Interesting.... Gardai "Section 8"ed my entire road and more...

DeVore

A very pleasant and courteous Garda came knocking a few days ago looking for by name, phone number and other details because apparently my place is on the secondary route for the big O when he comes here.

He showed me a Section 8 which is a Garda request for private details (we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... its effectively a disclosure order).

A lot of the data was about my car (I dont have one, I dont drive) and who else might be staying here.


Ok, I am not wild about giving out my data but then again, I understand their needs and apparently it will be destroyed by the end of June.

What I found weird was that such a wide ranging Section 8 was given. I mean, it covered the whole route in one document.



Bit odd to say the least. I'm sure I will get another visit when they discover this is me (in protest at Fianna Fail)



DeV.

Wolfe Tone

Are you sure that it will be destroyed? Did you get a copy of the document by any chance?

Brussels Sprout

DeVore wrote: »

occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account...

:eek:

sealgaire

"occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... "


Exactly how often do you do this?!?!?!?!??!

godtabh

sealgaire wrote: »

"occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... "


Exactly how often do you do this?!?!?!?!??!

He'll be getting one for that post!

What happens if you dont give them what they want?

mailforkev

It's happening all over the place at the moment.

Mrs Me had the Gardaí in her work a week or two ago taking everyones' name, car models and registration numbers.

All because they are out beside Baldonnel where QE2 is flying into.

spurious

DeVore wrote: »

He showed me a Section 8 which is a Garda request for private details (we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... its effectively a disclosure order).

Runs to open a brown trousers shop.

Nijmegen

I don't see what all the fuss is about, we've got two important visits and they're securing the routes... Wouldn't do for our image now if a foreign head of state were attacked on Irish soil because we forgot to check of there were any loonies with an unhealthy interest in airsoft looking for their five minutes living along the route.

blackdog2

sealgaire wrote: »

"occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... "


Exactly how often do you do this?!?!?!?!??!

I too would be intrigued to know the answer to this

Hmm, maybe this thread is a fishing expidition.... :eek:

DeVore

A Section 8 is a Judge-ordered instruction to release data. It would be contempt of court to refuse. If you dont comply, you go to jail.... in fact afaik its the only thing Liam Lawlor ever saw the inside of a jail for.

We comply with any Section 8's we get but they arent common. Most websites comply with any Garda request for information or legal threatening letter, while we make them go get a judges order so its not like we give up data easily.

The majority dont come from the Gardai at all, they come from libel cases where someone wants to prove someone elses identity.

S8's are rare though, they are hard to get because they require a sitting of a judge who will ask a lot of questions as to why its needed etc. They are a million times harder to get then a standard threatening legal letter (which we could paper the walls with and which we dont release info on receipt of).

We probably get 1-3 S8's a year.


But my point (and that of the thread) is that they managed to get one for an entire route.... its just a bit :eek: to me, so I thought I'd bring it up.

DeV.

blackdog2

Cheers Dev

how does it work for people who are abroad? Do you still have to comply?

AlekSmart

AHhh the good oul days DeVore....I remember the time when there used to be a grassy knoll behind where you're standing in that fine picture......now the neighbourhood around has gone to pot,with cheap flop-houses and mom`n pop convienience stores on every corner.....oul Mr Brennan would be flummoxed altogether !

DeVore

The order is given in this country to release data held by a company in this jurisdiction, by a judge here. It doesnt even matter where the servers are, let alone the person who's data it is.

I'm really surprised people are surprised by this. Even as a civil rights kinda guy I accept that someone somewhere has to be able to join the dots, and that person is a judge.

Most websites I know of would turn the data over for a 5-euro lawyers letter hahah.
(which we get tons of and which we respond to telling them to get a S8... 99% are never heard of again).

I dont subscribe to the idea that the Gardai are the enemy btw. There are some rotten eggs and our Garda Complaints process is a joke but most Gardai i've met were just trying to hold an impossible line tbh. We dont act belligerently with them but we still require S8's.

