Why do some insist Britain is some sort of utopia ?

PatsytheNazi

Now apart form a few leg pullers, it seems to me that some like to think that Britain is some sort of political utopia. Lets look at some factors to begin with -

Economics: This is the 'utopia' that had the IMF in back in the 1970's and is in debt to the tune of 4.8 trillion. It's forecast alone for 2010/2011 is £992 Billion. At least we're trying to fix our problems, the Brits aren't - until they have to call the IMF in again maybe.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336543/Britains-4-8-trillion-debt-Brace-.html

As for the Britain's imagined free 'bailout' to Ireland, it's a loan that has to be paid back in full with interest and as Cameron blatantly pointed out was done in (understandably) in self interest because if Ireland's banks went down the dominio effect could well have bring down the UK's banking system as that 'utopia' is also in a hell of a mess with Nothern Rock, RBS etc

Religion: Well we all know only too well the Catholic church's influence on the 26 counties, but Britain and the unionists in particuliar are in no position to be pointing fingers at us. Britain engineered secterianism on this country, it created the northern statelet. Still today it's head of state cannot be a Catholic or married to one, seats in it's parliament are reserved for the Anglican church, imagine if seats were reserved in the Senate for the Catholic church :rolleyes: . And if people offer the fact that abortion is illegal in the 26 - so it is in the six counties.

International affairs: Well this is the great friend that imposed a secterian apartheid system on the six counties in the northeast and then murdered civil rights marchers, helped the loyalists murder people on both sides of the border etc. It also commited war crimes against Iraq under the pretence of "weapons of mass destruction". Sold weapons to some of the worst regimes in the world included Mugabe, Gaddaffi, Saddam Hussein and the Taliban - but that was when the Taliban were called the Mudjahideen fighting the Soviets

So, why do some insist Britain is some sort of utopia ?

sarumite

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So, why do some insist Britain is some sort of utopia ?

Could you provide some reference points to start with. Who are these "some" yu refer to? Which parts of Britian does this "some" believe is a Utopia? What are this "some"'s arguments supporting the idea that britian is a utopia?

I am pie

This is a pretty risible attempt to drum up an excuse for a spot of brit bashing. Who thinks the UK is Utopia ?

Congratulations, you are on Tom Elliot's level.

Iwasfrozen

Britain is far from a utopia. It's a kip, especially the west (sorry Liverpool).

Your only reference supporting numerous points was a graphic from the Daily Mail.

catbear

Wasn't Cheri Blair Catholic?

spider guardian

Britain's problems are well documented, I doubt many people would consider it a utopia save for the jingoistic types.

meditraitor

Great country, and a better political system to boot

Batsy

I'm glad I live in Britain, especially England. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Sulmac

catbear wrote: »

Wasn't Cheri Blair Catholic?

Head of State = Monarch
Head of Government = Prime Minister

In the UK at least.

R P McMurphy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Britain is far from a utopia. It's a kip, especially the west (sorry Liverpool).

I used to love going out in Liverpool, good nightlife and easy going people. Haven't been there in a few years though

mike65

Strawman thread....

getz

R P McMurphy wrote: »

I used to love going out in Liverpool, good nightlife and easy going people. Haven't been there in a few years though

still nice people, i still visit now and again,to check on my hubcaps,i am a manc

Jim236

I am pie wrote: »

This is a pretty risible attempt to drum up an excuse for a spot of brit bashing. Who thinks the UK is Utopia ?

Congratulations, you are on Tom Elliot's level.

No its not and I'm with Patsy on this one, there are people in the media and posters on this forum who are regularly pushing for Ireland to leave the euro and join the Sterling instead, arguing that our economic situation has more in common with Britain than the rest of Europe which is nonsense, and as if to say Britain is this economic wonderland that could save us.

