teacher refusing to teach !!

canonball5

I understand that many people will have a personal view on this issue but any constructive comments you may have would help !!

Just wondering if anyone knows if this is possible.My brother made a comment about his teachers sexual orientation and has been suspended from school
He was back last week and the teacher in question is now refusing to teach him..
He has a practical project to complete for his Junior Cert and this is not getting done.

Has the teacher the right to refuse to teach him after he was served his punishment.
Does anyone know the Dept of Education stance on this?

TheDriver

It would depend on context of the offence as in was there a lot more to it, maybe your brother strolled in as if nothing had happened, maybe an apology is necessary. Maybe your brother has been tormenting the Teacher.
Its a lot more than someone's "rights", its about being part of the school community.

canonball5

TheDriver wrote: »

It would depend on context of the offence as in was there a lot more to it, maybe your brother strolled in as if nothing had happened, maybe an apology is necessary. Maybe your brother has been tormenting the Teacher.
Its a lot more than someone's "rights", its about being part of the school community.

An apology has been issued from my brother and also my parents.This was a class room joke in which my stupid brother was over-heard saying :rolleyes:.
He was in actual fact a pretty good student, but the school has said they need to set an example so this does not continue,(which i think is the wrong way to go).
As i see it all that can be done,has been done
Is a state paid teacher allowed to refuse to teach??

evolving_doors

Every child has the right to an education under the constitution so there may be a legal case against the school if it's being denied (as was played out in the Sinnott case),, but in saying that the teacher also has certain rights too so it'd be nice case for some lawyers if your brothers parents felt like taking it further..

The best thing would be to tell yer brother to face up and apologise profusely (again if necessary), the teacher's probably still smarting a bit.

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

E

Every child has the right to an education under the constitution

Have they a right to be taught in a specific school by a specific teacher though?

implausible

canonball5 wrote: »

Has the teacher the right to refuse to teach him after he was served his punishment.

TheDriver wrote: »

Its a lot more than someone's "rights", its about being part of the school community.

What about the teacher's right to work in a place where s/he is not subject to abuse about her/his sexual orientation? In what other job would the abuser just apologise, the victim be expected to accept it and carry on as usual? If he did this in a job, he could be fired or brought to court.

Can he not join another teacher's class? Can the project not be completed under the supervision of another teacher?

mlmini

canonball5 wrote: »

I understand that many people will have a personal view on this issue but any constructive comments you may have would help !!

Just wondering if anyone knows if this is possible.My brother made a comment about his teachers sexual orientation and has been suspended from school
He was back last week and the teacher in question is now refusing to teach him..
He has a practical project to complete for his Junior Cert and this is not getting done.

Has the teacher the right to refuse to teach him after he was served his punishment.
Does anyone know the Dept of Education stance on this?[/QUOTE the student has appologised and that should be the end of it!!! get over it and get on with your job!!! least she has one!!!!! teenage boys say stupid things all the time! the schools in this country would be empty if all teachers took this stance!

implausible

mlmini wrote: »

get over it and get on with your job!!! least she has one!!!!! teenage boys say stupid things all the time! the schools in this country would be empty if all teachers took this stance!

Yes, you're quite right - we're lucky to have jobs, we really should "get over" any abuse that is thrown at us. I mean, that's what we're paid for - to take sh*t from teenagers. Actually teaching them is an added extra:rolleyes:

canonball5

deemark wrote: »

What about the teacher's right to work in a place where s/he is not subject to abuse about her/his sexual orientation? In what other job would the abuser just apologise, the victim be expected to accept it and carry on as usual? If he did this in a job, he could be fired or brought to court.

Can he not join another teacher's class? Can the project not be completed under the supervision of another teacher?