Does anyone here know if getting a S8 for a entire route is even possible? acceptible? Maybe I should have posted this in Legal Discussion hmmmm.

DeV.

DeVore

I dont follow? Fishing Expedition?

DeV.

Wolfe Tone

Post it in legal discussion would be your best bet I reckon. Documentation demanding info from so many people? That cant be right!


Sounds to me like you have been lied to. Check out this thread, seems a similar situation, no mention made of a section 8 there!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056246043

jmayo

DeVore wrote: »

A very pleasant and courteous Garda came knocking a few days ago looking for by name, phone number and other details because apparently my place is on the secondary route for the big O when he comes here.

He showed me a Section 8 which is a Garda request for private details (we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... its effectively a disclosure order).

It's funny what information we find out by accident. :rolleyes:

DeVore wrote: »

...
Bit odd to say the least. I'm sure I will get another visit when they discover this is me (in protest at Fianna Fail)



DeV.

Eh you do know that pic is probably stored in Langley or some other place we have never heard of ?
Have you visited US since that pic ?

And US embassies do not like people taking photogrpahs outside their territories.

DeVore wrote: »

A Section 8 is a Judge-ordered instruction to release data. It would be contempt of court to refuse. If you dont comply, you go to jail.... in fact afaik its the only thing Liam Lawlor ever saw the inside of a jail for.

We comply with any Section 8's we get but they arent common. Most websites comply with any Garda request for information or legal threatening letter, while we make them go get a judges order so its not like we give up data easily.

The majority dont come from the Gardai at all, they come from libel cases where someone wants to prove someone elses identity.

So do you inform the users that you have divuldged their details to the authorities or indeed to a lawfirm etc ?

Sounds very Chinese internet to me.

Wolfe Tone

So do you inform the users that you have divuldged their details to the authorities or indeed to a lawfirm etc ?

Sounds very Chinese internet to me.

Its common knowledge that boards and other internet sites give these details, most do at any hint of a legal threat, I think its great that Dev and boards don't and insist on a court order.

Remember you are not annon at all.

seamus

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Sounds to me like you have been lied to. Check out this thread, seems a similar situation, no mention made of a section 8 there!

Yes, because the Gardai are stupid enough to go around producing fake section 8s to people at the doorstep. Then one day they knock on the door of a barrister (or a judge!) who checks it out and blows the whistle. No, if they have legal documentation you can be sure it's valid.

No mention of a section 8 in that other thread, because most people probably don't even ask. A lot of companies on O'Connell St have had similar calls from the Gardai demanding the full names, addresses and PPSN of all the keyholders, and I've been wondering how they could legally request that, but a Section 8 would do just fine.

There's also a chance that in some areas they're just collecting names rather than anything more, so they wouldn't necessarily need any legal documentation.

DeV, I'd say such a blanket S8 is rare enough, but as I mention above they would have their i's dotted and t's crossed lest they knock on the door of someone who knows better than the Gardai.

DeVore

I am coded in the CIA database. I have been for many years and I'm weirdly ok with that. I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I have done and I'm quite law-abiding.

I do get funny looks as I enter the States.

I wrote a Q&A on boards about it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54211637&postcount=146

This was all before Boards.ie came along so God only knows how many lists I am on but thats ok, they can record me in their lists if they like.... its when they start doing things like tapping phones or constraining travel that I get annoyed.

As for S8, the ugly truth is that almost all of them are for libel. I don't think we've ever had one for "security" or any of that nonsense.

DeV.

DeVore

Oh, on the specific S8... I asked and the Garda was very professional and showed me his copy and I had a good long read over it. He was quite surprised I even knew what a Section 8 was .... few would I guess. Had a chat with him about where the data would go and for how long and a chat about how on earth they got a section 8 for the whole route.

I mean I guess its the only pragmatic way but it just goes to show...

