VRT, the madness continues!

jmc19

Just after coming across this via a link here on the boards, I have to say I find it absolutely ridiculous what the VRT/Revenue are it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2011/0427/1224295540050.html

The Irish Times - Wednesday, April 27, 2011

How much VRT on an imported shell?


From DS: I rang Monaghan’s VRT office back in September 2010 to find out how to go about registering a 1992 Ford Escort Cosworth shell as it was from the UK. At the time they gave me a VRT figure of €5,900 but said it may be less as they were valuing the VRT on a complete, running 1992 RS Cosworth. I was happy with that and was told I could continue with the rebuild and this would all be worked out when the car was completed.

I was later told by another VRT office that what I was told in September 2010 was wrong – I would have to go an NCT centre for them to assess it and calculate the VRT price.

But the NCT centre can’t work out the VRT for it as they say it is not a fully complete, running car. After a lot of calls to various departments, I then get told that because the “car”, is in the country more than seven days I would be fined as I’m breaking the law.

Finally, someone in Revenue told me that it has to be fully rebuilt for it to be VRT’d at an NCT centre, as they will only VRT it when it is a fully complete, running car. I explain the whole shell saga to him to be told that the last good condition Cosworth he looked at for VRT he valued at €25,000 giving a VRT rate of €9,000. I’m then told that as mine is being rebuilt to such a high standard and will be better than its original intended build form, and that it is a one-off, it will be valued at the highest rate as a concourse car of €40,000-plus, meaning the VRT on it would be anything from €15,000.

Do you have any idea if the information I’ve received so far is correct?

We contacted Revenue on your behalf and they came back to us first with an apology for you, which we believe you’ve received for the confusion, but also with the following information.

“To be registered, a vehicle must satisfy the definition of ‘mechanically propelled vehicle’. One of the prerequisites of that definition is that it is capable of achieving vehicle propulsion at the time of registration to the satisfaction of the Revenue Commissioners’. Therefore, the Cosworth shell was not a “mechanically-propelled vehicle” and couldn’t be registered, and the NCTS would, correctly, refuse to register it.

“We no longer provide a speculative valuation service to those intending to register vehicle, ie, someone can’t value a vehicle accurately based on a phone call or cursory information relating to the vehicle.

“Instead, where we do not have a valuation on our website, we have published on our website the methodology used by Revenue. Additionally, in order to help an individual who may have an esoteric vehicle for registration, we have provided a form to guide them in the self-estimate.

“The main things that determine the valuation of a vehicle are: its open market selling price (OMSP), and that depends very much on the characteristics of the vehicle, make, model, version and variant and what it might fetch on sale in the State; the level of CO2 emissions; its condition, and in this, a badly-restored vehicle, it will have a lower OMSP than a well-restored one and will have a lower VRT charge; and finally its mileage.

“The engine size does not impact on the VRT charge unless it has lower emissions (and we determine the VRT on the emissions at the time of manufacture, not the later modification of the vehicle) and it is likely, in this particular case – unless we have satisfactory documentary evidence of the CO2 of the vehicle at manufacture – it will be charged at 36 per cent of the OMSP.

“When the vehicle is completed or when it satisfies the definition of a ‘mechanically-propelled vehicle’ and is presented for registration, Revenue valuation officers will have to determine the value.

“Because of this, the vehicle won’t be registered on the first visit and it will necessitate a second visit to the NCTS to pay the VRT charge that will be determined after the vehicle has been valued by Revenue’s valuation officers. Your reader will then be able to complete the registration of the vehicle.”

Is VRT not illegal ?

Secondly, with the VRT rate in the said article, you have to wonder how the country is broke and where money like this is going?

sid131

My god!!!!:mad:
thats why there are tax books for sale;)
thats pure madness:eek:

wildefalcon

So, they tax the guy on all his hard work, then take his pension fund, and give all the money to the banks?

Why are we still living in this country?

Atomic Pineapple

sid131 wrote: »

My god!!!!:mad:
thats why there are tax books for sale;)
thats pure madness:eek:

Please dont suggest anything illegal on Boards.ie.

That's my brother the article was done on, a joke is what it is, you have to wonder how the country is broke with stunts like this :rolleyes:

Here is the response my brother got and his reaction;

can be view here: http://bbs.rsownersclub.co.uk/showthread.php?t=338914

And here is what I have been told from the head of Revenue:


Speaking myself to the Head of VRT here in Ireland a few weeks back, firstly he apologise for the whole mess and the near months worth of calls to and from every department imaginable, still waiting on the written letter of apology, won't be seeing that me thinks

He went on to tell me that above mentioned information with regards to bringing in a shell was incorrect and that the bringing in of a shell was stopped in 1993. In 1993 a new VRT rule was brought in were all cars now to have VRT paid on them have to be mechanically propelled, meaning you cannot VRT just a shell or a full build car that is not mechanically propelled.

