and its a bit off as Ronan says. If you want people do do it for free for you, the quality is going to suffer.
For me its not about whether you can do it this way or not, yes you can do it just like youbuylocal says, but in the end you are going to have an inferior result. Thats the two cents from my experience.
My advice is use your ingenuity to raise some finance, and use your finance to pay people to build the site (you are in accountancy, a suitable business for getting to people with money). There are great deals out there im sure from developers who need work and would be willing to give you discounts. I got one for the dyp site, and I'm happy with the results.

PCPhoto

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

Yes, its this kind of rubbish that annoys me. Everyone needs to pay bills, not just programmers.

Nobody is being taken advantage of.

I totally agree - Everyone has bills so why should the developers work for nothing and the OP continue in their job earning money.... if someone is working for free they are being taken advantage of, it happens in all walks of life , in business it is usually hailed as "work experience/internships" ... free work in exchange for experience.

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

Some people want to pitch business plans to prospective partners but they are not going to throw out the entire business model or equity share agreements on a public forum.

If you are not interested then it would be best that you stopped posting. It makes no sense to post on a thread that you are not interested in.

I agree its not right to throw the business model out on a public forum or equity share agreements, I disagree with you claiming "it would be best if I stopped posting" - I'm giving the OP some perspective from my experience its not fair or right to get someone to work for free.

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

The OP is looking for people who are interested and/or advice on how to find them and what type of individuals his team needs.

The OP is not looking for advice on where to find gullible types of people to work for free.... he/she is looking for advice on the concept/idea.

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

Programmers are not children, they are free agents, you don't have to look after them and make sure they are not "taken advantage of." If he eventually pitches the concept to some people and they don't like it then grand, but you don't know who he is, how much work is involved in business development and what is required of the developer, so why are assuming he is trying to "take advantage" of people. Its rubbish and down right arrogant.

I'm offended..... my attitude is not arrogant... Its realistic !! - the OP is looking for someone to create a business while he/she works away in their own little apprenticeship, meaning they are hoping someone can earn them money while not paying them anything (nothing has been mentioned/offered on thread)

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

The equity share would depend on many things, including how long the individual would intend to stay with the company (if it was just about developing a site and then leaving then a revenue share agreement for a limited period is much more appropriate). That is not something the OP has to worry about or explain to people he doesn't know. That is an agreement nailed down through negotiations. People here asking what kind of equity share agreement would be put in place before understanding what is entailed in the business is ridiculus.

Again, good luck OP. Don't be disparaged. In the real world businesses are started up the way you are doing it every single day. If you find someone that likes the concept and you can work with then great. If not, then thats life and there is always the next thing you can move onto.

PS I have 4 interns on now who are relatively competent and know that they will benefit massively if the business is succesful and I am not paying them. They understand how much work I have put in and am putting in daily in off-line market research & development, bringing in partners, finance, team-building, buying equipment & software, paying for the office, project management, etc, etc, etc... and have shown none of the gripiness and high-maintenance of people here. Worst case scenario is you fail and everyone learns something - not the end of the world!

you are investing your time, money and experience into your startup - the OP has not offered anything except an idea/concept, which we don't know anything about so might not be able to point the OP in the direction of an already functioning competitor if it exists.

if I can be so bold .... do your "interns" have much previous experience before starting the internship ?

knockostia

I'm offering an equal opportunity to have an equal part in something new. Having gone through the graduate recruitment process myself, and having friends who secured top law, finance, and consultancy positions, I know whats involved and have spotted a serious gap in the market. I'm not going to divulge any more information here at present. I also have identified some very useful people to bring on board, who would have extremely good connections with regard to grant applications,finance ect. The project is just in its infancy, and before a team is assembled and serious work begun, I want to bring in one member who's area of expertise is web design/data mining.
It might suit a college student if they are capable of doing the job needed. Its important to remember that this is not an e-business venture. The primary revenue streams will stem from the professional services firms themselves. Thus we are not trying to earn money from broke students.
I feel that this would be an exciting opportunity for a prospective web designer. The business will be built on the principles of integrity, trust, and equal participation. And although the business plan itself is primarily money driven, it is not my sole motivation.

YouBuyLocal

It sounds like the OP has a good handle on what he wants to do. It would be easy to go back and forth here with no benefit to anyone. My experience disagrees with yours, obviously. I am comfortable in my moral position on this and am happy to treat people as free agents and adults.