DeV.

DeVore

Seamus, there was certainly no reluctance to show me it. In fact if anything the poor Garda looked positively delighted to meet someone who was interested in the topic hahah...

DeV.

markpb

DeVore wrote: »

Seamus, there was certainly no reluctance to show me it. In fact if anything the poor Garda looked positively delighted to meet someone who was interested in the topic hahah...

Maybe this is a silly question but section 8 of which act? I always wondered what authority (if any) the Gardai had when questioning people about their home/work/car or if they just relied on most people answering the questions out of good faith.

Amalgam

What's to stop the data being copied/passed on and 'exported' beyond the state's boundaries?

sink

Amalgam wrote: »

What's to stop the data being copied/passed on and 'exported' beyond the state's boundaries?

Google/Facebook already has all that information, who do you trust more the Gardai or Google?

DeVore

The DPA officially, but unofficially nothing of course.... The census is being collated by a very dodgy US company btw , which is a bit more important than my telephone number!

DeV.

Wolfe Tone

DeVore wrote: »

I am coded in the CIA database. I have been for many years and I'm weirdly ok with that. I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I have done and I'm quite law-abiding.

I do get funny looks as I enter the States.

I wrote a Q&A on boards about it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54211637&postcount=146

This was all before Boards.ie came along so God only knows how many lists I am on but thats ok, they can record me in their lists if they like.... its when they start doing things like tapping phones or constraining travel that I get annoyed.

As for S8, the ugly truth is that almost all of them are for libel. I don't think we've ever had one for "security" or any of that nonsense.

DeV.

Thats a terrific thread.

mgmt

DeVore wrote: »

I wrote a Q&A on boards about it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54211637&postcount=146

I think you overreacted there. You represented a media/internet organisation and were invited to a business luncheon at the US Embassey. Nothing really sinister at all. It's part of the functions of foreign embasseys. To make contacts in order to further the economic ties between the countries. I'm sure all of our embasseys are doing something similar. And Google scans newspapers all the time.

ei.sdraob

DeVore wrote: »

we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account...

Anyone else find that rather disturbing?

Time to start using proxies so..

P. Breathnach

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Anyone else find that rather disturbing?

Time to start using proxies so..

Or simply post things that would not be an embarrassment to you were your identity disclosed.

Ste.phen

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Anyone else find that rather disturbing?

Time to start using proxies so..

Most proxy providers would provide the same info on receipt of a court order, surely?

ei.sdraob

Ste.phen wrote: »

Most proxy providers would provide the same info on receipt of a court order, surely?

If you are the provider... in another country outside their jurisdiction ...

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Or simply post things that would not be an embarrassment to you were your identity disclosed.

I see you continue to take little digs at me :rolleyes: I suppose you have no concerns about living in a banana republic (that is now taking a chunk of your pension) with idiotic quirks such as the blasphemy law.

Corsendonk

Amalgam wrote: »

What's to stop the data being copied/passed on and 'exported' beyond the state's boundaries?

Its the Garda, they most likely leave all the files out the back when they need space in the office for the new coffee machine so any passerby can trawl through the files to their hearts content.

I once was in a Garda station getting a form signed and I could see an evidence bag for a rape case on the table behind him with the details of the two people involved wrote on the brown paper bag and the alleged crime and location of the incident for anyone to see if they walked in.

jmayo

DeVore wrote: »

I am coded in the CIA database. I have been for many years and I'm weirdly ok with that. I'm not ashamed of who I am and what I have done and I'm quite law-abiding.

I do get funny looks as I enter the States.

Well if the casinos can afford advanced facial recogniton software imagine what CIA/NSA have.
But do you mind somebody classifying you and possibly monitoring you at times ?
AFAIK according to the patriotic act you can be questioned and you do not have the right to let anybody know.