With regards to VRT OMSP (open market selling price) valuations, he gave me two current valuations for a Ford Escort Cosworth, one at £22,000 sterling and the other at £27,000 sterling. So based on them figures you’re looking at a VRT rate of €9000 - €11,000 but when my car is complete I could be looking at paying up to €15,000+.
As you can imagine I asked why he was using “UK sterling” values as VRT rates can only be worked out using the Irish OMSP, not only this but going by the two mentioned figures Revenue are currently using they must be looking for dearest cars they can find.

With regards to the highest rate of VRT I could be looking at €15,000+ as my car would fall under the category of a concourse car of €40,000plus. Now where this has come from I don't know, just have to look at two cars for sale here in Ireland that condition wise I would class at the high end of the scale:

€18,000 - http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/1982106

€17,995 - http://www.buyacar.ie/car-200

Also the reason for the high value I was given for mine is that, and this coming from the guy in Revenue that values these types of car, and I quote; "cars are the new investment scheme here in Ireland, that's the reason for the high valuation".

Now I rang a few Ford dealerships here looking the for OMSP and the valuations I have gotten from them is that you can buy a very good condition to concours standard Cosworth for €10,000 - €18,000. When I told them what sort of nonsense I've been told you can image the response I got.

So there you have it guys, I was more than happy to originally pay €5,900 on the shell only to be told it now couldn't be done. Now the "nice" people in Revenue want me to pay anything from €10,000 - €15,000+ VRT on a car that's being built here in Ireland using parts sourced here, be they new parts that I have already paid tax on or second hand parts that cannot have tax applied to them, even though I might be able to appeal the VRT rate with the Revenue, if I win the appeal I would only get back 10% - 20% of the VRT rate. Absolute joke if you ask me and it's clear the figures I'm getting back from VRT are been "pulled out of the air".

Don't get me wrong, I'm more than willing to pay VRT, I'm not looking for a way out of it but I'm sure as hell not going to pay an extortionate rate of €10,000 - €15,000+, sure I can buy a excellent condition fully running Cosworth for that!

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

Please dont suggest anything illegal on Boards.ie.

If you ask me VRT here is illegal and just looking at what is happening to my brother it's clear to see that the VRT system is just a money making racket.

Mr. Presentable

hellboy99 wrote: »

If you ask me VRT here is illegal and just looking at what is happening to my brother it's clear to see that the VRT system is just a money making racket.

Yeah, but it's not, so good thing you're not being asked!

Mr. Presentable

Mr. Presentable wrote: »

Yeah, but it's not, so good thing you're not being asked!

Can you prove that VRT is legal then?

cossiedevil22b

Hey this would be me that got this VRT rate and would have to say after spending over 3 weeks solid on the phone to revenue and get buck passed from one office to another to hit a brick wall every time and also i have to say if in my work i did this to a customer i would be fired.Also the fact aswell that all the above people i was talking to could have helped me but did not as i was told already by someone who works in the public sector that this always happens as they do the best not to help you. And i did get a phone call from Kieran Dillon head of revenue to get a sort of apology but only after the irish times where in contact with them.

Also just to quote Mr. Presentable

VRT is illegal in a way, how can the European Union impose a fine to the state every year for charging VRT. It works out that the fine imposed is less than what the government takes in on VRT for the first month of the year.

Atomic Pineapple

Next person to suggest VRT being illegal will be getting a ban and this thread will be closed, its been done to death on the motors forum and another thread is not going to lead anywhere.

cossiedevil22b

draffodx wrote: »

Next person to suggest VRT being illegal will be getting a ban and this thread will be closed, its been done to death on the motors forum and another thread is not going to lead anywhere.

Sorry draffodx didn't realise there was an infringement of freedom of speech here on the board,aplogies again.

Atomic Pineapple

cossiedevil22b wrote: »

Sorry draffodx didn't realise there was an infringement of freedom of speech here on the board,aplogies again.

There isn't, do a search on VRT and you'll get all the opinions you want, there's no need to regurgitate them here again.

You'll also find tons of information on VRT itself and it legalities and legal implications. VRT is not illegal and several other countries in the EU have similiar set ups.