Both countries are in a recession but thats as far as the similarities go. These same people are also peddling the notion that Ireland should be grateful for the 'aid' Britain 'gave' to Ireland to 'help' us out of our situation. Even British politicians are buying into this crap with Ann Widdecombe on RTÉ's Brendan O'Connor Show the other night saying how "disgraceful it was that Ireland had said so many bad things about Britain for all those years and was now asking for Britain to bail us out". These people are completely deluded. The reality is Ireland didn't ask Britain for anything, and Britain didn't 'give' anything either. It offered a bilateral loan to Ireland which we must pay back, and at a high interest rate of 5%. And the only reason this loan was offered to Ireland was because British banks were exposed to some €100 billion worth of debt in the Irish banking system, and were it to fail, Britain's banking system would've followed suit. Otherwise, Ireland wouldn't have even gotten so much as a 'get well' card.

But thats €3.8 billion. We owe around €60 billion to the rest of Europe from the bailout alone. And there are countries in the eurozone such as Portugal, Spain, and Greece who are in the exact same (not similar) situation as ourselves. So if we were to ever leave the euro, it would make more sense to align ourselves to a common currency with these countries.

I am pie

Jim236 wrote: »

No its not and I'm with Patsy on this one, there are people in the media and posters on this forum who are regularly pushing for Ireland to leave the euro and join the Sterling instead, arguing that our economic situation has more in common with Britain than the rest of Europe which is nonsense, and as if to say Britain is this economic wonderland that could save us.

Both countries are in a recession but thats as far as the similarities go. These same people are also peddling the notion that Ireland should be grateful for the 'aid' Britain 'gave' to Ireland to 'help' us out of our situation. Even British politicians are buying into this crap with Ann Widdecombe on RTÉ's Brendan O'Carroll Show the other night saying how "disgraceful it was that Ireland had said so many bad things about Britain for all those years and was now asking for Britain to bail us out". These people are completely deluded. The reality is Ireland didn't ask Britain for anything, and Britain didn't 'give' anything either. It offered a bilateral loan to Ireland which we must pay back, and at a high interest rate of 5%. And the only reason this loan was offered to Ireland was because British banks were exposed to some €100 billion worth of debt in the Irish banking system, and were it to fail, Britain's banking system would've followed suit. Otherwise, Ireland wouldn't have even gotten so much as a 'get well' card.

But thats €3.8 billion. We owe around €60 billion to the rest of Europe from the bailout alone. And there are countries in the eurozone such as Portugal, Spain, and Greece who are in the exact same (not similar) situation as ourselves. So if we were to ever leave the euro, it would make more sense to align ourselves to a common currency with these countries.

So the gist of waht you're saying is that the British strategically lent us money to prop up their own banks. Well, err..yeah. Who is disputing that ? Why else would they do it ? They didn't pretend it was a gift, they were pretty clear it was in their interests.

Not sure where the rest of your vague points about 'some posters' and the media have come from as (neither of) you have managed to reference anything other than the daily mail (oh sweet irony).

Brit bashing, pure and simple. Good luck, have fun with it. Seems fairly peurile to me but go on, fill yer boots.

PS. I have lived over there. It's definitely not Utopia. Not now, not ever.

Jim236

I am pie wrote: »

So the gist of waht you're saying is that the British strategically lent us money to prop up their own banks. Well, err..yeah. Who is disputing that ? Why else would they do it ? They didn't pretend it was a gift, they were pretty clear it was in their interests.

Read my post again. There are people in the media and on this forum are continually peddling the notion that we should grateful for the aid Britain gave us. That is how some people are trying to portray the bilateral loan from Britain as, and these same people are then arguing we should leave the euro and join the sterling, as if to say the British economy is the solution to all our problems, when in fact its the very opposite.

I am pie wrote: »

Not sure where the rest of your vague points about 'some posters' and the media have come from as (neither of) you have managed to reference anything other than the daily mail (oh sweet irony).

You might want to check the posters in this thread because I haven't made any reference to the Daily Mail.

I am pie wrote: »

Brit bashing, pure and simple. Good luck, have fun with it. Seems fairly peurile to me but go on, fill yer boots.

