Kegging??

Mashtun

Not really sure on the specifics of how this works. Does all the carbonation in kegged beer come from pressurized CO2 or is the batch primed and then forced out with gas be is CO2 or nitro?

Basically i was hoping to convert a commercial keg to be used at home and just wondered what i might have to do. Is the beer in a commercial keg carbonated prior to delivery to a pub?

BeerNut

Mashtun wrote: »

Does all the carbonation in kegged beer come from pressurized CO2 or is the batch primed and then forced out with gas be is CO2 or nitro?

You can do either. Force carbonation means the beer is ready immediately, but you're paying for the gas.

Mashtun wrote: »

Basically i was hoping to convert a commercial keg to be used at home and just wondered what i might have to do.

Forget it. How would you clean the keg, for instance? Couplings are also very hard to come by. Home brewers who keg use cornies -- the top comes right off them for cleaning. Here's a guide to cornies.

Mashtun wrote: »

Is the beer in a commercial keg carbonated prior to delivery to a pub?

Yes.

Mashtun

I must read up on how these cornies work but maybe you can clear something up quickly for me in the mean time.

When a corny keg is filled with beer that has not been carbonated and is subsequently pressurized, is it carbonated instantly and ready for use or does it take time to dissolve?

Secondly, does the CO2 simply press down on the surface of the of the beer and force it back out through a submerged stem or does it work in some other way?

BeerNut wrote: »

Forget it.

mmm. Not goin to forget it just yet:p

BeerNut

Mashtun wrote: »

is it carbonated instantly and ready for use or does it take time to dissolve?

Someone who's actually done it might be able to tell you better, but as I understand it you have to roll and shake the keg with the gas pressure on and it's carbonated in minutes.

Mashtun wrote: »

Secondly, does the CO2 simply press down on the surface of the of the beer and force it back out through a submerged stem or does it work in some other way?

With force carbonation, the CO2 dissolves in the beer. When dispensing, it's just pressing down on the beer and forcing it out up a tube which runs the height of the keg.

Mashtun wrote: »

Not goin to forget it just yet:p

When you finally realise it's no good for dispense you can cut the top off it, add a tap, stick a gas burner under it and you have a keggle for boiling wort in.

Mashtun

BeerNut wrote: »

When you finally realise it's no good for dispense you can cut the top off it, add a tap, stick a gas burner under it and you have a keggle for boiling wort in.

Already have an electric one made. Just stuck an element in one side and a tap in the other I even stuck a few temperature probes in it with the intention of hooking it up to a PID controller but it's still on the to do list

BeerNut

Some info and pics you might find useful here.

Mashtun

BeerNut wrote: »

Some info and pics you might find useful here.

Just had a quick read over the thread, cheers for putting me onto it. Not familiar with the hardware so it's a bit hard to follow but everthing is a learning curve i guess.

sham69

Hi,
I got 2 kegs from my local pub for a christening I am having tomorrow.
I got a 2 keg cooler, some gas, the tapping heads and 2 taps.
I kegged up the guinness and its perfect.
The carlsberg was a different matter.
I had the wrong tapping hrad first of all.
Finally got the right one yesterday, rigged it up and nothing.
Tried everything to no avail.
I have a splitter on the gas that has an open and close valve on it.
I thought it was the keg as when I pressed in the o ring I got very little beer out.
Someone told me that sometimes they can be a bit tricky and can stick or might need to be forced down.
I did some messing around and got it working.
The only problem now is all I am getting is foam out of the keg?
How much gas do I put in to the keg (how much do I open the tap on the gas)
Do i leave the gas on when not in use?
I have drawn off about 10 pints and it shows no sign of clearing.
Any ideas?
Am desperate at this hour as i paid a lot for the 2 kegs so can't afford to buy cans or bottles for my lager drinking guests at the christening tomorrow.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Sham.