Feel free to discuss your situation but there is no point in discussing the legality of VRT, it wont change anything and all the info you could ever need is already posted on Boards.

cossiedevil22b

Im not going to get involved with this as i have never been in trouble on any site in the fifteen years of using the web and im not starting either.But on dealing with revenue and the irish times my issue if you read it is not with trying not to pay vrt but to pay a realistic figure as i was willing to pay €5900 for the car as is but this was turned down for nearly €6000 to be turned down on a nearly 20 year old car is amazing and then also to find out that most escort cosworth here never even paid as much as that figure.i would like the mods to delete me please from the site.

Atomic Pineapple

cossiedevil22b wrote: »

Im not going to get involved with this as i have never been in trouble on any site in the fifteen years of using the web and im not starting either.But on dealing with revenue and the irish times my issue if you read it is not with trying not to pay vrt but to pay a realistic figure as i was willing to pay €5900 for the car as is but this was turned down for nearly €6000 to be turned down on a nearly 20 year old car is amazing and then also to find out that most escort cosworth here never even paid as much as that figure.i would like the mods to delete me please from the site.

I agree with you, the service seems to have gone even further down the drain since it was handed over to the NCT centres to value the cars. And the issue of the lack of a quality service certainly deserves to be raised.

jmc19

cossiedevil22b wrote: »

Sorry draffodx didn't realise there was an infringement of freedom of speech here on the board,aplogies again.

draffodx wrote: »

There isn't.

Feel free to discuss your situation but there is no point in discussing the legality of VRT, it wont change anything

Sounds to me like an infringement.

Thats whats wrong with this country, corrupt people with a bit of power robbing the public, hiding the truth and shutting up members of the public.

Good on you Cossie I say, we need more people like you, people that will no longer tolerate the current joke which is Ireland and who take it upon themselves to highlight the injustices that go on here and will go on for years to come if we do not collectively take a stand! Best of luck to you Cossie

Boskowski

Well my stance would be - and sorry for my ignorance - if it's not a mechanically propelled vehicle I won't be paying any VRT. End of problem solved.

Atomic Pineapple

jmc19 wrote: »

Sounds to me like an infringement.

It isn't. If it was all the info thats already here would be deleted.

Now please no more de-railing of the thread or it will be closed.

jmc19

draffodx wrote: »

I agree with you, the service seems to have gone even further down the drain since it was handed over to the NCT centres to value the cars.

It's not the NCT that are valuing the cars, it's the Revenue.

galwaytt

Cossie - I feel your pain. I had an issue many years ago with an Audi Coupe Quattro I had in storage for 10 years here, and the non-payment of road tax.

Long story short, someone else in the same predicatment - a Triumph Herald in Dublin, no less - took the Dept to court, and won, and on foot of that I got my car registered and taxed with zero arrears.

No help to you, but I'm only using it to illustrate the fact that sometimes, sometimes, change can be effected. But it takes a big effort to do it, and bravery - there's no guarantee you'll win. I spent 2+ years in my battle, and 100's of letters, but it was bloody hard work.

I swore I'd never get involved in anything like it again, but atmo, I have to say, I'm contemplating doing something like it again, over Motor Tax.

Right now, you are back worse than where you started, so I don't know what your options are. Realistically, it looks like do the project, and export it. Maybe by the time you have it ready, a newer angle may present itself. Otherwise, the time/energy your project will require will disappear in dealing with faceless people in Department's.

Can I offer the following advice generally as well, on dealing with Dept's: first, always, always - get the name of the person you're dealing with, right at the start. If they mutter it (and some do), make them repeat it. If they give you their christian name, - ask for their surname. And write it, the date, and the time of the call down. All dept's function on record keeping.......by starting out as above you're putting them on notice that it's going on record, and in the worst case, you'll have a credible record for future reference. I cannot stress that process enough. And if you get a good helpful person - thank them. They will impart info to you more easily.

We are getting to the point, fellow petrolheads, where we're going to have to get off our asses and DO something.

Otherwise, if they feel free to put their hand in your pension, then pleading over old cars/etc is fruitless.

I've done a bit of work in helping with this for my brother when he was at work and the amount of buck passing and people not knowing what their job is or the policies in place is unreal.

In one day of phone calls on his behalf, in just under 4 hours I got absolutely nowhere. Here is the outlay of them 4 hours:

- Started off with his local VRT office.
- Then onto the tax office.
- Back onto the VRT office.
- Then told to ring the NCT office in Dublin, nothing to do with them.
- Ring back the VRT office.
- Told to ring Rosslare.
- Back to the local VRT office.
- Then back onto Rosslare and spoke to another unhelpful person.
- Told to ring NCT, so ring them back.