Just as an example, I was about to take on someone working for Google who wasn't getting the stimulating work we wanted. He was about to leave his job to "be taken advantage of" but I candidly told him that I would not like him to regret his decision down the line as this would be a bigger risk for him than other interns. So I said he should take three weeks, research the position and the market and come to a clear-minded decision that he wouldn't regret. Because he is a foreign national and leaving a job would leave him in a precarious position were the business to fail (he would be out of the welfare system indefinitely and could be stuck without a job and would not even qualify for health benefits if he had an accident). So because he was extremely interested in the prospects for the business and the team we were putting together he decided to remain in his job. We said we would keep in touch and would be happy to work together later when we obtained funding. He even said he would work for minimal pay to be involved in the project as he believes it is very exciting.

So the picture you are painting does not cohere with my real-world experience. 'Nough said.

(why do I let myself get pulled into this rubbish:/)

calahans

I can see both sides of the argument. To get the site ready will involve a LOT more work for the developer than the idea person, however after that point the balance of work should shift to the business person. Your idea could in effect be months work for a developer, and as someone mentioned, it can be often misunderstood by the non tech person. Saying that, if the idea is good enough then the developer is lucky to get on board!

If you idea is good enough then stick to your guns and try to get someone to develop it for free. The true test will be when you pitch it.

You can also post it on collab.ie

Best of luck with it!

amen

want to bring in one member who's area of expertise is web design/data mining.

I'm confused. Web design is totally different from web programming which can be totally different from programming and all of them are totally different from data mining.

Now you can find someone who has these skills but it won't be a graduate. Most likely someone with several years work experience and they won't come cheap.

No offense to Grads but Grads out of college think they know everything but generally they just know how to program and they can even be dangerous at that. Most don't write defensive code, handle errors correctly, use source code repositories, have little experience of databases and no experience of developing and designing large scalable web based applications. They also lack the experience to identify pitfalls in their logic/code/ides and how to deal effectively with unexpected issues especially in a live environment.

Have you though about redundancy ? Backup solutions/

You talk about having a team for funding and getting people on board but if this is going to be business where you will be getting paid you will also need back office systems and people to work in them. You will need cash control teams, customer service, QA, Testers, print room etc.

If you are going to be multi country have you considered the legal ramifications of data storage, localisation of your web pages?

having friends who secured top law, finance, and consultancy positions, I know whats involved and have spotted a serious gap in the market

how many of these jobs exists in Ireland ? why would a company use you ? Have you done your research ?

If you were serious and you have 2 friends already lined up then I would think you could get a very good site depending on the complexity for €10,000 which between 3 is only €3,333.

If you thought you had international growth you could approach EI.

As a Trainee accountant does your contact prohibit you from working/owning other companies and does any IP pass to your day job ? If so how will that impact those who choose to work with you.

PCPhoto

OP best of luck with it - be sure to post back here if/when you launch.

tricky D

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

If that was true then Daft wouldn't exist

The very few rare exceptions do not disprove the general rule.

amen wrote: »

I'm confused. Web design is totally different from web programming which can be totally different from programming and all of them are totally different from data mining.

Now you can find someone who has these skills but it won't be a graduate. Most likely someone with several years work experience and they won't come cheap.

No offense to Grads but Grads out of college think they know everything but generally they just know how to program and they can even be dangerous at that. Most don't write defensive code, handle errors correctly, use source code repositories, have little experience of databases and no experience of developing and designing large scalable web based applications. They also lack the experience to identify pitfalls in their logic/code/ides and how to deal effectively with unexpected issues especially in a live environment.

Add the not inconsiderable Internet marketing function to that list.

BostonB

I'm not really sure what the point of these developer for equity topics. Is it a discussion on how to do it, get the developer, set up the business, which would be suitable for here, or is the OP simply posting an advert for a developer...If the latter it might get more interest, from interested developers if it was on adverts. Just a thought.

AstonMartin

What knowledge does a trainee accountant have? What do you bring to the table?

i know a good few trainee accountants and their pretty clueless about what it takes to run a business beyond a basic audit.

sinergise? if you use that language around real business folk they will start to suspect you are a spoofer.

bobbytables

BostonB wrote: »

I'm not really sure what the point of these developer for equity topics. Is it a discussion on how to do it, get the developer, set up the business, which would be suitable for here, or is the OP simply posting an advert for a developer...If the latter it might get more interest, from interested developers if it was on adverts. Just a thought.