Thanks Dee but as i said he's an idiot for saying it and has been punished for it..
He is 14 and clearly inmature, should a teacher not show some professional integrity here??
I would have thought a teacher hears much worse than being called gay when dealing with teenagers on a daily basis !!

gaeilgebeo

deemark wrote: »

What about the teacher's right to work in a place where s/he is not subject to abuse about her/his sexual orientation? In what other job would the abuser just apologise, the victim be expected to accept it and carry on as usual? If he did this in a job, he could be fired or brought to court.

Can he not join another teacher's class? Can the project not be completed under the supervision of another teacher?

I completely agree.
A student does have the right to an education but a teacher also has a right not be be abused by pupils in the workplace. Works both ways.
To comment on a teachers sexual orientation is so personal and crossing the line bigtime.
I can completely understand the teachers stance on it. Proper order.
I would suggest that your brother tries to join a different class group.

goat2

the reason people attend school is to learn, one of those lessons is to respect, where was respect for the teacher,

canonball5

goat2 wrote: »

the reason people attend school is to learn, one of those lessons is to respect, where was respect for the teacher,

I think if we all took offense to what teenage boys said we would live in a very sad world !!!

delta_bravo

Rosita wrote: »

Have they a right to be taught in a specific school by a specific teacher though?

Afaik no. The constitution mentions some thing like entitlement to a reasonable level of education which is incredibly vague and intentionally so to accommodate homeschooling.

I understand the teachers stance and I would say considering pupil got such a hefty suspension the principal will stand by the teachers decision.

rainbowtrout

canonball5 wrote: »

I would have thought a teacher hears much worse than being called gay when dealing with teenagers on a daily basis !!

canonball5 wrote: »

I think if we all took offense to what teenage boys said we would live in a very sad world !!!

Well I'm glad you think it's perfectly OK to abuse a teacher in their workplace, no one else would get away with it in any other workplace. Why do you think it's acceptable?

Some apology the teacher must have gotten with your attitude

bro can do his project himself and learn how to behave in future

delta_bravo

canonball5 wrote: »

I think if we all took offense to what teenage boys said we would live in a very sad world !!!

So you would tolerate the pupils behaviour then? Maybe you can brush off the odd remark but what of it was 10 times a day, 5 days a week you may not be so lax in your stance.

goat2

canonball5 wrote: »

I think if we all took offense to what teenage boys said we would live in a very sad world !!!

the person did not say, what the pupil said,

canonball5

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well I'm glad you think it's perfectly OK to abuse a teacher in their workplace, no one else would get away with it in any other workplace. Why do you think it's acceptable?

Rainbow im completely baffled how you are reading that into my posts.As I have said what he did was completely wrong and he has been punished !!
It is not acceptable to do what he done..

delta_bravo

One compromise you could suggest to the school is for the pupil to have a parent present with them in the class. I have heard of this being done in some schools.
You may have already done this but organise a meeting with the principal asap with the teacher present to mediate. I wouldn't start with the department, go to the school first

Thor

Without knowing exactly what happened, There may need to be more context for this, But if it was one instance then the student was punished by the school for what he said, If the teacher taught the punishment wasn't enough then there problem is with the principle or whoever is in charge)

The student got his punishment and dealt with it, Also the OP state's has already apologized for what they said. Nothing more can be done about it.

As far as not teaching the student they aren't allowed!! They are paid to teach the students. I know it sounds harsh but that is the rule.

Example If teachers go on strike, They don't get paid!! But this teacher is still getting paid for not teaching a specific student for a slanderous comment. That is not fair.

Boy's will be Boy's as they say, No argument can change that.

mrboswell

Not assuming that this is the case with your brother but this could be the tip of the iceberg. Maybe this teacher has been getting abuse and decided that this is where it should stop.

I agree that the school should make an example of certain cases of misbehavior, but it does come down to whether the apology is enough. Transfer class, get a new teacher and lesson learnt.

The teacher does have rights, along with the students, to be comfortable in the class environment. If the shoe was on the other foot there would be serious problems for a teacher.

Of course the teacher is the professional and should be able to deal with it but I would certainly like to think that if I was finding it very difficult to teach a particular student and I felt I couldn't d my job effectively in the circumstances that the school would move the the student to another class.