DeVore wrote: »

I wrote a Q&A on boards about it here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54211637&postcount=146

This was all before Boards.ie came along so God only knows how many lists I am on but thats ok, they can record me in their lists if they like.... its when they start doing things like tapping phones or constraining travel that I get annoyed.

BTW translator makes a change from the usual cultural attache.

As Gene Hackman famously pointed out in that movie you need to remove all electronic devices and possibly your trousers to be sure you aren't being monitored.

Personally the one I don't like is mobile tracking and the roving bugging.
It is very 1984 ish when our movements and conversations can be monitored at almost anytime.

DeVore wrote: »

As for S8, the ugly truth is that almost all of them are for libel. I don't think we've ever had one for "security" or any of that nonsense.

DeV.

Does calling someone a fat useless feckwit bast*** or lying git qualify for libel ?
Oh wait that last bit was for willie o'dea and he has admitted to it.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Or simply post things that would not be an embarrassment to you were your identity disclosed.

Yeah but I don't like somebody profiling me.
Maybe I am paranoid, but it is too damm easy to now profile using easily available surfing data.
Everything we do is being monitored and all our interactions can soon be recorded and collated.
That is fine when it is being just used to secure us from "evil" people (e.g terrorists, peadophiles) who want to harm us, but what if the authorities decide to use it to control those who disgaree with their goals ?

randylonghorn

jmayo wrote: »

It's funny what information we find out by accident. :rolleyes:

DeV / Boards have never made any secret of the fact that they will release information when (and only when) legally required to do so.

In fact, it's been said so often around here that I'm bored listening to it! :pac:

As has been pointed out several times, they only do so when they have to from a legal standpoint, and much less freely / easily than many sites.

Section 8's aren't that easy to get (which I assume is why DeV is surprised on was issued for the full route) and even an average 1-3 p.a. to a site the size of Boards is actually tiny.

I'm not completely mad about the level of info that can be derived from the net these days myself, even if you exercise good sense (and I think I do), but Boards does a hell of a lot more than most to protect its members' asses (even from themselves ... almost always the real danger!!).


OT: I'm a little surprised myself at the range of the order, but I guess it's the most effective means to do a trawl ... even at that, efficacy would be minimal enough really.

P. Breathnach

jmayo wrote: »

... Yeah but I don't like somebody profiling me....

That's not something that worries me at all so long as they get things right. And if they do get things right, they will find that I am not at all interesting (for that meaning of "interesting" that matters to the sorts of agencies that compile profiles).

I don't like the state intruding unduly on people's privacy, but I accept the idea of public space, and that it is not intrusive to take note of what I do in public. It's legitimate to photograph me in the street without asking for my express consent, but it's not legitimate to photograph me in private space without my permission. I regard email as being in private space, and postings in online forums as being in public space. So you may collect and peruse all I say here, but stay away from my email accounts.

DeVore

mgmt wrote: »

I think you overreacted there. You represented a media/internet organisation and were invited to a business luncheon at the US Embassey. Nothing really sinister at all. It's part of the functions of foreign embasseys. To make contacts in order to further the economic ties between the countries. I'm sure all of our embasseys are doing something similar. And Google scans newspapers all the time.

This was long before Boards.ie, I was data captured because I started Electronic Frontier Ireland and was interviewed by the Irish Times.

DeV.

nesf

...Must resist urge to move this to Conspiracy Theories...

Overheal

AFAIK according to the patriotic act you can be questioned and you do not have the right to let anybody know.

USA Patriot Act. It's a specific Acronym: Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001


So DeV they didn't invite you to have cocktails with the Queen and Obama?

johnnyskeleton

DeVore wrote: »

A Section 8 is a Judge-ordered instruction to release data. It would be contempt of court to refuse. If you dont comply, you go to jail.... in fact afaik its the only thing Liam Lawlor ever saw the inside of a jail for.

We comply with any Section 8's we get but they arent common. Most websites comply with any Garda request for information or legal threatening letter, while we make them go get a judges order so its not like we give up data easily.