Mashtun

Do you have just one gas cylinder? A vague recollection form my days as a barman tells me that green gas bottles are pure CO2 and the black ones are a nitro mix for guinnes. If you're running a lager off a black cylinder this might explain ur issues!

sham69

I am only using one cylinder of gas ( which I think is nearly empty after yesterday)
Guinness worked out great and everyone enjoyed it
I gave up on the carlsberg in the end and got some cans for the lager drinkers
I think the keg was faulty to begin with as it started with nothing coming out so guy is going to replace it maybe with a guinness
Can I get the gas myself without having to ask a pub?
Strange that my mate who works for Guinness never said anything about the gas but I do remember something about different gas from my barman days swell
Thanks for the advice.

sham69

Just checked the cylinder
It's green, sure mix 25 nitrogen carbon dioxide?

sham69

right, a couple of things on this.
Since my last post the gas is now empty.
I got another keg (coors light) as a replacement for the carlsberg.
I am starting to think that it is something to do with my setup as the coors is now just dispensing foam aswell.
I assume this os due to lack of gas (Seeing as cylinder is empty)
Can someone tell me for sure if the gas needed for guinness is different than the one needed for lager i.e carlsberg and coors?
I still have the carlsberg and coors and would like to get them sorted if I could.
Any help greatly appreciated.

Also as asked previously , can I just buy the gas somehwere or would I need to go to a pub and ask the owner if I could buy one from him.
Cheers.

sham69

I can answer this myself now.
If anyone is interested it seems that guinness and stouts use suremix 25 and lagers use suremix 50.
I have contacted boc gases to see where I can buy a small cylinder.
Cheers.

Mashtun

Was thinking it was the type of gas alright. I dont think the regulators on those things let ya mess up the pressure

sham69

Cheers for the reply.
Never again, messy to say the least.
It will be cans and bottles from now on.
Utility room smells like a pub and the floor is so sticky that you can't walk across it without sticking to the floor.

Donny5

sham69 wrote: »

Cheers for the reply.
Never again, messy to say the least.
It will be cans and bottles from now on.
Utility room smells like a pub and the floor is so sticky that you can't walk across it without sticking to the floor.

Are you not now tempted to join to dark side and make your own?

oblivious

sham69 wrote: »

Cheers for the reply.
Never again, messy to say the least.
It will be cans and bottles from now on.
Utility room smells like a pub and the floor is so sticky that you can't walk across it without sticking to the floor.

Donny5 wrote: »

Are you not now tempted to join to dark side and make your own?

And home kegging is much easier to dispense from

sham69

Well I now have another problem.
I got in touch with an agent who sells the gas I need.
He said that the guinness gas should have been fine for the lager but that the lager gas (suremix 50) wouldnt work on the guinness so I am really confused as to why the 2 lager kegs are spitting out foam.
I will do a bit more investigating over the weekend.

As for homebrew, how good is it?
I am fond of british ale, like bishops finger, old speckled hen etc (not smithwicks though)
I wouldnt mind trying that I suppose.

BeerNut

sham69 wrote: »

As for homebrew, how good is it?

Exactly like home-cooked food, if you know what you're doing it's better than the stuff you buy pre-prepared.

sham69 wrote: »

I am fond of british ale, like bishops finger, old speckled hen etc.

Very easy to do. Any of the Woodforde's kits will take you in that direction.

Hamlet

sham69 wrote: »

Well I now have another problem.
I got in touch with an agent who sells the gas I need.
He said that the guinness gas should have been fine for the lager but that the lager gas (suremix 50) wouldnt work on the guinness so I am really confused as to why the 2 lager kegs are spitting out foam.
I will do a bit more investigating over the weekend.

is the tap a Guinness or other stout tap ? check the spout for a restricter, its a small silver disc with holes in it.

the gas for Stout should be fine for larger but not the other way round.

also I think the psi for larger is different, so if your using the same gas regulator you might have to tweak it for the larger. Guinness I think is 35psi cant remember what larger is.

Donny5

sham69 wrote: »

As for homebrew, how good is it?
I am fond of british ale, like bishops finger, old speckled hen etc (not smithwicks though)
I wouldnt mind trying that I suppose.

Like BeerNut says, it can great quality. I'm a big fan of Kentish ales, too, and you can get some very good quality booze from a €25 kit and an hours work.

sham69

Cheers , I might try the homebrew, sounds interesting

is the tap a Guinness or other stout tap ? check the spout for a restricter, its a small silver disc with holes in it.

the gas for Stout should be fine for larger but not the other way round.

also I think the psi for larger is different, so if your using the same gas regulator you might have to tweak it for the larger. Guinness I think is 35psi cant remember what larger is.