Agree completely. I come from both a long term developer & shorter term business background (both spanning many years) and still post on threads like this purely because I believe in peer-learning & want to assist indigenous enterprise where I can. What is tiring me though is that successful businesses built around technology need both technical competencies and business competencies in equal measure; yet time & time again so many non-technical entrepreneurs (in Ireland particularly) don't seem to accept that. As I say to people, an idea alone will never feed a home, and everyone has plenty of those. Not even India would invest their time without finance available, despite the challenges/risks exclusively associated with outsourcing overseas. I just had to stop replying to the same old posts on the Web Design & Developer forums here on boards.ie with DIY business people using words like "just", "quick", "small" & "simple" when it came to technical issues. Their language consistently implied their underestimation of the problem domain that they were venturing in to, and was usually more reflective of the level of finance they had available. Just because you don't like what you are hearing doesn't mean it's lies. Despite what we read in the media, the success stories were rarely achieved with ease, but that wouldn't make exciting news. When non-technical people ask me to talk about solutions to technical problems they generally don't like the level of detail that one needs to get in to in order solve it. You can see it in their eyes after a few seconds that the reality was much more complex than they expected or cared to get in to. Developing successful apps is not trivial. Just like sales isn't as simple as walking up to a person and saying "buy this, it's technically brilliant" and expecting that to be enough to close.

It's understandable though, in a world of freemium business models, free to download/use open source projects, etc, the message is often interpreted as "Why pay, when you can get for free" or "Why build, when you can freely download and adjust". There just appears to be paths of less resistance and that's a popular misconception when you lack the relevant level of technical foresight required by most tech start-ups.

I applaud people like Deleted User (above) for having the balls to admit they were once wrong in years gone by. So many others, years later still can't admit or even see their mistake. I made plenty of similar mistakes too (but from the other side) before I got involved in business. I once believed that the best or most innovative technology simply attracted the most money and that couldn't be farthest from the truth. It took me long enough to accept that a tech business needs a strong business acumen also, bringing with it it's own ability to foresee and leap relative hurdles. Do both sides clash?, absolutely!, usually when one underestimates the hurdles that exist in the other's path, before ideally merging at a place we call a venture goal or milestone. Mutual respect will get you there sooner.

I have friends, whom I've known for 20+ years who still come out with phrases like "Jaysus, if I had only thought of that" or "They stole my idea (joking)" when reading about the latest business success story. It can take seconds to come up with a brilliant idea with high profit potential, you just have to open your eyes to the world around you. What you do after that and right up until you reach your end goal is the hard part and what's important. Not the idea itself. Also the person that comes up with the idea will usually be the one so excited by it's potential, they will be the last to accept that it may not be feasible. Fight on, I say!, but recognize that developers are used to hearing from people with ideas, looking to partner up. Also if a more experienced developer thinks a job will take more time to pull off than a student or recent graduate, don't dismiss them as being more risky. Their experience has taught them to identify and manage more important hurdles that will keep you safe from negative attention when your venture is under the spotlight.

That's my 2c.

calahans

bobbytables wrote: »

Agree completely. I come from both a long term developer & shorter term business background (both spanning many years) and still post on threads like this purely because I believe in peer-learning & want to assist indigenous enterprise where I can. What is tiring me though is that successful businesses built around technology need both technical competencies and business competencies in equal measure; yet time & time again so many non-technical entrepreneurs (in Ireland particularly) don't seem to accept that. As I say to people, an idea alone will never feed a home, and everyone has plenty of those. Not even India would invest their time without finance available, despite the challenges/risks exclusively associated with outsourcing overseas. I just had to stop replying to the same old posts on the Web Design & Developer forums here on boards.ie with DIY business people using words like "just", "quick", "small" & "simple" when it came to technical issues. Their language consistently implied their underestimation of the problem domain that they were venturing in to, and was usually more reflective of the level of finance they had available. Just because you don't like what you are hearing doesn't mean it's lies. Despite what we read in the media, the success stories were rarely achieved with ease, but that wouldn't make exciting news. When non-technical people ask me to talk about solutions to technical problems they generally don't like the level of detail that one needs to get in to in order solve it. You can see it in their eyes after a few seconds that the reality was much more complex than they expected or cared to get in to. Developing successful apps is not trivial. Just like sales isn't as simple as walking up to a person and saying "buy this, it's technically brilliant" and expecting that to be enough to close.