None of what I have just said is brit-bashing, but if you want to derail this thread so that you can hurl personal insults at people, go right ahead, have fun with it.:)

blackdog2

No, its not utopia, but my experience in London was far better than anywhere I have been to in Ireland.

PatsytheNazi

sarumite wrote: »

Could you provide some reference points to start with. Who are these "some" yu refer to? Which parts of Britian does this "some" believe is a Utopia? What are this "some"'s arguments supporting the idea that britian is a utopia?

I am pie wrote: »

This is a pretty risible attempt to drum up an excuse for a spot of brit bashing. Who thinks the UK is Utopia ?

Congratulations, you are on Tom Elliot's level.

:rolleyes:.... Go through the Sinn Fein and United Ireland threads, Commonwealth threads etc. There peppered with ' Oh, doesn't Britain do everything so well....why did we ever leave...weren't they so nice to give us money for the bailout ' type of posts.

Here's one from the Home Rule is Rome rule thread for example " How many countrys came to our assistance outside of the ECB/IMF loan that we got??? Ill answer that for you, two, Britain and Sweden. WE should be creating a close bond with Britain instead of looking back into History and still having distain for a country that is so so vital to our well being as a country. "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72103072&postcount=5

meditraitor

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Here's one from the Home Rule is Rome rule thread for example " How many countrys came to our assistance outside of the ECB/IMF loan that we got??? Ill answer that for you, two, Britain and Sweden. WE should be creating a close bond with Britain instead of looking back into History and still having distain for a country that is so so vital to our well being as a country. "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72103072&postcount=5

Should we refuse the loan because there Brits?

Jim236

meditraitor wrote: »

Should we refuse the loan because there Brits?

Who is arguing that?! As much as I don't like Ireland having to receive loans from Britain, the issue here is the portrayal of such a loan as a gift from Britain and that Ireland should go further and join the sterling. Sweden and Denmark both gave us a loan as well, so should we join their currencies? No.

PatsytheNazi

Deleted User wrote: »

Your only reference supporting numerous points was a graphic from the Daily Mail.

I'm not ar$ed posting a link regarding every single point made in the OP regarding such as abortion laws in the ROI and NI, arms to Mugabe and co, helping the loyalists to murder people etc If someone is that interested, they can easily find them in Google without me spoon feeding them. And the reason I posted the economic link is to show some around here who seem to think Britain is in some sort of economic heaven that it's far from been the case.

meditraitor

Jim236 wrote: »

Who is arguing that?!

The same person who is arguing britian is a utopia, nobody......... Just thought I'd join in this little brit bashing charade to kill an hour or 2

reprazant

Jim236 wrote: »

Who is arguing that?!

I am confused. The OP seems to arguing that creating a close bond with our closest and largest trading partner is akin to viewing it as some utopia.

Is he arguing that we should not create close bonds with our largest trading partners, especially those that are closest to us, or that we should not be creating a close bond with Britain because it is Britain?

PatsytheNazi

meditraitor wrote: »

Should we refuse the loan because there Brits?

Jim236 wrote: »

Who is arguing that?! As much as I don't like Ireland having to receive loans from Britain, the issue here is the portrayal of such a loan as a gift from Britain and that Ireland should go further and join the sterling. Sweden and Denmark both gave us a loan as well, so should we join their currencies? No.

Exactly Jim. Time and time and time again here on b.ie we have idiots coming on thinking that Britain loaned the money out of the kindness of their hearts :rolleyes: Good point on should we join Sweden and Denmark's currencies as they gave us a loan also.

PatsytheNazi

meditraitor wrote: »

Should we refuse the loan because there Brits?

Good question. No, we should accept or refuse the loan if we think it helps us and cannot get beter somewhere else.

What I am saying though is it's time some people got it out of their mindset that Britain is doing it out of some act of kindness or that the British politics is some sort of benign, benevolent society.

Jim236

reprazant wrote: »

I am confused. The OP seems to arguing that creating a close bond with our closest and largest trading partner is akin to viewing it as some utopia.