The majority dont come from the Gardai at all, they come from libel cases where someone wants to prove someone elses identity.

S8's are rare though, they are hard to get because they require a sitting of a judge who will ask a lot of questions as to why its needed etc. They are a million times harder to get then a standard threatening legal letter (which we could paper the walls with and which we dont release info on receipt of).

We probably get 1-3 S8's a year.

Section 8 of what?

DeVore

I have to have a giggle at some people's naivety about their personal data.

Let me put it like this. A Section 8 is a JUDGE ORDERED disclosure order. That means they put the request in front of a judge who has issued the data equivalent of an Arrest Warrant for data. It is (beyond some sort of Presidential decree), the highest power in the land and telling them "no" is a decidedly bad idea. Its pretty much immediate Contempt of Court.

Now, S8's are pretty damned difficult to get. They take a long time / lots of expense and Judges dont give them out like confetti, they do seriously question them. The entire MCD debacle was because they wouldnt go and get one. Instead they took a case against us so we would have to take the stand and THEN they could ask us who posted that thread under oath. 7 years on and we never revealed the info.

In all things, there is always a higher authority and they have cops and guns and ultimately they would come and enforce a Section 8.
Once they have a Judge's sign off... you are on the wrong side of a court order and even Liam Lawlor, as I pointed out above, did time for refusing a judges order.
S8's are the top of the line and its as far as we can go to defend your privacy.

We are lucky, we can stand up to the legal letters... many sites simply cant, or are so scared because they dont know how feeble a "Cease and Desist" letter is from Dewy, Screuthem & Howe Solicitors are. Most people would wet themselves and simply roll over.
( We auctioned our first one to raise funds for RAM for the servers )

But these instruments exist. Did any of you serious believe that online is the last "Wild West". Of course there is a way for them to demand our data. But we make them jump through the proper hoops. Thats how its SUPPOSED to be done. What they get then, is an email address, an IP and a datastamp.

As RandyLonghorn has said, we have (from day one) said that if we are presented with a court order demanding your details, we willk comply. We are nor responsible for your words.


You are.


DeV.

ps: calling someone a "dirty gee-bag who smells of pooh" is classed as "Gross Abuse" and probably not actionable. It might get you banned from here but insinuating that someone isnt ood at their job WILL get you smacked if they take offence.

johnnyskeleton

jmayo wrote: »

Personally the one I don't like is mobile tracking and the roving bugging.
It is very 1984 ish when our movements and conversations can be monitored at almost anytime.

I suppose there is almost protection in the information overload. There is simply so much information available to anyone with a mind to use it, that it is incredibly time consuming to find out anything in any way useful in relation to them. I occasionally say or do something completely contradictory just to add to the confusion.

blacktalons

DeVore wrote: »

A very pleasant and courteous Garda came knocking a few days ago looking for by name, phone number and other details because apparently my place is on the secondary route for the big O when he comes here.

He showed me a Section 8 which is a Garda request for private details (we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... its effectively a disclosure order).

A lot of the data was about my car (I dont have one, I dont drive) and who else might be staying here.


Ok, I am not wild about giving out my data but then again, I understand their needs and apparently it will be destroyed by the end of June.

What I found weird was that such a wide ranging Section 8 was given. I mean, it covered the whole route in one document.



Bit odd to say the least. I'm sure I will get another visit when they discover this is me (in protest at Fianna Fail)



DeV.

holy ****:eek: you certainly let the cat outta the bag with that one. ****in:k cops will love you for that. boards.ie want our views,and you give them our ip address, must come in handy for getting fines quashed.:pac:

randylonghorn

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I occasionally say or do something completely contradictory just to add to the confusion.

I do that too, but usually because I'm 90% asleep ... must steal your rationale, it's far more impressive!

blacktalons wrote: »

holy ****:eek: you certainly let the cat outta the bag with that one. ****in:k cops will love you for that. boards.ie want our views,and you give them our ip address, must come in handy for getting fines quashed.:pac:

Srsly ... read the whole fupping thread!