At this stage I'm fed up completely with this so I rang the Europa EU help desk to find out who exactly is responsible for dealing with this. Outlined the numerous calls already made that day to them, person I spoke to there couldn't believe what was going on so suggested I ring the Ombudsman here so I did that:

- Rang the Ombudsman, nothing to do with them and they couldn't help, told to ring Revenue in Rosslare.
- Ring Rosslare to be told to ring the NCT, told them that the NCT had nothing to do with it so they told me to get back onto his local VRT office.
- So I do that, back to square one again, nothing to do with them that it is Rosslare I need to speak to.
- Back onto Rosslare only to be told to ring Dublin Chamber of Commerce.
- So I ring them not that it has anything to do with them and got speaking to a lovely lady there who wanted to know why I was told to ring them. I explained to her the situation, she couldn't believe it and was so shocked that she went out of her way to try and help by getting contact numbers of places that might be able to help.

So there you have it, the people employed to do the job that is needed when it comes to VRT/Revenue, the very ones that moan if their wages or pension are to be cut, not one had a clue or were bothered to help, and the most helpful person of the day was a very helpful women who's job role had nothing to do with the matter at hand.

Apologies for this as it's sort of a bit of track, but what is the deal VRT wise on a kit car build does anyone know?

Atomic Pineapple

hellboy99 wrote: »

Apologies for this as it's sort of a bit of track, but what is the deal VRT wise on a kit car build does anyone know?

Some of the lads over on http://www.octane.ie might be able to answer that question, I think a few of them have kit cars.

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

Some of the lads over on http://www.octane.ie might be able to answer that question, I think a few of them have kit cars.

Thanks for that Draffodx, just looking over there and came across this:

Firstly they dream up an OMSP for the car i.e a Murtaya (subaru WRX based kit) costs £23,000 fully built by the factory in England so they'd give that a ridiculous Irish OSMP value of say 40,000 euro new.

Then they charge you VRT based on the CO2 emissions of the engine used. Therefore if you were using a 1998 WRX engine they'd want to charge you 36% of 40,000 euro. Which is roughly 14,000 euro!!! As per usual a total joke. A kit that would cost you £13,000 to buy in England and say £5,000 total to finish (i.e Donor Subaru and tools) would end up costing you £18,000 as an englishman but 33,000Euro as an Irish man.

Just asking this for a friend that was asking me this morning about kit cars, hearing lots of stories this last few weeks and getting questions now that this hit the paper. Anyway, he the rang Revenue himself about it today and has asked that I post this up for him as he's not registered here and he basically wants to add his own dealings with VRT/Revenue to this thread.

So he rang up today asking about how VRT on a kit car build would work. The VRT will be done when the car is built and presented to his NCT centre, a VRT rate will be calculated on the engine CO2 emission and then on the valuation of the car. This is were it all gets a bit strange, he asked about how the valuation would be done as he believes it would be the first one in Ireland so what OMSP do you base it on, person he spoke was not sure, all he got back was that there is a "specialist" person that VRT/Revenue contract in to do this.
So as you do he asked to speak to this person only to be told that he does not deal or talk to members of the public nor would he give a rough valuation or a rough idea on what VRT he could be looking at paying, WTF

So there you have it in a nutshell :mad: So we have a "so called" system in place, be it online, over the phone or visit your local VRT office to obtain the information you need, the information that is suppose to be provided by the pubilc/state sector body put in place to members of the public that our taxes pay for, only to be told "we are not going to give you the information you seek or let you speak to the person that deals with this".

There's another wastage of our taxes if you ask me, no point having VRT/Revenue offices if no one wants to help or deal with a member of the public :mad:

jmc19

@ hellboy - that's unreal, whats the point of having Revenue and people working there if they do not want to help :mad:

@ cossie - regards to the VRT price and revenue OMSP values;

There was an article done in the Sunday Business Post back in 2009, now before the mod jumps in and says it's too old, not relevant, done to death etc.... please just take a second to read it and it is relevant to this thread.

Sunday Business Post, June 14, 2009

By Kieron Wood

The European Commission has begun proceedings against Ireland for infringing EU law by charging vehicle registration tax (VRT)o n vehicles imported from other EU member states.

The Revenue Commissioners charge VRT based on a notional ‘‘open market selling price’’ of imported vehicles, rather than the actual purchase price.

The open market price would typically be higher than the purchase price, resulting in higher VRT for the purchaser. VRT is charged at rates of up to 36 per cent, depending on a vehicle’s emissions.

Second-hand car dealers have long been critical of the method of calculating the VRT rate. In 1998, Niall O’Dowling of Used Car Importers of Ireland (UCII) brought High Court proceedings against the ‘‘secretive and arbitrary’’ way the tax was imposed. He claimed there was unfair discrimination in favour of the importers of new vehicles.