It's understandable though, in a world of freemium business models, free to download/use open source projects, etc, the message is often interpreted as "Why pay, when you can get for free" or "Why build, when you can freely download and adjust". There just appears to be paths of less resistance and that's a popular misconception when you lack the relevant level of technical foresight required by most tech start-ups.

I applaud people like Deleted User (above) for having the balls to admit they were once wrong in years gone by. So many others, years later still can't admit or even see their mistake. I made plenty of similar mistakes too (but from the other side) before I got involved in business. I once believed that the best or most innovative technology simply attracted the most money and that couldn't be farthest from the truth. It took me long enough to accept that a tech business needs a strong business acumen also, bringing with it it's own ability to foresee and leap relative hurdles. Do both sides clash?, absolutely!, usually when one underestimates the hurdles that exist in the other's path, before ideally merging at a place we call a venture goal or milestone. Mutual respect will get you there sooner.

I have friends, whom I've known for 20+ years who still come out with phrases like "Jaysus, if I had only thought of that" or "They stole my idea (joking)" when reading about the latest business success story. It can take seconds to come up with a brilliant idea with high profit potential, you just have to open your eyes to the world around you. What you do after that and right up until you reach your end goal is the hard part and what's important. Not the idea itself. Also the person that comes up with the idea will usually be the one so excited by it's potential, they will be the last to accept that it may not be feasible. Fight on, I say!, but recognize that developers are used to hearing from people with ideas, looking to partner up. Also if a more experienced developer thinks a job will take more time to pull off than a student or recent graduate, don't dismiss them as being more risky. Their experience has taught them to identify and manage more important hurdles that will keep you safe from negative attention when your venture is under the spotlight.

That's my 2c.

That's one of the best posts I have read here in a while.

amen

+1 for that post

blacksmiths

Great idea and i am here to avail this opportunity. I am web design and web marketing team with strong portfolio and references in UK, Japan, Saudia, Pakistan and many other countries. I am always looking for such opportunities where i can establish long term relations.
Please add me on skype

skype: kashifnazeer1

and we will discuss further

bobbytables

Great idea and i am here to avail this opportunity. I am web design and web marketing team with strong portfolio and references in UK, Japan, Saudia, Pakistan and many other countries. I am always looking for such opportunities where i can establish long term relations.
Please add me on skype

skype: kashifnazeer1

and we will discuss further

Hmmm....5 posts, not based in Ireland, breaking the rules, yes this is exactly the sort of thing I was encouraging. Well played sir /tips hat

Do you honestly think that the rest of the developers (the majority of which are within driving distance) on this forum are scratching their heads in awe of your ingenious strategy?. There is that little issue regarding local cultural policies & etiquette.

Also do you know how often I'm personally contacted by offshore/overseas development companies looking to transform me (and many others I know) in to glorified middlemen with dreams of retiring young. At least twice if not three times a week!. Companies based overseas cannot do what local developers can do for indigenous start-ups. However it's the people who don't/can't foresee the existence of certain hurdles both during and after project completion, are the sort you're fishing for. Damn, it's just a pity you pitched at this stage in the thread.

I think if you genuinely understood the core messages in my post & several others on this thread, you would have acted differently. Maybe you don't know how. Hmmm, actually if you don't know how to do that at this stage, maybe there's other important things you don't account for either.

Local developers that don't know how to compete with you, simply lack experience in project life-cycles / dynamics, or have not realized the very real benefits of their involvement in local start-ups.

celtictiger32

sorry for jumping on lads but just curious what kind of price would i pay for a decent website (design, hosting the whole shebang) for a football club?

(.ie preferably)

rossc007

celtictiger32 wrote: »

sorry for jumping on lads but just curious what kind of price would i pay for a decent website (design, hosting the whole shebang) for a football club?

(.ie preferably)

From the sounds of it Blacksmiths will have you up and running in no time for under a tenner...

celtictiger32

rossc007 wrote: »

From the sounds of it Blacksmiths will have you up and running in no time for under a tenner...

excuse my ignorance but is that a design company or........

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

celtictiger32 wrote: »

sorry for jumping on lads but just curious what kind of price would i pay for a decent website (design, hosting the whole shebang) for a football club?

(.ie preferably)

Visit http://www.gettingbusinessonline.ie/ and have one of the computer literate members to make it up in an hour using the free tool. With this initiative Google / Blacknight are offering everything free .ie domain, hosting for a year. A football club doesn't need to have an expensive site in my opinion. You might need one or two hours help from a graphics designer but that would be the only cost.