K-9

Without going into the Conspiracy Theory and Police power territory, can you give a brief and vague idea of what the 1-3 cases a year are about?

Orion

DeVore wrote: »

TDoes anyone here know if getting a S8 for a entire route is even possible? acceptible? Maybe I should have posted this in Legal Discussion hmmmm.

DeV.

I got a haircut today in Westmoreland St. and the barber there told me that the police had been in getting names, addresses and other details of the staff in the barbershop.

I work for a multi-national not far from there. In the morning I'm going to ask our HR department if they got a similar request for details. While I understand the reasons I've issues with police state kind of intrusions.

hinault

DeVore wrote: »

He showed me a Section 8 which is a Garda request for private details (we occasionally get them from the Gardai into Boards when they want to know the IP/Email behind an account... its effectively a disclosure order).

I presume, indeed I would hope, that you contact the username/IP account holder to inform them of the Gardai's serving Boards with a Section 8?

hinault

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Anyone else find that rather disturbing?

yes, I do.

But if a garda turns up on your doorstep with a court order you're legally obliged to disclose whatever the order requires.

I don't however buy the b/s line about Gardai having to jump through hoops to obtain an order from a judge.
That's just b/s.

As someone who had a search warrant presented to him some time back, my solicitor said that a garda just has to say to a judge that he
has a suspicion about something. The Garda doesn't have to provide any evidence to the judge in his application. He just has to say he has a suspicion and needs a search warrant.

Esel

When I hear Section 8, I think M.A.S.H.

DeVore

K-9 wrote: »

Without going into the Conspiracy Theory and Police power territory, can you give a brief and vague idea of what the 1-3 cases a year are about?

From memory, one was for a guy who was clearly trying to "groom" preteens for an incredibly dubious and obvious "photoshoot" to model underwear. Others have been for things like "I want to sue that guy" and they have gone to a judge and gotten an S8 and they will take that info to Eircom and with another S8 get the address of the poster. As far as I am concerned, "you own your own words". In fact, search for that term and you will see that I have been saying that since 2000. You want to say something contentious, great... but I'm not going to be your human shield. You say it, you own it.

Remember we have 2M unique people come here per quarter, 34M posts per month. 1-3 S8's a year is pretty amazingly low.

DeV.

DeVore

hinault wrote: »

yes, I do.

But if a garda turns up on your doorstep with a court order you're legally obliged to disclose whatever the order requires.

I don't however buy the b/s line about Gardai having to jump through hoops to obtain an order from a judge.
That's just b/s.

As someone who had a search warrant presented to him some time back, my solicitor said that a garda just has to say to a judge that he
has a suspicion about something. The Garda doesn't have to provide any evidence to the judge in his application. He just has to say he has a suspicion and needs a search warrant.

Let me be clear about this:

You or I (or a company or another person) would have to go to some trouble to get one.


Gardai can (patently) get them fairly easily.


The amount that the Judges in this country simply take the Gardai's word for things is astonishing.

They dont, however, bother us with them particularly. They rarely have anything here they are interested in.... which is fine by us.

DeV.

hinault

DeVore wrote: »

From memory, one was for a guy who was clearly trying to "groom" preteens for an incredibly dubious and obvious "photoshoot" to model underwear. Others have been for things like "I want to sue that guy" and they have gone to a judge and gotten an S8 and they will take that info to Eircom and with another S8 get the address of the poster. As far as I am concerned, "you own your own words". In fact, search for that term and you will see that I have been saying that since 2000. You want to say something contentious, great... but I'm not going to be your human shield. You say it, you own it.

Remember we have 2M unique people come here per quarter, 34M posts per month. 1-3 S8's a year is pretty amazingly low.

DeV.

I presume you informed the account holder that the gardai had served you with S-8?