O’Dowling said that the distributors of new vehicles decided their open market selling prices, on which VRT was based. But the Revenue Commissioners calculated the open market price on second-hand vehicles, based on 25 unpublished ‘‘depreciation scales’’.

The Revenue claimed the open market price was the price a car might reasonably be expected to sell for on the retail market, and said it administered the VRT system ‘‘objectively and impartially’’. In 2005, it was ordered to provide all the relevant documents to UCII. At a hearing in 2006,Miss Justice Mary Laffoy said: ‘‘Unfortunately, the enthusiasm for a speedy resolution of the matter, which obviously inspired that order, seems to have dissipated.”

O’Dowling said last week: ‘‘We received a letter of confirmation from the EU Commission last week. The proceedings go back to a complaint registered in 1999. I would expect that the investigations are now at an advanced stage, given the time span involved.”

A spokeswoman for the Directorate General for Taxation and Customs Union in the European Commission confirmed that the Commission had opened proceedings, but added: ‘‘No public information is available at the moment.”

Total net receipts for VRT rose from €820 million in 2003 to a high of €1.4 billion in 2007. This year, VRT receipts have collapsed, with provisional figures of €240 million for the five months to May 31 - equivalent to an annual drop of almost 60 per cent.

The bit I put in red Cossie, in your case I think it is safe to say that what they have stated and this is suppose to be the practice still to date is not what they are applying to your case. How they can ask you to pay VRT of up on €15k or more for a car that currently has an OMSP here of €10k - €18k is ridiculous.

To date the EU proceedings against Ireland's VRT system are still active, they may be going a bit slower due to the fact we owe them so much money and the IMF are now in, but these proceedings are ongoing all the same.

Not only this but there is Inishowen anti-VRT campaigner by the name of Ryan Stewart, he's on Facebook and has a VRT campaign thing set up there also.

http://www.inishowennews.com/011VRTprobe132.htm

In March of this year The EU Committee on Petitions confirmed that it would launch an investigation into the two specific issues regarding VRT. The fact that the EU Petitions Committee deems the cases admissible shows that it feels there are serious flaws here regarding VRT, and this on top of the other proceedings just goes to show that the EU do indeed think there are serious problems with our VRT system.

Hopefully soon something will come of it and cases like yours coming to the EU's attention adding more fuel to this fire will hopefully speed proceedings along.

@ draffodx - please don't ban me for the following and if so please do not lock this thread, it's a valid point to make and will not have people viewing this thread or new comers to it having to search round for info on the legality of VRT.

When the European Commission begun proceedings on the VRT system here in 1998/1999, I believe it was either in 2001 or 2002 (not sure as I can't find the stuff I'm looking for now but will later), aspects of the VRT system here were ruled to be illegal and unfair.
Now our government at the time would not abolish VRT, so instead the EU imposed a set annual fine on Ireland for charging VRT as long as they continued to do so. Now Cossie is correct in saying that the reason why our government are quite happy to continue paying this "set fine" is due to the fact that the amount of the fine is so small compared to that of the revenue generated by VRT.

skyline33

It seems the VRT case is now ready for trial see Business post page 7 dated may 15th May 2011 .

Quote : High court proceedings challenging the VRT regime brought in 1995 by Niall O Dowling of Used Car Importers of Ireland have now been listed for hearing .

skyline33

skyline33 wrote: »

It seems the VRT case is now ready for trial see Business post page 7 dated may 15th May 2011 .

Quote : High court proceedings challenging the VRT regime brought in 1995 by Niall O Dowling of Used Car Importers of Ireland have now been listed for hearing .

Lets hope something comes of it.

Atomic Pineapple

hellboy99 wrote: »

Lets hope something comes of it.

Personally, I hope nothing comes of it, if VRT has to be abolished the government will have to bring in some other tax to make up the shortfall and you can guarantee it will be a lot worse than VRT. (And wont be open for legal challenges)

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

Personally, I hope nothing comes of it, if VRT has to be abolished the government will have to bring in some other tax to make up the shortfall and you can guarantee it will be a lot worse than VRT. (And wont be open for legal challenges)

The current VRT system does need to be looked at if you ask me, and I'm not just saying that because of recent events. And as for another tax coming in if they got rid of it, sure we have water rates, poll tax and god knows what else coming :rolleyes:

Atomic Pineapple

hellboy99 wrote: »

The current VRT system does need to be looked at if you ask me, and I'm not just saying that because of recent events. And as for another tax coming in if they got rid of it, sure we have water rates, poll tax and god knows what else coming :rolleyes:

None of which will cover the losses in VRT though and you have to take into account the second hand car market too if VRT is abolished, it will be in disarray with the value of cars plummeting, my car's value would probably be halved straight away.