Is he arguing that we should not create close bonds with our largest trading partners, especially those that are closest to us, or that we should not be creating a close bond with Britain because it is Britain?

I'm not Patsy's spokesperson, he can speak for himself. I'm just saying I'm against this ignorant and deluded portrayal of the loan from Britain as some sort of gift, and that we should leave the euro and join the sterling, where instead of our economic policy being dictated by Berlin, it would be decided by London, and we'd be no better off.

And if you want a reference to that, look back at one of George Hook's shows on Newstalk a few weeks ago where he talked for an hour about this very issue, where the only speakers he invited on were the very people I'm talking about who are trying to peddle this bullsh*t.

meditraitor wrote: »

The same person who is arguing britian is a utopia, nobody......... Just thought I'd join in this little brit bashing charade to kill an hour or 2

Brit-bashing? lol Thats a laugh. So you don't even need to bash the Brits to be called a Brit-basher now...:rolleyes:

PatsytheNazi

reprazant wrote: »

I am confused. The OP seems to arguing that creating a close bond with our closest and largest trading partner is akin to viewing it as some utopia.

Is he arguing that we should not create close bonds with our largest trading partners, especially those that are closest to us, or that we should not be creating a close bond with Britain because it is Britain?

I don't understand, we're in the EU with them, what more close bonds do you want ? Joining the Commonwealth, having sterling as our currency ?

seamus

Utopia? I doubt anyone considers it that.

However, if you consider that there are roughly 200-odd states in the world, of which I would consider somewhere between 10% and 20% as suitable places to live, taking into account the general standard of living, human rights status, personal freedoms, economic freedoms, etc.
Of those, there are what, ten, maybe, where English is the first or a primary language.
Of those ten-ish, two have populations big enough to be considered essential to our economy (though at 34 million, Canada is not to be sniffed at). And the UK is one of those 2, and arguably the most important given that they are our closest neighbour.

In other words, the country closest to us shares our ideology, our primary language and our core political values.

So while I doubt that anyone considers the UK to be any kind of perfect place, we have far more reasons to be favourable towards the UK than we do to hate them.

I am pie

Jim236 wrote: »

Read my post again. There are people in the media and on this forum are continually peddling the notion that we should grateful for the aid Britain gave us. That is how some people are trying to portray the bilateral loan from Britain as, and these same people are then arguing we should leave the euro and join the sterling, as if to say the British economy is the solution to all our problems, when in fact its the very opposite.



You might want to check the posters in this thread because I haven't made any reference to the Daily Mail.



None of what I have just said is brit-bashing, but if you want to derail this thread so that you can hurl personal insults at people, go right ahead, have fun with it.:)

1. Daily Mail - try readinging the bit where i said either of you.
2. I see you have given up trying to prove that anyone suggested the UK was Utopia
3. How is the UK economy the 'very opposite' to being a solution to our problems. Sure even the most ardent of brit bashers can recognise that we are in a worse position than anyone outside of Greece in Europe.

Still waiting for any evidence of any on this forum claiming the UK is Utopia. All you've offered up is some reference to the fact that people naively thought the UK loan was a selfless act of support for a neighbour in need, or arguing that their economy is a safer bet than a euro centric economy. Far cries from Utopia.

Now, no insults there, nothing other than a request for factual discussion free of peurile polemic.

LordSutch

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Why do some insist Britain is some sort of utopia ?

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Now apart form a few leg pullers, it seems to me that some like to think that Britain is some sort of political utopia. Lets look at some factors to begin with -

Britain is relatively large & diverse island, and yes there are many aspects to Britain & its people that are very attractive, but to say that Britain is some sort of Political Utopia just doesnt add up? Me suspects that Mr Nazi is out for a bit of sport, so don't take the bait

EJLL

Spent yesterday afternoon playing a quality game of football in London against a Leicester side as part of the gay football national league, followed by £1.80 pints of beer in the pub. An afternoon window frame of a utopic society for me.

reprazant

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

I don't understand, we're in the EU with them, what more close bonds do you want ? Joining the Commonwealth, having sterling as our currency ?