Eviledna

celtictiger32 wrote: »

excuse my ignorance but is that a design company or........

No, it's the less than credibile poster 4 posts above.
And to reiterate, you can't possibly expect a ballpark without defining fully what you want on the website. Perhaps read through the thread to learn more.

celtictiger32

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

Visit http://www.gettingbusinessonline.ie/ and have one of the computer literate members to make it up in an hour using the free tool. With this initiative Google / Blacknight are offering everything free .ie domain, hosting for a year. A football club doesn't need to have an expensive site in my opinion. You might need one or two hours help from a graphics designer but that would be the only cost.

was just hoping to have a site with a few pages on it info, galleries etc. and hopefully one that i could update myself i.e leagues and scores and that. also was hoping to have some kind of small purchase page for maybe t-shirts or tracksuits etc.

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

See once you move to e-commerce that's a different game altogether. Other than that you can have the functionality for almost free, in clubs there is always someone who can do up a basic site. On the other hand if you're looking for a professional to do the job you're talking in the region of 1-5k.

celtictiger32

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan wrote: »

See once you move to e-commerce that's a different game altogether. Other than that you can have the functionality for almost free, in clubs there is always someone who can do up a basic site. On the other hand if you're looking for a professional to do the job you're talking in the region of 1-5k.

woah was kind of expecting maybe a couple of hundred think ill have to look at that again

bobbytables

It depends what you need. "A" website can be thrown together for next to nothing. "The" website that will have a positive impact on your club will most likely require more skill/time & subsequently cost more. My advice to you would be to understand the difference between what is offered for the various quotations you end up receiving if you request quotes in advance of sitting down and discussing projects in detail with anyone.

Ask questions, lots of them. The good providers will want to talk to you at length about your project & options and bring new information to the table. The bad ones will just give you a low quote, get the money in, and send you on your way, still uncertain if you got a good deal.

So I encourage you to sit down with designers/developers and first talk about the goals of the project, E.g. the real motivation for the existence of the website in the first place, etc. Otherwise you will never be able to benchmark your ROI. It's common sense.

If you still think the above seems excessive or doesn't look like a good advice, go and download Joomla, get a football theme for a club, stick in your club's name and don't pay any more than about €100 - 200 in "assistance" to get it up and running and a few more quid for annual hosting/domain name costs. Worst case scenario, you will have a web presence for your club. Will you be making the good use of the web?, and by "good" I don't mean most expensive; definitely not I'm afraid.

Quotes shouldn't be possible, until the provider has invested some time to fully understand the goals/requirements of a project. Those that do offer quotes, base the project's scope purely on assumption. I don't know about you, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that someone who is not involved in your club is going to have a better understanding of it's needs than you, so I don't think paying for something based on an assumption is smart.

Initiatives like http://www.gettingbusinessonline.ie/ should only ever be treated as a last resort when money is simply not available. They are not equal alternatives to what professionals offer and people who have recently had a professionally designed/developed website should be able to see the difference just from the presentation alone. For example, look at the gallery on that site for a portfolio of example sites generated. You couldn't argue that they are that far apart in terms of design/layout and content placeholders, let alone the myriad of other important considerations that are simply not accounted for (by design) of that service.

At the end of the day, every website represents something unique, and the flexibility offered by the very design of a free service such as that simply could not fulfill all the requirements of every project. So the difference is that you are given the tools that they have already made available for free, and you must attempt to make it fit your needs as best you can. On the otherhand a professional that you pay to have the job done, will not be handing you something and hoping you can work with it, they will listen to what you need a develop it in such a way that it fulfills all your needs.

Why?, because in the latter case the designer/developer is thinking about just you, not the generic needs of millions of others.

bobbytables

Actually hang on, I'm losing the run of myself. The title of this thread has caused some confusion and we've ended up discussing very different applications of web technologies, i.e. websites vs web apps/platforms.

Just to be clear, there is a generally a big difference between the two in terms of project scope. The venture www.gettingbusinessonline.ie is a web platform that generates websites. They're both applications of web technologies, but both exist for very different reasons.

DubTony

I've generally avoided these "Gimme a website for a cut" threads, but find myself in the position where I'll soon need the skills of "internet people".