If that happened how would the government deal with it? Would they have to compensate second hand car owners by returning a % value of the VRT for the cars current OMSP?

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

my car's value would probably be halved straight away.

If that happened how would the government deal with it? Would they have to compensate second hand car owners by returning a % value of the VRT for the cars current OMSP?

No, they wouldn't have to and that's just stupid to ask, that's like asking for the thousands back lost on the value of your home or looking for your pension fund back lost due to the state of the banks.

Atomic Pineapple

If its seen to be an illegal practice carried out by the government I'd imagine any outcomes from the trial would have to be retrospectively applied.

Anyway my point was more to do with the thousands of second hand cars sitting on dealers forecourts, they will have bought the cars at current prices which are inflated due to VRT, if VRT is abolished, the value of those cars will fall significantly as buying a new car will make more sense if there's no VRT.

This could make most dealers businesses un-viable in an industry already hit pretty hard by the recession.

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

If its seen to be an illegal practice carried out by the government I'd imagine any outcomes from the trial would have to be retrospectively applied.

Point taken and I agree with you on that. We just have to wait for the outcome, but no doubt the government wouldn't give you anything back.

draffodx wrote: »

Anyway my point was more to do with the thousands of second hand cars sitting on dealers forecourts, they will have bought the cars at current prices which are inflated due to VRT, if VRT is abolished, the value of those cars will fall significantly as buying a new car will make more sense if there's no VRT.

This could make most dealers businesses un-viable in an industry already hit pretty hard by the recession.

Again I hear what your saying but the likely hood of anyone getting anything back I would imagine would be zero. It would be something were you would have to battle it out in the courts and we all know what happens there. Sure you only have to look at how long the current proceedings with aspects of the VRT system have been going on for.

-Chris-

jmc19 wrote: »

Not only this but there is Inishowen anti-VRT campaigner by the name of Ryan Stewart, he's on Facebook and has a VRT campaign thing set up there also.

The amazing thing is that Ryan Stewart has an accounts on boards and has detailed all his opinions here.

It's all in the VRT thread that draffodx is trying to redirect you to.

But fair play for reposting the information here so we can discuss it all over again...

stephendevlin

Were does this money go?? What exactly does it get used on??

Why cant they just put VRT & Car tax onto the price of petrol/diesel

(I understand that petrol stations on the border would have issues)

I sincerly hope that revenue have shot themselves in the foot and made it so difficult for people to VRT a car that people just wouldnt be bothered.

stephendevlin

hellboy99 wrote: »

but no doubt the government wouldn't give you anything back.
.

So if money was taken from you illegaly you wouldnt get it back even if the courts decided that what they were doing was indeed illegal..

stephendevlin

stephendevlin wrote: »

So if money was taken from you illegaly you wouldnt get it back even if the courts decided that what they were doing was indeed illegal..

You should get it back but I have no faith in our government making it easy to do so.

cossiedevil22b

Ok guys going to give my opinion on what i would like to see happen and also what i would see as fair and would make some sense as i would have already put this across to keiran dillon.

1.The way the value is set is wrong as being a mechanic i find this a laugh the more unfit for the road ie poor standard you get the cheap rate of vrt,And the more mechanically safe and good condition you pay a higher rate of vrt to me this makes the nct practice look like a joke in the eyes of revenue and also road safety that we hear so much about.

2.The way that revenue expect everyone to use there website for help when sometimes your answer is not there and they will not help you when you ring and explain this.Ie my cosworth is not on the system so how do i get a vrt price as the self estimate system did not work for my car.Also to why are they on to these type of cars as sti impreza have been pulled off the site calculator aswell.My point here as many are not in this position these car have a omsp so why are they not listed,And how can so many of us get different rates for the same car ie €2750 and €7000 to my €14400 there is something big wrong there people can go on and say to me look you have to pay but as i would say,would you like to pay nearly €12000 euro more than someone who payed €2750 for the same car.

3.The emmission rate that vrt is worked out on i can sort of agree with but there should be a set top end price for example no more than lets say €5000.

4.Also the way the appeal system works to what keiran dillon explained to me on my car You have to pay this first then appeal it on the figure of my €14400 if i win my appeal the most he said i would get back is about 20% so €2880 this still leaves them with €11520 but you may not win this.