I will try to explain as best I can as I am new to all this (even though i was a barman for 3 years in my teens.)

I got 2 kegs, Guinness and Carlsberg.
I borrowed a 2 feed cooler , a cylinder of gas (suremix 25) and 2 taps.
A murphys tap (which had the restricter) and a heineken tap which didnt have the restricter.
The murphys tap sticks when releasing the tap back up after pouring so we put the restricter in the heineken tap and used this for the guinness.
It worked perfectly.
When I tried the carlsberg I had the wrong tapping head.
After a few days I got the right tapping head, tried it and nothing (we had to use a splitter to split the gas to the 2 lines)
Somebody told me that the 0 ring in the keg doesnt push down sometimes so I tried this.
I got the beer to release but when it came out of the tap (murphy's one) it was just foam.
I thought I may have to draw a few pints off for it to clear but after about 5 or 6 pints there was no sign of it clearing so I left it.

with me so far

Anyway a few days ago the gas was mentioned to me so I thought I had the wrong gas for the lager so I rang around about buying some.
I got a quote from a guy who resells the gas for 80 euro (10 delivery) and will come out and set it up.
in the meantime the gas for the guinness has gone (but judging by the weight of the keg and the amount I drank from it its nearly empty.
I got a half keg of coors aswell and that is pulling really high (foamy) the same as the carlsberg which leads me to think its my setup.
Problem I now have is I have no way of checking if the gas is right or not so if I buy the gas and its not the problem I am out of pocket again.

I can't see how to regulate the gas.
I will take a pic of the setup when I get home.
Any advice on this greatly appreciated as its starting to get on my nerves.
Cheers.

Hamlet

Hi Sham,

80 + 10 delivery is very rich for the gas. does the place you got the kegs from not use the sure mix 25 or 50 ? if they do and you have an empty B.O.C bottle ask them to change it for you, its worth a shot.

its a while since I had the setup in my house. I had two gas regulators on the go, one for the Guinness (s/m 25) and the other for larger (s/m 50) and normally I would of got about 10/12 kegs from the gas. at the start I had the Guinness gas mix too high and it was dynamite, 5 pints and you had to be carried out of my house lol. talked to a few of the beer line cleaning lads for Guinness and they said it should be set at 35psi and near enough the same for larger. once I changed it, the Guinness was fab.

the larger on the other hand is very tricky I found to get right. try slow the pour from the tap, this can be done if your tap has a valve around it that slows the beer coming through it. make sure you take the restrictor disc out of the spout when your using it for larger. its only designed for stout use and will make your larger foamy.

another thing is to make sure your lines are clean, as the build up in the lines will also cause a foamy larger.

sham69

Cheers for the reply hamlet.
Guinness worked perfectly as I got the setup from a guy who had guinness running in his home bar.
As for the lager it was a multitude of problems ranging from wrong tapping head and a splitter for the gas (as we only had one cylinder) to the tap sticking.
I took the restrictor from the lager tap and tried the slow pour and closing the valve etc , still the same.
Problem now is I can't try it as the gas is empty (that was being used for the guinness)
I might just take the plunge and buy the gas from the guy and mess around with the gas settings.
The only other problem I have is, when the gas was working it was split to the lager and was working fine for the guinness , should it have worked fine for the lager aswell?
As for the lines, they are almost brand new.
Cheers again.

Hamlet

sham69 wrote: »

Cheers for the reply hamlet.
Guinness worked perfectly as I got the setup from a guy who had guinness running in his home bar.
As for the lager it was a multitude of problems ranging from wrong tapping head and a splitter for the gas (as we only had one cylinder) to the tap sticking.
I took the restrictor from the lager tap and tried the slow pour and closing the valve etc , still the same.
Problem now is I can't try it as the gas is empty (that was being used for the guinness)
I might just take the plunge and buy the gas from the guy and mess around with the gas settings.
The only other problem I have is, when the gas was working it was split to the lager and was working fine for the guinness , should it have worked fine for the lager aswell?
As for the lines, they are almost brand new.
Cheers again.