So based on that sentence, if you were to assume that I haven't a bull's notion what I need or where to start, you'd be close enough to the truth. I know my idea needs a web site to show the products I'll have available. That's easy. But even I know that the "pages" are the simplest part of the whole operation. There's the customer interaction bit as well. And the paying money part. And it seems to me that all this would sit on top of, or in front of, or somewhere near to the thing in the background that will do all the work. and then there's the equipment. Not just the computers and servers, but the machines that actually make the product I have to sell. And then of course there's the ... yada yada yada ....

It seems to me that many of the guys with "the next great idea" don't just have no clue about web coding / development / site building etc, but they really have no clue about business in general. How many businesses actually get started with 2 guys in a garage with no money and no knowledge. Damn all if you ask me. If you've got the knowledge ( and a plan) you can get the money. If you've got the money you can buy the knowledge. But seriously, to expect someone to work for nothing with the hope that there'll be some reward later is really unrealistic. (The exception is that another business owner will provide the services of his employees in return for shares - but he's called an investor. He'll be paying his guys along the way) As El Rifle already said, most guys don't even understand the concept of "work now - get paid later". And if someone who's prepared to do that, and didn't have an entrepreneurial nature, popped up, you'd have to ask how much self respect he had, and how much dedication he would bring to the table. Entrepreneurs understand that a "Fair Day for a Fair Pay" is (excuse the expression) working stiff mentality. The entrepreneur thinks differently. He's wired differently. "I'll do the work now so that I can develop the business and receive a massively unfair reward later on".

But one thing the (haha ... you'll like this) UN-entrepreneur (told you ) doesn't get is as important as anything else. Ethics and Values. Most businesses start up with a desire to do one thing. Make Money. But what has to happen is that somebody must see some value in what's offered and be willing to pay an agreed price. While this is generally enough to win a few customers, after a while the business with low ethics and values gets found out. This is either because of poor service, a dodgy product or a myriad of other things. But when a company's ethics and values are in place and adhered to, the business usually thrives. If I said "Come for the prices and stay for the service" I'd bet that 95% of the population of Dublin would know what I was talking about. In general, SuperQuinn thrived until Quinn sold it. He had built the whole business on the customer experience and so wasn't usually dragged into the whole price-war thing. The new owners didn't have the same values and this filtered into the organisation. Business fell off.

The point here is this: what sort of ethics and values does somebody have, if they expect to find somebody who will effectively work for nothing? If this is how a business gets off the ground, there's a strong possibility that with the wrong types of values in place, the business won't survive.

While there are many reasons for business failure, strong ethics and values are rarely a factor in that failure. Here's another, more personal, example. I took over a business in 2006 and developed a huge focus on customer service. My employees were trained to do the job with the customer in mind. By changing very little else, I increased turnover by 40% in 6 months. However, a competitor opened close by and took away 30% of my business leaving me in a position where I was now turning over less than I had been when I started. This was disastrous for me as I had projected to break even at a figure somewhere in between the new and old sales. The competitor however, treated his staff like crap, resulting in his staff treating his customers like crap, but it wasn't enough to drive his business down. Simple fact is that he was supported by the local community because he came from there. I didn't. However, when I closed the business, one of his employees (also from the area) took it over and using the values my staff brought with them (he found and employed them) he got "my" business (:o yeah ... I'll get over it) back to where it was before the other guy opened. The other guy is now struggling.

So - there it is. Sorry for the long post. But the point is important. A business needs to start with a strong positive culture to have any chance of success. Those that don't are usually lucky to get off the ground, but will suffer as a consequence later on anyway. The answer is to have a full belief in your idea, pitch it to investors / banks / family and friends, get the money and then pay somebody (with strong values ) to do what needs to be done to get the thing up and running.

edit: If anyone's got a strong counter to this, I'd love to hear - just to be sure I can recognise another point of view in case I'm living in cloud cuckoo land.

Kinetic^

celtictiger32 wrote: »

woah was kind of expecting maybe a couple of hundred think ill have to look at that again

It's very much a case of pay peanuts, get monkeys. Anyone who you are going to ask to get work carried out by, look at their portfolio and ask for references.

celtictiger32

Kinetic^ wrote: »

It's very much a case of pay peanuts, get monkeys. Anyone who you are going to ask to get work carried out by, look at their portfolio and ask for references.

it kind of sounds like the online shop thing would shoot up the cost but if it were just your run of the mill football site it might not be overly expensive.

bobbytables

Firstly fair play for getting this thread back on track.