I have seen a teacher who was doing the dip at the time be subjected to daily abuse and even then he refused to teach a particular student - and I agreed with his decision.

Long story short - change teacher and get on with it

canonball5

delta_bravo wrote: »

One compromise you could suggest to the school is for the pupil to have a parent present with them in the class. I have heard of this being done in some schools.
You may have already done this but organise a meeting with the principal asap with the teacher present to mediate. I wouldn't start with the department, go to the school first

Delta thank you this is the sort of post i was looking for.A meeting has been held and afraid did not go well.It ended up with the teacher in question walking out as he felt he was not being protected by the school.He then sent a letter to the board saying how disappointed he was with the school and would refuse the teach my brother!!

goat2

canonball5 wrote: »

Rainbow im completely baffled how you are reading that into my posts.As I have said what he did was completely wrong and he has been punished !!
It is not acceptable to do what he done..

i would think he has learned his lesson, as you have said it is unacceptable, he is young, so we cannot put old head on young shoulders, and the fact that his family think and have said to him that he should be careful in future, i guess, if he has never had a problem before, he does deserve a chance, he has learnt from it and he should just be let move on.

rainbowtrout

canonball5 wrote: »

Rainbow im completely baffled how you are reading that into my posts.As I have said what he did was completely wrong and he has been punished !!
It is not acceptable to do what he done..

Well your opinion seems to be that it should be water off a ducks back to us teachers to have our sexual orientation questioned in class, and your brother may well have apologised etc,but to his classmates what that looks like is that it's perfectly OK to abuse a teacher like that and there are no major repercussions from it.

A student hit me in class last week, do you think I should just brush it off as a minor incident and put it down to 'boys will be boys' ?

rainbowtrout

canonball5 wrote: »

Delta thank you this is the sort of post i was looking for.A meeting has been held and afraid did not go well.It ended up with the teacher in question walking out as he felt he was not being protected by the school.He then sent a letter to the board saying how disappointed he was with the school and would refuse the teach my brother!!

Well maybe the teacher isn't being protected here. Maybe there is more to it than you are aware of.

canonball5

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Well your opinion seems to be that it should be water off a ducks back to us teachers to have our sexual orientation questioned in class, and your brother may well have apologised etc,but to his classmates what that looks like is that it's perfectly OK to abuse a teacher like that and there are no major repercussions from it.

A student hit me in class last week, do you think I should just brush it off as a minor incident and put it down to 'boys will be boys' ?

I'm disappointed that people let alone a teacher would have a view like this. The school in question has made it abundantly clear that this behaviour is unacceptable..At the risk of repeating myself maybe you should read over my past posts before making silly comments !

sitstill

This is crazy. So according to this OP, we teachers should allow students to be abusive and in this case make an extremely personal comment in class and then allow the student back into the class after a short suspension.

There is no way the teacher should have to teach that student again until he is sure the student has learned his lesson. Being a teacher myself, I know what teenage boys are like and he probably swaggered back into the classroom after his suspension. They are not afraid of suspensions.

It's his JC and it's his JC project. He needs to do his own project and the teacher can't really help him anyway so there's no reason why he can't do it at home or in another classroom. It might give him some time to consider that teachers don't deserve their personal lives being thrown in their faces while they are trying to do their job.

mistyd

There is obviously more to this than just one comment (even if it is a particularly nasty one). No teacher I know would refuse to teach an exam student without a VERY good reason. We don't know the level of abuse this teacher has taken so we can't really say if the teacher is right or wrong. I would presume the teacher is within their rights if the principal has not enforced the teaching.

and there has to be a limit to what teachers can take in schools from students, especially in secondary, sure how are they ever going to learn if they can do exactly what they like with no consequences.