Hi sham,

I would think the gas pressure is too high.

when I was setting my stuff up, I used a car tyre pressure gauge held tightly on to the gas hose going to the kegging tap and adjusted the regulator down to 35psi.(tyre pressure gauge was the only thing I could find easily, but it worked fine) I eventually got larger to pour ok. but its a trial and error and watching all that beer go to waste is a bit emotional :eek: lol

with the Guinness I found even if the gas was too high it still poured and tasted ok, but it blew the head of ya after a few pints.

if you do buy the gas, you should turn it off at the bottle when not using it. just in case you have any leaks in the gas line. what kind of gas regulator do you have.

as for the tap sticking, unscrew the tap be careful of the spring inside it and the rubber O rings. leave it soak in warm water with milton cleaning fluid. when putting it back together rub a little bit of vaseline inside the top part of the tap. this normally works a treat.

sham69

thanks again for the reply.
I will try the gas, its good that I know what to do now.
I only have a loan of the equipment so need to get the kegs drank as quick as I can.
I am thinking of buying my own cooler , gas and taps etc.
Its expensive enough though.
Cheers again.
i will post back once i get the gas.

Hamlet

No problem Sham, hope you get it sorted. yeah they can be expensive to setup and run but great fun for any party's.

one final thing is that once you tap a keg the lifespan drops fast.

Larger untapped is about 3 months, tapped only lasts max about 3wks.

Guinness untapped is about the same as larger, tapped is about 6 wks.

you will really notice the taste change in the larger as the days go by, if it lasts that long.

sham69

wow thanks Hamlet.
I never considered the life of the beer in the keg.
I assumed it would last for months...
Something to think about before i buy the equipment.
Cheers again.

slayerking

Can someone answer this question for me to satisfy my curiosity?!!!

What happens if you serve a stout (say Guinness), on nitro (75-25 gas mix or whatever is standard Guinness mix) but through a non stout tap without restrictor disc. Just through a standard lager tap?

Mashtun

Hamlet wrote: »

Larger untapped is about 3 months, tapped only lasts max about 3wks.

Guinness untapped is about the same as larger, tapped is about 6 wks.

Anybody know what causes this? When you bottle a beer it'll last for months on end!

Hamlet

slayerking wrote: »

Can someone answer this question for me to satisfy my curiosity?!!!

What happens if you serve a stout (say Guinness), on nitro (75-25 gas mix or whatever is standard Guinness mix) but through a non stout tap without restrictor disc. Just through a standard lager tap?

you just end up with a pint of head.

homebrew.ie

Mashtun wrote: »

Anybody know what causes this? When you bottle a beer it'll last for months on end!

With a bottle it is compleatly sealed nothing can get in or out but once its opened it won't last long. With a keg when you pour it you are letting air in so it is no longer sealed as well as it was.

Donny5

homebrew.ie wrote: »

With a bottle it is compleatly sealed nothing can get in or out but once its opened it won't last long. With a keg when you pour it you are letting air in so it is no longer sealed as well as it was.

With a commercial keg, though, you're just introducing CO2 and maybe nitrogen, not oxygen and certainly not air, so that doesn't fly.

homebrew.ie

The seal for the gas connection on a commercial keg once connected has a little chamber that will still have air in it and this little bit of air gets pushed in when you turn the gas on.

sham69

Still no update from me.
Local barman promised me a cylinder of gas or the end of a cylinder nearly 3 weeks ago, still waiting.
Seemingly they only order gas every few weeks.
The keg was tapped about 5 weeks ago so don't know how its gonna taste.
Its out the back garden.
Shame to waste a keg and a half.

rubadub

Donny5 wrote: »

With a commercial keg, though, you're just introducing CO2 and maybe nitrogen, not oxygen and certainly not air, so that doesn't fly.

I have heard commercial breweries will treat bottled/canned beers a lot more than kegged stuff (such as heat treating). I saw data on microbial activity in kegged Vs canned beers and there was more in the kegs. Heat treating and other chemical treatments etc would cost money and effect taste, kegs going in pubs are not usually going to last long so I presume this is why they give it less treatment.

What I am wondering is could you keg a stout, the force carb with nitrogen and bottle it adding a little more sugar to top up the gas, then if this is poured would it have a semi smooth nitro head.