Also people can tell me different things about you will get more back or they cant charge you that sort of vrt.just to go back to the piece in the paper they never said that the value set to me was wrong or that i would not get charged that amount and as speaking to many in revenue i have yet to be told that the price set by the classic and rarity section of vrt is wrong as the officer there argued with me over book value on this car he said there is none this is why they can give you any price they want as long as they can find the dearest priced one here.ie one in cork for sale at €50,000 at the time madness.

Also thanks jmc19

Article in Sunday's Business Post:

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/vrt-receipts-for-imported-vehicles-down-75-since-2007-56305.html

VRT receipts for imported vehicles down 75% since 2007

15 May 2011 By Kieron Wood

Vehicle registration tax (VRT) receipts for imported vehicles last year were down by 75 per cent on 2007, according to new figures from Revenue.

In 2010, €384 million was collected in VRT receipts, compared to €1.4 billion in 2007.

Receipts fell slightly in 2008 to €1.12 billion, but the figure collapsed to €375 million in 2009. This year, the Revenue had taken in €147 million by the end of the first quarter.

VRT is based on a notional ‘‘open market selling price’’ (OMSP) of imported vehicles, based on factors such as age, mileage and vehicle condition, rather than the actual purchase price.

The OMSP is typically higher than the purchase price, resulting in higher VRT for the importer. VRT is charged at rates of up to 36 per cent of the OMSP, depending on a vehicle’s emissions.

The European Commission began proceedings against Ireland in 2009 for infringing EU law by charging VRT on vehicles imported from other EU member states. The commission questions whether the tax breaches the principle of the free movement of goods within the EU.

A spokeswoman for Revenue said: ‘‘The proceedings are ongoing. There have been a number of exchanges of documentation and information between the Commission and the Irish authorities in the intervening period."

Last January, the Revenue issued a ‘‘request for information relating to the valuation of used vehicles’’ on the government’s eTenders website.

It said: ‘‘The valuation of used vehicles brought into the state should not be so low as to disadvantage the normal sale of similar or equivalent used vehicles already registered in the state.

Equally, the valuation should not be so high as to ‘protect’ Irish vehicles against their equivalent imports.

‘‘At present, this valuation process is manual and resource intensive.

The Revenue now requires a new efficient, automated valuation system that, while retaining the advantages of the current system, can provide an accurate valuation of vehicles in a more efficient way."

High Court proceedings challenging the VRT regime brought in 1995 by Niall O’Dowling of Used Car Importers of Ireland have now been listed for hearing.

O’Dowling is challenging the ‘‘secretive and arbitrary’’ way the tax is imposed, and claims there is unfair discrimination in favour of importers of new vehicles.

Just a quick update on my brothers situation and things have now got worse.

He received a letter from Revenue on Monday and not one of his questions were answered. On receipt of the letter he has since been back on the phone to Revenue numerous times again now looking for answers.

He has now been told by all the members he spoke to in Revenue since Monday that they will not give him a VRT rate nor will they give him the OMSP of the car. They also will not let him speak to the person that deals with these types of car as “he does not deal with members of the public”, and now he's been told that "there has never been a Ford Escort Cosworth car brought in for VRT into Ireland and that his is a first", this is an absolute pack of lies from them.

He was also speaking to someone within Revenue yesterday that told him, firstly that the letter from Revenue was a more than adequate answer to all his questions and that secondly he should not have contacted the Minister for Transport office and should have contacted the Minister for Finance office (which he did on the 12/05/2011 and to date he has not received a reply), and also that anything the European Commission has told him does not apply to Ireland and they have no say what so ever with the way Revenue run here in Ireland.

The whole experience thus far for him has been a nightmare. The “so called” system that is there for the general public to use for the calculation of VRT, i.e. an online system to obtain a VRT amount, which in his case he cannot use as his car is not listed on it, and now when he rings Revenue to get the information he wants he's now told they will not give it to him, and the abrupt manner in which he has been spoken to by certain members is unreal.

barone

shocking, country needs a revolution,and soon

JimmyCrackCorn

OK here are your rational options.


Contact the Ombudsman
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/MakeaComplaint/#can

Contact the office Minister for transport and the office of Minister for Finance also stating your case

Contact the press if you want to up the anty.

At the start of each call notify them that the call is being recorded and record it.


You now have no option but to kick ass and best of luck.

galwaytt

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

OK here are your rational options.


Contact the Ombudsman
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/MakeaComplaint/#can

Contact the office Minister for transport and the office of Minister for Finance also stating your case

Contact the press if you want to up the anty.

At the start of each call notify them that the call is being recorded and record it.


You now have no option but to kick ass and best of luck.