Did I advocate this anywhere?

What a pathetic method of argument.

PatsytheNazi

LordSutch wrote: »

Britain is relatively large & diverse island, and yes there are many aspects to Britain & its people that are very attractive, but to say that Britain is some sort of Political Utopia just doesnt add up? Me suspects that Mr Nazi is out for a bit of sport, so don't take the bait

As per my post #18 -

.... Go through the Sinn Fein and United Ireland threads, Commonwealth threads etc. There peppered with ' Oh, doesn't Britain do everything so well....why did we ever leave...weren't they so nice to give us money for the bailout ' type of posts.

Jim236

seamus wrote: »

In other words, the country closest to us shares our ideology, our primary language and our core political values.

Thats complete rubbish, they share none of our nation's ideology. They are a monarchy, we are a republic. We are about as similar in ideology as apples and oranges.

I am pie wrote: »

1. Daily Mail - try readinging the bit where i said either of you.

And why are you including me?

I am pie wrote: »

2. I see you have given up trying to prove that anyone suggested the UK was Utopia

Read my posts again, and when I say my posts, I mean the ones posted by me.

I am pie wrote: »

3. How is the UK economy the 'very opposite' to being a solution to our problems. Sure even the most ardent of brit bashers can recognise that we are in a worse position than anyone outside of Greece in Europe.

Regardless of whether we have the worst economic situation after Greece, how is surrendering our economic decision-making to London going to help that? Its not. Their economic situation isn't that much better than Ireland's and was completely of their own making. So they are by no means the beacon of hope that we should aspire to.

I am pie wrote: »

Still waiting for any evidence of any on this forum claiming the UK is Utopia. All you've offered up is some reference to the fact that people naively thought the UK loan was a selfless act of support for a neighbour in need, or arguing that their economy is a safer bet than a euro centric economy. Far cries from Utopia.

I've made my point, if you're going to ignore it, thats up to you.

I am pie wrote: »

Now, no insults there, nothing other than a request for factual discussion free of peurile polemic.

Calling me a brit-basher when you have absolutely nothing to back that up with, is a personal insult. If you want to engage in that kind of childish and immature debate, fine, go right ahead.

PatsytheNazi

reprazant wrote: »

Did I advocate this anywhere?

What a pathetic method of argument.

I never stated that you advocated joining the Commonwealth or sterling as both statments had a question mark ( ? ) at the end of them. You are the one who posted " Is he arguing that we should not create close bonds with our largest trading partners, " . I merely asked what you had in mind.

So, what arrangments would you like to see to " create close bonds with our largest trading partners, " ?

CrackisWhack

I've been over to Birmingham a few times over the years, and have to say the place is a kip, many parts of it look like they haven't been touched in 40 years

Wolfe Tone

We have long been "closely associated" with Britain, no good has ever come from it...


All this sh!te I hear about us "not being able to run ourselves" is just that, a load of sh!te, the British are hardly shining examples of how a society and a country should be run.

Yahew

EJLL wrote: »

Spent yesterday afternoon playing a quality game of football in London against a Leicester side as part of the gay football national league, followed by £1.80 pints of beer in the pub. An afternoon window frame of a utopic society for me.

Football and beer does sum it up alright.

PatsytheNazi

seamus wrote: »

In other words, the country closest to us shares our ideology, our primary language and our core political values.

So we are as Euro skeptic as Britain ? We share their ideology and political values of for example trying to kid ourselves that we're somehow a world power and go the far side of the world in the shadow of America bombing country's under the guise of weapons of mass destruction ?

getz

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

We have long been "closely associated" with Britain, no good has ever come from it...


All this sh!te I hear about us "not being able to run ourselves" is just that, a load of sh!te, the British are hardly shining examples of how a society and a country should be run.

shock horror, wolf tone is going to enlighten us,

EJLL

Yahew wrote: »

Football and beer does sum it up alright.