DubTony wrote: »

I've generally avoided these "Gimme a website for a cut" threads

You had more sense, I still get too involved. Except now I don't spend so much time talking to business people trying to be techies on the tech forums. Instead I try and talk business with them here first

I particularly agree with the following...

DubTony wrote: »

It seems to me that many of the guys with "the next great idea" don't just have no clue about web coding / development / site building etc, but they really have no clue about business in general. How many businesses actually get started with 2 guys in a garage with no money and no knowledge. Damn all if you ask me. If you've got the knowledge ( and a plan) you can get the money. If you've got the money you can buy the knowledge. But seriously, to expect someone to work for nothing with the hope that there'll be some reward later is really unrealistic.

I think it takes a certain level of experience in this line of business before too many people accept this truth. Also as Kinetic^ says:

It's very much a case of pay peanuts, get monkeys.

All I'm saying to people is that web related projects are in demand. Whether you want a website, a web app/platform, or to build a business around some application of web technology, there are a lot of hurdles, in both the business and tech domains respectively.

People that don't have money will justify not spending a penny on anything as opposed to recognizing the value of things that do cost money. I have had countless people try and convince me that websites in general should not cost more that 1k from concept to completion. Yet when I question every one of those people about whether or not their own website includes or accounts for certain things, they simply don't know. How the hell could you determine if you got value for money if you don't know what it is you have. Unless you get educated about what you're investing in, you'll always be at the mercy of cowboys who are waiting to convince you that you're getting a good deal, by just giving you what you think you need. No questions, no dialog, no education, you'll never know. Even the most basic 1 page websites require & deserve more than a 5 minute conversation in advance of quotation.

It doesn't matter if what you got was for free, €1,000 or €10,000, everything has respective features, benefits, limitations & restrictions. It's your job ultimately to ensure what you pay for best suits your business, considering all of the above. This can be said for any product or service, web related or other.

Another one that I've seen many times over the years...
Business Person: I need a website, how much will one cost?
Web Professional: It depends, why do you need a website?
Business Person: [a muttering of some vague idea]. Look I'm in a hurry can you not just tell me how much one will cost?

Websites should only be created to solve or attack a set of one or more problems. The problems they can solve are not exclusively tied to advertising or promotion or e-commerce. The web is a dynamic platform, that connects people. The level & range of services that can be placed between those people (however they connect) is infinite. A website promoting your business is only one popular example of such a service.

But how the hell would anyone know that there are more options than the above. You have to talk to developers. Web professionals have packages for popular applications of web technologies purely because they are popular. It's by no means a definition of the complete set of what is possible. There are plenty of things that can be done for businesses that would better fit their needs and possibly offer a much better ROI, than assuming the popular options will get you there sooner.

Any business person that doesn't understand this, really has no idea of the potential of the web and and what good developers can do.

YouBuyLocal

@DubTony & Bobbytables

Your comments are reasonable to a point. There are a lot of people that don't appreciate what developing a web-platform, app or site really entails and don't necessarily even have the business acumen to deliver growth or a return once it developed.

But saying that the OP is one of these people is pure speculation. So I don't really see your point there. The OP was looking for help. You could say no thanks. I've had a lot of no thanks in the past 9 months, it doesn't hurt because if he really believes in the concept then he will just move on and find another way forward. (Persistence and a willingness to learn is key here.) What else is there to add to the thread except that? Nobody here can say anything about the OPs competencies, what level of work is involved in the site and what percentage of the workload it is of his business. It might be significant or it might be a simple generic platform.

I know yee are only speaking from experience. I myself was the young ejit with an "idea" before I received mentorship and the confidence of someone knowledgeable and experienced. But there are serious opportunities out there for developers in niche markets so I don't see why you would automatically ridicule the OPs post. It may be only a 10% chance that he has a real viable business and the acumen to pull it off with a team, but that 10% chance could have a serious reward attached and it costs very little find out (I don't mean any commitment, just discussion for a couple of hours and a few e-mail correspondence). I investigate absolutely every potential opportunity, however small, because that is just what you have to do to find a diamond.