OP maybe a serious apology to the teacher in question, a sincere promise this will never happen again would go a long way with the teacher, if the limit has not already been passed.

evolving_doors

Change teacher is all well and good but what about if the student still wants to take that particular subject and there is no other teacher, (could another teacher also be seen to be siding with a student by taking him in?? thus undermining the original teacher.)
How about the student is precluded from doing the subject for the LC just because that teacher is still at odds with him.

I think we need to step back from the 'tell him to get stuffed' comments, At the end of the day the student is not an adult (14yrs old) and as such is incapable of making adult decisions, sure we don't really know the ins and outs of the situation as it could have either been constant intimidation or a once off stupid remark.

Which situation would the student learn the most from
A. Exclusion and isolation to the point of resentment on both sides for the next 3 years
B. Burying the axe and getting on with the task in hand

I think after the suspension a line had been drawn in the sand as regards the potential for future misbehavior and recriminations, so if I was a teacher in this case I would only be too happy to forgive but not forget,, the student realises that any further trouble would result in a worse punishment than another suspension.

rainbowtrout

canonball5 wrote: »

I'm disappointed that people let alone a teacher would have a view like this. The school in question has made it abundantly clear that this behaviour is unacceptable..At the risk of repeating myself maybe you should read over my past posts before making silly comments !

My comments are not silly, I don't agree with your point of view, it doesn't make mine invalid.

The school has issued a punishment. That does not mean the teacher was happy with the outcome of the incident. Maybe there has been a knock on effect as a result of your brothers comment. Maybe your brother apologised and there wasn't a bit of sincerity or remorse in his apology and it's only a matter of time before he passes comment like that again. What will happen then? If the teacher wasn't happy with the outcome they are entitled to pursue it further.

canonball5

We seem to be getting a bit off my original post now !! :rolleyes:

eor123

This story is absolutly redicilious. Its the teachers job to teach the student, right, fair enought he made a very rude an unacceptable comment towards the teacher, but presumably he had a meeting with the teacher and all the rest, did the punishment, and now just get over it and get on with more important things. Its one thing punishing a student for disrespect but the teacher is taking it too far by refusing to teach the student.
At the end of the day the teacher is getting paid to teach - the teacher isnt getting paid to get abuse but that has presumably been dealt with so get back to the job in hand, the exams are only a month away, there is no time to be messing around stupidly.

canonball5

rainbowtrout wrote: »

My comments are not silly, I don't agree with your point of view, it doesn't make mine invalid.

The school has issued a punishment. That does not mean the teacher was happy with the outcome of the incident. Maybe there has been a knock on effect as a result of your brothers comment. Maybe your brother apologised and there wasn't a bit of sincerity or remorse in his apology and it's only a matter of time before he passes comment like that again. What will happen then? If the teacher wasn't happy with the outcome they are entitled to pursue it further.

you are looking to pick holes in everything I say,thank you for your thus far unconstructive comments..I'm glad you seem to think you know me and my family so well !!

canonball5

eor123 wrote: »

This story is absolutly redicilious. Its the teachers job to teach the student, right, fair enought he made a very rude an unacceptable comment towards the teacher, but presumably he had a meeting with the teacher and all the rest, did the punishment, and now just get over it and get on with more important things. Its one thing punishing a student for disrespect but the teacher is taking it too far by refusing to teach the student.
At the end of the day the teacher is getting paid to teach - the teacher isnt getting paid to get abuse but that has presumably been dealt with so get back to the job in hand, the exams are only a month away, there is no time to be messing around stupidly.

Thanks eor you summed up my point in one post !!

gaeilgebeo

canonball5 wrote: »

you are looking to pick holes in everything I say,thank you for your thus far for your unconstructive comments..I'm glad you seem to think you know me and my familt so well !!

Well if your brother has the same attitude you seem to have , then I can completely see why the teacher is refusing to teach him.

rainbowtrout

canonball5 wrote: »

you are looking to pick holes in everything I say,thank you for your thus far for your unconstructive comments..I'm glad you seem to think you know me and my familt so well !!