My post was morseo a nod to revelling in a more open-minded society that has a 'gay national football league'

Wolfe Tone

EJLL wrote: »

My post was morseo a nod to revelling in a more open-minded society that has a 'gay national football league'

Why on earth would you want a gay league? I mean why cant they play on regular teams?

OS119

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

...kid ourselves that we're somehow a world power and go the far side of the world... ?

i know you're a bit of a clown, but why do you keep bashing on about this 'thinks its a world power' crap.

Britain is a world power.

it has an economy that is rated in the top ten in the world despite having less than 1% of the worlds population.

it is one of 5 states in the world that can place a 100kt nuclear warhead on any grid reference on the face of the earth 40 minutes after its leader decides that is national policy - and one of only two that can do so without exposing its stategic weapons to a counter-strike.

it is one of perhaps 6 states in the world that can deploy and sustain a divisional-sized force to conduct high intensity warfare anywhere in the world - and do it indefinately.

it is one of perhaps 6 states in the world that can conduct full spectrum air attacks from two thousand miles away and do so regardless of an enemy's air defence capability.

sounds quite a lot like a world power to me...

EJLL

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Why on earth would you want a gay league? I mean why cant they play on regular teams?

They do.

PatsytheNazi

OS119 wrote: »

i know you're a bit of a clown, but why do you keep bashing on about this 'thinks its a world power' crap.

Britain is a world power.

it has an economy that is rated in the top ten in the world despite having less than 1% of the worlds population.

Califonia alone has a bigger economy. There's three world powers - America, China and Russia ( albeit a decling one). Britain is in the next league down, along with Japan, Germany, France and emerging ones such as India, Brazil etc

it is one of 5 states in the world that can place a 100kt nuclear warhead on any grid reference on the face of the earth 40 minutes after its leader decides that is national policy - and one of only two that can do so without exposing its stategic weapons to a counter-strike.

it is one of perhaps 6 states in the world that can deploy and sustain a divisional-sized force to conduct high intensity warfare anywhere in the world - and do it indefinately.

it is one of perhaps 6 states in the world that can conduct full spectrum air attacks from two thousand miles away and do so regardless of an enemy's air defence capability.

sounds quite a lot like a world power to me...

So why didn't they declare war on America when they invaded Grenada ? Where was the mighty Falklands force then. Or Libya for Lockerbie or run out of Eygpt during the Suez crisis etc Britain's power in the world goes as far as how useful they are to America - with maybe the exception of two craggy little islands in the South Atlantic or somehwere.

Coillte_Bhoy

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

As per my post #18 -

.... Go through the Sinn Fein and United Ireland threads, Commonwealth threads etc. There peppered with ' Oh, doesn't Britain do everything so well....why did we ever leave...weren't they so nice to give us money for the bailout ' type of posts.

Care to link to any of these posts and where or who refer to briatian as a utopia?

PeterIanStaker

spider guardian wrote: »

Britain's problems are well documented, I doubt many people would consider it a utopia save for the jingoistic types.

The likes of Myers perhaps.

Fratton Fred

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

So we are as Euro skeptic as Britain ? We share their ideology and political values of for example trying to kid ourselves that we're somehow a world power and go the far side of the world in the shadow of America bombing country's under the guise of weapons of mass destruction ?

and finally we get to the real reason for the thread. Poor old Patsy hasn't had a chance to slate britain for a while so he thought he'd come up with a thread all of his own.

The politics mods must be in a good mood, these threads usually get nipped in the bud.

KeithAFC

What is wrong with Britain?

POINTBREAK

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Califonia alone has a bigger economy.

-
Link please.
Because this says different.
And so does this.........
The truth is that California is a complete and total economic disaster area. The state government of California is projected to have a budget deficit of at least 19 billion dollars this year, and next year the budget gap is projected to grow to 37 billion dollars.

PatsytheNazi

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Care to link to any of these posts and where or who refer to briatian as a utopia?

If your that interested, most of them are only a mouse click away as I'm not ar$ed to spoon fed someone who will disregard them anayway.