I know people are being more rude than they would in real life, I do it myself, its just part of the internet and the lack of a face behind the text, but people should really think before they run down a young entrepreneur, its pretty obscene tbh

TheCostumeShop.ie: Ronan

YouBuyLocal wrote: »

the lack of a face behind the text, but people should really think before they run down a young entrepreneur, its pretty obscene tbh

It's not about running him down, there really is no point in clapping someone on the back and saying good luck just as they are about to walk unknowingly off a cliff. The guy was being naive and arrogant offering the opportunity for someone to be their own boss when he was not prepared to be his own boss or share that persons risk.

In terms of @bobbytables comment about GIBO, I wouldn't say it's a last resort more a soft launch. At the very least one can take a free .ie for a year and save a few quid. In my businesses we always soft launch projects before we start splashing big money on custom development, I'm not saying GIBO is for everyone but for those who have no presence and are unsure of how to start it's a worthwhile endeavor to get people from being Idea-men (women) to actually taking action.

DubTony

@YouBuyLocal

Personally I wasn't commenting exclusively on the OP, I was commenting on the general attitude of the "share-offerers". I think my advice to go and get the money and then hire people to do the work is still the best for everyone.

As for being rude on the internet? I wouldn't call it being rude. I call it being straight. And believe me I can be just as straight if you're standing in front of me.

Tomorrow I've a meeting with an advisor who has graciously given me a couple of hours of his time (for free). The thing is, I know that if he sees merit in my idea, he'll be all over it like a rash, helping me to get backing, helping me to ensure I've got the best developers etc. That'll be the bit he won't do for nothing. The WORK.

bobbytables

@YouBuyLocal the majority of my comments were in relation to a popular calibre of new age entrepreneur that engages in a tech start-up with no tech background or foresight and underestimates the technical hurdles that exist. You are right though, that nobody should "run down" anyone else in relation to their dreams or ambitions, and if anyone is to succeed they must push on. I encourage every entrepreneur to push on, as it's in the best interest of our economy. So my comments again were not made purely with the OP in mind, but in relation to a pattern that not only exists out there in the business world, but also right here on boards.ie. I wouldn't have formed such a strong and comprehensive opinion on this matter without extensive analysis over the years, nevermind taking the time out of my day to air it; if it was based purely based on the OPs individual case. I assure you I don't confidently arrive at conclusions that quickly.

However I have to add "pushing on" in my experience doesn't mean denying advice from an experienced professional in an area that I know little about, but that is relevant to my future endeavors, just because it's not what I want to hear. Maybe I'm different, but I don't think I am. Like most people I know lots about some things and little about others, so there's plenty of people in the world that I could benefit from talking to. Web-based technologies, software development and their application in business is something I know a fair bit about. If you have a medical illness I promise you, I'm not your guy.

Actually imagine I found a low cost drug that I understood to be the best solution to a medical problem I had and I took it without consulting with a medical professional. That wouldn't be considered smart by many people I would expect. So lets say instead I asked my GP and they told me that it's probably going to do more harm than good. What should I do?. It's cheap, my own gut instinct tells me it's the right choice, but I have this experienced medical professional here beside me telling me that my path to success is harder than I thought it would be, essentially what I don't want to hear. Are they running me down?, or are they simply telling me the truth because they understand at a much deeper level the risks associated with human-drug interactions in specific cases.

So let me be clear, my comments are offered with the best intentions and not to simply put people down. Intentionally telling people what they want to hear will more than often result in them spending time and money in a area that is counter productive to where they want to go. In fact that is exactly what cowboys do in order to make a quick few euro.

@Ronan You're right in some cases a "soft launch" is a good idea to test the water. It depends on your line of business. However there is no such thing as a one size fits all when it comes to websites, and I question the marketing of GIBO in that regard considering their implied target market is "businesses like yours", which is essentially anyone in business. At a time when money is tight "Free" screams loudly and overshadows the limitations. As I said before:

It doesn't matter if what you got was for free, €1,000 or €10,000, everything has respective features, benefits, limitations & restrictions. It's your job ultimately to ensure what you pay for best suits your business, considering all of the above. This can be said for any product or service, web related or other.

I believe the way that GIBO is being pushed, branded with Google & CEBs it could give the impression that nothing else needs to be considered. Again put this in the lap of a person with a limited tech background a it's appears ideal. Maybe it is in some cases, for "soft launches" as you say, but I'd question how many people would try and squeeze themselves in to that box in order get something for nothing, fooling themselves in to thinking they are making the best move for them right now.

I take a different approach, by not assuming I know the exact solution to a problem I think they every individual has in advance of talking to them. That's like saying I have the answer without first hearing the question.