Amen, +1 on all of the above.

galwaytt

cossiedevil22b wrote: »

Ie my cosworth is not on the system so how do i get a vrt price as the self estimate system did not work for my car.

hellboy99 wrote: »

He has now been told by all the members he spoke to in Revenue since Monday that they will not give him a VRT rate nor will they give him the OMSP of the car. They also will not let him speak to the person that deals with these types of car as “he does not deal with members of the public”, and now he's been told that "there has never been a Ford Escort Cosworth car brought in for VRT into Ireland and that his is a first", this is an absolute pack of lies from them.

OK, starting a crusade is all very well -btdt - but I'd try another parallel tack, as well.

First, find someone, anyone, withe the same car you have, and get the statistical code from them, for the model - it's on the VLC.

Then, go, or get someone else to, get a quote from a different Revenue office to import that car, and get it in writing (nicey, nicey...).

Once you have that, you have a better perspective on your crusade. There's nothing like having good research.......

JimmyCrackCorn

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

OK here are your rational options.


Contact the
http://www.ombudsman.gov.ie/en/MakeaComplaint/#can

Contact the office Minister for transport and the office of Minister for Finance also stating your case

Contact the press if you want to up the anty.

Have done all of the above.


Ombudsman has come back saying they can do nothing for him.
Minister for Transport just forwarded the whole thing onto Revenue and have since contacted his office again after the letter my brother received.
Still waiting to hear from the Minister for Finance.
It was already printed in the Irish Times and he is now currently waiting on word back now from another media outlet.
And his case made be heard in the European court for petitions next week.

galwaytt wrote: »

First, find someone, anyone, withe the same car you have, and get the statistical code from them, for the model - it's on the VLC.

He has a few examples and the paperwork.

Honestly though the Revenue seem to be a law of their own :mad:

Just have to wait and see over the coming weeks what happens. Thanks again for all the tips guys

JimmyCrackCorn

[RANT]

Its just a crazy scenario where a bunch of people fail to stand up and do what is obviously right and hide behind bureaucracy.

The keep your head down and don't make waves in the civil service has got to stop and whoever is failing to handle your brothers case should be ashamed of themselves for having the nerve to collect a pay check while treating the public in nothing short of a disgraceful manner.

[END RANT]

If you continue to make enough waves it will be resolved.

Can you get a valuation on the car done privately as it stands?

I hope the issue gets resolved quickly and i don't know what kind of ground you stand on bringing a case in Europe as VRT even with its special permission is unconstitutional (European constitution).

Best of luck

JimmyCrackCorn

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

If you continue to make enough waves it will be resolved.

Can you get a valuation on the car done privately as it stands?

I hope the issue gets resolved quickly and i don't know what kind of ground you stand on bringing a case in Europe as VRT even with its special permission is unconstitutional (European constitution).

Best of luck

Valuations I have got from Ford, and they correspond with ones been privately sold here on various sites at present. Depending on condition, very good to near showroom condition your looking round €10k - €18k. Revenue say they can't find any examples in Ireland :rolleyes: , and the guy that deals with classic and rarity cars in Revenue is putting a value of €40k + on my brothers car :eek:

On the Europe side of things, at present now it's a lot of mails back and forth and phone calls. They can't understand what is going on now and why the Revenue are being the way they are and not giving my brother the information he wants and is entitled to.

I received this reply this morning from the Minister for Finance:

The Minister for Finance, Mr Michael Noonan TD, has asked me to refer to your recent e-mail regarding VRT issues which is being forwarded to the Revenue Commissioners for attention.

Back to square one again now, no doubt it will be the same letter sent out again from Revenue with not one question answered.
It's long past the stage of dealing with Revenue now but everyone else you go to just keep passing it back to them or just don't want to help :mad:

Atomic Pineapple

€40k is the default value that is attached to a car if it was never sold in the Republic of Ireland, so it looks like the "guy in charge of classics" is just being lazy.

draffodx

draffodx wrote: »

€40k is the default value that is attached to a car if it was never sold in the Republic of Ireland, so it looks like the "guy in charge of classics" is just being lazy.

Nothing to do with laziness, money making scam and piss taking more like, and as for the car never sold in Ireland and none have never been brought in for VRT either is just a pack of lies.

YBTurbo

Would it worth starting a petition for this ?


I mean this is just one example of many, but like in the UK its a set price to clear a vehicle.

I thought the movement of goods between countries of the EU were tax free ?

Caliden

Might seem like a silly suggestion but would you ever consider contacting a radio station to help?
Shows like the Ray D'Arcy show are listened to by vast amounts of people and if you point out the unwillingness of Ministers and departments to help you, it could get the cogs turning

bryaner

My blood pressure has gone trough the roof after reading this thread..:mad: