English People Voting For Sinn Fein - Does It Happen??

SharpshooterTom

We've heard that a lot of English people recently voting for the SNP in Scotland.

What about English people living in Ireland. Would it possible for any of them to vote for Sinn Fein, I'm just trying imagine that concept in my head. I guess there must be some though. Do they?

Boroimhe

I can't see why not, they are against English occupation not English people

Batsy

I can't see why not. The English are less unionist than some (or maybe all) of the Celtic nations. The Scots are more pro-UK than the English, but I'm not sure about the Northern irish.

Jim236

Batsy wrote: »

The English are less unionist than some (or maybe all) of the Celtic nations.

Apart from Wales (and even then), no they're not.

getz

Gnobe wrote: »

We've heard that a lot of English people recently voting for the SNP in Scotland.

What about English people living in Ireland. Would it possible for any of them to vote for Sinn Fein, I'm just trying imagine that concept in my head. I guess there must be some though. Do they?

most english people have a irish background,so why not,in 1885 a thomas power Oconner was elected irish nationalist MP for liverpool.

baalthor

Some have gone much further than voting ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Dugdale

Wolfe Tone

Yes of course some would and do.

A Dub in Glasgo

Gnobe wrote: »

We've heard that a lot of English people recently voting for the SNP in Scotland.

Are you referring to the post from Batsy on this? Do you have any further evidence of this?

Batsy was stating that then reason the SNP got a majority was because all the English living in Scotland voted for them so that they can leave the UK. I had not realised some where taking this stuff seriously :eek:

delos

getz wrote: »

most english people have a irish background,so why not,in 1885 a thomas power Oconner was elected irish nationalist MP for liverpool.

I know of at least one Scottish guy with no Irish background that he is aware of who votes Sinn Fein, so yes it does happen.

doopa

I've met a few Protestants in the South that don't have any problem with it.

I wouldn't be too surprised if a few English people I know in the north would vote for them either. Not necessary because of their nationalist slant obviously, but for people in England used to voting Labour and not impressed with the SDLP who else would you vote for?

mike65

doopa wrote: »

I've met a few Protestants in the South that don't have any problem with it.

Not sure what thats got to do with anything unless you think all English are Protestants.

doopa

mike65 wrote: »

Not sure what thats got to do with anything unless you think all English are Protestants.

I suppose I mean - I haven't met any protestants in the north that would vote SF, therefore its noteworthy that ones in the South would. And that I would assume (largely though ignorance/naivety) that in the South they would still have some kind of vestigal cultural affliation to their northern brethern.

Nodin

doopa wrote: »

I suppose I mean - I haven't met any protestants in the north that would vote SF, therefore its noteworthy that ones in the South would. And that I would assume (largely though ignorance/naivety) that in the South they would still have some kind of vestigal cultural affliation to their northern brethern.

Theres protestant members of SF in the North.

gigino

Given the sectarian nature of the military wing of sinn fein during the troubles, not too many protestants up North would vote for Sinn Fein. In contrast, Polls always show quite a not insignificant number of Roman Catholics in the North would like N.I. to remain part of the UK ( and when they see the unsustainable mess we have made here, why would'nt they ).

FTA69

I've met plenty of English people who were members of Sinn Féin, at least a dozen anyway. Most of these would have been previously involved in leftist groups in England but some hadn't. At the end of the day Irish Republicanism isn't about narrow nationalism, it's fundamentally internationalist and all races and nationalities have and continue to play a part in it.

dsmythy

Nodin wrote: »

Theres protestant members of SF in the North.

Was there many protestant election candidates for Sinn Féin? Anyone know?

DJCR

Scotland and N.Ireland are net gainers in the UK.... i.e. they recieve funding.

I may be mean in saying it but independance for these two countries would really bolster UK coffers which would be then spent in England and Wales. More money, less places to spend it.

So in short, they could be doing it for the money....

PatsytheNazi

FTA69 wrote: »

I've met plenty of English people who were members of Sinn Féin, at least a dozen anyway. Most of these would have been previously involved in leftist groups in England but some hadn't. At the end of the day Irish Republicanism isn't about narrow nationalism, it's fundamentally internationalist and all races and nationalities have and continue to play a part in it.

Probably the most famous English SFer would have been Erskine Childers of SF publicity dept and was shot by the Free State in 1922. His son went on to become President and grand daughter Nessa Childers is now a TD for Labour.

Cybercubed

English people in Northern Ireland voting for them? Not sure, there is an mla I think with an english accent but he's UUP.

LondonIrish90

DJCR wrote: »

Scotland and N.Ireland are net gainers in the UK.... i.e. they recieve funding.

I may be mean in saying it but independance for these two countries would really bolster UK coffers which would be then spent in England and Wales. More money, less places to spend it.

So in short, they could be doing it for the money....

I can't speak for English people in Ireland who vote for Sinn Fein, but for many people in England, the message that we are as a country giving money to Scotland and Northern Ireland when we face such massive and hard hitting cuts is starting to be heard. In fact, there is more popularity for English independence than there is for Scottish independence.

I would probably say though that English people voting for SF are not thinking of the benefits to England, but just want to align themselves with a left wing political party on the island they now live on.

The Scientician

Cybercubed wrote: »

English people in Northern Ireland voting for them? Not sure, there is an mla I think with an english accent but he's UUP.

David Ford, the leader of the Alliance Party, was born in England and has a kinda hybrid accent.

Batsy

Gnobe wrote: »

We've heard that a lot of English people recently voting for the SNP in Scotland.

What about English people living in Ireland. Would it possible for any of them to vote for Sinn Fein, I'm just trying imagine that concept in my head. I guess there must be some though. Do they?

I would also like to ask the question: "Why wouldn't English people vote for Sinn Fein?" The vast majority of the English don't care one way or another whether NI remains in the UK or not, and there are probably more English people who are in favour of NI breaking away from the UK as the Northern Irish themselves.

After all, more English are in favour of Scottish independence than Scots.

Also, would any Scots or Welsh vote for Sinn Fein?

Batsy

Jim236 wrote: »

Apart from Wales (and even then), no they're not.

When you consider that more English are in favour of Scottish independence than the Scots and that, after Plaid Cymru's poor showing in the recent election, maybe more in favour of Welsh independence than the Welsh then the English are less unionist than their Celtic neighbours.

who the fug

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Probably the most famous English SFer would have been Erskine Childers of SF publicity dept and was shot by the Free State in 1922. His son went on to become President and grand daughter Nessa Childers is now a TD for Labour.

More recently we have John Edward Drayton Stephenson

mlumley

I am English and have thought about voting SF. They were the only party against Lisbon, they suport a lot of my belifes, but for some reason, couldnt bring my self to put an x in their box. May be next time.

LondonIrish90

Jim236 wrote: »

Apart from Wales (and even then), no they're not.

The Welsh are hugely in favour of a union with England. I'm not sure they care so much about Scotland or Northern Ireland however.

sollar

mlumley wrote: »

I am English and have thought about voting SF. They were the only party against Lisbon, they suport a lot of my belifes, but for some reason, couldnt bring my self to put an x in their box. May be next time.

Break yourself in gently...give them a number 10 next time

Jim236

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

The Welsh are hugely in favour of a union with England. I'm not sure they care so much about Scotland or Northern Ireland however.

Thats why I said "apart from Wales".

getz

most english people dont give a F...,for politics,and will leave all the tribal crap.to the irish scots and welsh,all they know is it costs them money

robinph

mlumley wrote: »

I am English and have thought about voting SF. They were the only party against Lisbon, they suport a lot of my belifes, but for some reason, couldnt bring my self to put an x in their box. May be next time.

Same here. Possibly depends a bit on age as to what kind of news you grew up listening to about SF as to how strong the anti feeling is, but there is just no way I'd have been able to put a mark of any kind next to an SF candidate.

sollar wrote: »

Break yourself in gently...give them a number 10 next time

I was loosing count by the time I got down to SF on the ballots before. Did fill in most of the other boxes.

bhur

No.

Batsy

Jim236 wrote: »

Thats why I said "apart from Wales".

The majority of the Scots and Northern Irish want to be part of the UK, too. Not just the Welsh.

Jim236

Batsy wrote: »

The majority of the Scots and Northern Irish want to be part of the UK, too. Not just the Welsh.

Firstly theres no such thing as 'Northern Irish', it doesn't exist, you're either Irish or you're British. Secondly I don't think anyone is denying how Unionist the Unionists in the North of Ireland are (who only have a slight majority btw), but you can't compare the North with Scotland or Wales where you don't have the same kind of tribal politics. Lastly, I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss the amount of people in Scotland who want to leave the UK given the success of the SNP in the recent Scottish elections who based a large part of their campaign around Scottish independence.

junder

Jim236 wrote: »

Firstly theres no such thing as 'Northern Irish', it doesn't exist, you're either Irish or you're British. Secondly I don't think anyone is denying how Unionist the Unionists in the North of Ireland are (who only have a slight majority btw), but you can't compare the North with Scotland or Wales where you don't have the same kind of tribal politics. Lastly, I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss the amount of people in Scotland who want to leave the UK given the success of the SNP in the recent Scottish elections who based a large part of their campaign around Scottish independence.

I am northern Irish, but according to you I don't exist, therefore I must be a figment of your imagination, that being the case you should seek help immediately your obviously not well.

Jim236

junder wrote: »

I am northern Irish, but according to you I don't exist, therefore I must be a figment of your imagination, that being the case you should seek help immediately your obviously not well.

So do you follow GAA, do you support the Irish language, do you celebrate St. Patrick's Day etc etc? These are all parts of Irish culture, so if you're telling me that you subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity, then surely you subscribe to these aspects of Irish culture? No? Thought not.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jim236 wrote: »

So do you follow GAA, do you support the Irish language, do you celebrate St. Patrick's Day etc etc? These are all parts of Irish culture, so if you're telling me that you subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity, then surely you subscribe to these aspects of Irish culture? No? Thought not.

I know plenty of people from Dublin who do none of those things. What the hell are they?

Whether you think partition was right or wrong the reality is it happened and honest republicans will acknowledge it has had an effect on the psyche of people from the north, and people from "opposing" community backgrounds do have a shared identity on some issues which they do not share with people from the rest of Ireland or Britain.

I do not accept this makes them less Irish or British but cultural or national identity isn't limited to GAA/Irish language/marching bands etc.

An oft underreported thing I've come across is many people consider themselves neither Irish nor British but Northern Irish, particularly young people, slightly more common amongst Protestants but certainly not exclusively. The media gives the impression its all or nothing for British/Irish identity but the reality on the ground speaks otherwise, as do official statistics with 25% of people identifying as Northern Irish

Jim236

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I know plenty of people from Dublin who do none of those things. What the hell are they?

What the hell is GAA? Are you serious?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Whether you think partition was right or wrong the reality is it happened and honest republicans will acknowledge it has had an effect on the psyche of people from the north, and people from "opposing" community backgrounds do have a shared identity on some issues which they do not share with people from the rest of Ireland or Britain.

I do not accept this makes them less Irish or British but cultural or national identity isn't limited to GAA/Irish language/marching bands etc.

I don't doubt people from the North and Ulster as a whole identify more with Ulster than the rest of Ireland, but the same can be said for other parts of Ireland as well, it doesn't mean anything.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

An oft underreported thing I've come across is many people consider themselves neither Irish nor British but Northern Irish, particularly young people, slightly more common amongst Protestants but certainly not exclusively. The media gives the impression its all or nothing for British/Irish identity but the reality on the ground speaks otherwise, as do official statistics with 25% of people identifying as Northern Irish

Its just a cop out though, it doesn't actually exist. People just use 'Northern Irish' as a way of avoiding saying they're Irish or British because they want to avoid the tribal politics. People like junder have no desire to have a shared identity that encompasses aspects of Irish culture as well as British culture.

sensibleken

Im a dub that hates GAA and St patricks day. But speak irish and am a trad musician. I guess i must be half Irish.

The OP has a good question. I've met 5 English people this week (which is all the english people ive met this week) who supported a united ireland far more enthusiastically than me. Im pretty sure they wouldnt like to be bombed for it though.

Jim236

sensibleken wrote: »

Im a dub that hates GAA and St patricks day. But speak irish and am a trad musician. I guess i must be half Irish.

Cop on will ya I'm not trying to say being Irish is some exclusive club with certain requirements. The point I'm making is that to subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity would involve accepting certain aspects of Irish culture, such as GAA, as part of that identity. But I doubt very much that that is the type of 'Northern Irish' identity that junder subscribes to. Rather, to him the 'Northern Irish' identity is an Ulster Scots one that doesn't encompass any aspect of Irish culture.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jim236 wrote: »

What the hell is GAA? Are you serious?

No I know what GAA is, I even play it! What I mean is if someone has no interest in these stereotypical irish interests your post suggests they are not Irish.

I don't doubt people from the North and Ulster as a whole identify more with Ulster than the rest of Ireland, but the same can be said for other parts of Ireland as well, it doesn't mean anything.

Its just a cop out though, it doesn't actually exist. People just use 'Northern Irish' as a way of avoiding saying they're Irish or British because they want to avoid the tribal politics. People like junder have no desire to have a shared identity that encompasses aspects of Irish culture as well as British culture.

I can assure you its not a cop out. These are people I know well who know I'm not going to be offended by seeming tribal. People who see a shared identity with Scots/English/Welsh as absurd but don't see the connection with people from the rest of IReland either. I don't think a desire comes into it, its just how people perceive themselves at present.

sensibleken

Jim236 wrote: »

Cop on will ya I'm not trying to say being Irish is some exclusive club with certain requirements. The point I'm making is that to subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity would involve accepting certain aspects of Irish culture, such as GAA, as part of that identity. But I doubt very much that that is the type of 'Northern Irish' identity that junder subscribes to. Rather, to him the 'Northern Irish' identity is an Ulster Scots one that doesn't encompass any aspect of Irish culture.

well since your such a polite young man

Maybe you should leave peoples sense of identity up to themselves rather than dictate it to them. Im sure they know themselves better than you do

junder

Jim236 wrote: »

So do you follow GAA, do you support the Irish language, do you celebrate St. Patrick's Day etc etc? These are all parts of Irish culture, so if you're telling me that you subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity, then surely you subscribe to these aspects of Irish culture? No? Thought not.

See your completely crazy your replying to somebody that does not exist because I didn't exist then there is no way I could have posted anything on this site for you to reply to, see completely crazy........ Unless if course I do actully exist and you are actully replying to somebody who is northern Irish.

Jim236

sensibleken wrote: »

well since your such a polite young man

You got sarky with me, just remember that before you start lecturing anyone on being "polite".

sensibleken wrote: »

Maybe you should leave peoples sense of identity up to themselves rather than dictate it to them. Im sure they know themselves better than you do

I'm not dictating to anyone what identity they should have, but I am questioning junder's definition of what a so called 'Northern Irish' identity encompasses, given his previous posts on this forum, and which I'm perfectly entitled to do.

Jim236

junder wrote: »

See your completely crazy your replying to somebody that does not exist because I didn't exist then there is no way I could have posted anything on this site for you to reply to, see completely crazy........ Unless if course I do actully exist and you are actully replying to somebody who is northern Irish.

Well done, ignore the question...:rolleyes:

sensibleken

Jim236 wrote: »

You got sarky with me, just remember that before you start lecturing anyone on being "polite".



I'm not dictating to anyone what identity they should have, but I am questioning junder's definition of what a so called 'Northern Irish' identity encompasses, given his previous posts on this forum, and which I'm perfectly entitled to do.

well arent we the defensive one

robinph

Jim236 wrote: »

... but I am questioning junder's definition of what a so called 'Northern Irish' identity encompasses...

Maybe it's what it doesn't encompass, such as they are not Irish and not British.

Doesn't mean they have to love GAA and the Queen at the same time though.

Jim236

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No I know what GAA is, I even play it! What I mean is if someone has no interest in these stereotypical irish interests your post suggests they are not Irish.

I don't see whats so stereotypical about them, but they are a major part of Irish culture. But there are many other things which make up Irish culture. My point is and what I'm putting to junder is - does this 'Northern Irish' identity encompass these or any aspect of Irish culture?

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I can assure you its not a cop out. These are people I know well who know I'm not going to be offended by seeming tribal. People who see a shared identity with Scots/English/Welsh as absurd but don't see the connection with people from the rest of IReland either. I don't think a desire comes into it, its just how people perceive themselves at present.

Have you ever asked them why they call themselves Northern Irish and not British or Irish though?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jim236 wrote: »

Cop on will ya I'm not trying to say being Irish is some exclusive club with certain requirements. The point I'm making is that to subscribe to this so called 'Northern Irish' shared identity would involve accepting certain aspects of Irish culture, such as GAA, as part of that identity. But I doubt very much that that is the type of 'Northern Irish' identity that junder subscribes to. Rather, to him the 'Northern Irish' identity is an Ulster Scots one that doesn't encompass any aspect of Irish culture.

Its not really a culture thing so to speak. I agree the notion of shared identity where you'd go to GAA training on a tuesday and band practice on a thursday doesn't exist and most likely never will.

However what I see as the shared identity is that for the last 90 years by sharing the same police force, same government institutions and services, same currency, same radio/tv enertainment, same radio/tv reporting events in the same way, for the older generation they experienced the troubles in a way British and people from the south did not, same budget cuts, same day to day life issues - a shared identity emerges.

Irish language act and Orange order parades may get a lot of media attention but they don't matter a toss to the majority of people on both sides, they simply matter to those who shout the loudest.

Jim236

robinph wrote: »

Maybe it's what it doesn't encompass, such as they are not Irish and not British.

Doesn't mean they have to love GAA and the Queen at the same time though.

I'd love to know what this 'Northern Irish' identity involves then if it has nothing to do with Irish or British culture.

Jim236

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

However what I see as the shared identity is that for the last 90 years by sharing the same police force, same government institutions and services, same currency, same radio/tv enertainment, same radio/tv reporting events in the same way, for the older generation they experienced the troubles in a way British and people from the south did not, same budget cuts, same day to day life issues - a shared identity emerges.

I'm very skeptical about that, particularly given the hostility towards the police force in the North for most of the last 90 years because of how they treated the Nationalist communities. I also don't buy into the argument that coming out of the troubles has brought about a shared identity for both communities, because each community has a very different take on the events of the troubles. Also given that there are now more 'peace walls' than there were 5 years ago, I find it hard to believe there is the kind of trust and common identity you talk about.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Jim236 wrote: »

I don't see whats so stereotypical about them, but they are a major part of Irish culture. But there are many other things which make up Irish culture. My point is and what I'm putting to junder is - does this 'Northern Irish' identity encompass these or any aspect of Irish culture?



Have you ever asked them why they call themselves Northern Irish and not British or Irish though?

Covered the first bit in the previous post. For the second part well one of the guys I lived with said he doesn't in any way feel "British" but at the same time feels he is different to the "Irish" too. Other's have espoused to having their own country rather than be in the UK. I reckon this would be much more common view if NI was self sufficient.

Its not difficult to understand why they would see themselves as Northern Irish by default, all the services they encounter refer to as northern ireland - NI railway, NI water, BBC NI, The state is called northern ireland, though obviously is still under British sovereignty.