No, I'm not, just putting forward the possibility that there is another side of the story that you don't appear to be remotely interested in. Do notice that I said maybe. If you post on a forum, you'll have to accept that not everyone is going to agree with you. Also I've seen enough students over the years who will swear black is white to their parents and paint a completely different story of themselves at home to what they are like in school. Not saying your brother has done this, but don't rule out the possibility. That can range from all sorts of things like 'That teacher never gives us homework' which can translate to 'I can't be bothered doing the home for that subject' to 'I am a perfect angel in school and never put a foot wrong' which can translate to 'I am a total pain in the arse in class and take no responsibility for my behaviour and generally cause hassle for all those around me'

spurious

A teacher (especially a teacher in a room with machinery and tools) is quite within their rights to refuse to teach any student on the grounds of Health and Safety. This includes that of the teacher and of other students in the classroom.

evolving_doors

Back to the original post questions

canonball5 wrote: »

Has the teacher the right to refuse to teach him after he was served his punishment?

Lawers will tell both parties they've a very good case, so the only way to find out who's right when both parties have rights is to go to court and see what happens,, (or else make a threat of legal action to the school and see if they back down)... the chances of that happening are slim to none esp for a 3rd year student..

effectively the answer is yes and no

canonball5 wrote: »

Does anyone know the Dept of Education stance on this?

Simple answer = NO
The DOE wouldnt even know where it stands on this. The Dept .only pays the wages, (try ringing them and asking to be put through to the relevant department), your issue in this case would be with the Board of Management who employs the teacher.

evolving_doors

I think the general consensus in this thread is that your bother needs to apologise again.
and again
and again
and again
then beg
then grovel
etc...

canonball5

Armelodie wrote: »

I think the general consensus in this thread is that your bother needs to apologise again.
and again
and again
and again
then beg
then grovel
etc...

Yes I agree, enough time has been wasted !!
Thanks Armelodie it took a couple of hours but i got the answer I was looking for...

TORCH THE SCHOOL

bdoo

Everyone has the right to carry out their work in an environment free from harassment and innuendo. This includes students.


It is the case that the right of the teacher as outlined above was violated.

It is the case that the student in question was responsible for this and received a punishment for it.

They are all the facts that we know. Everything else is guesswork.

The student has no entitlement to be in any particular class and if a teacher feels that they cannot carry out their job effectively in the circumstances then removal is warranted.

There is presumably a full class of students who need to be looked after too, the right to a positive learning environment for the whole class must also be considered.

This thread has gone very anti teacher.

To put it in perspective I suggest you try the following:

1) Enter your local Pub / Shop / Restaurant etc.
2) Verbally abuse an employee in the presence of approx. 20 other customers, not forgetting to question their sexual orientation (Like it makes a difference to how well they do their job)
3) Leave casually in your own time (If you are not man-handled out the place)
4)Return the following day and expect service with a smile
5)Be disappointed


Maybe the kid deserves a break, maybe the teacher does. I don't know. Only the school and the kid do and in time they will sort it.

evolving_doors

If that doesn;t work and he's still serious about doing the subject in the future (who cares about the JC anyway!!) then maybe if he could get an older student who is on good terms with the teacher to plead on his behalf.. at the mo. the teacher obviously hates the sight of him.. perhaps there might be a prefect system whereby some of the older students are assigned to junior classes as kind of mentors..

evolving_doors

canonball5 wrote: »

Yes I agree, enough time has been wasted !!
Thanks Armelodie it took a couple of hours but i got the answer I was looking for...

TORCH THE SCHOOL

My bet is the teacher will calm down eventually at the last moment if the student keeps the head down and apologises again...

please let us know the upshot,, I think the practicals are all but over now at this stage ?

canonball5

Armelodie wrote: »

If that doesn;t work and he's still serious about doing the subject in the future (who cares about the JC anyway!!) then maybe if he could get an older student who is on good terms with the teacher to plead on his behalf.. at the mo. the teacher obviously hates the sight of him.. perhaps there might be a prefect system whereby some of the older students are assigned to junior classes as kind of mentors..