Hamlet

sham69 wrote: »

Still no update from me.
Local barman promised me a cylinder of gas or the end of a cylinder nearly 3 weeks ago, still waiting.
Seemingly they only order gas every few weeks.
The keg was tapped about 5 weeks ago so don't know how its gonna taste.
Its out the back garden.
Shame to waste a keg and a half.

Hi Sham,

There is a few places around that hire the equipment out, Google home bar equipment and you will see who is near you.

one of them is in Navan, they have a German type name (not sure if i can post a link, but it starts with Wund) they sell a bottle that does 3 kegs for a €100 and €15 a refill.

the Guinness lads use to have these bottles in the van, they called them the party pack/bottle. there ones had a regulator on the top of the bottle, so you just connected the line to the kegging tap and away you go. so if you know any Guinness lads ask them for a loan.

another place in Smithfield rent equipment only for €80 but the charge for delivery as well, think its €20. it comes with gas and everything else ready to go.

this should help you to put a dent in your full keg but as for your other 5 wk old keg, well I think it might be gone to the dogs by now. but try it out before you bin it.

Hamlet

Donny5 wrote: »

With a commercial keg, though, you're just introducing CO2 and maybe nitrogen, not oxygen and certainly not air, so that doesn't fly.

I was told by a Guinness rep that once you tap the keg (add gas) you change the atmosphere in the keg and this is what starts the use by date. with larger I found it tasted fine the first wk, but you could really taste the difference by the second week. if you look at a keg it only has a born date not a use by date, but the rep said it is only good for 6 months untapped.

Donny5

Hamlet wrote: »

I was told by a Guinness rep that once you tap the keg (add gas) you change the atmosphere in the keg and this is what starts the use by date. with larger I found it tasted fine the first wk, but you could really taste the difference by the second week. if you look at a keg it only has a born date not a use by date, but the rep said it is only good for 6 months untapped.

Well, I'll take all of this experience over my theories. I just I knew why!

BeerNut

rubadub wrote: »

then if this is poured would it have a semi smooth nitro head.

You need high pressure mixing at the moment of serve to make the bubbles. On keg fonts there's a showerhead disc thingy in the tap to force the beer out at high pressure and mix the air in; with a widget the gas is released into the beer as it's poured; and at the basic level you have the sparkler for cask beer which again forces the beer through air at high pressure to make the bubbles. It'd be impossible to get the right sort of pressure from just pouring a bottle.

sham69

Finally got the gas and eveything is cool?
Strange that the guinness gas didnt do the carlsberg but I reckon there just wasnt enought gas left in the bottle.

I tapped it up last night and turned the gas on, you can really hear the gas going in so I left it on for about 2 minutes and then drew a pint off, it was lovely (but not as gassy as a pub?)
I am afraid to leave the gas on all the time as I don't know how to regulate it so am happy enough giving it a shot of gas every time I am going to use it.
Thanks all for the advice.
Cheers.

tetas

im in navan and i am looking for a cylinder of suremix 25 gas to pour guinness i have empty cylinder does anyone were i can get or buy one need it urgently

sham69

I think there is a guy in finglas who sells them or refills your old cylinder.
He also regulates it if you need him to.
I can try to get you the number if you like?
I think I might have to ring him myself, got a keg for good friday, waiting on a guinness tap from ebay and hoping it arrives tomorrow at the latest.
If not then I am going to have to try using a miller tap that I have, changing the tapping head to a u system and try to get a restrictor disc from somewhere.
Otherwise there is going to be a lot of pissed off people at my house on Friday and I have no money to buy cans now as all the money went into getting the guinness setup at the last minute.
Let me know if you need the number and I will PM it to you.
Sham.

sham69

PM sent tetas, just in case I am not online later and miss your reply.

sham69

hi,
in a bit of trouble again.
Got all my equipment setup and all seems fine.
Only problem is my Guinness was pulling really high on my first pint?
I have a regulator on my setup but I think it is set for lager?
Second pint I pulled I just gave the keg a shot of gas, pulled the pint and it was much better if a little too gassy.
I am not sure how to regulate it, i know it has to be 30 psi or thereabouts but how do I know what 30 is.
I have attached an image of the regulator (with gas off)
When gas is on it is closer to the second mark.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Sham.

sham69

got sorted.