Because of what has happened it's probably best if he drops this subjest next year.
Armelodie if your not a teacher,you should be !!!!

desertcircus

Your brother's best chance of getting his teacher to admit him back into the class probably starts with you reading this thread and understanding why people are getting angry. The people on this thread aren't giving out because it's fun; they're being negative because this is a story involving a teacher who had a student (at the absolute minimum) call him gay in class. That kind of behaviour is utterly unacceptable, and the reason the school are rowing in behind the teacher is because the teacher is entirely within their rights to sue them if they don't do what's necessary to ensure a workplace where he doesn't get harassed about his sexuality.

Your brother has a right to an education, but I'm pretty sure that doesn't necessarily include supervision from a teacher he's harassed. The teacher has a right to a workplace free from harassment, and I'm dead certain that does include support in dealing with an abusive student.

Until that teacher feels comfortable teaching your brother, he's not going back into that class. End of. So the sooner you give up on the "boys will be boys" nonsense the better. Your brother needs to convince his teacher that he genuinely regrets what he said and will never do it again - and the teacher needs to be happy that your brother being allowed back in won't undermine his position.

seriouslysweet

Course students have a right to be taught but I think teachers rights are overlooked too much. He should have to sit his exams in another centre in my opinion. Students like him take time from other students, like myself, who really want to learn.

the_syco

Why can "your brother" not continue his studies in another class?

canonball5 wrote: »

My brother made a comment about his teachers sexual orientation and has been suspended from school

What was the comment? That the teacher was gay, a pedo, etc?

canonball5 wrote: »

He has a practical project to complete for his Junior Cert and this is not getting done.

What is the subject?

canonball5 wrote: »

An apology has been issued from my brother and also my parents.This was a class room joke in which my stupid brother was over-heard saying :rolleyes:

Overheard by the teacher in question, or by another teacher or pupil?

=-=

I've seen a few people who think their little brat is an angel at school, so anything you say about your brother will be taken with a pinch of salt.

If the way you write your replies here are anything to go by, the apology was half-hearted. Your grievance isn't with the teacher, but with the school. Get the school to put your brother into another class.

enfant terrible

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Well if your brother has the same attitude you seem to have , then I can completely see why the teacher is refusing to teach him.

Can you refuse to teach a student because they have a bad attitude?

gaeilgebeo

enfant terrible wrote: »

Can you refuse to teach a student because they have a bad attitude?

Of course not, the teacher is refusing to teach him because of his remark about the teachers sexuality.
If the OPs brother has the same flippant attitude as the OP himself, I can see why the teacher won't teach him.

Art Teacher

The student appears to have made a comment about the teachers sexual orientation. Sexual orientation ( actual or imputed) is a protected ground. The teacher is entitled to teach free from harassment under the Employment Equality Acts 1998 to 2004.

As a sexual orientation comment has been made, the teacher is entitled to pursue the employer ( school ) for the harassment. Under the legislation, the only defense the employer can make is to (a) protect the teacher from receiving further treatment of this nature by the student, and (b) if and when such treatment has occured to reverse it effects.

The student here may have been punished and given an apology but if the teacher is not being protected from further acts, and if the effects of the comments have not been reversed for the teacher then this teacher is being discriminated against by the student.

Basically, it is unlawful for students to make offensive comments about sexual orientation.

canonball5

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Of course not, the teacher is refusing to teach him because of his remark about the teachers sexuality.
If the OPs brother has the same flippant attitude as the OP himself, I can see why the teacher won't teach him.

You think I have a flippant attitude because I express my views as I see them..My attitide has nothing to do with my original post and you seem to me to come from the old schol of teaching,where pupils must obey and not question.
<less of the digs at teachers thanks - it is quite possible for someone to be at work and not have a class at 10.49>